Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[omgwtfToph]

Brief observation:

If you're at a low %, you should almost never shield vs. Falcon. CC is far superior, particularly since Falcon's nair (and to a lesser extent, bair and side-B) are safe on shield whereas CC grab (or dtilt) destroys it. If you get Falcon's back to the corner, he usually has to do some form of advancing (i.e. CCable) nair to turn things around. CC grab into long combo should be the go-to here.

I wish my set with SS got recorded. CC grab made things sooo much easier.

 

[Druggedfox]

I mean you should pretty much never shield if you're playing really well but that's not the point I guess

Crouch canceling is pretty broken

 

[oukd]

kp if we ever play i'll make sure to stay falco vs you :D lol

 

[Bones0]

What's the best type of bread for Fox's bread and butter combos?

Spoiler

A loaf of Toph.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah sounds good. I will try to rebuild that motivation to play sometime. just not as willing to spend hundreds of hours practicing on matchups that i won't play in tourney like i would in the old days. do any smashers have cars? does anyone nearby actually have a car? if scrapmettle, mahone, or anyone wanted to come to my place to play i would probably be willing to play on a weekday..otherwise iguess i will just wait for those mythical free weekends

 

[KP17]

what is the general consensus on teching fox's shine as falco?

 

[Bones0]

what is the general consensus on teching fox's shine as falco?

It tends to work pretty well in "option select" type defensive situations like Fox hitting you with Dair or hitting your shield with an aerial and is close to you.

I wouldn't try it by the edge too much because you can die, but teching Fox's shine is pretty awesome often if you can because then you don't get tech chased and die.

 

[FourStar]

hey guys what stages are weak fox?

 

[Bones0]

hey guys what stages are weak fox?

It depends a lot on what matchup you are playing and what type of style you have. I used to obsess over stages, but more recently I've just decided not to care. I just pick whatever my instincts/mood dictates, and then focus on playing to the stage as effectively as possible. It doesn't really matter too much outside of top level if you want to pick DL and play campy or pick YS and go in hard. It is much more important that you play properly based on the stage you chose. So don't try to play campy on YS or aggro on DL. I kind of make an exception for FD since the complete lack of platforms can change things a lot even for non-pros, but even so, if you feel like you play fine on FD compared to other stages, don't feel compelled to auto-ban it just because everyone else does.

 

[FourStar]

It depends a lot on what matchup you are playing and what type of style you have. I used to obsess over stages, but more recently I've just decided not to care. I just pick whatever my instincts/mood dictates, and then focus on playing to the stage as effectively as possible. It doesn't really matter too much outside of top level if you want to pick DL and play campy or pick YS and go in hard. It is much more important that you play properly based on the stage you chose. So don't try to play campy on YS or aggro on DL. I kind of make an exception for FD since the complete lack of platforms can change things a lot even for non-pros, but even so, if you feel like you play fine on FD compared to other stages, don't feel compelled to auto-ban it just because everyone else does.

well i want to know pika vs fox mathup well since i am a pika main and i think its hard for fox on FD

 

[Bones0]

Pikachu has one of, if not the best, CGs in the game, so yeah, I would think you should take him to FD. I would ask that sort of stuff on the Pikachu boards though. lol

 

[FourStar]

Pikachu has one of, if not the best, CGs in the game, so yeah, I would think you should take him to FD. I would ask that sort of stuff on the Pikachu boards though. lol

well the pika boards are kinda quiet right now

 

[KP17]

bones you just quoted dr. pp in the falco discussion thread. good work

 

[Bones0]

bones you just quoted dr. pp in the falco discussion thread. good work

I was hoping someone would quote me saying "what awful advice!" and then I could link to the original. lol

 

[omgwtfToph]

A lot of people call me Toph-a-loaf.

Most notably Eggz.

Eggz and a loaf of Toph for a complete and balanced Fox breakfast.

 

[Apasher]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iricyik5wwM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuQ2Dgpiin4 How do I Falco matchup?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Niyq-gra8S4 How do I player skill?

 

[omgwtfToph]

you play like a ***** vs falco. in your mind falco is this wall of utilt and bair and laser and it's obvious you have no idea how to approach. your neutral game seems to involve haphazardly full jumping bairs (even when he's IN FRONT of you) and hoping he'll magically get hit by them. you need to learn how to approach, which involves staying on the ground, shielding->WD OOS vs lasers (even better, powershield), and then either baiting a SH aerial from falco and punishing it, or stuffing falco's laser.

Also your DD game vs falco sucks. Just because he MIGHT laser doesn't mean he IS lasering.

Also you need to kill him when you hit him. Work on improving your tek chase.

Also, from watching the marth match it's obvious you just panic WAY too easily. You keep backing off when it doesn't make sense to back off, just cuz you feel like you need a breather to regroup. If you're gonna play Fox you can't get away with that sort of half-assed mentality. You need to train your focus to stay in the game for much longer.

 

[CyberZixx]

You are giving Marth too much respect, don't let him do you like that, man. You were eating his uptilt, like near the end of the second game Marth was just throwing them out and you did not punish it. Like Toph said, be more aggressive and in Marth's face. He wants you to play scared and in that range. I don't play fox for the record but that is what I seen from a Marth point of view.

 

[omgwtfToph]

You don't necessarily have to be in his face, but if you're not going to go in, then you DO have to at least be ready to react to what Marth does (or might do).

 

[FourStar]

i feel like its hard to camp with fox against like say marth or peach. idk just something i noticed

 

[omgwtfToph]

come over next week fourstar. And remind me to explain to you how camping works lol.

 

[Apasher]

When is the right situation to camp Marth?

 

[omgwtfToph]

Your problem is not that you don't know when to camp, but that you don't know how to camp.

More importantly, though, you also don't know how to fight. I would fix that first.

 

[FourStar]

come over next week fourstar. And remind me to explain to you how camping works lol.

LOL ummmm yea i dont know much... but i can't come over cuz i got finals but like i said im cool after like next week and then you get to see mah pikachu and my ****ty fox

 

[KirbyKaze]

If the Marth is really technically sound and plays super gay then you should respect him. If they're not, then it's less recommended. So basically if you're fighting Jason, Kevin, or other Kevin you should be careful but otherwise they tend to make bad swings in bad places.

 

[bearsfan092]

So lately I've been getting absolutely wrecked by Falco on FD with those lasers stifling my game. If I somehow manage to slip through the lasers, I'm okayish, but my problem is getting in without any platforms to help me out. Any tips? I read Toph's thing about WD OoS, and I'll definitely try that out more next time, but I was wondering if there was anything else that might be helpful.

 

[FourStar]

So lately I've been getting absolutely wrecked by Falco on FD with those lasers stifling my game. If I somehow manage to slip through the lasers, I'm okayish, but my problem is getting in without any platforms to help me out. Any tips? I read Toph's thing about WD OoS, and I'll definitely try that out more next time, but I was wondering if there was anything else that might be helpful.

sheilding and reflecting? and you must be trying to space a lot if falco is nailing you with the lasers

 

[Pengie]

So lately I've been getting absolutely wrecked by Falco on FD with those lasers stifling my game. If I somehow manage to slip through the lasers, I'm okayish, but my problem is getting in without any platforms to help me out. Any tips? I read Toph's thing about WD OoS, and I'll definitely try that out more next time, but I was wondering if there was anything else that might be helpful.

I think that a big thing when it comes to dealing with lasers is not stopping your movement when they hit you; they don't have very much hitstun so if you get hit while trying to PS or something you can dash towards Falco to close the gap between the two of you or you can dash away if he's in range to threaten with an aerial. If you get hit with a laser when you're close to the ground from a jump (either as you're leaving the ground or as you're landing) you can waveland to towards or away from him similarly as well. Doing this in conjunction with Powershield/Regular shield -> WD OoS and jumping over lasers makes his lasers significantly more manageable.

 

[Bones0]

Fun Fact: 90% of Falcos will do an awful approach after realizing you shielded their laser. Just WD back OoS and grab them or jump on top of their landing spot. People really just need to accept that Falco's lasers are really good at low/mid level, and you're going to lose to them until you get really good at PSing and moving in and out of shield in general. It's dumb, but once you get to the point where you can do it, it's just a really solid spacing tool instead of this instantly overwhelming thing.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Man, I wish that kind of stuff worked on Zhu, PP, Mango, etc.\

Oh wait, no I don't.

 

[Bones0]

Man, I wish that kind of stuff worked on Zhu, PP, Mango, etc.\

Oh wait, no I don't.

I wish I could laser into SHFFL approach vs. KirbyKaze, Mew2King, Ice, etc.

Oh wait, no I don't.

 

[4 Aces]

So lately I've been getting absolutely wrecked by Falco on FD with those lasers stifling my game. If I somehow manage to slip through the lasers, I'm okayish, but my problem is getting in without any platforms to help me out. Any tips? I read Toph's thing about WD OoS, and I'll definitely try that out more next time, but I was wondering if there was anything else that might be helpful.

If they like to shoot really low lasers, you can actually short hop (and fast fall) over them.

Mostly though, shield, wd oos, maybe full jump nair (imo not the best but works to a degree).

Whoops, double post.

1) I went to a tourney yesterday, with this combo in mind: Grab --> Upthrow onto side platform. Then, if I predict that they won't tech, then full jump uair --> upsmash/follow-up, or full jump drill reset into grab or whatever. If I predict that they DO tech, then full jump bair, OR full jump waveland and try to get a regrab.

I want to know if there are ways that the opponent can get around the waveland --> regrab? I know not everything in this game is guaranteed, but I wanna know if this really works or not. Especially because of this:

Later in the day, I noticed that it didn't matter what I did -- I would grab --> upthrow --> then immediately uair. If it connects due to missed tech, then cool. But if it didn't and I whiffed my uair, it doesn't matter, because I'd just regrab them before they did anything. And the best part was that I was doing this on everyone. Sheik, Marth, Fox, Falco, Peach, etc. That's why I'm a little skeptical on whether or not this works, because especially Fox/Falco, I'm pretty sure those two can shine and prevent my regrab. I was wondering if other characters can do something to get away from this.

Also, after upthrow onto side platform/top platform, can you wait and see if they tech first before following up with upair (missed tech)/bair (tech'd)? Or is it something you have to predict/read?

So far, this strat has been working beautifully, but I wanna know if it's just them messing up, or if it actually works.
__________________

2) Is it possible to Waveshine --> Upsmash Marth? Or would they be too far? I think I did it, but only once in training mode, but maybe I have to do it really fast? Do I just have to be really close with the shine to connect upsmash? Also, if they smash DI to the right, is upsmash connecting possible?

3) I've been doing a lot of drillkicks straight into a grab, because sometimes they're too far for the shine to connect/I still suck at turnaround uptilt. This seems to work well, but I'm not convinced it's 100% guaranteed. What are the counterplays to this? I want to know so I can train myself to mix it up, before it becomes too big of a habit.

4) For shield pressuring (nair --> shine --> etc.), can you hit confirm these, or do you just read? Because lately, I find that I can't actually *see* which is happening first (hit on shield/hit on body), before following up, I kinda just have to guess. So I don't really know when to continue nair shine/bair shine/whatever on shields or when to waveshine into a follow-up if I do actually hit their bodies.

Any advice on any of this?

 

[Niko_K]

The last thing I would recommend is SHFF over short lasers you'll operate in less frames if you use the Shield/Powershield -> WD OOS method of spacing yourself away from the potential setups these lasers create.

Full jump nair should only be used methodologically if there's no reason to approach with FHNair you can typically force the Falco to change their laser game and allow yourself to shield their lasers and get into range during the time their next jump animation is in play for their next laser. Typically they've already inputted the action and if you're approaching with shield typically you'll be at an advantage in regards to frames. If the FH Nair is chosen try and ensure you use the light knockback hitbox of the nair and employ FF+L Cancel as close to the hitbox frames as possible and follow into frame appropriate options.

Personally if I can spare myself even considering lasers in regards to the chronological nature of the matchup you allocate more mental activity towards using positioning and spacing to bait the Falco out of lasering entirely or intimidate the Falco into retreating lasers to bring the match to the edge.

Ultimately depends on who is behind the Falco.

 

[omgwtfToph]

oo good questions 4 aces

1. Yeah uthrow onto side platform -> immediate FJ uair is really really good. Tech in place -> buffer evasive action (or shine) both beat it, but 95% of the time, people either miss the tech or are holding a direction so they tech to the side. I don't think it's possible to visually confirm a tech in place and then FJ uair, but it might just be difficult. Generally when I tech chase from ground to platforms (i.e. using aerials) I'm predicting + covering options, which is what you're doing.

2. Waveshine -> usmash Marth works. You just have to be decently fast. If you're moving forward, you can even walk into the usmash. I usually dash after the waveshine though.

3. Drillgrab works, period. It is also categorically better than drillshine a lot of the time. Don't stop doing it.

4. Yes, Fox's shield pressure is unfortunately nigh impossible to hit-confirm purely on reaction. You need to have a "feel" of when they're going to a) do something OOS or b) get shield poked; this depends on what their character is and what people are likely to do out of shield. For example, after SH non-FF drills on peoples' shields, they often try to do something OOS and your shine after the drill will hit. So when I do this, I ready myself to follow up the shine. Another example is doubleshining people who you think are going to try to act after your shine on their shield. I "hit-confirmed" a doubleshine into waveshine usmash on a good Falcon around here yesterday because I thought he was going to either try to roll or WD after my first shine; I was correct. But it wasn't a "pure" hit-confirm because I already had a pretty good idea in my head that the shine was going to hit.

Anyway, something like 80% of successful shield pressure is knowing how to hit your opponent when they decide to stop being in their shield. Which is why Westballz shield pressure works as well as it does.

Does all of that make sense?

 

[Niko_K]

1. Though I agree with toph that uair is an excellent option I find that waiting to see if they tech or not on the platform is the more reliable option. A missed tech will guarantee a drill reset which you can then get a free grab/tilt/usmash out of and is easier than FJ Uair.

2. Walking after the shine is guaranteed provided their SDI isn't perfect though I usually just dash as well so it just depends on your opponent.

3. Agreed. Put it in a list of options and try and define situations in which each option should be chosen in combination with the randomization of your responses.

 

[Cactuar]

Drill reset is a noobstomp tech and will not work more than 5% of the time vs better players. I admittedly get into the habit of going for the drill reset, and it leads to be flubbing multiple punishments in tournament settings before I correct myself. Uair is far better, with waveland->other options and various bair manipulations coming after. I highly recommend breaking the habit of using it.

 

[Niko_K]

Exactly why I started posting what I feel I what do in this thread. Thanks for the advice braski. I'll apply that at this weekends Toryuken 2. Though I typically do go for the uair I always am looking for that opportunity for reset as well and perhaps I should review how that habit is effecting my overall efficacy.

 

[Druggedfox]

There's a hit confirmable shield pressure with fox, actually. It's called grabbing >_>

 

[omgwtfToph]

Drill reset is a noobstomp tech and will not work more than 5% of the time vs better players. I admittedly get into the habit of going for the drill reset, and it leads to be flubbing multiple punishments in tournament settings before I correct myself. Uair is far better, with waveland->other options and various bair manipulations coming after. I highly recommend breaking the habit of using it.

I actually think drill reset is a really good combo option (vs. most players) when used after things that AREN'T uthrow. Particularly when they land toward the middle of the platform. Mostly because I guess people aren't mentally prepped to DI off the platform and escape (or mash getup attack). Granted, uair is still good in these situations.

 

[4 Aces]

oo good questions 4 aces

1. Yeah uthrow onto side platform -> immediate FJ uair is really really good. Tech in place -> buffer evasive action (or shine) both beat it, but 95% of the time, people either miss the tech or are holding a direction so they tech to the side. I don't think it's possible to visually confirm a tech in place and then FJ uair, but it might just be difficult. Generally when I tech chase from ground to platforms (i.e. using aerials) I'm predicting + covering options, which is what you're doing.

2. Waveshine -> usmash Marth works. You just have to be decently fast. If you're moving forward, you can even walk into the usmash. I usually dash after the waveshine though.

3. Drillgrab works, period. It is also categorically better than drillshine a lot of the time. Don't stop doing it.

4. Yes, Fox's shield pressure is unfortunately nigh impossible to hit-confirm purely on reaction. You need to have a "feel" of when they're going to a) do something OOS or b) get shield poked; this depends on what their character is and what people are likely to do out of shield. For example, after SH non-FF drills on peoples' shields, they often try to do something OOS and your shine after the drill will hit. So when I do this, I ready myself to follow up the shine. Another example is doubleshining people who you think are going to try to act after your shine on their shield. I "hit-confirmed" a doubleshine into waveshine usmash on a good Falcon around here yesterday because I thought he was going to either try to roll or WD after my first shine; I was correct. But it wasn't a "pure" hit-confirm because I already had a pretty good idea in my head that the shine was going to hit.

Anyway, something like 80% of successful shield pressure is knowing how to hit your opponent when they decide to stop being in their shield. Which is why Westballz shield pressure works as well as it does.

Does all of that make sense?

Yes, quite so. Thank you very much.

Kind of a basic question, but I always feel the need to reassure myself of these kinds of things:
How do SH non-FF aerials work on shields? Or even, how do any (non-delayed) SHFFL (with fastfall) work on shields? Can you avoid shieldgrabs altogether if you go immediately into a shine afterwards?

I've always figured that you will get shieldgrabbed if you early (or I suppose, normal) shffl aerial into a shield. Or something...Idk, I heard/read it somewhere, and whenever I early nair --> shine, I get grabbed before shine comes out, assuming my opponent was expecting it. Unwary opponents will get shined when they try to drop their shield. Perhaps I'm slow... lol

Edit: Looking at scotu's thread on shield pressure data, it does look it (that you can get grabbed after early aerial on shield), though it does seem a bit incomplete; nothing on nair in the shield pressure techniques section, outside of the initial note on nair at the top of the thread (well, perhaps that's all you really need).

1. Though I agree with toph that uair is an excellent option I find that waiting to see if they tech or not on the platform is the more reliable option. A missed tech will guarantee a drill reset which you can then get a free grab/tilt/usmash out of and is easier than FJ Uair.

2. Walking after the shine is guaranteed provided their SDI isn't perfect though I usually just dash as well so it just depends on your opponent.

3. Agreed. Put it in a list of options and try and define situations in which each option should be chosen in combination with the randomization of your responses.

Thanks, I will keep these things in mind. I've been practicing in training mode vs. Starman'd opponents, but the timing still feels a bit off whenever I try it in a match. Idk, I think I need to confirm better when I connect an aerial with a shield. That should be pretty manageable with a little more practice.