man, you guys really hate me, don't you?
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
man, you guys really hate me, don't you?
4 Aces
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2007
- Messages
- 892
Which set do you want critique on? What minutes? There are a lot of dead minutes...on top of it being a 4-hour vid, with my connection being laggy, and you guys changing players, characters, turning on cpu, etc...it's nearly impossible for me to watch this right now. :/
I gave the best timestamp possible. Any of the matches vs Oksas's Falcon would be the bet to critique. Try to pick out a game or twobwhere he does notably better than other games, either by my playing badly, or his playing better. Greatly appreciated. :D
@Other Foxes: Vs Falcon, I feel like I should be able to challenge and beat Falcon's retreating stomp. I trade a lot with it, but I still feel like if I time it right, I should be able to beat it. Is this a thing? Or should I just work on respecting it/waiting it out?
@Other Foxes: Vs Falcon, I feel like I should be able to challenge and beat Falcon's retreating stomp. I trade a lot with it, but I still feel like if I time it right, I should be able to beat it. Is this a thing? Or should I just work on respecting it/waiting it out?
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Well PewPewU and Dajuan didn't go, and Zhu didn't enter. But there were a lot of pretty good players there. I beat Bizarro Flame, Silentspectre, SFAT and then Hyprid (in WFs). But then Hyprid made it to GFs and 6-1'd me.
I really thought I was going to be able to take it all but Hyprid was on some other **** or something. And after playing like a champ all day my mentality finally started crumbling. I gotta really work on that.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
fox juice running on low is the worst worst worst feeling ever. 3-0 everyone in winners then lose in grands to the person u just 3-0'd.... every tournament.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
It honestly a hurts deep down when I hear about people beating SS or Darkrain who are both mere shadows of their former selves. But I imagine placing that high in NorCal is exciting as hell and is indeed a small bragging right. I get 3rd at scrub fests.
How is SS doing though? I'd like to know haha
How is SS doing though? I'd like to know haha
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
He's fine, him and Tang made it to teams GF in winners lol.
ElloEddy
Smash Journeyman
yeah he can ...but single laser is faster and more control so you wont see him DL much in tourney
Crazy good wins you got under your belt. Also, wtf I knew hyprid was good, but what im hearing almost seems ridiculous o-O. Damn, good **** to both of you though, you especially for beating SFAT, cuz that dude is amazing.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Yeah absolutely. Are you in the norcal melee facebook group? Also, add me on facebook, I'm Kris Aldenderfer
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
The fact that I didn't catch this, as much as I love this show, disheartens me. >_>
So basically, it never combos her if she's smart. Ok. Thanks.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
*reads movements*
Alright so i just joined the melee group and added you on facebook. im still pretty new to smash so its kinda hard finding people to help me
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
you're lucky as **** you live in NorCal though lol.
Yeah i know hahaha but the problem is i can never find anyone i know that likes smash enough to play with. they always like other fighting games or ****ing call of booty.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Beating Zac in Fox dittos is pretty cool.
unknown522
Some guy
there's nothing to critique on. The games aren't even close at least
Coffeeblack
Smash Journeyman
toph we gotta play when you come to toronto
ugh, played with gg7 and kyle but i didnt have my laptop.
GG7, we went pretty even.
Kyle, I took the first few games, but then I started losing. cant keep the foxjuice running long enough than maybe 10 games or so.
GG7, we went pretty even.
Kyle, I took the first few games, but then I started losing. cant keep the foxjuice running long enough than maybe 10 games or so.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Maybe you should focus on doing good things rather than hard things.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
word son
This brings to mind a quote.
"I fear not the man who has practiced 10000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10000 times." - Bruce Lee
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Jman things.
Is it weird that I find the simple stuff harder than the super technical stuff?
I have a hard time getting consistent late nairs, good drills, shl then like, shield dropping, shine grabs, shdl, any of the 4 illusion cancels, etc.
Sent from my Event using Tapatalk 2
I have a hard time getting consistent late nairs, good drills, shl then like, shield dropping, shine grabs, shdl, any of the 4 illusion cancels, etc.
Sent from my Event using Tapatalk 2
Bones0
Smash Legend
There's only 3 Illusion cancels.
_wzrd
Smash Journeyman
well a lotta foxs technical stuff you can do just by learning the input as fast as possible since fox is so crazy.
things like getting illusion cancels/shinegrabs/late nair->action rely a little more on learning the timings since you cant just do the input as fast as possible. imo it's really beneficial to just practice one thing at a time for a few minutes to 10/15 mins if you aren't already.
BTmoney
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In all seriousness, how do you uthrow->uair?
On no DI I use the control stick to jump but I have a hard time getting the uair to connect at high percent vs hard DI away (specifically in cases when it does true combo). Do you dash in the direction of the DI on reaction, preferred jumping method etc.?
It's small reasons like these why I don't play fox lol
On no DI I use the control stick to jump but I have a hard time getting the uair to connect at high percent vs hard DI away (specifically in cases when it does true combo). Do you dash in the direction of the DI on reaction, preferred jumping method etc.?
It's small reasons like these why I don't play fox lol
4 Aces
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2007
- Messages
- 892
Ewww...yeah, when they DI forward or backwards at high percents, it definitely makes it harder. I can't quite say how I do it....like, I just do. And sometimes it hits, other times I feel like it's impossible. Idk. I've seen people do it, so I'm sure it's possible -- to some degree.
I guess if it's a hard DI forward, then dash --> Full jump --> Double jump -->Uair. Again, I don't think the full jump has to be at max height before converting to a double jump. Just do a full jump and at some height change to double jump --> uair. That, or max full jump --> immediate double jump --> uair.
*Keep in mind though, if they're too high of a percent, I don't think it matters what you try or how they DI -- you're not getting a combo.*
If it's a soft DI forward...this kinda annoys me more, because I always feel that a dash --> some combination of jumps ---> uair will only hit with the first, not the second. And so this is the one where you just hard full jump holding forward -- > double jump forward --> uair.
Backwards is more or less the same thing I just told you. But harder, in my opinion. Because of turn-around frames throwing timing off, and being a tad slower.
Also, if it helps any, keep this in mind when going from up-throw to uair: Depending on how heavy a character is, the timing to jump after the throw is different. For example Jigglypuff, you can immediately jump after you see Fox's arm above his head, because she's so damn light. That's pretty much how you jump --> double jump --> uair Jiggly. Most people wait too long and that's why they always feel so off or slow. But for characters that are heavier, like Ganondorf, the timing is a decent bit later.
Alternatively, I suppose you can try backthrow --> dash --> nair --> upsmash. Idk how well this works, but it kinda can work at late percentages. I've seen it done on Marths. And I think Peach too.
If you would like to have a look at the frame data on upthrow
4 Aces
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2007
- Messages
- 892
Whoops, double post.
1) I went to a tourney yesterday, with this combo in mind: Grab --> Upthrow onto side platform. Then, if I predict that they won't tech, then full jump uair --> upsmash/follow-up, or full jump drill reset into grab or whatever. If I predict that they DO tech, then full jump bair, OR full jump waveland and try to get a regrab.
I want to know if there are ways that the opponent can get around the waveland --> regrab? I know not everything in this game is guaranteed, but I wanna know if this really works or not. Especially because of this:
Later in the day, I noticed that it didn't matter what I did -- I would grab --> upthrow --> then immediately uair. If it connects due to missed tech, then cool. But if it didn't and I whiffed my uair, it doesn't matter, because I'd just regrab them before they did anything. And the best part was that I was doing this on everyone. Sheik, Marth, Fox, Falco, Peach, etc. That's why I'm a little skeptical on whether or not this works, because especially Fox/Falco, I'm pretty sure those two can shine and prevent my regrab. I was wondering if other characters can do something to get away from this.
Also, after upthrow onto side platform/top platform, can you wait and see if they tech first before following up with upair (missed tech)/bair (tech'd)? Or is it something you have to predict/read?
So far, this strat has been working beautifully, but I wanna know if it's just them messing up, or if it actually works.
__________________
2) Is it possible to Waveshine --> Upsmash Marth? Or would they be too far? I think I did it, but only once in training mode, but maybe I have to do it really fast? Do I just have to be really close with the shine to connect upsmash? Also, if they smash DI to the right, is upsmash connecting possible?
3) I've been doing a lot of drillkicks straight into a grab, because sometimes they're too far for the shine to connect/I still suck at turnaround uptilt. This seems to work well, but I'm not convinced it's 100% guaranteed. What are the counterplays to this? I want to know so I can train myself to mix it up, before it becomes too big of a habit.
4) For shield pressuring (nair --> shine --> etc.), can you hit confirm these, or do you just read? Because lately, I find that I can't actually *see* which is happening first (hit on shield/hit on body), before following up, I kinda just have to guess. So I don't really know when to continue nair shine/bair shine/whatever on shields or when to waveshine into a follow-up if I do actually hit their bodies.
1) I went to a tourney yesterday, with this combo in mind: Grab --> Upthrow onto side platform. Then, if I predict that they won't tech, then full jump uair --> upsmash/follow-up, or full jump drill reset into grab or whatever. If I predict that they DO tech, then full jump bair, OR full jump waveland and try to get a regrab.
I want to know if there are ways that the opponent can get around the waveland --> regrab? I know not everything in this game is guaranteed, but I wanna know if this really works or not. Especially because of this:
Later in the day, I noticed that it didn't matter what I did -- I would grab --> upthrow --> then immediately uair. If it connects due to missed tech, then cool. But if it didn't and I whiffed my uair, it doesn't matter, because I'd just regrab them before they did anything. And the best part was that I was doing this on everyone. Sheik, Marth, Fox, Falco, Peach, etc. That's why I'm a little skeptical on whether or not this works, because especially Fox/Falco, I'm pretty sure those two can shine and prevent my regrab. I was wondering if other characters can do something to get away from this.
Also, after upthrow onto side platform/top platform, can you wait and see if they tech first before following up with upair (missed tech)/bair (tech'd)? Or is it something you have to predict/read?
So far, this strat has been working beautifully, but I wanna know if it's just them messing up, or if it actually works.
__________________
2) Is it possible to Waveshine --> Upsmash Marth? Or would they be too far? I think I did it, but only once in training mode, but maybe I have to do it really fast? Do I just have to be really close with the shine to connect upsmash? Also, if they smash DI to the right, is upsmash connecting possible?
3) I've been doing a lot of drillkicks straight into a grab, because sometimes they're too far for the shine to connect/I still suck at turnaround uptilt. This seems to work well, but I'm not convinced it's 100% guaranteed. What are the counterplays to this? I want to know so I can train myself to mix it up, before it becomes too big of a habit.
4) For shield pressuring (nair --> shine --> etc.), can you hit confirm these, or do you just read? Because lately, I find that I can't actually *see* which is happening first (hit on shield/hit on body), before following up, I kinda just have to guess. So I don't really know when to continue nair shine/bair shine/whatever on shields or when to waveshine into a follow-up if I do actually hit their bodies.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
if fox has momentum from a full run and cancels into crouch into shine the residual momentum carries him extra far making it easy to hit upsmash. Also today I was hit because if they shine you at the exactly right spot near the ledge they may upsmash and catch you before you fall to the ledge I think. Otherwise assuming they don't DI in I think they won't get hit by upsmash.
drillkicks into grab are fine if they don't have a shine. they can spotdodge, roll, not sure what else though. Now i'm curious if marth can get his upb out before the grab..though i probably wouldn't risk it.
anyway some techie will probably come in and explain what shine combos into better..but that's just my gut feel based on what players in our region can get off on me. and yes you can hit confirm your moves and know whether you hit a body or shield, obviously you lose some time though by choosing to react
drillkicks into grab are fine if they don't have a shine. they can spotdodge, roll, not sure what else though. Now i'm curious if marth can get his upb out before the grab..though i probably wouldn't risk it.
anyway some techie will probably come in and explain what shine combos into better..but that's just my gut feel based on what players in our region can get off on me. and yes you can hit confirm your moves and know whether you hit a body or shield, obviously you lose some time though by choosing to react
Josh, I'm living at your house this Summer lol, let's get me ready for Evo. Fox is ready to go
Fox is ready to go
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Late nairs and good drills are situationally dependent; shield drop input and illusion cancel lengths are unchanging and therefore practicable. SHDL and shine grabs aren't hard.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
probably too crowded to live here but definitely stay over on weekends often. I kind of want to play more, but I'm not willing to be the one traveling to other people's house to play these days. Too freaking tired after work. If anyone want to play smash with me they will have to come to my apt. or wait till a weekend when i'm free.
but yeah, I really want to play you. Lately i've been feeling like practicing vs anything but fox and falco is a waste. yesterday I went and played wenbo, but what's the point of practicing vs falcon if wenbo doesn't even ever use falcon in tourney and no one else in the region does either. Ditto for marth. Reality is I will go to tourney and my opponents will all be spacies.
Not really sure why i've lost so much motivation to play, but I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that when I play people these days everyone switches characters every 3-4 matches, so it doesn't feel like good practice. I understand too, because i like the variety and want to switch too (At some point around the two year mark I started having those desires to switch that plague people that have been playing this game too long), but later on i look back on the week and realize that i improved less in that 6 hr practice session than I did in 2 hrs with mahone back when we used to play a single matchup for endless hours. I guess I could understand if they were so much better than me that they were bored, but the problem is people try to switch chars to get around their weaknesses in a matchup, attempting to gimmick their way to a win using tricks instead of playing the char long enough to just be more solid at the matchup.
the other big thing is I played this game for the tourney scene but mahone doesn't want to enter tourneys anymore. I feel like my practice sessions with him these days don't have a purpose because he isn't going to enter, so I don't get the joy of seeing our practice go to good use. I on the other hand just end up practicing against his marth for endless hours, 4 stocking all the marths i play in friendlies, and then never getting to use it during tourneys.
also, no one actually wants to play fox vs peach or falco vs peach for more than ten minutes. I have heard more johning about peach's dsmash since I started maining peach than all the johning I heard in the prior 4 years of playing smash. Basically I can't have real matches in which I play peach. Everyone I play ends up making tech skill johns and switching to some random secondary within 3 matches because they ate dsmash and figured their tech skill was off.
So I end up having to sandbag 2/4 stocks so they can win and be happy if I want to practice my peach.
and I'm totally fine with you learning other matchups too, just pick a particular day to practice a particular char vs my peach or marth. I also still play falco if anyone is interested in that kind of practice. But I'm tired of spending time in which I don't learn anything about the game
but yeah, I really want to play you. Lately i've been feeling like practicing vs anything but fox and falco is a waste. yesterday I went and played wenbo, but what's the point of practicing vs falcon if wenbo doesn't even ever use falcon in tourney and no one else in the region does either. Ditto for marth. Reality is I will go to tourney and my opponents will all be spacies.
Not really sure why i've lost so much motivation to play, but I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that when I play people these days everyone switches characters every 3-4 matches, so it doesn't feel like good practice. I understand too, because i like the variety and want to switch too (At some point around the two year mark I started having those desires to switch that plague people that have been playing this game too long), but later on i look back on the week and realize that i improved less in that 6 hr practice session than I did in 2 hrs with mahone back when we used to play a single matchup for endless hours. I guess I could understand if they were so much better than me that they were bored, but the problem is people try to switch chars to get around their weaknesses in a matchup, attempting to gimmick their way to a win using tricks instead of playing the char long enough to just be more solid at the matchup.
the other big thing is I played this game for the tourney scene but mahone doesn't want to enter tourneys anymore. I feel like my practice sessions with him these days don't have a purpose because he isn't going to enter, so I don't get the joy of seeing our practice go to good use. I on the other hand just end up practicing against his marth for endless hours, 4 stocking all the marths i play in friendlies, and then never getting to use it during tourneys.
also, no one actually wants to play fox vs peach or falco vs peach for more than ten minutes. I have heard more johning about peach's dsmash since I started maining peach than all the johning I heard in the prior 4 years of playing smash. Basically I can't have real matches in which I play peach. Everyone I play ends up making tech skill johns and switching to some random secondary within 3 matches because they ate dsmash and figured their tech skill was off.
So I end up having to sandbag 2/4 stocks so they can win and be happy if I want to practice my peach.
and I'm totally fine with you learning other matchups too, just pick a particular day to practice a particular char vs my peach or marth. I also still play falco if anyone is interested in that kind of practice. But I'm tired of spending time in which I don't learn anything about the game
I could fox a peach for hours.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
why is it so much more intimidating when you use the word "fox" as a verb??
lol, but yeah, i'm just frustrated cause no one likes playing spacies vs peach for a few minutes except the really really high level players that you rarely get a chance to play.
I actually don't fully understand my feelings, but my desire to play melee has been steadily dropping cause i can't feel competitive when I don't play enough matches to learn or even get the matchup experiences that i need.
i guess i'm not used to the peach johns cause i played marth before and few players seemed to john vs me. I get the feeling that they think that those 7-hit combos into spike are somehow harder to do than hitting them with dsmashes. And of course they are right...if they make mistakes. if they are playing well, it's really far harder to get a clean dsmash on the opponent. Harder than it is for marth to get a grab at least.
lol, but yeah, i'm just frustrated cause no one likes playing spacies vs peach for a few minutes except the really really high level players that you rarely get a chance to play.
I actually don't fully understand my feelings, but my desire to play melee has been steadily dropping cause i can't feel competitive when I don't play enough matches to learn or even get the matchup experiences that i need.
i guess i'm not used to the peach johns cause i played marth before and few players seemed to john vs me. I get the feeling that they think that those 7-hit combos into spike are somehow harder to do than hitting them with dsmashes. And of course they are right...if they make mistakes. if they are playing well, it's really far harder to get a clean dsmash on the opponent. Harder than it is for marth to get a grab at least.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Everyone in MD/VA are *****es, KP. I will play you and get dsmashed a million times, and the only thing you will have to get used to is me criticizing myself nonstop. lol