Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Silent Wolf]

Shine is a slow cop out lol. That's why I hooked up the homie, cuz he didn't consider copping out lol

 

[Ijuka]

Shine is a slow cop out lol. That's why I hooked up the homie, cuz he didn't consider copping out lol

Even you didn't waveland off ledges with good angles / frameperfectly consistently though, and you're considered perhaps the best Fox at tech skill, which means that you are currently pretty much the best case scenario for this technique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl5BtiphgEw

This is your own video, the first one I found. Right at the start you do a poorly angled waveland(with a shine you get proper one really easily -> it would have been beneficial here. Note, if you intentionally angled it like that but can do a long one as well when needed, ignore this point, I'm underestimating you. Most players still can't do that.), and right after you failed a waveland with a jump - something that often happens to me as well. After that you failed it again with a jump. Even if you were to say that you just weren't playing too well there, I'm going to argue that with shine it's so easy you get it even when you aren't at your best.

You can "slide" the shine there so that it's just a few frames. It barely makes it slower.


Calling it a cop out is pretty stupid.

 

[Divinokage]

Double Fox ftw.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I guess it depends on how important you think those 4 frames are (from when you shine to when you can jump cancel it).

For ledgedashing, those 4 frames seem really important (it's probably a couple more since you'd drop lower from shining before jumping back up, isn't it?)

 

[unknown522]

Double Fox ftw.

Dawwwwwww

 

[Silent Wolf]

I'm in between methods of doing it so I often revert back to my old inconsistent way. I also only recently found out you can't hold a direction when u grab. Its also not something I've practiced outside of matches until recently.

The shine is a cop out. Its settling for a slower ledge dash that's easier.

 

[Engo]

@the fox pic: That's Unknown and Silent Wolf.

 

[Ijuka]

Meh, okay. My opinion is that if you can ledgewavedash without it, do so. But if you can't, there's usually more important things to learn.


I feel a bit dumb but I just found out that Fox vs ICs, you can shine -> jc Illusion and you'll be at a perfect combo distance. At around 45% you can combo with an aerial. At 80% you can shine -> illusion -> uair for a free kill. Comboes in training mode, not sure about DI but Fox should be able to follow everything and you have forever and a half to react. 0% might be slightly unsafe but you can CC fastfall dair or whatever if you can't shield in time and you're in a perfect position to utilt.

Against Luigi you can shine -> jc illusion as well. He's too floaty to combo but it's safe even at 0% and your position will be good. After 70% he's at a perfect uair height and will die if you land one, though it won't combo.

 

[rjgbadger]

thanks for the help silentwolf

i knew about the direction ledge grab deal

my problem, based on what a see fox doing, seems to be that i dont jump immediately after letting go of the ledge, or that my wd isnt horizontal enough

@bones

i perform it the same way i do the shinedash on stage, but without B

so let go by pressing down/away, jumping with Y, then wavedashing, while all carefully disecting each individual direction on the stick(no rolling the stick)

also @ijuka doing it with the shine IS a cop-out in this situation. its saying 'i can't do it without the shine, so i'll always shine to set up wavedash on stage' and i'm not comfortable ever doing something like that when practice makes perfect(although i've gone like 20 10 min sessions of ONLY practicing this, with like a 25% success, compared to like 85% with shine)

but i always end up either sd'ing or having a really dirty looking wavedash

shining first allows my jump to be almost as immediate but very close to the ledge still

 

[Ijuka]

You can try fake practicing it by doing backward waveshines without turning around, frameperfect or only 1 frame late(with both leaving the shine and airdodging), and going max distance. Motion should be around the same.

The problem is that even though I get the ledgewavedash almost all the time in practice, in an actual game when I need to instantly do it right after grabbing the ledge it just isn't consistent, and I have far more important things to practice(JC shine infinites on captain falcon, sheik and such, walk shine infinites on peach, waveshine out of shield, shielddrop fastfall bair/nair shine) than spending a long, LONG time on frame-perfecting a move and making it a reflex just to save myself a few frames that most likely won't even make a difference in more than 1 out of 100 cases. It's a niche technique for just a single situation, as well.

It's up to you what to do but it'll be against my recommendations.

 

[Ijuka]

You can try fake practicing it by doing backward waveshines without turning around, frameperfect or only 1 frame late(with both leaving the shine and airdodging), and going max distance. Motion should be around the same.

The problem is that even though I get the ledgewavedash almost all the time in practice, in an actual game when I need to instantly do it right after grabbing the ledge it just isn't consistent, and I have far more important things to practice(JC shine infinites on captain falcon, sheik and such, walk shine infinites on peach, waveshine out of shield, shielddrop fastfall bair/nair shine) than spending a long, LONG time on frame-perfecting a move and making it a reflex just to save myself a few frames that most likely won't even make a difference in more than 1 out of 100 cases. It's a niche technique for just a single situation, as well.

It's up to you what to do but it'll be against my recommendations.

Also give a try to shineturning and wavelanding into a grab, it's far flashier than shineless waveland when it works and is actually useful. And it's easier to do than a shineless waveland as well.


Oh by the way, as you can release with the c-stick try if you can slide your finger fast enough from it to your jump button.

 

[unknown522]

If I can find an instrumental only of this song I want to use this in my next combo vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flBCF10wKkY

 

[Voltz]

If I can find an instrumental only of this song I want to use this in my next combo vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flBCF10wKkY

Lol "Can't Beat Airman."

 

[Bones0]

thanks for the help silentwolf

i knew about the direction ledge grab deal

my problem, based on what a see fox doing, seems to be that i dont jump immediately after letting go of the ledge, or that my wd isnt horizontal enough

@bones

i perform it the same way i do the shinedash on stage, but without B

so let go by pressing down/away, jumping with Y, then wavedashing, while all carefully disecting each individual direction on the stick(no rolling the stick)

also @ijuka doing it with the shine IS a cop-out in this situation. its saying 'i can't do it without the shine, so i'll always shine to set up wavedash on stage' and i'm not comfortable ever doing something like that when practice makes perfect(although i've gone like 20 10 min sessions of ONLY practicing this, with like a 25% success, compared to like 85% with shine)

but i always end up either sd'ing or having a really dirty looking wavedash

shining first allows my jump to be almost as immediate but very close to the ledge still

Try dropping by pressing away. I learned to ledgedash by hitting away because that's how I drop for most moves. I spent a couple of months trying to switch to pressing down (and I still use it for certain characters on BF or Marth), but I never came close to the speed and consistency of the left-right or right-left motion. The only downside to that method is you have to switch the stick to the other side before you can jump, but I think that 1 frame is definitely worth the payoff of consistently good angles and almost never SDing. It's also unlikely you'll frame perfect ledge dash dropping with down, so if you spend more than 1 frame off the ledge before jumping than you might as well have used the side to side motion.

tl;dr
Use a Dash-WD motion instead of a waveshine motion.

 

[Wenbobular]

Just hit jump really fast

 

[Ijuka]

Um... just tilt down if you don't want to fastfall. It's really slow having to wait for neutral before you can jump, far slower than using a shine ... Tilting down is slower than fastfalling but it's far faster than dropping with back. -.- I'd even argue that dropping with back is slower than waveshining.

 

[Wenbobular]

It doesn't really matter what method you use
The important thing is instantly hitting jump

 

[Bones0]

Um... just tilt down if you don't want to fastfall. It's really slow having to wait for neutral before you can jump, far slower than using a shine ... Tilting down is slower than fastfalling but it's far faster than dropping with back. -.- I'd even argue that dropping with back is slower than waveshining.

Shine is 3 frames. Hitting away is 1, maybe 2 if you're slow.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Not to mention that most people don't jump on frame 4 of their shine usually

 

[Ijuka]

Shine is 3 frames. Hitting away is 1, maybe 2 if you're slow.

Since when?

If I smash back and jump, where do you think I'm jumping? Straight up or up-back?

You jump out of shine on the 4th frame if you slide it. Well, I jump out of shine at frame 4 if I slide it, don't know about others.

In melty blood there's a frame counter, it's impossible for me to hold a direction on the arcade stick for only 1 frame. The very best I get is 2 frames. Melee control stick is slower. Calling bs on your 1 frame claims.


Need video proof ~


Oh by the way, so I played casuals for a few hours and I got 2 accidental kills with ledgewaveshine. First one was in teams when my teammate captain falcon aerial f-B'd the opponent onto my ledge as i was recovering and I just happened to spike him to death. Too bad that wasn't recorded, it was highlight material. The second kill I got was against a jigglypuff who tried to edgeguard me or something, anyway I just ledgewaveshined onstage and he was shot down after which I could shine spike him to death.

All in all it's a pointless argument and it's not even my problem if people suicide or ledge jump by failing ledgewavedash. I'll just continue being consistent.

 

[Bones0]

I know it's possible because I've done LH double fair with Marth before, and I forget the exact frames, but it was something like being 3 frames slow or more meant no hitbox on the second fair. Also, like Sveet said, it's unlikely your JCing your shine on the first possible frame. Ultimately, I don't care at all if you want to burn all your invincibility frames for easier ledge dashes, but suggesting others learn such a lazy and inefficient method is unacceptable.

 

[ChivalRuse]

It doesn't really matter [who we are]
The important thing is [our plan]

^ Wenbanebular.

Back on topic, I use down for ledgedashes. The key to learning the timing is knowing exactly when your character's double jump will put their model above the plane of the stage.

 

[unknown522]

Indeed

 

[omgwtfToph]

If I can find an instrumental only of this song I want to use this in my next combo vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flBCF10wKkY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAVGT-SRqJI

Relevant.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Double Fox ftw.

OOOOOOMMMMMGGGGGGG <333!!!

btw I think there's a 3rd fox in the background as evidenced by the extra pair of ears behind the left fox.

that one is me

 

[Jethrotex]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAVGT-SRqJI

Relevant.

10/10 would watch again.

 

[unknown522]

OOOOOOMMMMMGGGGGGG <333!!!

btw I think there's a 3rd fox in the background as evidenced by the extra pair of ears behind the left fox.

that one is me

indeed

Edit: holy crap @ the vid. I'm gonna form my own team and copy that choreography

 

[omgwtfToph]

I remember at karaoke me and Kou improvised a melee version of that song, "Can't Beat Mach Dash" LOL

 

[unknown522]

Lol

 

[Bing]

At lower percentages(So I guess below 50) I've been upthrowing the other person onto a platform and then drilling for the reset(So essentially upthrow drill) and its been working consistently but I'm just wondering if this is something I should stay away from. I don't see it used too commonly by the higher ups but I means its working...

Also is there a proper timing for using Jab(s) on shield? I've seen players like Javi do it and it looks pretty interesting.

 

[Winston]

Drill reset (after uthrow onto the platform) -

pros:
-less lag if you miss than uair, so you can potentially cover techrolls if you miss
-higher reward on hit than bair

cons:
-reset isn't guaranteed to force a neutral getup. They can getup attack if they make the input while getting reset. If you can react to getup attacks that's all well and good, but most people can't. However, I think this is the least common way that people get reset after getting drilled on the platform.
-If they miss the tech, they can easily DI the drill and fall off the platform with no lag.

Most people don't do either of these things, so you can use it if you like. Just be aware that these can happen I guess.

 

[unknown522]

What! I almost never get drill reset on a platform (actually except when I was using cactuar's controller for some reason...). Just hold to whatever side you are closer to the edge of the playform, and it will never work (except maybe DL64's top platform).

Especially if you are a non-spacie

Edit: in fairness I do drill reset grounded opponents though. Since the drill multi-hits you can see which direction they're holding because of their DI to make it easy to follow their getup

 

[Bing]

Drill reset (after uthrow onto the platform) -

pros:
-less lag if you miss than uair, so you can potentially cover techrolls if you miss
-higher reward on hit than bair

cons:
-reset isn't guaranteed to force a neutral getup. They can getup attack if they make the input while getting reset. If you can react to getup attacks that's all well and good, but most people can't. However, I think this is the least common way that people get reset after getting drilled on the platform.
-If they miss the tech, they can easily DI the drill and fall off the platform with no lag.

Most people don't do either of these things, so you can use it if you like. Just be aware that these can happen I guess.

Ah, thanks, I find that even if they fall off the platform its still pretty easy to follow up for some reason, its just another tech chase to me.

What! I almost never get drill reset on a platform (actually except when I was using cactuar's controller for some reason...). Just hold to whatever side you are closer to the edge of the playform, and it will never work (except maybe DL64's top platform).

Especially if you are a non-spacie

Edit: in fairness I do drill reset grounded opponents though. Since the drill multi-hits you can see which direction they're holding because of their DI to make it easy to follow their getup

Guess that means I'm just amazing at up-throw drills on platforms? Drill on grounded opponents is phenomenal though, It leaves you with some many options.

 

[unknown522]

Lol. Maybe blame your opponents

 

[ChivalRuse]

I feel like uair is almost always superior to drill reset, if only for the reason that if you drill reset someone they have time to react to it and DI (the follow up, such as grab into u-throw). With uair it's hardly the case.

 

[Bing]

Lol. Maybe blame your opponents

Yeah lets blame Niko K! <3

I feel like uair is almost always superior to drill reset, if only for the reason that if you drill reset someone they have time to react to it and DI (the follow up, such as grab into u-throw). With uair it's hardly the case.

I dunno, I like to get the drill reset and then shffl uair. I find it works and its outside the norm so I like it.

 

[unknown522]

There you go

 

[ChivalRuse]

I dunno, I like to get the drill reset and then shffl uair. I find it works and its outside the norm so I like it.

You completely missed the whole point of my post. I said that people DI the follow up better if they have time to react, which they do have if you drill reset them. If they DI the uair you're not going to be able to follow it up as well as if you landed a poorly DI'd uair on them out of nowhere. The less predictable uair will almost always be DI'd worse, meaning you'll be able to continue into better combos from it.

 

[Bing]

You completely missed the whole point of my post. I said that people DI the follow up better if they have time to react, which they do have if you drill reset them. If they DI the uair you're not going to be able to follow it up as well as if you landed a poorly DI'd uair on them out of nowhere. The less predictable uair will almost always be DI'd worse, meaning you'll be able to continue into better combos from it.

I didn't miss it.. I merely said I like getting resets with drills and following up with uairs.

 

[Winston]

What! I almost never get drill reset on a platform

Well, you are also better than the vast majority of players...