Sinji
Smash Master
I meant in min. 5:05 when SW baited the grab then grabbed pewpewu. #typed it wrong.
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
How is falling Uair for shield pressure? What pros/cons does it have?
Also, how do I beat Samus?
Also, how do I beat Samus?
PGH Carroll
Smash Master
You don't.
Youre welcome
Youre welcome
Ban 
Metaknight of Melee.
Metaknight of Melee.
Anand
Smash Journeyman
Sinji, I thought of you when I was watching the USA vs the World crews this year.
Geez
Smash Cadet
Na I'm cool I dont travel no more ESP for something I don't even play anymore it would just be a waste of money
Maybe ill show up to the next big east coast tourney that's close to me
Other then that ya won't be seein me at any tourneys
@twebb Exactly u got it now bro
Bones0
Smash Legend
You can only cancel Illusion at 4 different lengths. The 5th is a full length which isn't cancelled at all.
#SmashBoardsMisinformationPolice
Lovage
Smash Hero
i only said 5 to see who'd be the ****** to correct me
Bones0
Smash Legend
Damn, read like a book.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
smoking 1 for lovage
unknown522
Some guy
I was too lazy to correct.
Besides he was technically half-right with it
Besides he was technically half-right with it
Bones0
Smash Legend
#freeunknown
#unknownaintfree
#unknownaintfree
Goodin
Smash Journeyman
Lol, thanks unknown! Still unanswered though, im curious as to what type of feedback i will get.Goodin's post is too good!
Maybe someone will give a good answer
RyeJew
Smash Journeyman
Walk the opposite direction you want to moonwalk then try rotating back real quick rather than starting from a neutral position>backwards.
Walks help to condition it, but I'm not 100% sure if they're required, but it sure helps get the timing down pact.
Apparently there is a slight delay (like a frame or so) on jumping out of shine when turning it around.
Try to focus on getting it turned around earlier and adjust your jump timing to that.
(Like set the direction for where you think you'd need to wavedash or something).
Hope this helps, and banjo-kazooie 4lyfe
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
Voltz
Smash Journeyman
Fox
Ayala2020
Smash Rookie
I'm new here on Smashboards, I've been playing melee for like, 1 year. How you do fight Sheik with Fox? Im never sure where to DI. I also need work on my approaches, how should I approach? Also, what is the neutral game(Like, what am I looking for in neutral position).
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
You should DI away for everything forever until they slap.
Silent Wolf
...
dont let them catch u slippa or they slappa u.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
^ best non-mango fox, dropping extremely wise advice
First of all, my most important question. What do I do with Dtilt? I use all other moves(apart from fair), but just never end up using dtilt. The move itself seems quite good so I really want to know in what situations I should be using it? How are the frames on block? Can you do some effective comboes with it at low percentages that are better than other routes for comboes? Is it useful in neutral for just spaced dtilts? That option seems very vulnerable if they happen to jump. Any specific characters against whom dtilt is most useful?
What are some good "mindgames" for fox that I could do? Mostly to do with manipulating an opponent to do something and then having that something be punishable. I don't mean things like running forward and wavedashing back even though that might quality. I mean something precise, against any character.
What are some practical uses for ledge-canceled aerials? Is this just a showoff trick? I haven't found any use for them as of right now, though maybe something like double bair with this could work as shield pressure?
Also, if I dash frame-perfectly after a high SHFFL nair, can I get behind the opponent in time to avoid their grab if they shieldgrab me frame-perfectly? If not, for how long should I delay my nair to be able to accomplish this?
What's the best way to have the most DI / smash DI? What do you do with both C-stick and control stick, for both survival and escaping comboes and also teching off the side of the stage?
Can you double smash DI ice climber dair throw combo to escape it sooner?
In what situations and with what timing should I consider dashing under jumping opponents? Against any characters in specific?
What is a good thing to do if I SHFFL my nair and my opponent wavedashes back and I react fast enough to do something? Dash backwards? Is jab safe here? Will jab jab jab multikick beat CCC in this situation?
Are there any characters against whom I shouldn't try my best to stay in as middle of the stage as possible in neutral situations?
What are the best / safest ways to pressure opponents above me on platforms? What about getting down from one with someone like Marth below me?
That's all I can think of, thanksies~
What are some good "mindgames" for fox that I could do? Mostly to do with manipulating an opponent to do something and then having that something be punishable. I don't mean things like running forward and wavedashing back even though that might quality. I mean something precise, against any character.
What are some practical uses for ledge-canceled aerials? Is this just a showoff trick? I haven't found any use for them as of right now, though maybe something like double bair with this could work as shield pressure?
Also, if I dash frame-perfectly after a high SHFFL nair, can I get behind the opponent in time to avoid their grab if they shieldgrab me frame-perfectly? If not, for how long should I delay my nair to be able to accomplish this?
What's the best way to have the most DI / smash DI? What do you do with both C-stick and control stick, for both survival and escaping comboes and also teching off the side of the stage?
Can you double smash DI ice climber dair throw combo to escape it sooner?
In what situations and with what timing should I consider dashing under jumping opponents? Against any characters in specific?
What is a good thing to do if I SHFFL my nair and my opponent wavedashes back and I react fast enough to do something? Dash backwards? Is jab safe here? Will jab jab jab multikick beat CCC in this situation?
Are there any characters against whom I shouldn't try my best to stay in as middle of the stage as possible in neutral situations?
What are the best / safest ways to pressure opponents above me on platforms? What about getting down from one with someone like Marth below me?
That's all I can think of, thanksies~
Bones0
Smash Legend
If you nair as late as possible and don't shine/jab, they can still shield grab you.
You can only SDI with the control stick. The only thing the C-stick does is override the control stick for Automatic SDI (ASDI occurs at the end of hitlag, is completely separate from SDI, and doesn't go nearly as far as SDI). If you smash up during hitlag and keep the stick held, you will SDI up, ASDI up, and DI up. If you hold the C-stick left and smash the stick up during hitlag, you will SDI up, ASDI left, and DI up. Only use the C-stick for DI when you want to ASDI in a direction different from your trajectory DI. I wouldn't worry about it at all since there's much more important stuff to be learning (like just learning how to DI well without the C-stick). If you want to add C-stick DI into your game later, it'll be much easier with a solid understanding of single-stick DI.
As for ICs, yes, you should SDI the dair to get out, though I don't think you need to double SDI, and I'm not sure if any direction is particularly better than any other. I just spin the stick to ensure I get a SDI, and it usually does the trick, but also don't have any solid IC practice.
It depends on spacing. If you crossed them up with your nair and you can react to their WD OoS, just dashing and grabbing them would probably be the best. As a general rule, I would never consider jab safe, and the multikick is downright awful. It also won't be CCCs (it's more likely to lose to CCing than any other move because it has such weak stun).
Shield drop is the best OoS option from plats, but it's really hard. More typical options are FH (usually to another plat, and mostly used when you just want to GTFO), SH fall through attack (as a counter attack), and WD OoS off the edge of the plat (can be useful for both counter attacking and escaping pressure).
I just answered the ones I was most comfortable about.
Are you sure about that, on the first point? So opponents just don't grab properly against Peki?
Hmhm looking at frame data the multikick is -2 at worst though and there's no time to hit in between the attacks without a shine. Also it was about if my SHFFL whiffs them because they wavedash back. This is when jab stuffs things like marth fsmash. I've never tried the multikick but I'd like to make it work as an anti-CCC. I would never wavedash if I SHFFL their shield, I think it's way too slow.
How do you do a "shield drop"? If it's not a 1 framer I'd like to learn it.
Can it really be true that Cstick doesn't do anything for DI? Hmm that's too bad... Can't you do normal DI with the cstick though? It'd be nicer because I wouldn't need to alter my air movement and wouldn't need to worry about accidental jumps.
Thanks for your reply.
Oh and more. Any good ways to deal with tournament nerves? I've been thinking about trying to think like "Well he's going to be nervous so I'm going to abuse that" or something like that, but I really don't know how well that'll work until the tournament... And I really want to win it.
Hmhm looking at frame data the multikick is -2 at worst though and there's no time to hit in between the attacks without a shine. Also it was about if my SHFFL whiffs them because they wavedash back. This is when jab stuffs things like marth fsmash. I've never tried the multikick but I'd like to make it work as an anti-CCC. I would never wavedash if I SHFFL their shield, I think it's way too slow.
How do you do a "shield drop"? If it's not a 1 framer I'd like to learn it.
Can it really be true that Cstick doesn't do anything for DI? Hmm that's too bad... Can't you do normal DI with the cstick though? It'd be nicer because I wouldn't need to alter my air movement and wouldn't need to worry about accidental jumps.
Thanks for your reply.
Oh and more. Any good ways to deal with tournament nerves? I've been thinking about trying to think like "Well he's going to be nervous so I'm going to abuse that" or something like that, but I really don't know how well that'll work until the tournament... And I really want to win it.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Very sure.
What frame data are you looking at? Even if you can't hit in between the attacks, not every kick will hit, plus their shield will drift away and eventually all your kicks will be missing. If they just end up CCing your multikick, they can buffer shield and grab when you stop.
If you whiff a SHFFL because they WD back, they can just grab you, unless you shine/jab as soon as you land, of course, but people will often try to space their grab around those options as well. Focus on not missing SHFFLs in the first place by overshooting their position so that you hit people as they try to DD or WD backwards. You can't really stuff a Marth fsmash with jab. You would have to just hit him directly with the jab, but 9 times out of 10 the Marth would grab, not fsmash, or just be too far away for your jab to hit no matter what he does.
I never suggested SHFFLing and then WDing after. I agree it's way too slow. You seem to overestimate how much stun moves have in general. I think if you played a good player you'd realize how unsafe most of the stuff you want to do is.
Here's the thread. DashDanceDan has a bunch of helpful videos on his channel which are linked to in the thread as well.
No, you cannot alter your trajectory (regular DI) with the C-stick. Using two controllers, have Fox uthrow Luigi (just for floatiness) while holding C-stick left or right on Luigi's controller. He will just go straight up. Throws don't have hitlag, and therefore don't have SDI or ASDI (Puff's fthrow is the only exception). You can avoid altering your air movement or accidentally jumping by just making sure you don't input the DI before you get hit (which will additionally benefit you because you will SDI further in the direction you want to go). Drifting poorly or losing DJs is something that happens even to good players though. You can actually do it intentionally by making your opponent think you will hit them right at the end of their stun and instead hitting them right after they jump. It's a pretty useful frame trap.
Hmm not nice how you assume i haven't played against good players, i've even played against armada -.-
Thanks for the shield drop link, and I guess I'll just drop the multikick idea. Though I'm confident I know the stuns all Fox's moves have very well against all characters.
Hmm it should beat grab as well, usually I only get punished by that if I autopilot and whiff a shine.
Thanks for the shield drop link, and I guess I'll just drop the multikick idea. Though I'm confident I know the stuns all Fox's moves have very well against all characters.
Hmm it should beat grab as well, usually I only get punished by that if I autopilot and whiff a shine.
Random noobie here. You sure Peki just isn't using a mixup? Like, he shines and jabs most of the time after nair, so opponents get used to holding shield after nair. Taking advantage of that, he just dashes around and grabs you while you're sitting in shield.
rjgbadger
Banned via Warnings
so
ive practiced this for sooooo long trying to nab it and i still cant wavedash to the stage from the ledge
i can waveshine from the edge super good, keeping a good bit of invincibility, as tested with bowsers neutral B
but i don't want shine to be my crutch i don't want techniques i cant tackle
how does anyone get ledgedashing so well? i can do so many other difficult things ie regrab the ledge with up b consistently, and shine illusion regrab semi consistently(not always invincible, sometimes miss the regrab sweetspot), multishine semiconsistently, shine grab etc but just can't do the ledgedash without my shine as a crutch
ive practiced this for sooooo long trying to nab it and i still cant wavedash to the stage from the ledge
i can waveshine from the edge super good, keeping a good bit of invincibility, as tested with bowsers neutral B
but i don't want shine to be my crutch i don't want techniques i cant tackle
how does anyone get ledgedashing so well? i can do so many other difficult things ie regrab the ledge with up b consistently, and shine illusion regrab semi consistently(not always invincible, sometimes miss the regrab sweetspot), multishine semiconsistently, shine grab etc but just can't do the ledgedash without my shine as a crutch
Proskater
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2011
- Messages
- 127
Just try it until you can do it
crush
Smash Master
generally if you cant do a certain technique after 2 or 3 minutes of trying it means that ur controller is broken. and if u make a technical error in any match after warming up for more than 10 minutes you may be eligible for controller johns
Tarv
Smash Journeyman
I can finally SHDL! I know this doesn't sound like much, but I've been trying to get this for so long. Anyways, just wanted to announce this minor victory. Not like I can do it consistently or anything but woo go me.... And now I miss the ease of Falco's lasers.
The thumb sliding method was what helped me by the way.
The thumb sliding method was what helped me by the way.
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
It's the best tilt in the game. Ask Zoler about it.
Bones0
Smash Legend
What happens when you attempt to ledgedash without shining, and how do you do it?
Silent Wolf
...
for the longest time i had trouble doing it on the left side (and still fall back into that habit on occasion). these were my 3 main problems:
1: you cant press down/back to let go of the ledge if you were holding a direction when you grabbed the ledge and didnt let go before inputting down/back. so when you grab the ledge make sure you revert to neutral position before trying to ledge dash. it really helps to know how it works lol
2: i would often think i was pressing down but i was pressing a bit too far inward so it would register the stand up. so i just think of pressing a bit back in my head (which is pretty much just down on the controller). sometimes your mind doesnt perfectly envision your motions of the stick
3: transitions are key. i could do it like 95% of the time after a shine firefox stall and barely ever after a wd onto the ledge for example. wd onto ledge set me up for holding a direction prior to grabbing so id **** up and get jump from ledge. its good to be able to ledge dash on instantly sometimes so you should practice all the different transitions, ie from ledge drop jump, stalls, wd back, up-b sweetspot, etc.
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Just learn to let go of the stick before attempting a ledgedash (i.e. when you know you're going to land on the ledge stop pressing directions)
That way you can do cheap things like edgecancel off the ledge during combo -> ledgedash invincible upsmash
100% guaranteed to surprise da **** out of them
That way you can do cheap things like edgecancel off the ledge during combo -> ledgedash invincible upsmash
100% guaranteed to surprise da **** out of them
leffen
Smash Champion
Whenever I see someone ledgedash with shining before I automatically assume that they're dumb and lazy
/confessionbear
/confessionbear
Bones0
Smash Legend
^Same, unless of course they're actually hitting their opponent with the shine.
Success rate is far higher and it's much safer as well. The shine also hits people who are right on the edge and if you do it ASAP you're going to be fully invulnerable anyway. I also often see people who don't do a shined wavedash do it without going even close to the max distance whereas with Shine it's really easy to get it every time. In my opinion there's many much more important things to focus you tech skill practice on than doing ledgewavedashes without shine when it's far easier with it and you still get full invulnerability.
You also are putting your stock on the line every time you do it. Some people don't have confidence in frameperfect timings in tournament matches when missing it by a frame means you're down a stock.
For ledgewavedashing you smash down + jump right away and then you have around 4 frames to point it barely diagonally down and air dodge. For me the toughest part here is pressing down, I seem to always press diagonally down instead which ends up in me just climbing onstage.
I definitely would suggest you to rather just learn to waveshine really fast, with the shine barely blinking. It gives you much more leeway and you're not losing out on anything. In tournaments it's important to not fail techs, and you really aren't losing much by using the shine. You can also, say, mash fastfall and L-cancel when you SHFFL against ice climbers if you aren't 100% sure you got the timing down against their shield. It's a catastrophe if you miss by precisely timing it, but there's no disadvantage in mashing here and just making sure.
For the same reason I wouldn't really advocate doing waveshine turnaround near edge -> utilt even though it allows for the most damage followup in certain situations. Usually safer options are better.
Of course, me practicing comboable waveshines off shield 2 hours a day makes me a massive hypocrite but hey.