Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[FluxWolf]

Jeez guys lay the **** off kage wtf.. i dont even know what happened but KK's smart *** comments aren't helping. you guys cant just expect him not to react to yall **** talking him randomly in the thread.. anyways stop this is childish, i just feel that someone needed to stand up for kage here ^^

 

[Bones0]

I think I remember how this works from some old magus post. You have to let go of the ledge on the earliest possible frame, but after that there is a little bit of leniency on when you start the up-b. The reason is that there is an interval after you let go of the ledge where you CANNOT re-grab it from the air, no matter what, and it works out so that if you let go on the earliest possible frame then your invincibility runs out on the last frame before you can re-grab. Meanwhile, the up-b can grab the ledge anytime after frame 16, so as long as you let go asap, there's plenty of time to start the up-b.

The same exact reason makes every other full-invincible ledge stall require frame perfection, unless it involves a move that adds extra invincibility time (eg sheik up-b stall).

My memory is a little fuzzy on this though so I might be entirely wrong.

That makes sense, thanks. I guess there must be an exception if you land or something because I've definitely seen people grab the ledge, stand because of Randall, and then regrab the ledge all very quickly.



All this dRoMa was funny at first, but now it's just getting annoying.

 

[EWC]

That makes sense, thanks. I guess there must be an exception if you land or something because I've definitely seen people grab the ledge, stand because of Randall, and then regrab the ledge all very quickly.

Yeah, I was gonna mention that, but I forgot. I think the counter just resets if you stop being airbourne or something. I wonder if that means that ganon's ledgehop reverse waveland stall has room for error too.

 

[Schmeckle]

Hey guys, Fox rookie here. I just have a quick question about the wave shine. When I use the method of sliding my finger from 'B' to 'X' I find myself having a hard time completing the move when I actually hit an opponent. If I'm just doing it on air I can do it easily. Why is this? Am I doing it wrong or is there a different frame when I hit an opponent? Thanks in advance.

 

[Bones0]

Hey guys, Fox rookie here. I just have a quick question about the wave shine. When I use the method of sliding my finger from 'B' to 'X' I find myself having a hard time completing the move when I actually hit an opponent. If I'm just doing it on air I can do it easily. Why is this? Am I doing it wrong or is there a different frame when I hit an opponent? Thanks in advance.

I would recommend learning to use Y to jump if you can manage to change your habits. It's just closer and generally easier to avoid hitting A when going in between.

The reason you mess up when hitting an opponent is because of hitlag. When any move connects, both characters freeze for a few frames. You can see this for yourself by going into training mode, changing the speed to 1/4th, and using a strong attack (like usmash). You will notice a distinct pause during hitlag. Because of hitlag, you have to wait a little longer than normal before inputting the next action (which in the case of waveshines is the jump cancel). So just get used to the timing of shine's hitlag and practice jumping as soon as it ends, but not before or else you just get stuck in shine.

 

[Schmeckle]

I would recommend learning to use Y to jump if you can manage to change your habits. It's just closer and generally easier to avoid hitting A when going in between.

The reason you mess up when hitting an opponent is because of hitlag. When any move connects, both characters freeze for a few frames. You can see this for yourself by going into training mode, changing the speed to 1/4th, and using a strong attack (like usmash). You will notice a distinct pause during hitlag. Because of hitlag, you have to wait a little longer than normal before inputting the next action (which in the case of waveshines is the jump cancel). So just get used to the timing of shine's hitlag and practice jumping as soon as it ends, but not before or else you just get stuck in shine.

Thanks dude, I'm gonna try that out.

 

[Tarv]

So apparently I absolutely can't play fox unless I'm listening to music. For every other character I play I do seem to play a LITTLE bit better when I'm listening to music, but fox is the only one where things just fall apart if I'm not listening to anything. It's very weird.

Also, no, I don't know why I'm sharing this.

 

[RyeJew]

So apparently I absolutely can't play fox unless I'm listening to music. For every other character I play I do seem to play a LITTLE bit better when I'm listening to music, but fox is the only one where things just fall apart if I'm not listening to anything. It's very weird.

Also, no, I don't know why I'm sharing this.

Fox is a character where you're always moving and in a metronome-like fashion when preforming actions out of shine, so it's only natural music would help you to fine tune his play style (I use music to help me play him as well).

 

[battousai555]

Hey, what does everyone think of rolling the c-stick around before pressing R/L for a tech to make it somewhat random? According to Hugs, Mango does this.

I think it makes sense to do if you're getting read hard. I also think it's kind of funny because it makes it so tech chases aren't even really reads anymore, but lucky guesses.

 

[ZeldaFreak0309]

Hey, what does everyone think of rolling the c-stick around before pressing R/L for a tech to make it somewhat random? According to Hugs, Mango does this.

I think it makes sense to do if you're getting read hard. I also think it's kind of funny because it makes it so tech chases aren't even really reads anymore, but lucky guesses.

it seems like a really good idea and im trying to incorporate this into my game

i think some people forget about the fact that the way you DI the hit/throw is incredibly telling for how you'll tech immediately after, this sort of negates that which is good

 

[Lovage]

Fox is a character where you're always moving and in a metronome-like fashion when preforming actions out of shine, so it's only natural music would help you to fine tune his play style (I use music to help me play him as well).

maybe u play like a metronome

Hey, what does everyone think of rolling the c-stick around before pressing R/L for a tech to make it somewhat random? According to Hugs, Mango does this.

ya right

if they do, think of it allegorically not literally

 

[KirbyKaze]

ur mom plays like a metronome

thud-thud-thud-thud

 

[Silent Wolf]

Fox is a character where you're always moving and in a metronome-like fashion when preforming actions out of shine, so it's only natural music would help you to fine tune his play style (I use music to help me play him as well).

except playing like that is bad lol. you want to mess with the 'rhythm' of the match at times, not just be some weak *** robot. i honestly cant play with music BECAUSE i find it influences my play at times. i feel anything other than the game itself influencing your play (drugs aside) can be nothing but detrimental to ur play lol

 

[Silent Wolf]

Ehh I guess music helps in other w@ys for some. But pl@ying @ccording to the music is not wh@ts good lol

 

[Lovage]

th@ts w@ssup

 

[Jim Morrison]

Music is too distr@cting. I've endured endless hours of Dre@ml@nd 64 for @ re@son, I got conditioned to it so th@t I don't even he@r th@t **** while pl@ying.

b@llin

 

[S l o X]

fox in teams w@ssup

 

[KirbyKaze]

up smash people that aren't your colour

 

[Jim Morrison]

drillshines are guaranteed to hit, but followups get you punished.

 

[Wenbobular]

up smash people that aren't your colour

All I did at RoM

 

[battousai555]

ya right

if they do, think of it allegorically not literally

Care to elaborate? It makes perfect sense to me. Hugs even said Mango doesn't know himself where he's teching, so how can you predict it?

 

[Lovage]

people want to roll more when they're close to an edge or in danger, or if they're really smart

so that's where i'd begin

 

[KirbyKaze]

drillshines are guaranteed to hit, but followups get you punished.

slip up

 

[ShroudedOne]

Stop contributing! You're so bad at this, lol.

 

[Gea]

people want to roll more when they're close to an edge or in danger, or if they're really smart

so that's where i'd begin

To add a bit: bad players roll the way they are DIing almost every time, and many mid level players do exactly the opposite

 

[voorhese]

I heard forward use to just spin the stick after his DI and tech like that, unless the tech option was obvious they couldn't follow up.

 

[Bones0]

The problem with teching randomly is that not all tech decisions are equal. Teching in place vs. Falcon will get you kneed constantly because Falcons love to cover tech in place/missed tech and then do something else to try to cover the rolls. There's also many times you can tell what option they are covering by their spacing or if they jumped or not, so randomly teching would lead you into their punish 2/3 times whereas just looking at them would have let you know to choose the third option and be safe without gambling. Then you have characters like Falco/Puff/Ganon who are too slow to cover a lot of tech rolls away, so if you're just doing random techs you'll be letting them hit you when you could have escaped or minimized damage. So overall I just think random teching is a crutch. You're better off trying to figure out THEIR patterns to avoid punishes instead of hoping you get lucky.

up smash people that aren't your colour

Isn't that racist?

 

[Apasher]

Fox is a character where you're always moving and in a metronome-like fashion when preforming actions out of shine, so it's only natural music would help you to fine tune his play style (I use music to help me play him as well).

I want to try this one day.

 

[EWC]

The problem with teching randomly is that not all tech decisions are equal. Teching in place vs. Falcon will get you kneed constantly because Falcons love to cover tech in place/missed tech and then do something else to try to cover the rolls. There's also many times you can tell what option they are covering by their spacing or if they jumped or not, so randomly teching would lead you into their punish 2/3 times whereas just looking at them would have let you know to choose the third option and be safe without gambling. Then you have characters like Falco/Puff/Ganon who are too slow to cover a lot of tech rolls away, so if you're just doing random techs you'll be letting them hit you when you could have escaped or minimized damage. So overall I just think random teching is a crutch. You're better off trying to figure out THEIR patterns to avoid punishes instead of hoping you get lucky.

Why not both?

 

[Volvagia]

Hi. I'm a Swedish Fox main who has been lurking this thread for a while now. Me and Beat recorded some (quite a lot actually) friendlies recently and I would really appreciate some advice to help me improve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVuXPwmdOXQ vs Falco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-E8v9s3B4w vs Marth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-2CMwZq7BM vs Fox

Short summary of things I'd like to know:
-General advice/thoughts
-How to deal with Falco's lasers (and Falco in general)
-My out-of-shield game (especially vs Falco)
-My spacing in general since I think it may be really bad pretty often
-Thoughts about crouch canceling (especially vs Marth)

More details and some of my own thoughts:
In general:
Almost every time I just stand up/jump from the ledge I'm trying to ledge dash but mess up. I'll make sure to practice ledge dashes a lot though since I mess them up way too often. I feel like I'm really bad at reacting in general. I don't know any way to practice this except for playing a lot and trying to focus on react as fast as I can.

Vs Falco:
I have lots of problems with Falco and find that matchup to be the hardest as Fox. His lasers mess me up. I either get locked in shield or lose almost all my mobility from just a few lasers. The opponent can then get a fairly easy first hit on me and destroy me with combos and I obviously need to improve a lot here. I try to shine out of shield quite often but I rearly get the timing down and often either do the shine to late or not at all. When I try to stay under Falco when I have the opportunity I often get eaten by his dair and when I try to come in from above I get owned by his utilt. Staying on the same level as him gives me problems with his lasers.

Vs Marth:
I used to think this matchup was almost impossible but I feel like I've improved a lot. One problem is the neutral game though. I try to be patient and not randomly approach him (when I don't have a good opportunity to do so) since my character is the only one with a projectile attack. I don't really know what to do though except trying not to give up stage control. He often manages to catch me in my DD with a dash attack or dtilt or something. I think I should be able to deal with it with better spacing or if I just react faster and CC or shield, but do you have any thoughts about this since it gets me often?

Vs Fox:
My favorite matchup and probably my best matchup as well. I don't have any special thoughts about it that I can come up with so I guess any advice you might think would help me is appreciated.

Quite a lot of text but I did the short summary at the top for a reason. Both shorter and more in-depth advice is welcome. Thanks in advance.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Isn't that racist?

Yes. Yes it is.

 

[rokimomi]

Why not both?

 

[omgwtfToph]

up smash people that aren't your colour

You ever have one of these moments where the truth just unfolds right before your eyes? Like, "holy ****, this whole time, it was this simple." I just had that.

 

[Lovage]

You ever have one of these moments where the truth just unfolds right before your eyes? Like, "holy ****, this whole time, it was this simple." I just had that.

lMFAO

 

[RyeJew]

except playing like that is bad lol. you want to mess with the 'rhythm' of the match at times, not just be some weak *** robot. i honestly cant play with music BECAUSE i find it influences my play at times. i feel anything other than the game itself influencing your play (drugs aside) can be nothing but detrimental to ur play lol

Perhaps what I meant was poorly worded. Music to me is used to place me into a state of heed, to where nothing but the game matters. At times I'll use the tracks as a medium to channel specific timings, such as drill shines on shield, in variations of the beat depending on the situation (such as 3/5ths faster, or 1/2th the speed for delay). At venues people are always chatting around, games going on, and it can be hard [for me personally] to zone them all out without musical aid.

 

[unknown522]

Volvagia: I watched 3 games vs the falco. The main problems I see is that you are not good out of your shield. Either use more shine oos or b-air oos.

You run into his u-tilt like every time. You never try to bait it out or space around it.

A lot of times he jumps right into your b-air range, and you just don't b-air. Ofc he gets a free hit.

You attempted to grab him like 4 times between 3 games. 2 of them you tried to shield grab during his pressure

You die really fast and get combo'd so hard because of poor DI. You sometimes can't recover from a b-air at like 90%, when you should be surviving a lot longer.

You dash dance straight into a lot of his moves. Especially u-tilt and d-air.

Missing tech chases. No combos. Barely any use of u-tilt.

No edgeguards


I guess that's it for now


Edit: I watched 3 games vs his marth. Since it's PAL, you should try drill -> grab since it's a real combo and you may not get anything out of the shine.

You need to use more b-air when he's in the air.

You approach him the same 2 ways every time; either SH n-air with no variation and then he DD -> grabs you. Or you full hop and I'm not sure what you do cuz you almost always get hit

 

[Metal Reeper]

Does drillshine>Usmash work on Samus?
I was actually landing that on Doc today. Might main Fox since he doesn't suck

 

[omgwtfToph]

It definitely works, but it's easy for Samus to slip out of the drillshine because of how her hitbox contorts when she's in her flinch state. So it helps to fastfall the drill asap (i.e. hit with as few hits of the drill as possible), try to hit as close to her "center" as possible (so the drill continues to connect), and to be fairly quick with your shine -> usmash because, like Doc, she slides a pretty far distance. If you can drillshine usmash Doc you can probably get it on Samus no problem doe.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Thanks so much toph. That will help a lot. When I uthrow Doc what should I be looking for? My usual plan is to Uthrow>spaced bair. What else can u get on Doc after the shine?

 

[omgwtfToph]

dude I have no idea lol I always usmash doc

Just, like, let him fall, watch out for dair, then punish dat