Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[F A N G]

For waveshines,

If I'm doing them properly, would the combo counter in training mode register consecutive hits?

 

[Strong Badam]

combo counter allows 1 frame out of hitstun, otherwise yes.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If he dashes away to grab every time then you should just overshoot the nairs every time, no?

Overshooting for most overstated counter for retreat-heavy defense ever!

Although this isn't really a bad idea for that Marth.

 

[Strong Badam]

It's just the most obvious counter. I prefer to fight DD with DD and long-range lasers here and there. Overshooting can be telegraphed sometimes unless you do it right

 

[Brookman]

I like to fight DD camp by PUNCHING *****S IN THE FACE

 

[Zone]

If he dashes away to grab every time then you should just overshoot the nairs every time, no?

Anytime I get close enough to overshoot, he seems to see the distance of me getting closer and either Fair's me in retreat, dashes in and pokes me before I get any air.

I mentioned overshooting in this thread already. I know the concept. and I gave it shots and to no avail I'm just getting destroyed.

I guess it's just experience.

I mean I only started maining fox like 3 months ago. I did make a few technical mistakes but that's a different issue.

I just felt completely shut down anytime I tried to do anything.

Sorry, I'm thinking the theology isn't helping me at all. Maybe I'm just lacking experience.

yeah basically
don't be dumb

considering you lost to my Zelda, I wouldn't be calling me dumb. Thanks for the sarcastic insult that helps me in no way shape or form.

 

[Strong Badam]

over a year ago

D.A. Kid still brings up old *** MMs from 2011 too, it's funny.

but my advice wasn't specifically an insult; it's just common sense. if someone's retreat DD and punishing your approach, overshooting is a really obvious way to beat it. so don't be dumb

 

[Zone]

over a year ago

D.A. Kid still brings up old *** MMs from 2011 too, it's funny.

but my advice wasn't specifically an insult; it's just common sense. if someone's retreat DD and punishing your approach, overshooting is a really obvious way to beat it. so don't be dumb

I already stated I know this... So obviously it's not something that works everytime aka. He's countering my overshoots as well. And when he counters any nair approach whether I overshoot, or not. It's DISASTER damage.

lol You are the one who started this little hate train. So thanks for calling me "kid".

Telling someone "It's common sense" never contributes to anything. It's just there to feed an ego.

If you agree with him, that's fine. If you had something to add like an option or something. I'd be appreciative.

But don't say things like "Do THIS MORE" or "lol that's common sense"

That 100% isn't going to help me with my problems as a person who is taking fox seriously.

I need situational/optional awareness.


What do you foxes do when they smash DI upair real good? I got critisized for not punishing well on my throws. But it's not so easy to only hit with the 2nd half everytime. Often time when I go for ONLY 2nd hit it makes my miss ratio higher. so it's let them smash DI or risk missing more often because I try to hit only with the 2nd hit.

 

[Mahie]

If he keeps running away then back in, you might want to keep on safely approaching him until you reach the corner, or until he does something else.

Approaching someone in the corner isn't the same at all, he won't be able to dash back anymore and will most likely be forced to either counter it with a move, or to shield/roll/spotdodge.

Edit : Do you guys critique sets in this thread as well? I'm not sure where to post for that.

 

[Bing]

Oh God...


On another note, Leffen; 2nd stock game 3. Was disgusting. I was like whoa **** son. Gj.

 

[Bones0]

yeaaaah

I played soooooo bad that tournament (imho)
lots of johns etc.

im back into super mega tryhard mode now though.

oh and shoutouts to mango http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR7UrvZS4Bw&feature=channel&list=UL (third game)

If someone showed me that video and told me it was Mango, I wouldn't have believed them.

Spoiler

Only because Mango can't multishine.

 

[Zone]

If he keeps running away then back in, you might want to keep on safely approaching him until you reach the corner, or until he does something else.

Approaching someone in the corner isn't the same at all, he won't be able to dash back anymore and will most likely be forced to either counter it with a move, or to shield/roll/spotdodge.

Edit : Do you guys critique sets in this thread as well? I'm not sure where to post for that.

You mean try to push him back through movement?

He tends to do that method to me lol. I'm probably leaving too much space if that's the case? Because I guess what I'm thinking is if I leave too much space, he can approach thus making me want to make more space thus pushing me back.

He normally plays falco btw.

 

[leffen]

If someone showed me that video and told me it was Mango, I wouldn't have believed them.

Spoiler

Only because Mango can't multishine.

wrong lol

altho im prob better than him at it

 

[FrootLoop]

If they're DDing and you're not trying to bait an approach then you really want to be weaving in and out of their range instead of DDing just outside it. That way you're actually feigning and your actual attack won't be so obvious. If he gives up space just take it

What do you foxes do when they smash DI upair real good? I got critisized for not punishing well on my throws. But it's not so easy to only hit with the 2nd half everytime. Often time when I go for ONLY 2nd hit it makes my miss ratio higher. so it's let them smash DI or risk missing more often because I try to hit only with the 2nd hit.

do a different aerial

 

[Mahie]

If they're DDing and you're not trying to bait an approach then you really want to be weaving in and out of their range instead of DDing just outside it. That way you're actually feigning and your actual attack won't be so obvious.

Yup, this.

If you start going into their range, and that pretty much means they're in yours as well, they'll have to start doing something, either go back or go forth, but just being idle means you can get them before they can initiate anything.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Anytime I get close enough to overshoot, he seems to see the distance of me getting closer and either Fair's me in retreat, dashes in and pokes me before I get any air.

I mentioned overshooting in this thread already. I know the concept. and I gave it shots and to no avail I'm just getting destroyed.

Watched the match on Yoshi's Story

0:08 - this would have been an okay place to SHFFL nair. Notice how Marth entered Fox's SH nair zone (I'm omitting the 'FF' because skipping the FF is the easiest way to "extend" your nair's range artificially). He moved away from you. However, you can reach him to where he's moving with that nair (and you're close enough to stuff basically any other relevant action he does; it helped that his back was turned to you). You probably could have gotten a gimp or big combo if you naired here (because then you'd shine and then do something gay with edge invincibility and either kill him or force him onstage with up+B lag and ledgehop uair on top of him and do like 40%+).

0:09 - 0:10 - Don't dash attack through shields unless you're reading a WD OOS (and even if you were, it wouldn't have worked at this percent because he's at like nothing and you'd get CC grabbed and die). This was a good spot to dash JC grab and cover some ground or to SHFFL an aerial to initiate some kind of shield pressure. Whichever. Dash attack in combat is mainly for sneaking under aerials, as a lag punish around, and for catching people that move too close towards you with their dash, WD, or whatever (there's a percent restriction of about 50%).

0:12 - This wasn't a bad platform maneuever but you were kind of slow and tried to counterattack. Had you been faster (skipped the shine, cleaner waveland, hit the FF earlier, etc) this would have worked. You also could have just FJed and checked to see if he was gonna up tilt and if he doesn't then you can DJ > waveland across the top platform to reset spacing. Something to consider.

0:18 - Not bad. Consider FJ > DJ > wavelanding on the top platform as a combo extender though. Or landing on the top platform with your aerial and then dash JC grabbing if they tech roll to the other side. It's not a bad way of covering options.

0:19 - Just keep up airing Marth at this percent. You can't hit him anywhere relevant with that bair and on YS you might get the fabled uair > uair > uair > star KO combo.

0:19 - I dunno why you up smashed here. Don't do those. Dash away and regain positioning or attack more safely. Personally, I don't recommend the latter because Marth is stupidly good at punishing attacks out of position (especially without enough initiative).

0:20 - He ran in the same direction that you were FJing (and actually entered his run animation; he couldn't dash dance any longer). If you are falling with Marth as he is running, this counts as an opening. He can't shift direction except with WD (which is slow) and roll (which is laggy). His moves are too slow to defend himself. You could have attacked (probably with bair).

0:21 - Random panic sidestep. For how close he got, shine would have worked. Shine in general is a safer combo escape than sidestep. Buffer jump is also pretty good tbh.

0:28 - The shine here didn't really accomplish much. You can do basic wavelanding and it's faster, cleaner, etc.

0:32 - You were still inside Marth's ledgedash attack range. TBH Marth's ledgedash has kind of low invulnerability so you can swing at him and stuff actions in this position (or bait him).

0:39 - Don't go for that shine for basically what happened. He ledgedashed through you and you got grabbed and could have died.

0:42 - You're jabbing when he's not even close to you. You then proceed to FJ nair arc into his pathway when he's camping underneath the platform. You land a bit in front of the platform as he runs under it. You then get grabbed and die. You could have done this part a lot better in a variety of ways. You could have, say, landed on the platform and then fallen through with something and tried to convert it into pressure. You also could have continued to dash around outside the platform and bait him into coming out so you could bair him. You could have gotten into position like at 0:08 and then attempted a nair approach. You could have jumped at him, decided that attacking wasn't a good idea and DJed back to waveland across the platform when you saw him do such a defensive play. Lots of options.

0:55 - FJ nair at the high, airborne Marth. Or get positioned for bairs. Bairs seriously ****.

0:57 - Messed up a JC grab. And you jabbed. Covering mistakes with jab is bad. CCable, not much range, kind of laggy (all things considered, relative to shine), etc.

1:04 - Sidestepped out of the combo. Again, you have better (and more) options.




In general it just looks like you've got a lot of bad habits for Fox. Looks like you're not used to playing a super fragile character in general. You do a lot of panic attacks and sidesteps. In general, Fox wants to constantly have actions available to him. For this reason, stuff like shine and buffer jump are actually really effective combo-break options. You only really want to sidestep when you know or can visibly see the opponent come in on you. Roll can also be good. Also, consider just... dashing. Fox's dash is fast - you can sometimes get away from opponents by just running away from them if they're trying to do their tech chases by waiting for your action and then punishing it (although this is admittedly less effective vs Fox, Marth, Sheik, and Falcon).

You need to pay more attention to attack ranges because this guy is more vulnerable than you think he is. You're not really actively creating openings that much but he's still presenting you some. I think you should probably experiment with maximizing your momentum with your FJs and SH approaches, and think about how you can extend the range by omitting the fast fall. Not fast falling the attack is a pretty decent way of boosting your range artificially. You should also think about not attacking right away with your nairs and stuff; one of the best things about Fox is that he can abort mission and DJ > waveland away if the situation seems... bad. In a lot of cases, anyway.

So yeah. You need better understanding of how much range you actually have, and more control over your movement and actions. I feel like you treat SHFFL nair and FJ nair like they're single moves, but they're really a sequence of moves. SHFFL breaks down into a bunch of pieces... you can alter the sequence at any point and affect your reach, abort mission, etc. Same with FJ. You should never really feel obligated to attack the way you're doing with Fox... you'll just get grabbed and killed that way.

Fox wins exchanges mainly by initiative (attacking before the opponent can defend themselves adequately), by going around the opponent's hitbox, or by punishing lag. Try to keep that in mind. It looks like you're trying to compete hitboxes in a lot of these and... unless the opponent is horribly out of position (i.e. directly above you) then that doesn't really work for Fox. His priority is kind of so-so when you get down to it.

 

[Zone]

ok I'll play more to try to feel for this range.

Sorry my previous main was Zelda, and there wasn't much movement in my favor lol. It was mostly just running away/super defense.

Thanks for that in depth description FrootLoop.

Thanks to Mahie as well.

I'm gonna keep pushing forward my Fox.

This is a fun character, and I'm only sad I didn't drop my low tier main YEARS sooner.




Good god Kirbykaze:

I'll respond back in a second once I read this and take it in.

 

[Strong Badam]

lol You are the one who started this little hate train. So thanks for calling me "kid".

I didn't call you kid; there's a smasher named "Da Kid" or whatever who brings up a Pound 5 MM (you know, my first national) like you brought up our pools match.

 

[Zone]

I didn't call you kid; there's a smasher named "Da Kid" or whatever who brings up a Pound 5 MM (you know, my first national) like you brought up our pools match.

oh ok, my misunderstanding. Apologies.

 

[KirbyKaze]

but my advice wasn't specifically an insult; it's just common sense. if someone's retreat DD and punishing your approach, overshooting is a really obvious way to beat it. so don't be dumb

Zoning them to the edge and then bairing them a bunch of times (or setting up a gimp, grab punish, etc) is the easier way to win. Although admittedly it's less intuitive.

 

[Mahie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPLq2OPEFbQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIvjrbnluxw

I'd like some advice for the first rounds of those sets, in which I play Fox. If someone like KK wants to go in depth , I would really like that.

 

[Zone]

Thanks Kirby Kaze.

That's exactly the critique I was looking for.

You open my mind to some things. I'll definitely work on it.

That random jab, was just failed tech skill. I'm embarrassed to say that was actually suppose to be me Nair'ing at him, but some how I didn't dash OR jump lol.

that Shine waveland upsmash, I though the shine would hit him if he was grounded and I'd still catch him if he rolled with the wave land. I'll just waveland next time.

The game got like 10x more quicker for me going from Zelda to Fox. But I like it faster. Feels 10x more refreshing. And that's even when I'm getting 4stocked.



Question though what do you mean by. Abort mission?

I'm a little confused you say DJ waveland away, but out of what exactly? You mean out of my basic movement? or when I'm standing around confused? like a reset button to get out of pressure? is that what you mean?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm referring to how you can break up your action so your attacks aren't as telegraphed and so you can respond more to what the opponent's doing (one of the great benefits of having fast moves on a fast character - this style of play is possible!).

When you FJ towards him (or SH towards him) and he makes a defensive stance, if it looks like your approach is going to be unsuccessful, by not executing your attack as you start your jump (you delay your attack) then you retain the option to DJ backwards (or forwards, but let's not worry about that one right now) instead of continuing towards the defensively oriented opponent. From there, you can waveland off a nearby platform if one's handy (Fox's jumps are good) and simply reset your positioning.

You get time to analyze the situation before deciding whether swinging is a good idea. The sequence looks like:

FJ towards opponent > confirm opponent's position is okay to attack > nair if it's good, DJ away if it's not (waveland off top platform if it's available)

Instead of:

FJ nair towards opponent

See the difference? If it's still not clear, we can talk on AIM because I don't want this to be a big discussion on observing the opponent because that's gay (and also I'm not really qualified for this kind of thing... I only know some very basic stuff about it).



edit:

One more general tip for your Fox. Up smash isn't really an amazing combo starter vs Marth. You're trying to follow it directly, but that doesn't usually work (it does at some percents vs some DIs but don't worry about those right now). It's still good to hit up smash because it applies a lot of pressure to him, but if you have your choice of combo starter on him for whatever reason, grab and up tilt are the better ones. They lead to follows more reliably. If you do have to up smash, just play the situation like he's FJed with fairs or something (sneak under his descent with up tilts, bairs, more up smash, dash dance > dash attack / grab, etc).

 

[Zone]

I'm referring to how you can break up your action so your attacks aren't as telegraphed and so you can respond more to what the opponent's doing (one of the great benefits of having fast moves on a fast character - this style of play is possible!).

When you FJ towards him (or SH towards him) and he makes a defensive stance, if it looks like your approach is going to be unsuccessful, by not executing your attack as you start your jump (you delay your attack) then you retain the option to DJ backwards (or forwards, but let's not worry about that one right now) instead of continuing towards the defensively oriented opponent. From there, you can waveland off a nearby platform if one's handy (Fox's jumps are good) and simply reset your positioning.

You get time to analyze the situation before deciding whether swinging is a good idea. The sequence looks like:

FJ towards opponent > confirm opponent's position is okay to attack > nair if it's good, DJ away if it's not (waveland off top platform if it's available)

Instead of:

FJ nair towards opponent

See the difference? If it's still not clear, we can talk on AIM because I don't want this to be a big discussion on observing the opponent because that's gay.

Nah I get it. I guess I wasn't thinking like that cuz I'm afraid to be above marth(full hop distance)

Thanks for the clarification. If I ever see you at a national I'll buy you a slice of pizza ;P

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sweet. Free pizza.







edit:

Mahie I cannot help you because I hate FD vs Falco and I don't know anything about Samus.

 

[leffen]

KK you speakz the truth.

integrating reactions based gameplay needs to be done soooo much more, especially with fast characters.

 

[KirbyKaze]

By reacting to the opponent you gay them to high hell.

Ever notice how mid level or generally low-confidence Foxes do that extra little dash dance when they're tech chasing? And they usually miss because of it? I think people generally have a weird perception of when they should be starting their dashes and how long they should be when chasing certain hit trajectories. You just want to reach the opponent a bit after they land, with roughly a trot (I think).

There's a lot of benefits to breaking up actions down to their individual components. I think it helps tech skill a lot, for one (because you have to be good at a whole variety of variations of SHFFLs, FJ stuff, etc. with various components removed or tweaked). I also think it gives a better understanding of how to scout for openings and maintain spacing. I also think it generally gives you a better idea of attack speeds because you wind up doing attacks with different timings.

I dunno. Plenty of good reasons to do it. But it's hard to learn so much when starting out...

 

[leffen]

yes I came to that conclusion as well

armada couldn't be 100% straight and play peach could he

(armada plays a lot on reactions)

 

[KirbyKaze]

Armada basically stays in a really safe and/or good position (for him, in relation to the opponent) and does the bulk of his stuff based on what the opponent lets him do. He then converts that into some kind of advantage (this is the main part that marks him as such a ridiculous player, IMO... the fact that he's so consistent about converting openings into advantage and the level of advantage he gets from his conversions).

I remember Cactuar talking about the 'safe turnip pull' (STP) in a conversation he sent me and how any sort of far-screen action (like stationary SHFFL, WD back tilt, etc) can be reacted to with a turnip pull. I'm not sure if he was referencing Armada specifically, but it wouldn't surprise me if that was how he did most of (or many of) his pulls. He very rarely seems to get punished for them. It's really quite crazy how methodical he is about such basic things (and how much sense it makes).

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah, same goes for samus charging/DK punch charge. easy to react to what the opponent is doing long-range and get a bit here and there when they commit to something.

 

[Brookman]

Nice to have you back KK

 

[voorhese]

Holy crap leffen you are really good!

 

[leffen]

not when I play off =/

Im practicing really hard now so that should be a thing of the past asap

 

[voorhese]

=) really good. I really need to implement the shielding after a dash for easier bairs too, i see a lot more of that now.

 

[PGH Carroll]

So I went to two tournaments this weekend. Played very well Friday got 1st in my pool 2-0ing everyone. And got 5th in bracket going 95% fox. With like 40 people entered.

BUT TODAY
Couldn't do a thing and HAD to play marth.. I've never had a day where fox felt so foreign.. I was NOT MOVING. Ended up 9th outta like 58 people.

Think it's just to much? Or just an off day? This happen to anyone else?
It was stupid because I lost to my brother because I wasn't even gonna try and play fox.

 

[unknown522]

bad day I guess.

**** happens

 

[ShroudedOne]

I had a huge disconnect with Fox, too. Even in a match I won vs a Puff (by a large enough lead), I felt like it was me forcing myself to play. I dunno. Then again, if there had been some risk of me losing that match, I would've gone Peach and it'd be fine.

Fox is hard...

 

[Sinji]

So I went to two tournaments this weekend. Played very well Friday got 1st in my pool 2-0ing everyone. And got 5th in bracket going 95% fox. With like 40 people entered.

BUT TODAY
Couldn't do a thing and HAD to play marth.. I've never had a day where fox felt so foreign.. I was NOT MOVING. Ended up 9th outta like 58 people.

Think it's just to much? Or just an off day? This happen to anyone else?
It was stupid because I lost to my brother because I wasn't even gonna try and play fox.

What stage did you play the Marth player on. If it's with platforms, watch out for utilts (especially on youshis). I like playing on FD against marth because you can zone him. Even though he can chain grab you, I feel as if you get more room to zone and space out your approaches, but thats just my preference though.

 

[Bones0]

He wasn't talking about playing against a Marth player.

 

[Sinji]

Whoops, read it wrong. Thought he said a marth player.