Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Meneks]

Teach me how to waveshine? I can dash, but can't shine.

Shine > wavedash > take a step or two forward > Shine again. Rinse and repeat


If you do your wavedash fast or long enough, you can waveshine without taking the step or 2 forward, instead just shine again cause your opponent is in range

 

[Sephirothxxx]

Cool. Time to get practicing.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

thanks kk. very useful info.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If I could apply everything I know in a cohesive, effective way then I'd be good at this game

 

[Bing]

Oh David,you and your negative attitude toward your play. The day you full out say you're good at this game, Jesus Will be here. Or some God type figure...

Also If Im playing against an aggressive Marth is it best to be aggressive or Defensive? I prefer to play Aggressive but whatever gets the job done

 

[KirbyKaze]

If they're bad at being aggressive, then hurl your body into their's with initiative and just play a better close combat game. Jump over their moves and come down with yours. Get in their grills and go for trades.

If they're good at being aggressive then it's much more case-by-case and I would suggest a mix because, odds are, if they're good at being aggressive it's partially because they know when not to overstep and to back up a little bit and maintain good spacing. In which case, getting in their grills and going for trades becomes a crappy plan and 'maintain proper dash spacing' takes over as the best strategy (and proper dash spacing is neither aggressive nor defensive... it's just good).

 

[Bing]

Alright thanks David, I generally dont do well with aggressive Marth...a lot of that has to do with lack of experience XD

 

[knightpraetor]

you basically have 3 options vs constant runaway

1) laser
2) corner them
3) overshoot

they all have their ups and downs

i think overshoot is the weakest strat of the three because of the nature of how overshooting works but it's still a decent strat

i think cornering them and then cutting off options is probably the strongest

lasering properly is really hard

I agree that cornering is probably the best....though i think the marth will approach you long before you actually corner them (edit: on the big stages....obviously it's easy to corner people on platform stages)

...so it's more about slowly taking space while being ready for when marth actually approaches...


I think high level marths won't give up so much space that lasering can be done safely...when my skill level was lower lasering was the main strat i used as fox vs marth..but honestly at the higher level the marths aren't as committed to the option of total cowardice and the risk of trying to throw out a laser and keep a safe spacing is pretty high...even if the laser is unpunishable marth can apply pressure too easily for such little reward without having to truly approach...

taking space is really good..that's how i would play the match if i ever took playing my fox seriously

 

[KirbyKaze]

I agree that cornering is probably the best....though i think the marth will approach you long before you actually corner them (edit: on the big stages....obviously it's easy to corner people on platform stages)

...so it's more about slowly taking space while being ready for when marth actually approaches...


I think high level marths won't give up so much space that lasering can be done safely...when my skill level was lower lasering was the main strat i used as fox vs marth..but honestly at the higher level the marths aren't as committed to the option of total cowardice and the risk of trying to throw out a laser and keep a safe spacing is pretty high...even if the laser is unpunishable marth can apply pressure too easily for such little reward without having to truly approach...

taking space is really good..that's how i would play the match if i ever took playing my fox seriously

If Marth aborts his runaway forever strat on the ground because he's worried about losing footing fast, then the strategy has worked just by being there. And then you can engage him normally.

Cornering is harder than overshooting because it requires movement analysis and reaction to changes in the opponent's movement, whereas overshooting and lasers are far more slapstick in that their execution is obvious. That said, cornering is one of the best skills a Fox can have - everyone loses to Fox when they can't WD or dash back.

It's really powerful.

 

[Strong Badam]

house me for impulse KK <3

 

[voorhese]

this is pretty kool http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OdYWcvOWQFg#t=120s the drill reset from platform to ground lol

 

[Meneks]

this is pretty kool http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OdYWcvOWQFg#t=120s the drill reset from platform to ground lol

I like that

 

[FluxWolf]

I want modded melee

 

[KirbyKaze]

house me for impulse KK <3

So far I think I'm housing Vudujin's car and WA (7 people total). I'm going to need to ask my Dad about adding more people.

 

[PGH Carroll]

Yooooooo I'm in that **** son :D

 

[KirbyKaze]

Have you learned how to move against Peach in combat yet?

 

[PGH Carroll]

Of course not. Lol
We don't have any peaches here.
Just Ambix and he chain grabs me D:

 

[KirbyKaze]

I should probably teach you that then.

 

[PGH Carroll]

Teach me the samus MU too??<3

 

[KirbyKaze]

I suck at the Samus MU.

With like, every character.

 

[Alotsa]

Hi can some one point me to a video of a match where a fox player is using shine-out-of-sheild effectivley.

When im practicing a new tech i usually throw out attempts all the time knowing ill likely get hit in order to learn it faster and Usually when im practicing a new tech sometimes it randomly works and i see the potential...... SOOS however is not looking promising. Im doing something wrong.

Im not executing it when it needs to be done, timing is off. Its usually an after thought when im getting shield pressured. I just need to see some situations were its effectively used. Thanks
- Alotsa

 

[Ambix]

I should probably teach you that then.

Just chaingrab him D:

 

[Bones0]

Hi can some one point me to a video of a match where a fox player is using shine-out-of-sheild effectivley.

When im practicing a new tech i usually throw out attempts all the time knowing ill likely get hit in order to learn it faster and Usually when im practicing a new tech sometimes it randomly works and i see the potential...... SOOS however is not looking promising. Im doing something wrong.

Im not executing it when it needs to be done, timing is off. Its usually an after thought when im getting shield pressured. I just need to see some situations were its effectively used. Thanks
- Alotsa

It's the same concept as shield grabbing, but it is faster and hits on both sides of your body. Just keep practicing and focus especially on when your opponent is shining. You can almost always get a shine OoS if you start it right after their shine hits your shield.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Just chaingrab him D:

When I'm teaching people about stuff, my goal isn't to win because... I'm teaching stuff. Anyway, being able to space properly vs aerials and dash attack will protect him from chain grabs by giving him a defense against the set ups for said chain grab

 

[Bones0]

^No johns.

Can I waveshine into fsmash guaranteed?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I've seen it true combo on Falcon, Peach, Sheik, and Ganon. I'd imagine it works on others though.

 

[Meneks]

Going to tourney today, what do?

 

[Strong Badam]

Wi n

 

[KirbyKaze]

Shine --> F-smash, clearly.

Pressure people intelligently. Do so until you either create habits or figure theirs out. Then grab bubbles, chase rolls, etc.

Shoot people that run away, or corner them, or aim for the back of their movement.

Watch their feet.

FJ bair or use a platform movement to retreat (or FJ --> waveland, and similar shenaniganry) when you get scared.

Up tilt through stuff if opposing characters try to counterattack after being combo'd (while they're still airborne). Don't attempt this vs Luigi though.

F-throw people off the level if you shine them to the edge at a percent where up smash won't KO and d-smash doesn't knock them away far enough.

Dash attack other Foxes at like 46% (after the hit).

 

[Sinji]

Space and Pressure in a way that you have at least one or two options as a back up just in case if your plan now isn't working.

 

[Bones0]

Going to tourney today, what do?

Ledge cancel platform canceled ledge shine turn around bair shines.

 

[KirbyKaze]

That's stupid. Why Bair when you can single hit up air --> shine --> waveshine them to the edge while they're airborne --> multishine --> gimp.

That's way better.

Bones you're a noob.

 

[Bones0]

Bair does more damage, SCRUB. I'm not being fancy. I'm PLAYING TO WIN.

I got a triple shine the other day, true story. Has anyone ever seen it before?

 

[Lovage]

last time i played vs. falco i was doing a lot of uthrow -> first hit uair -> usmash/grab. i thought it was janky as hell but as far as i could tell it worked? canada do you guys have experience with this or know how easy it is to DI out of?

if it works/is hella hard to DI out of, there's tons of potential i see for this.

 

[Meneks]

Thanks for the tiiips.. Didn't think I was actually going to get anything lol..

 

[Bones0]

last time i played vs. falco i was doing a lot of uthrow -> first hit uair -> usmash/grab. i thought it was janky as hell but as far as i could tell it worked? canada do you guys have experience with this or know how easy it is to DI out of?

if it works/is hella hard to DI out of, there's tons of potential i see for this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWkzmvHzZPU

I practiced it against comps for a week or so, and I had no trouble incorporating it into my combos at my next tourney (as Falco, but it feels mostly the same as Fox). Even if they SDI out of it perfectly, I think you are still close enough to utilt, turn around utilt, grab, usmash, or w/e. You just have to be ready for it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Bair does more damage, SCRUB. I'm not being fancy. I'm PLAYING TO WIN.

I got a triple shine the other day, true story. Has anyone ever seen it before?

omg you ****ing noob *** ***** ******

SHINING THEM TO THE EDGE GIVES YOU STAGE ADVANTAGE AND GIMP CHANCE YOU ****ING MORON JESUS CHRIST HOW CAN YOU BE SO DENSE OMFG

<3




Lovage:

I'll ask Unknown today at the smashfest we're going to. I dunno if single hit up air combos directly into up smash or grab (tried it in training mode, couldn't get the combo count to register it as consecutive hits) but it was really easy to make it combo into up tilt. Single hit up air --> up tilt / shine / grab / whatever is actually pretty old (I remember first seeing it at ROM3, although Unknown assures me he and Raynex have been doing it since 2007 or something). But yeah... aside from up tilt (and moves faster than up tilt) I'm not sure about whether they're a true combo or not.

As for DI... I'm not entirely sure how DI on the up air affects it. I think if they DI in front of it (normal DI) they can make the up tilt miss but then they'd be less high off the ground. So I'd imagine you could just grab or whatever off that (although I'd expect that to be incredibly hard on reaction). DI back probably still lets the up tilt hit (I'd think so, anyway).

SDI obviously ***** this.

I think you could probably go for the grab and up smash generally just because the up tilt starts only a few frames quicker than grab & up smash (2 frames faster for startup, although I'd need to take a look at the exact hitbox positions to give an exact, relevant-to-this-strat answer) so if they aren't true combos, it's probably an extremely tight timing to escape by shine or DJ (the relevant options Falco & Fox would have vs this).

 

[Lovage]

yea i was positive it's hella old and that unknown/raynex have been doing it forever lmao, i tried comboing into utilt as well, but i liked the way straight up usmashing worked because the hitbox is so huge it feels like there's no way they could SDI out of it (unless they SDI'd straight up and jumped)

gonna play with it more this weekend and see if i can string together some tight ****

 

[Bing]

Yeah Do anyone have any tips on the Samus MU? I hate it so much.

I prefer it is as Marth but since Im switching over to a Fox main I want to rule out the whole Marth for certain MU's thing.

 

[KirbyKaze]

yea i was positive it's hella old and that unknown/raynex have been doing it forever lmao, i tried comboing into utilt as well, but i liked the way straight up usmashing worked because the hitbox is so huge it feels like there's no way they could SDI out of it (unless they SDI'd straight up and jumped)

gonna play with it more this weekend and see if i can string together some tight ****

I think it's jumpable without the SDI but I think since this is kind of thing just 'barely' combos (or doesn't combo) there's gonna be a lot of case-by-case specifics based on the positioning of the up smash, how high you do the up air on them, and other factors.

Because Melee likes to be deep (i.e. riddled with tomfoolery).