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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

Alotsa

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Messages
49
Location
CA, USA
It's the same concept as shield grabbing, but it is faster and hits on both sides of your body. Just keep practicing and focus especially on when your opponent is shining. You can almost always get a shine OoS if you start it right after their shine hits your shield.
Funny bones i had that exact thought as i was going to bed, "the timing must be like a shield grab"

Aside from it hitting on both sides i don't think its a tech i should be working on ATM. I have a wide range of techs and they are well practiced, but not solid in tournaments/pressure situations (when im nervous/ and or getting pwnd basically lol). Shield grabbing or even whavedashing out-of-sheild are better options atm.

Thanks for they reply. Because this is the general fox advice question and while i ave your attetion I have two fallow up questions. (that anyone elese is free to answer as well)

I mentioned i tended to try and shine-out-of-sheild when i was being shield pressured. so
- is SOOS a good option to break the pressure if i wait for the right timing? or is there a better option?

- opinion on my situation which is = I feel like im to spread out in foxy specific techs and that in pressure situations i don't have a solid go to/ Instead im left thinking of my options for that half second to long. like i need to just pick some and work on making them instinctual.

Sorry if this all sounds kinda noob'y and i know its real general, only asking because its a loose thread and im basically thinking out loud and trying to bounce some ideas. thanks for your input.
-Alotsa
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,545
omg you ****ing noob *** ***** ******

SHINING THEM TO THE EDGE GIVES YOU STAGE ADVANTAGE AND GIMP CHANCE YOU ****ING MORON JESUS CHRIST HOW CAN YOU BE SO DENSE OMFG
??? Is Leffen posting on your account David?
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Yeah Do anyone have any tips on the Samus MU? I hate it so much.

I prefer it is as Marth but since Im switching over to a Fox main I want to rule out the whole Marth for certain MU's thing.
I feel like spacies vs. Samus is a lot more about not messing up than it is actively doing ****. Like if you just play patiently taking one or two hits at a time and avoid cc'd dsmashes, up-Bs OoS, etc. then you will do way better. I haven't really played her enough to say much on specifics though.

Funny bones i had that exact thought as i was going to bed, "the timing must be like a shield grab"

Aside from it hitting on both sides i don't think its a tech i should be working on ATM. I have a wide range of techs and they are well practiced, but not solid in tournaments/pressure situations (when im nervous/ and or getting pwnd basically lol). Shield grabbing or even whavedashing out-of-sheild are better options atm.

Thanks for they reply. Because this is the general fox advice question and while i ave your attetion I have two fallow up questions. (that anyone elese is free to answer as well)

I mentioned i tended to try and shine-out-of-sheild when i was being shield pressured. so
- is SOOS a good option to break the pressure if i wait for the right timing? or is there a better option?

- opinion on my situation which is = I feel like im to spread out in foxy specific techs and that in pressure situations i don't have a solid go to/ Instead im left thinking of my options for that half second to long. like i need to just pick some and work on making them instinctual.

Sorry if this all sounds kinda noob'y and i know its real general, only asking because its a loose thread and im basically thinking out loud and trying to bounce some ideas. thanks for your input.
-Alotsa
I think in general practicing so you can win "atm" is a bad idea, and it doesn't seem to make much of a difference anyway. Obviously you won't want to practice shine OoS to PERFECTION when there's other stuff you could be working on, but in general I wouldn't worry about what techs will give you the biggest boost right now because it will only hinder you down the road. You should try to be well-rounded because you don't want to be developing your game play around a lack of a technique you will have one day. For instance, I know a Sheik player that refuses to WD. Would learning to WD really help him that much at this point? No, but if he ever commits to learning it, it will become much harder to incorporate it into his game play where it feels more alien than if he had been using jank WDs since day 1. Just be wary of stuff like that.
 

FoxLisk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
1,851
last time i played vs. falco i was doing a lot of uthrow -> first hit uair -> usmash/grab. i thought it was janky as hell but as far as i could tell it worked? canada do you guys have experience with this or know how easy it is to DI out of?

if it works/is hella hard to DI out of, there's tons of potential i see for this.
this is oldskool m2k chaingrabbing **** isnt it? he'd use the first hit uair to extend chaingrabs in some situations that i dont remember very well.
 

Lovage

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 15, 2007
Messages
6,746
Location
STANKONIA CA
Yeah Do anyone have any tips on the Samus MU? I hate it so much.

I prefer it is as Marth but since Im switching over to a Fox main I want to rule out the whole Marth for certain MU's thing.
i've made around 700 posts about samus in this thread

just threadsearch posts by me that say samus lol
 

Bing

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
4,885
Location
St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada
I feel like spacies vs. Samus is a lot more about not messing up than it is actively doing ****. Like if you just play patiently taking one or two hits at a time and avoid cc'd dsmashes, up-Bs OoS, etc. then you will do way better. I haven't really played her enough to say much on specifics though.
Okay Ive been something similar. I also try to stay away from her overshoot nairs and bairs. I dunno, its awkward and also hard to combo I find :S
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Against her, specifically, throw her onto platforms via b-throw and spam a mix of sh bair --> more bair or u-tilt because she likes to WD off the platform into aerials so this ***** that and leads to illegitimate combos that are so much fun they should be illegal
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Fox's lasers not stunning + the weight modifier prevents it from in any way being a true combo for him (b-throw).

Though it does work on Puff (assuming they DI anywhere but away).

Pikachu, under the same DI restrictions, can also do that to Puff. Cute, huh?





edit:

Every Samus I've ever seen, when thrown off the stage by Fox or Falco's f-throw uses double jump --> aerial (usually fair or nair) to recover like 80% of the time. So toss them off and bair / up smash / shield --> shine or up smash OOS.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Fox's b-throw is basically a horizontal version of his u-throw that knocks over at 0 vs certain DIs and directly combos vs the other ones. So it's... crazy good. Just requires more skill and planning than up throw --> up move --> more up move (or just wait if you can't combo directly and punish their landing / free-fall with whatever's appropriate)

Fox's only bad throw is d-throw

edit: 'bad' meaning 'bad in a general sense' - i know there are some highly specific uses for d-throw but they come up once every 100 games if that
 

Alotsa

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Messages
49
Location
CA, USA
How I use the controller

Hey guys while im finally getting the hang of some of the more difficult techs i figured i should make sure that generally what i use for what is ok. I know every one has there own opinions but Ill just let me know if you see any bad habits that might cause trouble as i advance more. also i welcome any suggestions.

jump= y; thumb
L-cancle= R; index finger
wavedash= y+r; thumb & index
waveshine= same as wavedash but with DB.
shine-Bair= DB-turn-slide to X; Thumb
DubleShine= DB-Y-DB
Sheild= L
Waveland= L
Shine OOS= same as double shine
wavedash OOS= x-r

Trying to use C-stick for most airs but its tough as ive spent alot of time in training mode.
Only second thoughts im having really is if i should L cancel with L because im doing a lot with R .
and If i should try harder to make the sliding b-x for waveshining work.

Think that's it. questions Comments? Thanks
-Alotsa
 

Sinji

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
3,370
Location
Brooklyn New York
NNID
Sinjis
3DS FC
0361-6602-9839
Off topic but something I picked up at Apex.

In the ICE climbers match up, Fox has two difficulties. One would b Ice Climbers double shield trick. If Ices player half press L or R, Popo will regular shield and nana willl light shield making it very difficult to LCancel. For example if you approach with a nair, and you hit nana's light shield, 4 frames later your going to hit Popo's shield and then miss your L cancel and get grabbed.

Another problem for fox would be camping without a top platform. Fox needs the top platform to get out of Ices angles and create angles to approach.
 

Ambix

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 17, 2006
Messages
614
Location
Memphis
When I'm teaching people about stuff, my goal isn't to win because... I'm teaching stuff. Anyway, being able to space properly vs aerials and dash attack will protect him from chain grabs by giving him a defense against the set ups for said chain grab :p

but........chain grabs.....

you confuse me D:
 

Vulpine1008

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
3
Location
Poplar Bluff, MO
I was wondering how exactly you perform a moonwalk with fox. I do it sometimes on accident but haven't been able to figure out how I did it. If someone could it explain it to me I would greatly appreciate it.
 

FoxLisk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
1,851
I was wondering how exactly you perform a moonwalk with fox. I do it sometimes on accident but haven't been able to figure out how I did it. If someone could it explain it to me I would greatly appreciate it.
1. Walk (do not dash) right until walking at max speed.
2. Move control stick to due left
3. Rotate control stick through the bottom of the control to due right

Steps 2 and 3 must be done extremely fast.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
if someone has free time, they should say constructive things about my fax

more vids incoming, but i guess we can start with this:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvMXwEa3L_E
[COLLAPSE="Match 1 - PS"]0:12 - Fox's dsmash is really weak so I try not to use it for edge guarding. A bair or double shine would have been better there.
0:17 - Uthrow uair probably would have been better than fthrow because it would kill if you land it, and you were pretty far in stage for the fthrow to send him far enough off for you to grab the ledge.
0:18 - Usmash OoS
1:37 - You didn't need to DI away at that %. lol[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Match 2 - FoD"]2:16 - Don't DJ from the ledge; Marth loves to wavesmash or WD into dtilt that stuff. If anything, fire stall. Ledge dashing, rolling, or side-Bing immediately is usually best unless they start spacing further back in anticipation, and then you can go with regular get up or just do a low DJ onto the stage.
2:40 - Marth on low platforms almost always means shield poke opportunities, often on the top and bottom of his shield (unless they light shield, but most players don't utilize that). You landed that first uair, and you could have followed it up with a FH drill or another uair even.
2:44 - When you ledge dash, you can't be too focused on actually landing the ledge dash. It's counter intuitive at first, but it's the only way I am actually able to focus on my opponent. You could have easily grabbed him, but it looked like you were mainly worried about the ledge dash itself. Also try to break the habit of shielding after ledge dashes unless you actually see an attack coming. Marths in particular will usually grab you after LH or ledge dash options anyway.
2:53 - I'm guessing you mean to shine spike? lol I shine-bair just incase I miss the shine somehow. You should still have invincibility if you time it right, and worst case scenario you trade.
3:37 - Shine firestall is pro. Abuse it. lol
3:45 - This part of edge guarding is pretty frustrating. Basically you have to ignore Marth once he drops too far down to hit you and just react with a roll from the ledge. You saw him side-B you when you were invincible so you should have either shine spiked him out right, or just stayed on the ledge until the up-B. If you can't react to the up-B, firestall or shine-firestall is still good. If he up-Bs soon the fire will hit him and you can shine him right out of it, and if he up-Bs late you should just be hanging on the ledge with a good amount of invincibility.
3:52 - WD OoS into utilt pwns poorly spaced moves on your back.
3:54 - Be really careful about that DJ back to the ledge. Most Marths will dtilt so you should mix in shine stalls, and I prefer to just DJ into an up-B stall because you can grab the ledge from further away and it lets you mix up how far you drop down from the throw without slowing down the time it takes to grab the ledge (b/c you don't have to sweet spot the DJ if you up-B).
4:00 - Again, shine-firestall is much faster than the DJ for invincibility. You're lucky he just side-Bs back to the stage every time. lol
4:20 - Same as 3:45. Once he drops below you, there is no reason to get off the ledge.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Match 3 - FD"]5:38 - Hold that ledge!
5:58 - Hold it!
6:02 - WTF MAN? lol
6:18 - He finally punished you for that DJ. I told you. :p
6:50 - Almost got punished again for that DJ. Also, never jab Marth. Ever.
7:05 - If you SHFFL onto Marth's back like that, you usually don't need to shine. He obviously can't shield grab, so you can usually either just wait for his OoS option and grab/usmash, or you can grab him right away if you think he'll wait in shield (b/c he's anticipating the shine, and using that as his cue to GTFO).
7:25 - Perfect! :awesome:
8:14 - Throw a shine in before the bair just in case. If he FFed or up-B'd immediately or something he might have gotten you, and shine protects from so much stuff and barely wastes any frames there's no reason not to use it.
8:25 - Swag.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Match 4 - YS"]9:28 - Just uthrow uair imo. Would have definitely killed him.
10:05 - You froze up on the ledge. Once you lose your invincibility, you can't risk wavelanding onto the plat vs. Marth because all of his punishments for all of your options cover the platform as well (so like, even if he read you were going to side-B from the ledge or LH an attack, the fsmash/ftilt/utilt/whatever punish covers those options as well as the plat waveland). I only use that option when he's RIGHT up on the ledge because otherwise you need to be pretty much frame perfect to have enough invincibility to get safe/get the attack off.
- In general, I think you shouldn't try to play as patient on YS as you do on other stages. It doesn't really work because of how small it is, and how much range Marth has. I'm super aggro most of the time where I just want to stay on top of him though, so idk.[/COLLAPSE]
I watched match 5, but most of the stuff I saw was already addressed at that point. Overall you're Fox is mad sexy. You mostly just need to work on edge guarding and getting off the ledge. I would recommend a good dose of M2K practice (do ledge tricksies by yourself until you are super comfortable lol). Be more confident in your ledge dashes especially. You were quick and smooth with most of them, but you kept ruining them by shielding and/or rolling and spotting instead of using that invincibility. Best way to break that habit is to just ledge dash usmashes all the time. lol It gets you out of the defensive mindset and you'll start to do things other than usmash when you become comfortable with watching your opponent as you ledge dash.

For Falcoty, tell him to spam dtilt when you're on the ledge and utilt when you're in the sky. lol
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
10,463
Location
the west
remember when we were talking about doing aerials right after jumps out of hit stun to help you get closer to the stage and magus made that GIF of ganon jabbing fox and 'proving' that aerials dont help?

well, i believe that they might still help depending on what kind of hit stun youre in. evidence being that sometimes when i do side b (an attack) with fox out of hit stun i rise and sometimes i dont. it depends what i got hit by and how i got hit by it. i dont feel like ganons jab is not one of those moves, at least not without other variables perhaps (like hitting against a wall or something). i believe that out of certain hitstun, it MIGHT help you rise a bit when you jump and aerial instantly out of the hitstun. idk for sure tho. i was just thinking about it and thought id bring it up
 

Tee ay eye

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
5,635
Location
AZ
fox vs marth, sheik, and peach is so fun

i'd probably go back to maining fox in a heartbeat if i could stand fox vs fox, falco, and falcon
 
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