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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

Winston

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DruggedFox said everything I already did, only in a more concise format.
LOOOL

Perhaps the last word I'd use to describe Druggedfox's post.

One of the most interesting (and effective) things I've ever seen Mango do in the MU (a lot) that other people don't really do (much at all) is jump into Fox with shine when he's using his evasion. It seriously has a stupid stun and provided you can waveland somewhere, it's pretty feasible to get a combo started off it. Sometimes the way Fox is moving prevents him from getting an optimal DI on the shine, which makes it really effective for getting a combo started. Mango has a lot of DI & hitbox tricks like that though.
Are you talking about predicting Fox's jumping patterns on platforms and then intercepting him with a jump shine? I thought that was a PP thing. Then again I've watched him play Falco/Fox far more than Mango

like the very first hit of PP vs. Jman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcJ24SxnAX8#t=0m30s
 
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Am I a noob?
yea ur noob.

and to make this not spam..

kirbykaze said:
One of the most interesting (and effective) things I've ever seen Mango do in the MU (a lot) that other people don't really do (much at all) is jump into Fox with shine when he's using his evasion. It seriously has a stupid stun and provided you can waveland somewhere, it's pretty feasible to get a combo started off it. Sometimes the way Fox is moving prevents him from getting an optimal DI on the shine, which makes it really effective for getting a combo started. Mango has a lot of DI & hitbox tricks like that though.
this is very true, but fox can also do the same exact thing with his shine. knocking falco down gives fox such a huge advantage relative to a standing/lasering/gay falco.

jump shine is soooo **** cuz you can use it where ever in 1 frame and be able to follow it up. (more likely so if wavelanding on a platform then falling off)

i kinda said that in a contradicting way but i just wanted to expand on that strategy cuz its one of my favorite things to do in the match up
 

Druggedfox

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^I like jump shine a lot as well, it definitely makes life a *lot* easier.

KK, you're totally right about that being a great tactic for falco to abuse. I honestly think it's the number one way for falco to *really* disrupt fox's camping (at least, currently... since most people don't look for it enough to avoid it). I feel like that sort of thing stands out among falco's tools though, as opposed to being an example of falco's ease of landing a hit.

If falco is trying to do that though, do you think fox could just shine (on reaction) to falco jumping up there in order to relatively consistently stop him from doing that?

Edit: Jman is plenty technical, he's just not unnecessarily flashy, that's all. Also, max we'll talk about it later today probably
 
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I don't think fox jumping in with a counter shine is very practical. Jump in shine is a mix up with other approaches like nair. If fox jumped in like that he could risk eating a nair and a combo.
Jump in shine is great when used sparingly and with other stuff as well. Doing it over and over isn't all that great, I've tried it

:phone:
 

Druggedfox

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I should have been more specific. I'm talking about like, fox is running around on the platforms to try to avoid getting hit by falco.

Let's say falco calls my jump to the top platform and tries to full jump under me and intercept with a shine from below. I'm wondering how reliable it would be to just shine him as he's coming from below to shine me; I feel like it should work because fox's shine has better range, but idk, it might be hard to consistently time because you wouldn't see the shine coming in the first place (or you wouldn't have gotten hit).

As far as what you're saying, are you saying you actually use it as an approach out of like... a short hop? That's what it sounds like you're saying, but I'm not sure. If that's the case, I haven't tried that at all; I do a lot of dropping through platforms with shines and immediately wavelanding or something.
 
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Yeah I'm talking about out of a short hop. Its really effective for both fox and falco.
Fox can sh nair/bair and fade back a bit to intercept if falco tries to do it from under a platform. That's what I would do if a falco was doing it.

Edit: pretty much the same concept as stuffing it if its from a short hop; aerials eat shine approach. This is especially true if falco/fox is approaching from below.
You can use mix ups like sh under them when they're on a side platform to bait such a defense tho. That's when it just comes down to reading your opponent
:phone:
 

KirbyKaze

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KK, you're totally right about that being a great tactic for falco to abuse. I honestly think it's the number one way for falco to *really* disrupt fox's camping (at least, currently... since most people don't look for it enough to avoid it). I feel like that sort of thing stands out among falco's tools though, as opposed to being an example of falco's ease of landing a hit.

If falco is trying to do that though, do you think fox could just shine (on reaction) to falco jumping up there in order to relatively consistently stop him from doing that?
I'd have to play around with it, but Falco's jump is fast (traveling vertically) so I could see the timing being tricky. Shining defensively is also awkward because of the shine's change to fall speed although maybe you could get a cheat evade this way too. I'm really unsure, though.

this is very true, but fox can also do the same exact thing with his shine. knocking falco down gives fox such a huge advantage relative to a standing/lasering/gay falco.

jump shine is soooo **** cuz you can use it where ever in 1 frame and be able to follow it up. (more likely so if wavelanding on a platform then falling off)

i kinda said that in a contradicting way but i just wanted to expand on that strategy cuz its one of my favorite things to do in the match up
I agree and disagree with this. I think Falco shining Fox out of the air (above platform height) is way more likely to create a combo for Falco than it would for Fox. Fox shining Falco makes Falco hit the ground level and that gives him some time to tech stand and Fox has all that distance to travel to hit the ground.

For disrupting a lot of the common camping strategies, I think Falco's shine works really well. Especially against platform camping. It pulls Fox into a game of using aerials to defend himself from Falco's garbage (and because of the positioning they don't really lead to much) and that opens up lag for Falco to look for (or spots for Falco to throw his own moves to beat Fox's). I think it's a great tactic. Not perfect, but it shifts the platform camping dynamic a lot.

I don't fully agree with "aerials > shine". I mean, provided you get a good angle for the aerial I can agree with that, but if you don't it's not exactly unheard of to hear that someone shined their opponent through a move. And Falco can hit confirm the combo after something like that, which is crazy good.
 
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When I said it was a good strategy for fox I thought we were talking about short hops, not catching them high up.
If falco is coming from below, a nair/backwards bair that is above him will definitely beat out his shine approach if fox knows its coming (has it out when falco is going to shine). Falcos shine hardly reaches in the upper forward direction and doing it any later would result in him getting hit before he shines.
With that said, I agree with everything else you said.

:phone:
 

KirbyKaze

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Oh, for SH approaches then yeah whatever Fox's is on par with Falco's for sure.

For catching them up high I agree that proper angling on a bair or nair (or just doing them early so the hitbox is out preemptively) will definitely trump Falco's shine but that opens up for baiting games on Falco's behalf. Not saying it's not good to defend yourself; just saying that Falco has a good strategy to switch to when Fox starts defending himself with moves.
 
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Yea I said that in my other post. Its prob safer most of the time to do something else, I started talking about stuffing it with aerials cuz dfox asked what could be done about it or something.


edit: here it is:

Silent Wolf said:
Edit: pretty much the same concept as stuffing it if its from a short hop; aerials eat shine approach. This is especially true if falco/fox is approaching from below.
You can use mix ups like sh under them when they're on a side platform to bait such a defense tho. That's when it just comes down to reading your opponent
 

Sinji

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The safest time to short hop shine would be near to the edge. Its an effective pressure and it also gets the other ppl nervous lol.
 
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The safest time to short hop shine would be near to the edge. Its an effective pressure and it also gets the other ppl nervous lol.
i dont think that would be the safest time to do it, let alone very safe in general. theyd be expecting an attack as one of your primary possibilities of action in that situation, since it would be very beneficial if successfully executed then.

the safest time to short hop shine would be if you were on the other side of the stage. unless you mean while hitting them, in which case an easy punish would be the safest.
 

Sinji

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i dont think that would be the safest time to do it, let alone very safe in general. theyd be expecting an attack as one of your primary possibilities of action in that situation, since it would be very beneficial if successfully executed then.

the safest time to short hop shine would be if you were on the other side of the stage. unless you mean while hitting them, in which case an easy punish would be the safest.
Yea thats what I meant. While hitting them.
 

KirbyKaze

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I watched for 8 minutes.

Do more grab combos. You can set up grab from a lot of the stray aerials & shines you're hitting but you do up smash and other stuff. Up smash is situationally better then grab, but grab is generally the better move.

A lot of times you pick the wrong move for the trajectory you're approaching him at. Like, dair is completely useless if he's in the air spacing fairs. You need something that hits in front of you (or behind you if your back's turned but you know what I mean; you need a horizontal hitbox) for that kind of defense. If he's running around or missed a ground move then dair is more appropriate but you're using it against aerial defenses, which rarely ends well.

You can shield > WD and other stuff like that more than you're currently doing. His spacing isn't perfect a lot of the time so you can play around with your shield game a bit more.

Your movement is very long and direct. I feel more variety and breaking it down a bit more would help you keep more control over your character and prevent you from running into his fairs and other stupid Marth bullcrap. I suggest implementing more dash cancels and whatever. Doing so makes your movement use smaller "increments" of space when you're moving around so you can work a bit more freely. You should always have the option to dash away if they start swinging.

Up smash is the best move to use on Marth's recovery lag after about 95% (higher on Dreamland). Otherwise, if you're gonna punish his landing lag, either do bair & d-smash to hit him off a bunch, or get creative with an improvised combo (up tilt, uair, and grab are good for this sort of thing; you can else ledgehop turnaround up smash if you're fancy but that's stupid, use one of the other three).

Are you talking about predicting Fox's jumping patterns on platforms and then intercepting him with a jump shine? I thought that was a PP thing. Then again I've watched him play Falco/Fox far more than Mango

like the very first hit of PP vs. Jman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcJ24SxnAX8#t=0m30s
I saw Mango do it first, but basically that.
 
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going back to the controller discussion..

a word of advice, dont waste the life of your control stick doing inputs as forceful as multi-stickywalks lol.

looks like i have to change my stick again for the same reason as last time =/ it takes a lot of stick movement or w/e to read the bottom right input (its too loose in the bad way). this can only be from trying multi-stickywalks cuz i only do it in that direction. the reason i have to change sticks is because ledge dashing from the left side is incredibly inconsistent and can only get worse.
 

PB&J

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Thanks KK-Much Appreciated,show me more at apex,ill be posting alot of vids for the next month until apex with tons of decent to Good players,but keep the advice coming :)
 

PGH Carroll

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Yo pbnj, when you forward throw marth at the edge and he immediately DJ fairs, all you have to do is shield the fair then shine out of shield and grab the edge. And marth dies. I noticed how he was doing that.

Forward throw at the edge is my go to move in the MU.

:phone:
 

ShroudedOne

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I guess you could go into Training Mode for about a half hour, and practice all of the techs that you know you can do, getting used to the feel of the controller, first. Then go out and test it as you play against others.

Actually, it's probably a really good idea to make sure that you can do everything within your skill set on this new one before you start playing with it in actual matches. So take it to Training, first.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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If you are carpooling to a tourney and you arent the one driving, spend your time dash dancing. Not only will this build your muscle and muscle memory, it will really help to break your controller in.


edit- i also like to mix in spontaneous sh nair shines and wavedashes which helps to break in the other buttons. You can also just click the L/R buttons repeatedly to help break those in.
 

ArcNatural

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Is there a preferred method of "breaking in" a controller? Or is just constant play the best?

:phone:
Using your old Shell (ie L and R shells, Z shell, controller Shells, Button shells) helps a ton for breaking in a controller.

If you want to keep the new controller shell, still replacing the shoulder/buttons will help (since those don't really change color unless you have modded it).

Other than that it's just repetition of stuff you normally do to get it broken in properly.
 

WHA?

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Is there a preferred method of "breaking in" a controller? Or is just constant play the best?

:phone:
bust out them mario party games.........

also i got questions
how viable is CC falco's dair and shining before he does...... would just sheilding better???
how effective is shining out of shield on falco's dair??? i think its a ME thing but its like sometimes it seems good n sometimes i get *****, and yes i know its easier when the dair hits top of ur shield.
 

joeplicate

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it's better to "learn" your new controller rather than try to break it in


your brain subconsciously modifies your fingers as you play, molding your muscle memory so you get the correct outputs on the screen. your body wants to adjust to whatever's in your hands, because you value the correct tech skill. YOU can change MUCH faster than your controller.


even if your muscle memory stays 100% intact, and you stubbornly stick to all the old button pressing methods from your old controller

you're still handicapping yourself if you do anything to "break in" your new controller outside of the game, since every time you come back to it, it's essentially "new." it's almost like using a different borrowed controller every time you play. this defeats the purpose!

tech skill is learning your contoller. the point of practice is to become so familiar with your controller that you don't need to think about the "right" way to press the buttons to get the desired effect. it just happens naturally, because it's what you're familiar with. it's MUCH easier for your to adjust to your controller than it is for your controller to adjust to you.

your muscle memory is more plastic :p


you can change your controller whatever way you want, obviously, but you'll still need to re-learn that part of the controller afterwards. do whatever's easiest, but know that there's no magic way to get the "perfect controller," it's all just whatever you're used to.




on a related note, i re-learned how to short hop with up on the control stick today. (hopefully i can nail it down super solid with practice)

THAT **** IS BROKEN!!!! EVERYBODY who plays fox should learn how hahahaha

the only thing is that it's mad hard with some controllers. it's worth it if you can figure out, though. i didn't think i could pull it off with my controller, but i think it was a case of re-learning how to do it more gently.

i hope i can keep it up, because it seriously makes shield pressure twice as easy
 
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I only read the first line of what joe said and he couldn't be more right.
You want to break it in as little as possible while getting used to it at the same time so that it lasts longer. Pretty important for a long-term smasher

:phone:
 

BetaBahamut

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on a related note, i re-learned how to short hop with up on the control stick today. (hopefully i can nail it down super solid with practice)

THAT **** IS BROKEN!!!! EVERYBODY who plays fox should learn how hahahaha

the only thing is that it's mad hard with some controllers. it's worth it if you can figure out, though. i didn't think i could pull it off with my controller, but i think it was a case of re-learning how to do it more gently.

i hope i can keep it up, because it seriously makes shield pressure twice as easy
does it really make a huge difference? Im an X jumper and i tried to learn how to jump with Y and i couldnt do it. cant imagine how hard it would be to learn to use up.
 

WHA?

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does it really make a huge difference? Im an X jumper and i tried to learn how to jump with Y and i couldnt do it. cant imagine how hard it would be to learn to use up.
from my experience it makes ome trhings easier and some things harder
i at first used the control stick for all my shorthop needs
THEN i learned to jump with x because when you dash and shorthop to do an attack JUMPING with x/y lets ur jump go further horizontally, while using the stick doesnt
ALSO using x/y allows you to easily do that thing where you shorthop in place with like a bair but can move in/away. using the controll stick makes this harder.

both ways make somethings easier and some harder, im aiming for the best of both
 

Lovage

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it's better to "learn" your new controller rather than try to break it in


your brain subconsciously modifies your fingers as you play, molding your muscle memory so you get the correct outputs on the screen. your body wants to adjust to whatever's in your hands, because you value the correct tech skill. YOU can change MUCH faster than your controller.


even if your muscle memory stays 100% intact, and you stubbornly stick to all the old button pressing methods from your old controller

you're still handicapping yourself if you do anything to "break in" your new controller outside of the game, since every time you come back to it, it's essentially "new." it's almost like using a different borrowed controller every time you play. this defeats the purpose!

tech skill is learning your contoller. the point of practice is to become so familiar with your controller that you don't need to think about the "right" way to press the buttons to get the desired effect. it just happens naturally, because it's what you're familiar with. it's MUCH easier for your to adjust to your controller than it is for your controller to adjust to you.

your muscle memory is more plastic :p

^
pretty much wanted to say this for a long time


to clarify my previous post, when i said i was "lucky" to have found the perfect controller, it was more that i was lucky that i could use the same controller for years without it breaking/getting lost. since i was able to use the same controller for years, i grew alongside my controller: while my controller was getting more broken in (the control stick getting looser, the L trigger getting looser,) i was also getting more used to my controller (and melee in general - 3 years is a long time of learning.)

it's not like when i picked up my controller i said "i hope this eventually breaks in the correct way and is 100% perfect in these different areas," it was more like "well, i'm just gonna use this controller for a ****ing long time and try to get better at melee." and by the end of all of this, i found myself with a really ****ing good controller (and also got way better at melee in the process.)
 

joeplicate

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i basically only use up on the control stick for really ****ing fast shield pressure (nair shine nair shine nair shine) or drill shines in the pit on stadium or something



i'd really like to start incorporating it for bair out of shield, since Y>A and back on the control stick is a little bit slower, and you can't fade away from danger without using the c-stick



it's super sick for me, when i can do it, but whatever you wanna do
edit: when you're first starting out it's actually almost always better to get really solid/comfortable with your default method
it's VERY easy to get frustrated trying to "switch" from something


but think of it as ADDING something new to all the tools you've already worked on, instead. then you can use short hopping with up for some things, and stick to X for the rest. the idea is to make your moves come out as fast and as COMFORTABLE as possible, so use it only where you see fit :)
 

Strong Badam

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??? sh with Y with index finger, c-stick with thumb, fade away with other thumb
 

Wenbobular

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I think using up on the stick makes you faster than most people who use buttons at jumping after shine
 
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