Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[JPOBS]

I find that's hilarious that people try to grab in shield pressure.. stop doing it!! lol.

grabbing in shield pressure isn't all that bad.

For starters, there is no perfect shield pressure. All variants of pressure have holes where the fox can be grabbed. This is of course assuming the fox is spaced so that grabbing is actually viable. If he is like, outside your range or behind you then duh! there are the kinds of unconventional pressure spacings that are gay.

Second, consider risk vs reward. For most chars, a successful grab vs fox means a huge combo or death. An unnsuccessful grab isn't even a big deal. Best case scenario, you get shined and pushed away. Its pretty hard for a fox to hit confirm a shine mid-pressure and immediately followup. Instead, fox's will usually just do the next aerial and miss their direct followup. Worst case scenario, you try to grab and hit by a aerial which depending on the aerial and percent, could have varying results.

tl;dr grabbing in shield pressure isn't so obsolete that "dont ever grab" is the be all end all imo.

 

[Lovage]

people that try to shield grab my pressure make me laugh lol

most people get it like 1 in 14 tries and the rest of the time they get shined and pwndddddd


its 2011 get that **** out of here

 

[Druggedfox]

Sinji, arc is saying that from mango/falco's perspective you can do a retreating aerial then wait. If they grab/upsmash/retaliate you can choose to fsmash the lag; if they do nothing, then you can choose not to fsmash.

Also, a lot of characters have fairly good OoS retaliation to retreating aerial pressure, but most people are scared to change the defensive situation to an offensive one

/thought

 

[Sinji]

Sinji, arc is saying that from mango/falco's perspective you can do a retreating aerial then wait. If they grab/upsmash/retaliate you can choose to fsmash the lag; if they do nothing, then you can choose not to fsmash.

I get what your saying.

Just finished watching M2k vs Mango set at genesis and about 5 times m2k shield grab mango. lol.

 

[Navn]

Since i was ***** by multiple Falcons at BEAST 2, and i have no real way to practise the matchup, i figured that i'd ask for some advice here.

My general problem seems to be that he's fast as ****, and that his nair seems to beat out alot of my options for some reasons. What are your thoughts on spacing against Falcon? Can you grab him if he misses a nair? does Fox's nair beat his? I feel that fullhop nair is too slow and predictable, and leads to getting grabbed. How do you try to escape his combos? Ie favourite tech / roll options and DI.

 

[Divinokage]

people that try to shield grab my pressure make me laugh lol

most people get it like 1 in 14 tries and the rest of the time they get shined and pwndddddd


its 2011 get that **** out of here

Well that's exactly why I said that, I don't play scrubby players over here, they know exactly how to fight Ganon since they play me all the time.. the amount of shield grabs I get is close to 0 lol. Even they do try to shield pressure, they'll NEVER be at a spacing where i can shield grab either.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Since i was ***** by multiple Falcons at BEAST 2, and i have no real way to practise the matchup, i figured that i'd ask for some advice here.

My general problem seems to be that he's fast as ****, and that his nair seems to beat out alot of my options for some reasons. What are your thoughts on spacing against Falcon? Can you grab him if he misses a nair? does Fox's nair beat his? I feel that fullhop nair is too slow and predictable, and leads to getting grabbed. How do you try to escape his combos? Ie favourite tech / roll options and DI.

If you're not really close to him, or he's not committed (to a dash forward, wd, etc.) don't throw out moves. Because Falcon wants you to do that so he can eat them with priority.

Fox's Nair loses to Falcon's Nair if Falcon hits with his toes. Otherwise it trades.

You can grab any character for missing anything. It depends on spacing. So, yes, you can grab him for missing a Nair but it's difficult because he can gentleman, shield, or dash away after to protect himself so there's a small window to do it (and the window gets smaller the further away you are).

Not sure about what combo escape options are good.

 

[Divinokage]

Pretty sure Bair is broken still.. =P

 

[Winston]

people that try to shield grab my pressure make me laugh lol

most people get it like 1 in 14 tries and the rest of the time they get shined and pwndddddd


its 2011 get that **** out of here

so how do you consistently pwnnnn them from the shine, though?

do you predict when they'll try to shieldgrab and waveshine towards them?

 

[Silent Wolf]

of course he does hes ****ing lovage

 

[Lovage]

of course he does hes ****ing lovage

hell ya biitch

so how do you consistently pwnnnn them from the shine, though?

do you predict when they'll try to shieldgrab and waveshine towards them?

vs. spacies u react to them getting hit and tech chase them

vs. other dudes it's not that hard to react to the shine and waveshine usmash them

that's if the shine hits. during pressure, often times your nair or dair will hit when they try to shieldgrab and you can react accordingly



good players almost never ever shield grab other good players cuz they have respect and know they'll get *****

despite that, people will obviously go for shieldgrabs more in desperate situations (way behind in stocks or by the edge)

once u're at a level of play where people barely **** their **** up (less than 100 people in the world are at this level tbh) the game changes dramatically.

Since i was ***** by multiple Falcons at BEAST 2, and i have no real way to practise the matchup, i figured that i'd ask for some advice here.

My general problem seems to be that he's fast as ****, and that his nair seems to beat out alot of my options for some reasons. What are your thoughts on spacing against Falcon? Can you grab him if he misses a nair? does Fox's nair beat his? I feel that fullhop nair is too slow and predictable, and leads to getting grabbed. How do you try to escape his combos? Ie favourite tech / roll options and DI.

falcon's nair is an extremely gay move and will take you a long time to master the spacing vs. it and learn how to punish it correctly. being able to time dash dance grab vs. falcon's nair is a very hard thing and shouldn't be treated otherwise, i think. fullhop nair is an abysmal approach vs. falcon 98% of the time, against good falcons u are going to get ****ed in the *** if you spam this approach.

the keys to this matchup are:

1. having perfect edge guards - knowing how to react to his up+b fadeback, knowing when to NOT bair him off because he's at low percent and uair him 27 times instead. it's usually a much better choice to do a 70% damage combo and let him back on stage then do a wimpy bair and he's likely to make it back at low percent.

2. learning how to absolutely **** him out of his shield - u gotta learn to space really well and cover all of his options. once your pressure and spacing become amazing you need to learn to predict + react to his rolls and **** him for rolling

3. having very consistent combos AND platform techchases - many foxes suck vs. falcon because they don't maximize the damage off their combos (being able to uthrow usmash at 15-30 percent) and don't know how to hit falcon's big dumb body when he is forced to tech on platforms. when falcon is knocked down on a platform u should be able to bair or uair him every single time and if you can't then you should think about what u did wrong.

4. not approaching like a dumb **** - no tricks here u gotta be a good player

 

[Druggedfox]

^Or maybe those 100 players suck at shieldgrabbing because they've been taught not to, and never actually learned good timings with it

Also, I highly doubt anyone reacts with any sort of consistency to the shine hitting their opponents; I'm sure I could easily find video evidence of you and everyone else proving my point... don't feel like it, pointless arugment, and we'll both just maintain our sides/disagree with each other.

 

[Lovage]

wtf its very easy to react to shine hitting and wavedash usmash



and the 100 players thing i was talking about mastery of the game + consistency, not just shield grab timing lol

 

[Druggedfox]

Lovage you realize I'm saying that like... you can't react to the shine hitting THEN decide to waveshine, right? Like if you've already decided to wavedash out of the shine, sure its easy to confirm an upsmash off the waveshine if the shine happens to hit... but what if you've chosen to instant nair/dair out of teh shine? You can't just see the shine hit and instead of dairing decide to waveshine... or if you're doing that, then you spend wayyyyy too much time in your shine during regular shield pressure; normal human reaction time would simply require you to spend too much time reacting to the shine hit before choosing to wavedash/aerial to actually effectively shine-->aerial pressure

Also, whether you meant the 100 players thing or not isn't the point... you said that good players never shieldgrab good players because they know they'll get *****. That excess respect is what allows a lot of the top players to get away with **** they shouldn't. PP can go up to armada and do some unsafe dair-->uptilt-->waveshine backwards-->jab bs and armada will just sit in his shield because he respects PP; if "some random falco#123" tries that **** vs armada they'll get their **** pushed in

Players should disrespect each other wayyyy more often at high level play; good players get away with some much unsafe stuff otherwise... it's ridiculous

 

[Palpi]

^---- truth

 

[Lovage]

sec in a game

 

[JPOBS]

i definitely agree with druggedfox about the "Respect" thing. PP will literally laser->uptilt on peoples shield and get away with it cuz he's a boss and people are mad scared its a trap or something.

noobs try that and get bodied. or maybe its conditioning idfk.

 

[EWC]

There's more it than that. Do you think PP would suddenly get punished more for that stuff if his opponent didn't know who he is? People don't respect his shield pressure because of his name, they respect his shield pressure because it demands respect.

He doesn't get away with laser uptilt because people are too scared to try punish it; He gets away with it because people expect laser shine or any one of the billion other things he can do, all of which require different responses.

 

[Druggedfox]

No I'm pretty sure he gets away with it cuz they're scared as **** >_>

No matter what you expect, once you get to a certain level of competence there should be a basic level of actions performed on reaction; for example, if I'm scared of laser-->shine... I wait. If I see him do an uptilt instead of shine, I upsmash OoS his sorry ***

Okay, I take that back slightly. I'm sure a part of it is that PP's pressure is good, but that's not enough justification at all

Edit: I had the best conversation with yayuhz about this **** on armada; we were both pretty salty at PP by the end of it >_>

 

[JPOBS]

im siding with DF. somethings, and specifically laser uptilt, should be punished on reaction and with great brutality. but pp gets away with it a ton. people are just trippin cuz its doctor urine.

 

[Palpi]

Yeah, my friend does that **** on me, and complains that it doesn't work but pp does it and makes it work.

 

[EWC]

Well yeah sure they're scared. But it's not like they don't have a reason to be scared.

Not too sure about this, but I think it's pretty reasonable to think that it's not actually possible to shield grab the uptilt on reaction if it's totally unexpected.

 

[Lovage]

i know exactly what ur saying


you have from the frame the shine comes out, to the time you leave pre-jump frames to decide if you want to jump and do another aerial, or waveland onto the ground and waveshine usmash

idk how to CONVINCE you that it's really feasable, if u are still in disbelief i can link you 600 thousand youtube videos of me drillshining macd's shield and waveshine usmashing him when he tries to shield grab me lol.

it's very simple but you gotta train your fingers and your eyes to react to the earliest possible moment (of the shine getting blocked or the shine hitting)



as for the other stuff you've obviously left what i originally posted and are talking about your own ideas so i dun care about that lol

 

[Palpi]

Don't believe you. Don't give a ****

 

[Druggedfox]

Idk... maybe its cuz I don't wavedash and shield pressure with the same button? It just seems... pretty unreasonable unless you can actually see their shield grab animation startup. If their shield grab starts up right as the shine hits them and you can't use it as a cue, it seems plausible, but otherwise you're implying that you successfully react within a 4 frame window (the pre-jump frames).
1/15th of a second...

What's average human reaction time again? Idk around 1/5 of a second? It's simply not humanly plausible unless the person you're playing is consistently shield grabbing a frame too slow, and you have like an extra 6 frames to react. Of course, you could be super human, or my frame data could be flawed... but I'm not assuming either of those >_>

Edit: Well, there's hitlag as well I guess, but I'm not sure how long it lasts. Someone want to fill me in? (Frame data flawed) It's not that I want you to be wrong... I just don't see how its humanly possible unless there's a significant (read: 6+ frames) amount of hitlag...

And the rest I said was based off stuff you said but w/e ignore it then idc

 

[Palpi]

So...lovage is pretty much saying he can react on whether to continue shield pressure or wave shine by reacting after the shine...?

 

[Lovage]

their shield grab animation startup.

wtf are u talking about reacting to the shield grab animtioan ststpep


im talking about reacting to the shine hitting them when u pressure

it's very simple and the concept applies to everything in smash. when u uthrow a falco at 15% and they DI to the right, you react very very quickly and usmash to the right. when you drillshine someone's shield and the shine hits, you wavedash out.

making it much more complicated than it is imo

And the rest I said was based off stuff you said but w/e ignore it then idc

lol geez quit acting offended like we're encroached in a "heated internet argument." all i was saying is we're talking about different stuff and i didn't wanna talk about ur stuff.

it's obvious this is something that's bugged you and something you've formed your own ideas about which is why you're going off about it. if you DIDN'T take it how you did, i woulda talked about completely different stuff which was what my first post was about

 

[Druggedfox]

W/e clearly I have no clue what reaction is and I'm overcomplicating things and its that simple

 

[Palpi]

I am calling shenanigans.

 

[Lovage]

tbqh i actually watched a few matches of myself and realized i'm probably wrong about being able to react that fast. pretty sure when i thought of melee in my head i was confusing reacting to the shine hitting and wavedashing with reacting to a drill hitting and waveshining. no one tell druggedfox that tho cuz im not going out like a sucker

having said that

shieldgrabbing is pretty ****in ****ty for a lot of reasons, and trying to say that the reason armada and mango don't shield grab pp more is because they're afraid and not because pp has brilliant decision making, timing and spacing is dumb

and to be really honest, watching a match where someone has ungrabable shield pressure on 19 out of 20 occasions, and criticizing their opponent for not RISKING EVERYTHING and attempting to shield grab the one time they mess up is pretty weird to me.

 

[Palpi]

I ****ING KNEW IT!!!

 

[unknown522]

that argument was cute

 

[Palpi]

I think my picture is cuter. The argument was dumb, and druggedfox is the truth and glory of the fox boards.

 

[unknown522]

looooooooooooool

 

[JPOBS]

no one tell druggedfox that tho cuz im not going out like a sucker

lmao lovage too good. such a homie

 

[Druggedfox]

tbqh i actually watched a few matches of myself and realized i'm probably wrong about being able to react that fast. pretty sure when i thought of melee in my head i was confusing reacting to the shine hitting and wavedashing with reacting to a drill hitting and waveshining.

Spoiler

no one tell druggedfox that tho cuz im not going out like a sucker

having said that

shieldgrabbing is pretty ****in ****ty for a lot of reasons, and trying to say that the reason armada and mango don't shield grab pp more is because they're afraid and not because pp has brilliant decision making, timing and spacing is dumb

and to be really honest, watching a match where someone has ungrabable shield pressure on 19 out of 20 occasions, and criticizing their opponent for not RISKING EVERYTHING and attempting to shield grab the one time they mess up is pretty weird to me.

Idk, PP gets away with a lotttttt of stuff >_> Maybe I overestimate it cuz I just notice the unsafe stuff though; hmm, I'm glad I'm not missing any special fox tech skill though... that'd probably make me temporarily switch mains or something

 

[ZeldaFreak0309]

hey guys

what the **** do you do vs doc

 

[Winston]

Beat his approaches with bair/utilt
beat his wd back by DDing better
edgeguard him by using ledge invincibility
if you hit him into the air above you shark around under him and try to beat his moves with utilt/bair/uair
drill shine usmash (unless it's at 0 and they're good at ground teching) (or unless they are bad enough that they let you uthrow uair them)

don't jump into his full hop dair
use late nair or drill to avoid getting your approaches CCed
be careful about his usmash oos when shield pressuring
DI away from combos unless it's a setup for dsmash
be aware that he can ledgedash -> fully invincible utilt if he's good
shortening your illusion will probably get around most of his edgeguarding (it's usually obvious when he's planning to edgeguard you onstage instead of jumping out there) (obviously don't get too predictable with it if they start to punish you; just recover smart in general)

 

[KAOSTAR]

names go a long way. good players get away with **** that is unsafe and then it falls under the category of mind games. ppl play safer when playing vs a boss, it gives the boss *****s way more leeway.

I agree completely with drugged fox.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Know it depends on the situation, but in general... should I shine oos or usmash oos or shine-usmash oos when I catch opponents lag and they're on top of me? can't make up my mind