Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[battousai555]

That's like saying people are "sad" for not liking rap or religion.
The things exist but some people just don't like them. Why? I dunno, but to each his own I say. Anime just isn't for some people, so let them be.

Did you even read my post? I think there's a difference between saying you don't like something and saying that it sucks, but whatevz.

Let them be? All I did was call people out for bashing something they can't relate to.

 

[Lovage]

calm down batousai i was joking lol

 

[Divinokage]

I lost to a "Ganon", if that's not embarassing enough.. =)

 

[Strong Badam]

it's popular, so it sucks

it's popular, so it's good

both fallacious ideas~

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

hey i remember a while ago (like a year or so) toph posted about a trick for fox edgegaurding peach that involved being on the edge and teching when her upB hit you and immediately shine-spiking her.

could someone explain this to me? iirc it involved holding R while you got onto the ledge or something but idk..

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

im more likely to believe "its popular so its good" than "its popular so its bad"

 

[Sinji]

How many of you guys nair>dsmash around 70%?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

how many of you guys dash attack->dsmash edgeguard falcon when he fades back to the edge?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

How many of you guys do X -> Z attack regardless of Y's position/choice of DI?

it's my favorite

eddit - forgot about the text, gotta stay hip

 

[Lovage]

how many of you guys dash attack->dsmash edgeguard falcon when he fades back to the edge?

dash attacking a fading back falcon is actually a bit harder than you might think. i feel like one of the finer points in mastering this matchup is knowing exactly how much space he has to work with depending on where he starts his up+b and how he di's it to trick you.

fsmash is the best move for covering their fade back to the edge but requires really fast and confident reactions. (or a sick read which is fine too)

at certain positions, when falcon up+b's above you and it's likely for them to fade back, just staying on the edge will kill a lot of falcons lol. i think i do it a few times in this set http://youtu.be/iJHb-8BczTQ

really good falcons don't really fall for that much anymore though, so i've mostly been forcing them to land on stage and punishing with ledgehop uair. depending on their percent and what map it is you can do a lot of damage and usually bair them back off at the end of the combo to edgeguard them again.

i wouldn't recommend ledgehop dair vs. falcon cuz it's really easy to DI out of (unless you have the finesse to hit with just the very end of it, and even then i've seen ppl DI out kinda easy)

 

[PK Webb]

i lol how my lil vid just faded into the pages of time

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

lovage are you saying that you can't dash attack to cover falcon's option or are you saying its difficult? My main way of edge guarding a high recovering falcon is to just stand near-ish the edge and wait until falcon has passed the threshold of committing and either dash attack/fsmash/bair if he goes to the edge and usmash/uair/bair/grab if he goes on stage.

 

[JPOBS]

bairing falcon at the apex of his B-up before he gets to do any tricksies is the best option imo.

SilentWolf, can you tell us a little about how you like to use quick DD/pivot shields? I saw you use them a ton vids from that tourny in BC last weekend and it looked really smooth and hella applicable.

 

[Strong Badam]

i love just staying on the ledge & killing falcons LMAO

 

[Brookman]

. . .why are you trying to do anything other than shining falcon off stage?

 

[Divinokage]

Even on reaction it's really easy to edgeguard Falcon with any character, cmon now guys. lol.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

EXTREMELY easy, it makes me wonder how so many falcons come out ontop.

though pobs i don't see why you'd wait till the apex of his jump, that just means when you bair him again he'll just be even higher, making it easier to survive.

 

[KAOSTAR]

hey i remember a while ago (like a year or so) toph posted about a trick for fox edgegaurding peach that involved being on the edge and teching when her upB hit you and immediately shine-spiking her.

could someone explain this to me? iirc it involved holding R while you got onto the ledge or something but idk..

its simply lightly hold r or l b4 u grab the edge. lightly includes all positions not 0 and not full.

but if u are holding shield while on the ledge u can just hit it all the way as soon peach up b's. this activates your tech cycle without making u roll.

so its a super ez way, in theory, to get a wall tech from peach's umbrella while on the ledge....then shine spike her.

 

[unknown522]

aaaaand @ unknown i don't think that means the beginning of this thread is gonna get deleted, i think it's just posts on this thread are gonna fade away and get replaced until you refresh cuz of the new live-posting ****

lol, alright.

Also, I like f-smash for edgeguarding falcon when he does that fade back crap.

It's the lazy man's way.

Or dash attack -> shine.

 

[KAOSTAR]

bairing falcon at the apex of his B-up before he gets to do any tricksies is the best option imo.

SilentWolf, can you tell us a little about how you like to use quick DD/pivot shields? I saw you use them a ton vids from that tourny in BC last weekend and it looked really smooth and hella applicable.

he pretty much eliminates the need to be super precise with pivots. he can just shield stop which is much easier and only like 2 frames slower. not to mention that its much easier to keep your jumping (horizontal) momentum at 0. he just uss the shield to stop incrementally and attack and wd in and out of shield.

its a way of life really.

 

[Divinokage]

Yo unknown, MM at ottawa? I'll try my alternates.

 

[JPOBS]

EXTREMELY easy, it makes me wonder how so many falcons come out ontop.

though pobs i don't see why you'd wait till the apex of his jump, that just means when you bair him again he'll just be even higher, making it easier to survive.

cuz it eliminates the need to guess/react at all because he doesnt gain any maneuverability until on the decent so his path to the apex is predictable 100%. but hitting him at the peak and also it removes the chances of the upB hitbox grabbing you and getting a YES!

if you get yes'd you probably lost the edgeguard, percent dependent.

 

[JPOBS]

edit:meh double post

he pretty much eliminates the need to be super precise with pivots. he can just shield stop which is much easier and only like 2 frames slower. not to mention that its much easier to keep your jumping (horizontal) momentum at 0. he just uss the shield to stop incrementally and attack and wd in and out of shield.

its a way of life really.

yea seems to be about right. its amazing

 

[Sinji]

I like fsmash against the fade back falcon.

Edit: i just learned something. If falco and fox are both in their shields, fox can fullhop fallback nair to avoid being shined oos by falco.

 

[unknown522]

Yo unknown, MM at ottawa? I'll try my alternates.

sure, but I'm probably gonna use alts.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IaZLT5XnW0

same tournament grand finals.

me fox vs samus
me fox vs fox
me falco vs fox
""

if anyone doesn't mind critiquing any of those matches that'd be cool , tytyty

 

[Brookman]

I'm not even gona pretend like I didn't just post about this ****:

Using block for tight spacing is SO much better than wavedashing. Shield can be used to make a ghetto pivot, tho your options are more limited since you're now in your shield.

Try playing without wavedashing at all and rely on your dash/shield as much as possible. [(that's a good way to get a feel for it's application)]

This is basically a game of precision and deliberation, the rest is up to you.


@ traahhh and webb. I'd offer you guys some insight on your matches but I am, very apparently, a scurb at this gam.

 

[KAOSTAR]

except without wd oos the technique is fail. I would never recommend to somebody to shield more but be slower out of it.

the smaller spacing and ability to instantly stop your dashing momentum are only useful when u can quickly transition.

 

[Kanelol]

I always saw SW and Lovage and whoever use shield to cancel momentum instantly

But by the time I realized what they were doing exactly, they were already halfway across the stage, doing something else I didn't understand

So I'm really not sure what applications there are for shielding aggressively. But it's been on my list of things to figure out. For like 6 months. :\

EDIT: But if I wanted a ghetto pivot I could just shine by dammit

 

[Sinji]

First Match: LOL randall on the first match.

Im not familiar with the samus matchup so i cant critique on that.

Second match:Nice shine>turn around>bair for the first stock.

4:08 should have short hop before shine spike.

4:57 Good read for the dsmash.

Overall good set Trahh.

 

[Brookman]

except without wd oos the technique is fail. I would never recommend to somebody to shield more but be slower out of it.

the smaller spacing and ability to instantly stop your dashing momentum are only useful when u can quickly transition.

I am going to assume your statement is purely conjecture and that you haven't bothered playing in that style. I simply recommend playing without wavedashing to get used to spacing with the dash/shield. If you then feel like wavedashing out of shield immediately every time always and forever is the correct approach then please do so. Otherwise, maybe you could actually learn something on your own.

 

[EWC]

except without wd oos the technique is fail. I would never recommend to somebody to shield more but be slower out of it.

the smaller spacing and ability to instantly stop your dashing momentum are only useful when u can quickly transition.

Shield stopping is still pretty darn useful even if you don't wd oos. You can use it to get really quick precise spacing on aerials by out of your dash dance. Obviously it is strictly better if you also incorporate wd oos, but that's not really what makes it good.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I wish i was good at shield stopping. I think its going to be one of the next things i will be implimenting into my gameplay

 

[Divinokage]

What is shield stopping now? I'm guessing it's something I use regularly in my style, because I'm not able to do WD OOS. It is shielding and then do something else after?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Its like what zhu does all the time. Dash forward, dash back, immediate shield, sh bair. Dash, shield, jump laser. Basically using shield to stop your momentum completely before jumping in order to control your positioning even better.

 

[Brookman]

dash forward, turn + shield, short hop back air Or any other sort of variation like that, kage.

Basically what sveet said. It's a more convenient way to pivot a jump.

piv·ot (pvt)
n.
1. A short rod or shaft on which a related part rotates or swings.
2. A person or thing on which something depends or turns; the central or crucial factor.
3. The act of turning on or as if on a pivot.
4. Basketball
a. A position taken by an offensive player usually facing away from the basket near the foul line to relay passes, attempt a shot, or set screens.
b. The stationary foot around which the ball handler is allowed to pivot without dribbling. <----

 

[Divinokage]

Ya alright, using shield to not over-extend too much.. I get that. It's pretty good... lol. I think people started using this because of Brawl.

 

[Tomacawk]

I spent a lot of time perfecting pivots, so I always pivot sh bair (no horizontal movement). I should really start shielding just to guarantee the spacing.
this game is so ****ing hard sometimes

 

[KAOSTAR]

I am going to assume your statement is purely conjecture and that you haven't bothered playing in that style. I simply recommend playing without wavedashing to get used to spacing with the dash/shield. If you then feel like wavedashing out of shield immediately every time always and forever is the correct approach then please do so. Otherwise, maybe you could actually learn something on your own.

I just dont think that it requires no wavedashing. and it doesnt. The best way to practice it is to try it more, but I just dont believe taking out wavedashing will add to your practice or make u more reliant on the technique...such as playing falco with no laser forces u to really really think about your approaches and make your combos count.

Shield stopping, which I spent hours practicing btw(back when I mained m2/marth), isnt an alternative to a WD, if anything its an alternative to a pivot since they tend to cover most of the same functions. Most players dont pivot, or cant pivot reliably, and therefore this technique is usually additive and not a replacement for another.

The other important thing about shield stopping is that simply putting up your shield often makes your opponent think you are on the defensive and they may attack thinking that its safe or that you are going to be set. Its just another visual thing to process and when you can quickly bring up and drop your shield while moving while still being able to attack its pretty trippy on the eyes.

So for anyone who thinks Im saying that you need to WD oos everytime you shield, and shield stopping is not useful on its own(if u look a few posts down you will see where I posted about it), thats not what Im saying.

edit: at tomacawk-yea I know what you mean, I use to practice pivot anything stupid(marths pivot reverse up B). I can still pivot pretty reliably but mostly I just do bairs and jabs and ftilts(Im really really trying to get uptilt down). Shield stopping is wayY easier and not much slower.

 

[Divinokage]

I just dont think that it requires no wavedashing. and it doesnt. The best way to practice it is to try it more, but I just dont believe taking out wavedashing will add to your practice or make u more reliant on the technique...such as playing falco with no laser forces u to really really think about your approaches and make your combos count.

Shield stopping, which I spent hours practicing btw(back when I mained m2/marth), isnt an alternative to a WD, if anything its an alternative to a pivot since they tend to cover most of the same functions. Most players dont pivot, or cant pivot reliably, and therefore this technique is usually additive and not a replacement for another.

The other important thing about shield stopping is that simply putting up your shield often makes your opponent think you are on the defensive and they may attack thinking that its safe or that you are going to be set. Its just another visual thing to process and when you can quickly bring up and drop your shield while moving while still being able to attack its pretty trippy on the eyes.

So for anyone who thinks Im saying that you need to WD oos everytime you shield, and shield stopping is not useful on its own, thats not what Im saying.

Obviously, it's about execution. I don't think it's an alternative to anything.. the game is about timing.. changing your timing up can really screw up someone as you become a lot more unpredictable. You can attack, and then dash away.. or just attack and stand there for a few seconds and see what happens.. yes? I laugh at people in game when I play against them who WD all over the place.. I can just walk over to them and either Fair or Ftilt lol. Or like when they DD right in my face, whoops a fair bad DI. (No offense to anyone, it's my pleasure)

So yes you can force a lot of things but it's not just shield stopping though.