Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[lord karn]

imo you must be able to powershield to beat good falcos. one of my favorite things to do is powershield approach to usmash oos or nair or grab.
you must also learn how to effectively utilize platforms to beat good falcos. lasers are far less effective when you are not on ground level, and at this point you're free to run from platform to plat looking for an opening. bair is your only answer to falco in terms of range and priority, so using platforms to set up fullhop bairs/dropping bairs is a key aspect you will need to have down. also shffling a nair off of a platform as he SHLs will put you over his laser and into his dome.
if he's cross map, shine his lasers back. if he comes at you without lasering jump out of your shine. wd oos in between lasers to advance slowly, try to powershield with each successive laser as you advance in this manner. if you can get close enough to him, it won't be safe for him to laser anymore and this is when you should really pounce. This is what you want. however, dair out prioritizes everythign you have so you have to choose your battles wisely. pretty much you will never beat falco's aerials, your nair will trade with his nair but that's about it, you have to advance and make him uncomfortable and then make him fight on your terms in order to secure the first hit.
a cool thing you can do is wd oos from a laser about 2 ftilt lengths away from him, then pivot powershield his next laser, putting your back to him. you can now wd oos again and utilt if he tries to laser one more time (assuming he doesn't retreat), or bair oos if he approaches, which is your only shot at beating his dair. whether you fullhop or sh this bair is up to you and depends on plats and the situation.
usmash oos if he lasers and comes at you in close quarters.
if he's laser grabbing you, buffer spotdodge after the laser and shine/usmash to punish the whiffed grab

Guess I should start practicing powershielding.

 

[Tomacawk]

^what's the reasoning behind taking Falco to FD?

a shine with falco vs falco/fox on fd is basically a stock
i haven't been chain grabbed to death more than shine combo'd to death

i like to use platforms against falco

Ruby basically answered this, but FD is the only map in my opinion where fox's offense is on par or even better than falco's. lasers become a bigger pain, however the combo potential for fox is just incredible here. falco's weight/fall speed is such that fox can chainthrow until 60% (you can continue chainthrowing until they don't DI the uthrow, then you should utilt). after the utilt you read their DI, I prefer to full hop soft nair them, hitting with the nair as I'm falling, and you can usually get a regrab unless they DI'd away, in which case you can now tech chase for a regrab to uthrow bair to ledgeguard.
I do this pretty much every single stock at this stage.
and uthrow charged usmash is a legit kill move that cannot be gotten out of at higher %'s
I've been able to get people at 120% with it, even when they don't DI the uthrow
exhibit A:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3Tmi8urjsg#t=0m23s

 

[PK Webb]

how in the blue hell do u defeat marth i find it close to impossible

 

[ChivalRuse]

Uthrow uair.

A lot.

 

[PK Webb]

basically here is the ordeal....the marth double fairs while retreating and nairs while approaching...if any of them hit me i get grabbed and zero to death easy or at last 50% put on me.....i cant seem to get in to grab without gettin hit and they dont mess up l cancels......i cant through marths range....i do lazer but once he gets nair i cant seem to outspace his massive hit box.....

 

[ChivalRuse]

Dash dance and play close attention to Marth's movement. If he approaches with a dtilt or grab a lot, start SHFFLing nairs into his dash. If he does running fsmash, block it and make him suffer with a shieldgrab, usmash oos, or wavedash oos -> grab.

Fair and nair are actually very punishable. You have to be extremely careful, though, because a mistiming on your part gets you grabbed. If Marth does any aerial while moving forward, a well timed dash attack will always catch him. Well spaced dash dance grabs can also work. If the Marth likes to fair and then run away, run towards him like you're attacking where he lands but keep running and dash attack later. Most of the time, you'll catch Marths who try to bait with fairs this way.

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

if your marth doesn't approach laser. If he does approach, you have the advantage, because you can just dash dance grab or nair. Just remember to basically never approach against a good marth unless you're down, or they like to approach. If they like to sit in their fair wall, just leave them alone.

 

[lord karn]

how in the blue hell do u defeat marth i find it close to impossible

From what I've found, you need to shoot lasers to make marth approach, but when you see him start moving you want to approach him. Basically, if marth is standing still when you make an action he has the advantage. Marth can beat most of your approaches from standing by reacting with uptilt or wavedash back and grab. However, if you shoot lasers, he has to approach, and then it's pretty much an even guessing game.

 

[Tomacawk]

basically here is the ordeal....the marth double fairs while retreating and nairs while approaching...if any of them hit me i get grabbed and zero to death easy or at last 50% put on me.....i cant seem to get in to grab without gettin hit and they dont mess up l cancels......i cant through marths range....i do lazer but once he gets nair i cant seem to outspace his massive hit box.....

if they're retreating with double fairs, don't pursue. Laser instead. What do you lose by him whiffing double fairs? You gain if you laser him. And chances are he's doing this out of fear/whim because it's an unsafe way to retreat...you could beat it with well timed shffl nairs or even a shine approach. Punish his idle decisions.
If he's approaching with nair, you can jump over it and bair really easily. you can waveland on a platform at an angle which the nair doesn't cover, and drop with nair/bair/dair to punish it.
you could also shield the nair and grab oos, usmash oos, shine oos, or wd oos away from him if he landed behind you and retreat for space with a SHL
many times you can buffer spotdodge in between his aerials and an ensuing grab at low percents.
dealing with marth's range is really difficult. you have to deal with the possibility of whiffed aerials to dash away, to jc grab on your short approach/failed punish, the possibility of whiffed aerials being covered by utilt, and also long grab range, not to mention any ftilts/fsmashes are being thrown out. my best advice for beating marth's range is don't try--pick your battles, keep him in the air with lasers so you can take away his aerial game with nairs tearing through anything he approaches with or shield and punishing, if applicable, leaving him with dd to grab or approaching dtilt. this is your chance to approach past him, barrage him with more lasers, or even grab approach him
to deal with his combos, don't use your jump unless you know it will be safe to do so. DI away anything but fsmash, utilts, and chainthrow at exactly 20% post throw(you can shine out if they try to regrab without moving at this percent)

 

[Jupz]

Hey, as mentioned before I'm new to melee, and I was just wondering what are foxes safest (and best) approaches? And also, when should I be using what throw?

 

[PK Webb]

Hey, as mentioned before I'm new to melee, and I was just wondering what are foxes safest (and best) approaches? And also, when should I be using what throw?

Foxes don't usually approach we trick our opponents into coming to our den of shining ****...we bait more then anything but to punish or approach nair shine works or running shine if ur fast enuff....also its character specific to....some chars u need to play defensive and don't approach...others u need the drillshine.....then some u can just ****....only no that if any char grabs u things are about too get gross....up throw to aerial is that bread and butter

 

[TresChikon]

Hey, as mentioned before I'm new to melee, and I was just wondering what are foxes safest (and best) approaches? And also, when should I be using what throw?

Fox doesn't have to approach. Lasers statistically cause others to become stupid and do stupid stuff.

If you HAVE to though (which you probably don't and you just want to approach because you're a raging top tier,) then drill is really good against people who like to CC; it combos into shine and combos and stuff. Umm... against wallish kinds of defenses, like retreating fair from Marth, you can approach with a shield and then do stuff to his whiffs OoS.

Bair is nice for spacing against...everything.

U-throw on everyone. U-throw yields combos.

People who can jump out of it...just read their escape and u-air them summore.

I think those people are... Luigi, Doc, Mario, Samus, Ganon? Anyways you can always f-throw them at the edge or d-throw techchase, but u-throw is still good since with a good read, you can still follow up. If you feel lazy, you can just bair most of them at lowish percents.

 

[Jupz]

Awesome responses, thanks for the help guys

 

[Lovage]

Hey, as mentioned before I'm new to melee, and I was just wondering what are foxes safest (and best) approaches? And also, when should I be using what throw?

these are really broad questions so it's hard to give a straight answer (except the throws question, always throw up unless its against a weird character)

you should watch fox videos (lucky, jman, m2k etc) and pick up as much as you can from that. then play with your friends and see what works

 

[PK Webb]

we call this the help t webb thread lol.....sometimes I run past (let just say falco) then I shine. He falls behind me is there a way to thunder from there because I can't seem to be able to jab outta the backwards waveshine

 

[Tomacawk]

we call this the help t webb thread lol.....sometimes I run past (let just say falco) then I shine. He falls behind me is there a way to thunder from there because I can't seem to be able to jab outta the backwards waveshine

if you run all the way past somebody and shine then you should waveshine backwards. don't try to jab reset, try to grab them off of whatever they do to get up. you should immidiately foxtrot towards them after the waveshine, you should be at grab/usmash range of where they landed. be careful for get up attacks.
if they pause and stand up you can almost be positive they're going to buffer a spotdodge so you should either usmash asap or wait for their next move and grab
if they roll away you can catch them with anything
if they roll towards you as long as you foxtrotted you can still catch them
jab resetting isn't what is important, them being on the ground is.
for characters that don't fall down you should usmash, grab, or drill after waveshining backwards
uptilt if you're adventurous

 

[FoxLisk]

yes, just do it faster and don't mess up. i can't thunders combo backwards but there's no reason you can't in general. it's just gonna be hard to turn around and jab in time. also, i tend to not get perfect WD backward a lot of the time... but if you cand o all that i think you should be able to thunders backwards.

 

[ZoSo]

if you run all the way past somebody and shine then you should waveshine backwards. don't try to jab reset, try to grab them off of whatever they do to get up. you should immidiately foxtrot towards them after the waveshine, you should be at grab/usmash range of where they landed. be careful for get up attacks.
if they pause and stand up you can almost be positive they're going to buffer a spotdodge so you should either usmash asap or wait for their next move and grab
if they roll away you can catch them with anything
if they roll towards you as long as you foxtrotted you can still catch them
jab resetting isn't what is important, them being on the ground is.
for characters that don't fall down you should usmash, grab, or drill after waveshining backwards
uptilt if you're adventurous

I basically agree with this except for a few things.

Shine against a grounded Fox or Falco will leave them on their back facing toward you, which means if they do a getup attack, they will attack toward you first. This is difficult to react to unless you're really familiar with the animation, which I think most people aren't (myself included). IMO, it's usually better to space yourself for the getup attack and it's undoubtedly better if they land near the edge because you can react to whatever they do.

Although I agree that a lot of players are likely to spot dodge after standing up, it's better to just react to them standing up. If you allow them time to roll/spot dodge/whatever, it's basically just creating another variable, which means another thing for you to read/react to.

Also, dash attack is a good way to combo from shines against characters who don't fall down and slide somewhat far (Marth, Mario, Doc).

 

[Tomacawk]

I basically agree with this except for a few things.

Shine against a grounded Fox or Falco will leave them on their back facing toward you, which means if they do a getup attack, they will attack toward you first. This is difficult to react to unless you're really familiar with the animation, which I think most people aren't (myself included). IMO, it's usually better to space yourself for the getup attack and it's undoubtedly better if they land near the edge because you can react to whatever they do.

Although I agree that a lot of players are likely to spot dodge after standing up, it's better to just react to them standing up. If you allow them time to roll/spot dodge/whatever, it's basically just creating another variable, which means another thing for you to read/react to.

Also, dash attack is a good way to combo from shines against characters who don't fall down and slide somewhat far (Marth, Mario, Doc).

if I see them get up attack I'll shield in front of them, and if they don't get up attack right away I wd oos and chase them from there
it's not 100% guaranteed but it's pretty close
and I am never fast enough to get people in a grab when they stand up, I can only get a usmash or a shine
so that's why I wait for the spot dodge
dash attack actually combos out of waveshine on weegee as well

 

[ZoSo]

Think of it this way, if you space yourself for the getup attack, you can easily cover standing up, getup attack, and roll toward you. Reacting fast enough for the roll away is difficult but I've done it.

If you shield in front of them, you cover standing up and the getup attack. If they choose to roll either way, you're forced to guess. Also, if you guess wrong and WD out too soon, you can get hit by a delayed getup attack.

You might think I'm being nitpicky, but in Fox dittos and Fox vs. Falco, it's really important to do as much as you can with every opening.

Usmash and grab both hit frame 7.

 

[Tomacawk]

I thought usmash was faster?
wtf I should just grab then
What you say is true but it almost never happens and it is more reliable than trying to cover roll away from outside get up attack range imo
I'm not saying my way is better but I make it work with the reaction time/skillset I have and it is my personal best option

 

[ZoSo]

I'm not saying my way is better but I make it work

I don't want to argue about this, but if you're telling people how they "should" react in certain situations, then yes, you are saying your way is better. Sorry if I'm coming across as derisive or confrontational, but I just want to make sure you realize that.

Also, I actually employ the strategy you're describing sometimes if I think they'll getup attack, but I realize that it's not ideal, which is all I was saying.

I think you basically agree with what I posted, so I made my point.

 

[Tomacawk]

I think you basically agree with what I posted, so I made my point.

Yes I basically agree.

 

[FluxWolf]

darn no $100+ mm

 

[ZoSo]

darn no $100+ mm

Money match?

 

[FluxWolf]

can anyone say free money!!!

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

free money!!!!!

 

[`DNS`]

oos grab is frame 7 usmash is 8

i think

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

^yeah minimum. 7 frames + 1-3 (for jump animation, depending on when you cancel it)

 

[Scidadle]

My fox tech skill is insanely inconsistent. I do pretty good when it's just me practicing alone vs like a cpu or something but when it comes to a match my tech skill is really garbage.

Any advice?

 

[DtJ Jungle]

when you play people, play to learn not to win

like play to put those things in your game, figure out where they work and where they dont

 

[Scidadle]

It's not that. It's as if all my tech skill has like just gone away. I can't even waveshine forward to waveshine backwards half the time

I don't know if it just takes me forever to warm up or if my tech skill just blows

 

[voorhese]

It's not that. It's as if all my tech skill has like just gone away. I can't even waveshine forward to waveshine backwards half the time

I don't know if it just takes me forever to warm up or if my tech skill just blows

i warm up with mario (for every character)

 

[DtJ Jungle]

lol.

I warm up with falcon

 

[voorhese]

lol.

I warm up with falcon

why dude....trust me mario = warm up for any/everything

 

[Tomacawk]

voorhese you're dumb, gtfo. falcon is the best warmup character
scidadle you have to just keep playing. i think it's harder to deliver with tech skill against a real person because you get nervous knowing that unlike a computer, if you **** it up you can't just take a free hit and try again

 

[Scidadle]

Yeah, I guess. But it's so weird, I've done good before tech skill wise. I dunno. I'll just have to see how it unfolds.

 

[voorhese]

voorhese you're dumb, gtfo. falcon is the best warmup character
scidadle you have to just keep playing. i think it's harder to deliver with tech skill against a real person because you get nervous knowing that unlike a computer, if you **** it up you can't just take a free hit and try again

good players dont need to warmup!

 

[nyc_tag$]

good players dont need to warmup!

^^^this^^^

 

[Scidadle]

True.

But I'm not at the point where I am good enough to just jump right on and have perfect tech skill.