Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[voorhese]

two questions:

1. does using the shine as a recovery (momentum halter?) actually work / is effective?

2. if i cant upthrow uair doc, what are my best options?

i think that it works yah

and how can u not upthrow uair him?

 

[`DNS`]

shine doesn't really do anything to help recovery iirc

you'd be better off jumping instead

 

[Incronaut]

i think that it works yah

and how can u not upthrow uair him?

i dunno, in one of waffles' videos he says that if doc DIs right, upthrow -> uair wont land... i think in a KFC vs shroomed video it shows too

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Use the search button or look through the last few pages of threads. IIRC there was a thread devoted to what characters can and can't be true comboed by uthrow uair.

 

[`DNS`]

uthrow uair just doesn't work on mario doc or luigi

or peach or ganon

and im not sure about samus

[by "work" i mean "combo legitimately"]

 

[DtJ Jungle]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233453

this thread sveet?

 

[RaynEX]

Uthrow uair doesn't work on Mario/Doc/Luigi.

Contributing factors include: Weight, IASA stuff on the uthrow (related to weight)

Also, because they are thrown so high in the air (again due to weight), they have ample time to recover from hitstun and jump out before you get up there to hit them. I used to think that varying degrees of stun from the uthrow on certain characters explained this whole combo/not combo situation. Now I know its almost entirely weight and percent related. Uthrow stun doesn't change. (see "shine")

It doesn't combo on the Marios/Luigi even at 0. Your best bets would be to either follow them from below and go for a tricky uair, or avoid their move hitboxes and bair.
Generally, you should be primarily using waveshines push them near an edge and do fthrow/dsmash.

Another good way to get around this problem is waveshine->dash attack. Dash attack definitely combos into uair at certain percents.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

cant they nair out in addition to jumping out as well?

 

[RaynEX]

If you've noticed their habit of trying to hit you through your aerial attempts, it works more in your favour. Time the uair so it comes out mid DJ as opposed to the peak of your DJ. The hitbox is primarily above you, while Doc's nair doesn't have one particular direction or area of impact (it encompasses his body). Combination of better range and faster execution (potentially) will help you beat his nair clean.

(ESPECIALLY if you time it well enough so only the second hit connects) It'll train him to never try it again.

This early uair thing works really well on Luigis. For some reason, every single one is content with challenging a spaced uair with a slow, falling weak nair.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

they think their nair is sexy

 

[Incronaut]

If you've noticed their habit of trying to hit you through your aerial attempts, it works more in your favour. Time the uair so it comes out mid DJ as opposed to the peak of your DJ. The hitbox is primarily above you, while Doc's nair doesn't have one particular direction or area of impact (it encompasses his body). Combination of better range and faster execution (potentially) will help you beat his nair clean.

(ESPECIALLY if you time it well enough so only the second hit connects) It'll train him to never try it again.

This early uair thing works really well on Luigis. For some reason, every single one is content with challenging a spaced uair with a slow, falling weak nair.

thanks raynex... i think one of my biggest challenges right now is figuring out different options... i end up doing the same thing everytime -.-

speaking of which, if i get upthrown by marth, and im at mid-high percent... i generally second jump to avoid his (missed) fsmash, but then i always end up doing some aerial try to hit him in which he spaces and punishes me... but sine i already second jumped i dont see what else i can do... (would airdodge really help me?)

 

[DtJ Jungle]

you're just done.

dj against marth int he air =

 

[JPOBS]

if you second jumped vs marth, its almost always better to just land or waveland.

marths like to do stupid things like seem vulnerable, then you throw out a bair and they just DD grab you and then kill you.

if you burnt your DJ, just do nothing unless you're SURE you will hit.

 

[Incronaut]

how about if i dont DJ... should i hope the fsmash wont hit me then? what new options open up?

 

[RaynEX]

Double jump away from him and waveland away or just run away.

But if you're saying they've missed the fsmash during an easy uthrow combo (or they didn't know the percent or whatever), then there is no way you could be outspaced and punished. Fsmash has years of lag, and I'm sure the rest of the Fox boards can claim having been in the same situation millions of times. A flopped fsmash is more or less a free hit. If they CC to grab your falling aerial (which honestly isn't too anymore), then space the bair as you are falling, or dair instead.

If the Marth you are facing has magical, super-fast fsmash tactics... then your double jump options are the least of your worries.

The one thing I had to learn to change vs. Marth as I got better, was to stop mashing jump. Wait a split second to see what they will do. It becomes really easy to tell when it is too late for them to do anything. If you try jumping at the right times, then you won't waste your DJ anyways because they will simply hit you. If you're mashing it and/or DJing in a direction which makes the fsmash/follow-up easier to land...then you deserve to get hit. Generally speaking, if you jump at the right time and in the right direction (and this is ONLY if monstrously **** up their combo), then you should be fine and the aforementioned advice would be useful.

 

[Tomacawk]

ok well I can write up a little doc advice
uthrow should only be used if you plan to bair him for a kill around his choice of post uthrow actions or if you can platform chase him in a teching situation.
Dthrow to techchase can work, although I prefer fthrow.
doc is kinda goofy. dodge pills or trade them with ftilt. he doesn't really have a good approach at all. he has a high priority approach in his nair, but his horizontal movement is slow so you can jump,land and punish (pref. with bair/uair), or shield it early in his jump and punish it oos before he can land and l cancel it.
he can approach with bair but it's obvious if he's doing this.
he can approach with uair, which is very fast, but it has ****ty priority and doesn't really have a reward unless you fail to buffer something out of a grab, or if you survival DI and get kobe'd
also if he approaches and hits your shield, he's gunna cover his l cancel with jab, utilt, or dsmash (maybe even jab to dsmash). either wd oos backwards after it's safe or usmash oos after the jab/utilt. if you're getting shield poked by dsmash aim your shield down or lightshield and just don't punish it.
lasers own doc really hard. he has a huge advantage on edge guarding so try to stay on the map. edge guard CONSERVATIVELY. his up b will hit you really often on the ledge so space your bairs really well or ftilt or use invinci frames, but be careful not to get stage spiked.
if he's on the ledge, don't up b in range where he can ledge drop bair you, or you're dead regardless of % because he can dj and bair you again and sweetspot the ledge and just ledgehog you.
as far as camping doc goes, tink told me that if fox camps a platform near the edge with bair that doc can do nothing about it. I haven't tested this but it makes sense...all he has is uair or bair and you can just hop over it and land with your bair. if he comes from above you can just get off the platform and bair. if he tries to pill you you can jump over the pill and laser him
as long as you play patiently you can take doc, but if you're off the ledge a lot and approach him and get grabbed you're probably gunna lose

 

[FluxWolf]

very good doc advice

his up-b is a ***** sometimes..

also at low % pc christ taught me that if u notice they nair after ur u-throw, charge upsmash and they will land on it

 

[PK Webb]

Question i m tryin to put lasers into my gameplay but idk when laserin is needed....it seems to just get me hit when they approach.....so when they get close what r good options....any laser advice is very needed

 

[Tomacawk]

basically, you have to assume that if you're going to fire a laser, they will instantly run right at you. so think of where you're going to land as ground zero. if you're running away with a SHL, then ground zero is further than a stationary one. If they are in a position to get to ground zero if they choose to approach, it isn't safe to laser. You may laser anyway and they may not approach; but if you want to be safe you must be sure to laser only when ground zero cannot be reached by the opponent. Against falcon, for instance, I never laser more than 2 times in a row because a lot of falcons will come right at you, and if you commit to a laser at a bad time then you're going to be hit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5haisMvIpo
notice how when he began to advance on me after the 2nd laser, I quit lasering
now granted my fox isn't a very laser happy fox but I still grasp the concept of safety behind it--when in doubt, don't laser
the same goes with lasering on/onto platforms. if they can get under you before you land, don't do it.

 

[PK Webb]

Thanks for clearing that up so it used to force an approach and only do it from a safe distance away got it

 

[Mind_Assassins]

I don't know if this has already been suggested, but would edge-canceled lasers to the edge be useful for something?

 

[PK Webb]

I find edge cancellin very difficult wit fox but I think m2k does that and it looks pretty effective

 

[Mind_Assassins]

Hm, thx. I was trying it out, and it looks pretty useful if you integrate it with somekind of edge game.

 

[unknown522]

hey Otto, I hear that you're good vs falco with fox. Can you please teach me how to approach falco when he's camping under platforms?

 

[RaynEX]

Next time you're going tech skill crazy guys

Crank this **** up

http://www.youtube.com/user/RaynEX1719#p/f/10/RPYzgCI6Q1I

 

[PK Webb]

How do ppl shine then instant nair...do they control syick up or something...I can't think of a way to do it

 

[Milos]

i do down b, flick the control stick up, press A, fastfall, L-cancel

 

[RaynEX]

When I started playing (even from N64) I did all my jumping with the control stick. If you can SH with the control stick its the fastest way to nair shine.

Now I do them with Y and it works fine. Shine -> choose your jump method -> press A

Its not really all that complicated. Just take what you can do personally, and apply it with some practice. Doing it between stocks during friendlies helps alot too.

 

[Tomacawk]

I actually used to nair shine with up on the control stick but as I got faster I began using Y because it's more consistent
i can still do both. my nair shines with control stick are really close to frame perfection but when I do them on people I fastfall too fast so basically I show off with control stick but use Y in game lol

 

[PK Webb]

Well I naturally us x but ill try that control stick stuff....I can only use y to shdl

 

[ArcNatural]

When I started playing (even from N64) I did all my jumping with the control stick. If you can SH with the control stick its the fastest way to nair shine.

Now I do them with Y and it works fine. Shine -> choose your jump method -> press A

Its not really all that complicated. Just take what you can do personally, and apply it with some practice. Doing it between stocks during friendlies helps alot too.

This actually fails for me, Since I hit B with the middle of my thumb and Y with the tip, I can hit them both practically instantly, and doing them in between stocks slowly makes me end up doing them too fast when it matters.

 

[Milos]

yea if i get tooo used to doing it without hitlag i get ****ed when im nair shine nairing shields.

control stick is most consistent for me

t webb you should try to remove x from your gameplay as much as possible, y is way more practically positioned especially as fox since you cant slide off B unless you're in shine, because you'll press A but when you're in shine it doesnt matter cause you cant do A attacks

 

[`DNS`]

i use x for wavedashing and it works fine

 

[ArcNatural]

i use x for wavedashing and it works fine

The best way I can describe the difference between X and Y is how much time you feel you have between moves.

I used X for my first 2 years or so playing melee, then switched to Y like 7 months ago.

I could sh nair shine spam with Fox with X, but I had to move my fingers super fast every single time, trying to delay the nair was really hard.

With Y, it seems like I have forever to hit A after the SH. For me it's much easier to make small changes on the fly.

It does cause some issues though, mainly needing to relearn muscle memory for wavedashing/oos stuff. OOS took me forever to get back consistently.

 

[`DNS`]

well i use Y for everything and always have
except wavedashing

 

[RaynEX]

fun fact

hbox uses Z and the control stick for everything. He wavedashes with the control stick, and does aerials with Z (and L cancels with Z)

its funny because you see him wiggling his thumb and hitting Z like 50 times. Hilarious

 

[Lovage]

doc is gay

hmw ***** the **** out of me last weekend (but i destroyed shroomed so its all good, cuz shroomed is noob)

right SCAR

 

[ChivalRuse]

Hbox is technical with Puff. I didn't think it was possible!

 

[Tomacawk]

wtf
control stick and Z, LOL that's soooo inefficient
good thing he plays puff =O

 

[unknown522]

doc is gay

hmw ***** the **** out of me last weekend (but i destroyed shroomed so its all good, cuz shroomed is noob)

right SCAR

drill -> shine combos son (though I didn't do them on HMW......lol). I dunno if you saw that set, it was gay as ****.

edit: lovage, teach me the ways to approach/beat campy falco