Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Rubyiris]

my point is that his tech skill in some ways helps more than camping, if u rely on camping and they get through it sucks

you should never fully rely on one strategy. camping is supposed to force the other player to approach. when they're commited to an approach fox and falco has more freedom to punish them without having to worry about THEIR approach being eaten alive.

Again, his technical skill, though entertaining to watch, is inefficient. He should focus on being a more efficient player.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

i learned to drillshine and shine bair before i learned how to lcancel against someone's shield.

don't take the same route that i did. i still suck.

 

[GOD!]

What do you guys think about shinegrab? That's what I'm calling it, jc grab from shine.
It seems no one uses it at all. I've seen two players use it ever and one of them is mango with falco. I think lucky did too.

But I mean grab works so well against the entire cast, it seems like grabbing would be more valuable then nairing again or trying to shine them again. Of course there's a window to get grabbed from it, but it seems like a great mix-up that no one uses.

And I know this is none of my business, but lovage why do you have to be a jerk to rubyiris? It's uncalled for and makes you look really immature.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

because no one really shield grabs when you are getting fox nair shined (by a good fox anyway). People tend to buffer rolls or Shine oos, which is much more reliable.

i actually just talked to SCOTU about this


7:54:51 PM SCOTU: shine has iirc 3 frames of advantage
7:54:57 PM SCOTU: uh, yeah, it's 3
7:55:04 PM SCOTU: and grab hits on 7
7:55:06 PM SCOTU: well
7:55:07 PM SCOTU: 8
7:55:10 PM SCOTU: for the JC
7:55:15 PM Jungle Fever: right
7:55:19 PM SCOTU: so there's 5 frames of a gap
7:55:21 PM Jungle Fever: and buffering a roll?
7:55:46 PM SCOTU: spot dodge is invincible on frame 2, roll on frame 4, and shine on 4
7:55:57 PM SCOTU: meaning, you don't even need to buffer those
7:56:01 PM Jungle Fever: you just need to get it out
7:56:03 PM Jungle Fever: i see
7:56:06 PM SCOTU: as there's a 2 frame window (more in case of spot dodge)



its still a good mix up though.


also i believe its possible to shield di the the nair and shine so that the grab wont reach, thus you have committed to the grab, meaning get *****,

 

[KAOSTAR]

I think shinegrab "is a good mix up."-Scumfever

Frame wise its not optimal.

But from what Im hearing about human reaction speed being around 10-15 frames, its pushin it. I think its hard to deal with on reaction so keep it a surprise.

 

[Tomacawk]

lol me and fever just talked about this. i think people should do it more but I didn't know you could actually buffer stuff out of it

 

[JPeGImage]

i learned to drillshine and shine bair before i learned how to lcancel against someone's shield.

don't take the same route that i did. i still suck.

dont say that! im sure that the meta game, a year from now, will make l-cancelling completely obsolete . . . the game will be PURELY offensive, no defensive tactics used whatsoeva!


. . . so this is what it feels like to troll someone. . . . . i like it!

 

[Rubyiris]

i wish people would roll away from me when i shield pressure them. i hate getting shield grabbed. :|

 

[LumpyCPU...]

TROLL ME HARDER, NOOB
haha

i see zhu's falco do shinegrabs. i used to do them with falco after lasers.

i think shinegrabs are great because i never see them punished.
not to say they can't be punished... but yeah...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i wish people would roll away from me when i shield pressure them. i hate getting shield grabbed. :|

You still get shield grabbed?

 

[Evil Nemesis]

You still get shield grabbed?

they can grab you after you shine, unless you double shine.

thought that was common knowledge.

 

[RaynEX]

they can grab you after you shine, unless you double shine.

thought that was common knowledge.

If you hit with your aerial low enough on their shield they can't shield grab you. After the first dair shine, most people SH and do the second dair really high on the opponent's body. This beats shield grabs, but if blocked... it hits really high on the shield and they have more than enough time to grab you on the way down. (before you shine)

This is why Mango does things like dair -> shine -> SH oos -> early nair d.i. backwards -> bait grab into something.

If you want to perform some true shield pressure, wait a bit longer after your shine and SH, and perform your aerial a bit lower. If you wait too long, they'll just shield grab you out of your SH. Timing is crucial.

 

[PK Webb]

Do u players of smash believe that music helps ur tech skillz....like when I play music and don't hear controllers tappin at the speed of light I think I play better...does any1 else feel the same

 

[Silent Wolf]

depends how distracting the song is

 

[PK Webb]

Like for mw songs that help r
Nas: the message
Jayz alica keys: empire state of mind
Jayz rihanna kanye: run this town
Ronald Jenkees: disorganized fun
Crossfade: cold
Breaking benjamin: cold

 

[PK Webb]

Sry bout the double post my phones internet messed up

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

music is pretty good

i remember kels went to one of my tournaments and spend the whole time listening to the mortal kombat theme on loop

 

[EC_Joey]

Classical music.

Chopin is perfect for Fox.

 

[Lovage]

and if they start catching on to your really low bair/nair shield pressure they can counter it with an aerial oos. fly amanita was doing this to me with his popo, using bair oos when i did the same type of low hitting shield pressure.

if someone catches on and starts countering it you have to change it up, a high bair/nair will hit them out of their jump if they try to punish oos too early.

 

[Tomacawk]

yo so I've been trying to find mix-ups to do on people's shields, and i stumbled across shine turn retreating non fastfell bair. you land out of grab range (maybenot against marf tho) and although they can wd oos they can't do so in a manner to punish you and it puts you in a strong position, and most people wont wd oos because you can't really forsee such a goofy shield pressure
and it looks cool

 

[DtJ Jungle]

i love goofy shield pressure

nairshine wavedash back stand.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

replace stand with jab and you got a real match!!!! hehe

 

[Rubyiris]

i love goofy shield pressure

nairshine wavedash back stand.

I do something similar to this.

Drill/Nair > Shine > Wavedash back > Jab

or

Drill/Nair > Shine > Wavedash back > stand > react.

 

[battousai555]

replace stand with jab and you got a real match!!!! hehe

Yeah, I do this quite a bit (obviously not TOO much b/c I'd get predicted and *****) and it seems like as long as you WD far enough back to space the jab rly well it's pretty good.

 

[RaynEX]

and if they start catching on to your really low bair/nair shield pressure they can counter it with an aerial oos. fly amanita was doing this to me with his popo, using bair oos when i did the same type of low hitting shield pressure.

if someone catches on and starts countering it you have to change it up, a high bair/nair will hit them out of their jump if they try to punish oos too early.

Yeah, you're the only one to point this out. While low hitting pressure is assloads safer in theory, it doesn't mean your opponent can't simply call you for it and hit you while you're hanging in the air, spacing yourself for that low hit. I've been watching way too many Mango videos, and after playing him myself I stole one or two things from him regarding pressure.

I used to go tech skill crazy. My mind was on simply nair shining until I either got a hit or knockdown. I would sometimes mix in a dair after a nair or two for different shield stun properties to help me break their defenses. It worked alot, but felt really repetitive and I didn't feel my mind working.

After I land a shine on my opponents shield, I don't ever do more than two nair shines. Once you see that they know how to block, you can feel pretty comfortable about manuevering around their shield to mix them up and get a grab or something.

-aerial-> shine, Sh backwards oos with correct spacing, turnaround utilt

-aerial->shine, aerial->shine, fullhop escape/waveland onto platform/fullhop fastfall over them, continue pressure from behind

blah blah blah

A safe, knowledged Fox on that pressha **** is so scary.

 

[Lovage]

i think the most important aspect of shield pressure is taking note of what your opponent does to it. there's no one correct way to do it.

meaning, if they sit in their shield and wait for you to mess up for a shield grab, try a shinegrab after the first low spaced nair.

if they roll behind you after you space a nair high, wavedash back after the shine and wait to see if they roll. if they don't, you can still probably run up with another nair and continue pressuring or hit them out of a jump.

if you're playing a shine-oos happy fox (replicate,) space your nair/bair just out of their shine's range, so you can bait it out and punish with a nair.

and then there's some people who get scared by low bair shine shield pressure and just sit there till they get poked lol.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Lovage, what do you do when you hit (the shield of) an upsmash-oos happy Fox like PC?

Shinegrab?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i would just get behind the shield to avoid the usmash or shield->usmash OOS back at him lol (not sure if that works tho... XD)

 

[ChivalRuse]

If you nair their shield and then just shield without shining, you're going to get shield grabbed. >_>

Also, if you nair past their shield and land behind them, the shieldstun will go away faster because your nair will hit earlier and they will be able to shine you oos guaranteed, I think. They might even be able to bair you before your shine if they're fast enough.

Anyway, shielding an upsmash -> upsmash oos only works if you're mashed up against them, I believe. Significant shieldpush.

 

[Zolios]

What's the best stage counterpick for Fox against Marth? Consider my opponent M2K where if I get grabbed on FD I lose a stock, if you would.

Is shine --> shorthop aerial useful for shield pressuring? It just seems to me that there is alot of room for error.

What are some good applications for the f-air and d-air?

How to avoid Jigg's spacie combo? (uthrow - rest)

How do I effectively use d-throw?

Should I use a waveshine against characters who are lighter then marth? (Tech chase maybe?)

 

[ChivalRuse]

What's the best stage counterpick for Fox against Marth? Consider my opponent M2K where if I get grabbed on FD I lose a stock, if you would.

Stadium is usually a good bet.

Cruise and KJ64 also give you a slight advantage.

Marth fairs well on neutrals. YS, FD, BF, and FoD are pretty favorable for him.

DL64 can be in your favor. However, if he grabs you enough, it's still very easy for him to win.

Is shine --> shorthop aerial useful for shield pressuring? It just seems to me that there is alot of room for error.

It's useful. I wouldn't worry too much about mastering it if you're still somewhat new to Fox, but in the long run it will help you a lot.

If you haven't yet, you should become competent at waveshining first. It's easier anyhow.

What are some good applications for the f-air and d-air?

Don't worry about incorporating fair into your game really. It's not worth it. Just realize that nair >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fair.

Dair is good on characters who are hard to uthrow uair combo and against people who tend to crouch cancel. In general, your opponent can not CC drill shines, so if you catch them CCing, you get a free waveshine upsmash / grab.

How to avoid Jigg's spacie combo? (uthrow - rest)

Pretty obvious: don't get grabbed. But everyone gets grabbed. Just try to DI it so that rest doesn't combo. At medium percents, always DI it away so that you die off the side and can respawn quicky enough to punish the rest with a charged upsmash.

Lots of Jiggs players will wavedash back and grab you when you nair. Try to nair farther than you would usually to counter this (if you have a good feeling the Jiggs is camping for a grab).

How do I effectively use d-throw?

It's not terrible against the characters who can jump out of uthrow uair. Mario, Doc, Luigi, and Samus are the notable ones. Most people will tech the dthrow, so if you feel they'll tech away from you, run forward and upsmash them out of the tech roll.

Should I use a waveshine against characters who are lighter then marth? (Tech chase maybe?)

I'm assuming you mean the characters whom the shine knocks onto the ground. It's always good to have someone knocked down. Their options are limited and your chances of following it up are high. You probably already know about thunders combo, but if not, here's an example of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIGVJFkVKCQ

 

[Zolios]

Well yes, I can basically use any fox technique effectively and consistently. It's more of it's application that I'm questioning heavily. I haven't exactly played a plethora of professionals...or even one.

Also is the jc shine usmash useful at all? I can never think of anyway to incorporate it into my playstyle. Same with the S2B, although that's more for show.

Another very important question. How do I recover against Marth, Sheik, Falco, Jiggs, or Ganon (uair in particular)?

 

[FluxWolf]

against pc u just gotta lose thats all hahaha

against noobs who try to grab when u go past their sheild with nair, clown them with instant shine turnaround CHARGED up smash and punish their missed grab LOL. Aaand if u think they are gonna roll backwards u dont even have to turn around u can just start charging an u smash and they will run into it.

also tech chasing with shine turnaround charge u smash is raaaape because a lot of ppl roll toward the middle when near the edge and u can just be there before them

but thats just stuff to try out in friendlys lol

my main strat is to just stay within rolling distance of the opponent at all times tho then their sheild is just always so low they cant even use it =D

then whats the need 2 camp it out haha

but that mainly just works vs ppl who stay on the ground or platforms a lot not against chars who can fly like puff XD

 

[Zolios]

Also I've noticed that Fox's dash through is amazing. This can be very applicable against peach. I've found that I can accurately time a catch well. Would it be possible to put this amazing throw to use?

Also forgot another one. Is there any way to use the up-b or over-b as an attack? I've found that they can actually lead to some combos, but I don't know if there's a better solution.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I wouldn't advise you to use firefox or illusion to attack. That ain't Brawl!

 

[unknown522]

i like to illusion at marth randomly in friendlies when they play like ******s. They usually have bad reaction time. It's really funny.

i think the most important aspect of shield pressure is taking note of what your opponent does to it. there's no one correct way to do it.

meaning, if they sit in their shield and wait for you to mess up for a shield grab, try a shinegrab after the first low spaced nair.

if they roll behind you after you space a nair high, wavedash back after the shine and wait to see if they roll. if they don't, you can still probably run up with another nair and continue pressuring or hit them out of a jump.

if you're playing a shine-oos happy fox (replicate,) space your nair/bair just out of their shine's range, so you can bait it out and punish with a nair.

and then there's some people who get scared by low bair shine shield pressure and just sit there till they get poked lol.

This is a good post.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

i use shine jc usmash if i can predict a techroll away and itll kill.

 

[Lovage]

shine usmash

-makes you look cool
-kills %5 earlier

it's pretty good

 

[DtJ Jungle]

****in right

also

shine up air

that **** is more useful than anything

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

trollfever your avi is smexy