Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[SuSa]

I think Falco has a pretty hard time grabbing MK. Even if that match-up got worse it wouldn't matter since everyone else has a better match-up.

Characters like Snake would counter MK with a handicap. How is that nothing and how is it stupid? Do you think he shouldn't be nerfed?

So everyone would be forced to pick up Snake?

The fact it nerfs him in some matchups and buffs him in others is stupid.

It also turns into an auto-plank if you play Wario. Great, you ALREADY HAVE THE % ADVANTAGE. Just plank hard.

EDIT:
@Art
Reread your post, don't see your point.

@Chibo
You mean D3 on his CP's (EG: We must win Game 1+3 if we want to win...), more Olimars (MK is a bad matchup IIRC), and more Falco's (whom everyone seems to think counters Snake)

I personally don't see Snake dropping more then a spot or two, but I already feel he should drops those spots so it doesn't matter anyways.

 

[Fatmanonice]

i did, and it took me 35 min or so and 2.5 pages worth of thread creation to read it. but it was a good read.

EDIT, in responce to the wifi noob thing...
I dont even think Mk is the best character on wifi. theres much gayer stuff that characters can do on wifi

He's not. On wifi (under "ideal conditions), Snake is the best character with Olimar not being too far behind.

i agree with all the other ppl that dont want MK ban becuase MK can still be beaten by even low tier characters and yeah if we ban MK then we will lose alot of brawlers M2K might even quit

These are two arguements I'm sick of hearing:

1. This is basically arguing that tiers don't matter. Granted, it's an ideal but, in higher levels of competition, it becomes more and more accurate. With this being said, low tiers beating high tiers is going to be very rare outside of local tournaments unless the skill of the two players is extremelly unbalanced in favor of one of them.

2. Who cares if Metaknight players quit? It's their loss if they want to be babies about it and deny themselves the oppurtunity to win money. Oh no, they all of a sudden can't use the best character in the game with the lowest learning curve. Sucks to be them. They can always go with people like Olimar, Mr. Game and Watch, and ROB who are just about as easy to learn/play as. If they're real competitive players, they'll adapt and pick someone else.

Regarding Mew2King, he's called the best Brawl player in the world, I think he can manage another character, don't you? He used to play as King Dedede, why not go back to him? God, if he's as talented as everyone says he is then he shouldn't have a problem picking up just about any character and still dominate tournaments. I'm sorry but he denys himself the potential thousands of dollars he makes each year from tournaments just because he's so attached to one character then he is the biggest moron on this forum.

 

[Quik17]

I'm against the ban, but I have a question to the pro-ban side. Why don't you use MK's dominance in doubles as an argument? Almost every top placing team has at least one MK on the team, and it seems that MK is even more dominant in doubles than he is in singles.

*Sorry if this has been brought up but I don't feel like reading through over 80 pages just to find it.

 

[Praxis]

If the handicap was significant enough to make Snake into an MK counter, then I actually wouldn't be that opposed to it, but it seems like a stupid decision. How do we decide on the right percent? And a lot of characters actually find their matchups little improved. Marth loses fthrow > tipper, Peach loses her CG, Falco loses his CG..

SuSa's point of an auto-plank for Wario is valid too.

But then again, that'd make Wario a MK counter, which isn't so bad. xD

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

:flame:
Hey, Susa? You'll probably find me an idiot for saying this, but is anyone else put in a worse position for "handicaping" Metaknight? I understand that Falco loses his Chain Grab on him, but how would the rest of the cast fair if Metaknight found himself with 60% of his stock already brused up (assuming Metaknight falls at 100% damage, which isn't exactly true, but just a good reference point)? 'm not trying to make a point here. I'm just asking out of pure curiosity.

Also, what if someone was OCD enough to be willing to physically gather votes in a thread? It would be quite a huge burden, and it would take a long time for it to be done, but again, when someone comes along later and puts a shotgun in our mouths and blows our minds, people might find themselves with a different stance on the issue.
:flame:

 

[Blacknight99923]

I'm against the ban, but I have a question to the pro-ban side. Why don't you use MK's dominance in doubles as an argument? Almost every top placing team has at least one MK on the team, and it seems that MK is even more dominant in doubles than he is in singles.

*Sorry if this has been brought up but I don't feel like reading through over 80 pages just to find it.

g&W bucket is fair cheaper in doubles then MK however it can only be consistently done in doubles as well

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

EDIT:
@Art
Reread your post, don't see your point.

Originally Posted by BIGM1994 View Post
Some people just vote ban mk for no reason, they simpley say "i dont really care anyways so i voted ban him"


YOU FOOLS.

I was just giving an example about a guy who voted on the first thread that shouldn't have. It was to point out that there are people like that in both sides of the issue.


I don't see how much clearer I can get I don't even play wifi if that helps you...

 

[Kamikaze*]

Fatmanonice, I know that you did not just say that olimar is easy to learn. GwaW and ROB defintely, but oli?

 

[theONEjanitor]

the brawl community is a bunch of ******* that don't take the game seriously enough to learn how to play it

who cares if MK gets banned, this games going to die anyway because you guys never took it seriously to begin with.

lol @ this community. L M F A O @ us having four ****ing polls based on "OMG I DONT NO HOW 2 BEAT DIS CHARCTER PLZ BAN HIM"

seriously?

lmfao at this community.

also lol @ this being decided by a smashboards poll. swf is 90 percent scrubs lmfao

*shakes head*. I'm just going to take up chess.

RIP brawl
you had potential...too bad you were played by a bunch of planking *******

 

[Orion*]

That 20-40% handicap would do nothing. Handicapping characters is probably one of the stupidest things I've heard of.

Did you know that 20-40% allows MK to avoid Falco's CG, actually letting him keep less damage?

Hey look, he just got buffed.

i think that handicapping mk is awful and ********. but the example you used was garbage.....

falcos main problem in that matchup (aside from gimping wich is stating the obvious) is that once mk gets a % lead he can camp like a *****. if falco has lets say a 20% lead he can still chain grab mk.... if falco has a 40% i wouldnt even give a ****, just start camping lazers because its like you got a free cg without actually having to do any of work or taking the risk of getting a grab.

its not like falco is going to get a stock or much more of a significant lead. id take a 40% lead vs fighting an mk with falco anyday.
let me not mention that aside from the matchup and example you chose being completely wrong, it was also just way to specific to be considered. that would be ONE matchup where its a bad thing, whereas all the other huge mass of this characters would be fine.

although, if i where to give mk a handicap i would give him 10%. this gives other characters a % lead at the start of the match forcing mk to at least approach once.

 

['V']

I mean.. not to really defend M2K or anything, but if I had played Meta Knight for a long and put all of my effort into him just to have him banned even though he can still lose, I'd be pretty pissed off.

Just saying..

 

[The_Bear735]

Fatmanonice, I know that you did not just say that olimar is easy to learn. GwaW and ROB defintely, but oli?

you're forgetting that it's wifi

and imo ROB is harder to learn

 

[Kamikaze*]

I mean.. not to really defend M2K or anything, but if I had played Meta Knight for a long and put all of my effort into just to have him banned even though he can still lose, I'd be pretty pissed off.

Just saying..

Someone who sees it my way. Banning MK is like "**** you. we don't give a **** about the effort you put in, so start over with another character"

 

[CO18]

Someone who sees it my way. Banning MK is like "**** you. we don't give a **** about the effort you put in, so start over with another character"

It can also be seen as "**** you we dont give a **** about the effort your put into your character and vs mk just to lose to him anyway, so start over with mk or snake."

 

[SuSa]

i think that handicapping mk is awful and ********. but the example you used was garbage.....

falcos main problem in that matchup (aside from gimping wich is stating the obvious) is that once mk gets a % lead he can camp like a *****. if falco has lets say a 20% lead he can still chain grab mk.... if falco has a 40% i wouldnt even give a ****, just start camping lazers because its like you got a free cg without actually having to do any of work or taking the risk of getting a grab.

its not like falco is going to get a stock or much more of a significant lead. id take a 40% lead vs fighting an mk with falco anyday.
let me not mention that aside from the matchup and example you chose being completely wrong, it was also just way to specific to be considered. that would be ONE matchup where its a bad thing, whereas all the other huge mass of this characters would be fine.

although, if i where to give mk a handicap i would give him 10%. this gives other characters a % lead at the start of the match forcing mk to at least approach once.

Because breaking how a defensive game is supposed to be played is obviously what we want.

MK is forced to approach once anyways if he wants to win, otherwise say hello to stalemate. If he approaches you once and already did damage without getting punished, guess what. He can do it 3-4 more times then plank. It's not changing anything and is only putting a stupid limit on a character.

I'm more for a ban then a stupid handicap that would turn many matches into "let's plank for the next 8 minutes just because we can". I'm also Anti-Ban, so that's saying something there.

"Oh noes, getting a grab is too harddd"
Well to ****ing bad? It's not like it's impossible. How about wait for your openings better? Set it up better? You eventually do get a grab.. recreate that situation so you can get a grab.

The whole "handicap" just screams "omfg make it so much easier on us because we suck at actually playing the game!"

 

[Remzi]

Arturo, your sig is amazing:

Let me just ask something.

In a game not made for competitive play, nay a game where the developers themselves trie their hardest to make the game unfit for competitive play where stages and items and even STRATEGIES (planking/ledge camping) must be banned for the game to be competitive. Is it really such a stretch to think that you might need to ban a character too?

Loooool this. So much this.

 

[PikaPika!]

Someone who sees it my way. Banning MK is like "**** you. we don't give a **** about the effort you put in, so start over with another character"

This should not be a factor at all in deciding whether or not you ban a character.

 

[Shiri]

I doubt this will be answered by anyone, but I just want to give it a shot.

Why do people keep saying that other characters will be headed for the chopping block after Meta Knight gets banned? I can't see any real feasible way for this to happen even in some wild imaginings I've been coming up with. Snake is good, but many players feel that he has matchups that aren't auto-wins for him and some players feel that Snake as a character leaves a few things (a few) to be desired. If that's truly the next best character after Meta Knight, I don't think there is too much to worry about.

Why do people keep trying to compare Meta Knight to SF4 Sagat or characters from other fighting games? I am especially worried about the comparisons to SF4 Sagat and somehow the attempted comparisons to nu-13 from BlazBlue. I don't want to inundate this with my own opinion, but I think anybody who actually plays Street Fighter 4 seriously in a competitive environment, follows tournament play of differing levels, has experience with the Street Fighter franchise and engages in healthy discussion with other informed members of the community will tell you that Sagat may very well be the best character in the game on paper, but that his superiority there doesn't necessarily translate into the game's biggest threat, much less needing the banhammer. Heck, Seth is a more qualified candidate for getting banned and he does poop damage with really unsafe normals and has extremely low health and stun tolerances. If he is actually banworthy or not is a different matter, but I hope you can see where I'm coming from with this statement. I think comparing Meta Knight to characters from other franchises is a catch-all argument that people need to stop making; they take quick peeks at tier lists for games they haven't played or played seriously or studied seriously and begin to namedrop characters. Please stop doing this; there really is no concrete comparison to be made.

In the end, I hope everyone realizes that the TOs are the ones who will ultimately affect this situation at a ground level. Nothing is more important in the eyes of a TO than the success of their tournaments and the happiness of their participants. To all the tournament players, I hope you realize that your TOs make it possible for you to enjoy this game, regardless of whether or not you make money off of it. To all the TOs, I hope you realize how much power you actually wield under these circumstances; you have the authority to do what you think is good and right for your participants--you are under no duty to appease them, but you are vested with the ability to change the way your participants play this game. Whatever happens, I hope people will respect the final decisions of their TOs and will continue to support their local tournaments.

 

[Ripple]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tful07RJU5U&feature=channel_page

for those of you who can't take a joke, please don't post

 

[The_Game]

against ban

 

[Roxas M]

I doubt this will be answered by anyone, but I just want to give it a shot.

Why do people keep saying that other characters will be headed for the chopping block after Meta Knight gets banned? I can't see any real feasible way for this to happen even in some wild imaginings I've been coming up with. Snake is good, but many players feel that he has matchups that aren't auto-wins for him and some players feel that Snake as a character leaves a few things (a few) to be desired. If that's truly the next best character after Meta Knight, I don't think there is too much to worry about.

Why do people keep trying to compare Meta Knight to SF4 Sagat or characters from other fighting games? I am especially worried about the comparisons to SF4 Sagat and somehow the attempted comparisons to nu-13 from BlazBlue. I don't want to inundate this with my own opinion, but I think anybody who actually plays Street Fighter 4 seriously in a competitive environment, follows tournament play of differing levels, has experience with the Street Fighter franchise and engages in healthy discussion with other informed members of the community will tell you that Sagat may very well be the best character in the game on paper, but that his superiority there doesn't necessarily translate into the game's biggest threat, much less needing the banhammer. Heck, Seth is a more qualified candidate for getting banned and he does poop damage with really unsafe normals and has extremely low health and stun tolerances. If he is actually banworthy or not is a different matter, but I hope you can see where I'm coming from with this statement. I think comparing Meta Knight to characters from other franchises is a catch-all argument that people need to stop making; they take quick peeks at tier lists for games they haven't played or played seriously or studied seriously and begin to namedrop characters. Please stop doing this; there really is no concrete comparison to be made.

In the end, I hope everyone realizes that the TOs are the ones who will ultimately affect this situation at a ground level. Nothing is more important in the eyes of a TO than the success of their tournaments and the happiness of their participants. To all the tournament players, I hope you realize that your TOs make it possible for you to enjoy this game, regardless of whether or not you make money off of it. To all the TOs, I hope you realize how much power you actually wield under these circumstances; you have the authority to do what you think is good and right for your participants--you are under no duty to appease them, but you are vested with the ability to change the way your participants play this game. Whatever happens, I hope people will respect the final decisions of their TOs and will continue to support their local tournaments.

i don't know why people think that. banning mk will not cause a landslide effect.
and mk doesn't have anything to do with street fighter or any other competitive fighting game.

 

[Big O]

So everyone would be forced to pick up Snake?

The fact it nerfs him in some matchups and buffs him in others is stupid.

It also turns into an auto-plank if you play Wario. Great, you ALREADY HAVE THE % ADVANTAGE. Just plank hard.

Tbh I don't think there is any character that would do worse against a MK with a 30% handicap. Falco's cg would do like 40 damage if he grabs at 0 so even then it would be about the same.

You make it sound like the only way Wario beats MK is planking/stalling with the % lead. If that is really how Wario's play and win in that match his play style is a non-issue. He would have a better match-up vs MK no matter what style he uses which is good and the objective of shifting MK's match-ups more in favor of his opponents is accomplished.

Snake was just an example of a counter with the handicap in place. He wouldn't be the only one and MK would also have some more even match-ups like DK and D3. 20-40% less damage racking and being 20-40% closer to KO% every stock helps more than you probably think it does.

Btw thanks for the discussion.

 

[shlike]

k

1. Handicapping any character (including metaknight) is absolutely ******** in every single way, who ever originally suggested this, go bang your head on the nearest wall for a couple of hours to get the suck out of your mind.

a) it would destroy certain characters low pecent options on metaknight (falco's cg being a HUGE one) but then you'd say k no handicap for falco's which leads to more useless and irrelevant discussion.

This is a ban metaknight thread, not "Omg! lets handicap metaknight!" thread

2. Metaknight has a learning curve of 1 or 2 at most

although it does suck to have your main banned, I mean come on, How hard was it to learn him to begin with... "AMAGAD TOO MANY JUMPS, TOO MANY OPTIONS, TOO MANY GOD TIER MOVES,

Come on grow up.


Metaknight has to go and everyone knows it. SBR please stop stalling.

 

[Clouderz]

this is stupid, all the noobs who cant beat mk cuz their bad at this game are crying cuz their character has major disadvantages against mk so they will auto vote for pro ban

Ridiculous.
think about this,
MK has the most chance of beating ally, if u ban mk, ally is just gonna keep on winning and then everyone is gonna wanna ban snake. DURRRRR

Its the player not the character

 

[Kokaloo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tful07RJU5U&feature=channel_page

for those of you who can't take a joke, please don't post

God I love Banjo-Kazooie.

 

[The_Bear735]

MK has the most chance of beating ally, if u ban mk, ally is just gonna keep on winning and then everyone is gonna wanna ban snake. DURRRRR

Its the player not the character

that's quite possibly the worst proposed string of events that would lead into a Snake ban that I've ever read, ever. l2troll moar

 

['V']

It can also be seen as "**** you we dont give a **** about the effort your put into your character and vs mk just to lose to him anyway, so start over with mk or snake."

Well then.. The Brawl people are just screwed either way then. Aren't they?

Either way, I don't play Brawl competitively anymore, but I do play friendlies and watch enough to know what's going on in a fight.

It was supposed to be fun. And it's not..

 

[CO18]

this is stupid, all the noobs who cant beat mk cuz their bad at this game are crying cuz their character has major disadvantages against mk so they will auto vote for pro ban

Ridiculous.
think about this,
MK has the most chance of beating ally, if u ban mk, ally is just gonna keep on winning and then everyone is gonna wanna ban snake. DURRRRR

Its the player not the character

That makes no sense. And D3 beats snake worse... ONE Mk has beaten Ally and thats m2k.. and If Mk was banned and M2k used D3 vs ally in no time theyd be going back and forth etc.

Ally has lost to Seibrik's and My D3 in mms, Has lost to Mikehaze,Hunger,sk92,azen in tourney etc...

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Arturo, your sig is amazing:



Loooool this. So much this.

That post was actually ignored when he said it so i felt it needed to be sigged so at least people could ask them selfs that.

 

[Clouderz]

That makes no sense. And D3 beats snake worse... ONE Mk has beaten Ally and thats m2k.. and If Mk was banned and M2k used D3 vs ally in no time theyd be going back and forth etc.

Ally has lost to Seibrik's and My D3 in mms, Has lost to Mikehaze,Hunger,sk92,azen in tourney etc...

cool story bro

anyways, nothing like this would happen in melee becuase its a better game with no crying little female dogs

 

[Fraser]

this is stupid, all the noobs who cant beat mk cuz their bad at this game are crying cuz their character has major disadvantages against mk so they will auto vote for pro ban

Ridiculous.
think about this,
MK has the most chance of beating ally, if u ban mk, ally is just gonna keep on winning and then everyone is gonna wanna ban snake. DURRRRR

Its the player not the character

Really then how come according to the stats he takes home 30% of the winnings? and places in 22% of the tourney spots. Are you suggesting that the majority of MK mains are simply better players because they take home the most money. Thats absolutely ridiculous while there are more MK players they take home more of the pot then they have players. (22% of tourney placing =/= 30% of the winnings. Surely with a basic bit of math you can see thats its not the players but the character. Unless of course you're suggesting that most MK mains tend to be better players in general which is ludacris because its immposible to prove and very unlikely that all the good players would main MK. Your argument is also invalid because of the rise of counterpicking MK. If it truly was the player they wouldn't need to counterpick him to win. DUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRR

 

[Tekk]

this is stupid, all the noobs who cant beat mk cuz their bad at this game are crying cuz their character has major disadvantages against mk so they will auto vote for pro ban

He's right.
A ganon placed better than him in a Canadian tournament months ago.
get ***** :/

Anyways I voted for the ban because pro-bans arguments convinced me, and I personally think that MK makes the secondaries/the counterpicks stages useless.
Even if we can beat him if we're better than our opponent, if he's better than us, we can't counter him at all.

 

[KENYU]

lmao he ignores facts and continues to troll

 

[Ripple]

why the hell did sakurai say he would not patch this game? better yet, why did he purposefully make this game non competative?

 

[Clouderz]

Really then how come according to the stats he takes home 30% of the winnings? and places in 22% of the tourney spots. Are you suggesting that the majority of MK mains are simply better players because they take home the most money. Thats absolutely ridiculous while there are more MK players they take home more of the pot then they have players. (22% of tourney placing =/= 30% of the winnings. Surely with a basic bit of math you can see thats its not the players but the character. Unless of course you're suggesting that most MK mains tend to be better players in general which is ludacris because its immposible to prove and very unlikely that all the good players would main MK. Your argument is also invalid because of the rise of counterpicking MK. If it truly was the player they wouldn't need to counterpick him to win. DUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRR

k

uh
So what if mk is better than other characters, try harder

DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

 

[Fatmanonice]

Fatmanonice, I know that you did not just say that olimar is easy to learn. GwaW and ROB defintely, but oli?

There really isn't all too much to Olimar. You can argue about the different Pikmin but, if we were to be completely honest with ourselves, it's not that hard to learn how to use each effectively. Olimar is pretty straight forward and if it wasn't for his laughably bad offstage game, he'd probably be a top tier character. He probably has the most user friendly grab in the game (both normal and reverse) plus it leads into a lot of great things, he's probably the easiest character to camp with aside from Snake, he has decent KO potential (not to mention he's one of the few character that can kill with his throws), his kill options are safer than most characters, proper spacing really isn't too much of an issue with him since most of his attacks (especially his grabs) are relatively quick and have decent range, and he only has one tech, whistle canceling, to learn. All in all, easy to learn with his only major weakness being his offstage game.

 

[The_Bear735]

k

uh
So what if mk is better than other characters, try harder

DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

obvious troll is obvious

 

[Jolteon]

the brawl community is a bunch of ******* that don't take the game seriously enough to learn how to play it

who cares if MK gets banned, this games going to die anyway because you guys never took it seriously to begin with.

lol @ this community. L M F A O @ us having four ****ing polls based on "OMG I DONT NO HOW 2 BEAT DIS CHARCTER PLZ BAN HIM"

seriously?

lmfao at this community.

also lol @ this being decided by a smashboards poll. swf is 90 percent scrubs lmfao

*shakes head*. I'm just going to take up chess.

RIP brawl
you had potential...too bad you were played by a bunch of planking *******

this so much

this is stupid, all the noobs who cant beat mk cuz their bad at this game are crying cuz their character has major disadvantages against mk so they will auto vote for pro ban

Ridiculous.
think about this,
MK has the most chance of beating ally, if u ban mk, ally is just gonna keep on winning and then everyone is gonna wanna ban snake. DURRRRR

Its the player not the character

I don't know, maybe his D3?...

 

[Fraser]

k

uh
So what if mk is better than other characters, try harder

DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

You just blatantly said he wasn't better than other characters by suggesting its the player not the character. I was countering that point I beleive the extent to which he is better than other characters was summed up nicely in the first Fing post. DUUUUUUURRRRRRRRHUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRR *droolz and forgets math*

 

[Ripple]

k

uh
So what if mk is better than other characters, try harder

DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

that's what people have been trying to do for the past year.