Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Deleted member]

Well, that's a selfish way of voting.

I would like MK to be banned. He's annoying to fight. With him gone, things will be slightly easier. Does that mean he should be banned? Absolutely not.
And many people need to understand that concept.

But, if that's the case, whose to judge if MK should be banned or not?

 

[Arty]

i like how pro ban ppl accusing anti ban ppl of ignoring the other sides argument when they are doing the same.

have you been to a fighting game tournament before?

here's how melee tournaments go

1. Marth (well i guess jiggs now lol)
2. Marth/Fox
3. Fox
4. Fox
5. Fox
6. Falco/Fox
7. Fox
8. Peach
9. Fox
10. Marth/Fox


Here's how sf3 tournament go
1. chun li
2. chun li
3. chun li
4. ken
5. chun li


here's how marvel tournaments go
1. storm sentinel captain
2.storm sentinel captain
3. magneto storm psylocke
4, storm sentinel captain
6. magneto storm psylocke

I have no position. As I stated, I'm just throwing random **** out there.

 

[Melomaniacal]

But, if that's the case, whose to judge if MK should be banned or not?

The intelligent half of your brain.

 

[DotHack]

God, if he could do it with someone like Mario or Ike, I'd simply send him a blank check in the mail.

I would laugh so hard if he took you up on that.

 

[Clouderz]

:flame:
Actually, I believe he said you were trolling because maybe you were trolling?

Ever think that there are other Metaknights that are working just to improve their game as hard as we are to beat them? It's not impossible for someone to outskill someone, but honestly, I want to see the public get good enough to outskill Metaknight, no matter how focused they are. And there are people who have characters that can go even with Metaknight who still notice that Metaknight is becoming so popular with people, the rest of the new players aren't willing to try, and even old players find it easier to simply convert to Metaknightism. It spreads like the Black Plague, and ends up over taking the entire community. That is one of several reasons that Metaknight has many people who want him banned. Few people really think that Metaknight is unbeatable. Most of them probably don't even play the game. Those that play compeditively can probably put up a fight against him, but still, Metaknight requires a heck of a lot of skill to defeat. And not everyone is capable of generating that much skill.

By the way, you should try to atleast spell check your typing. You lose 1/5th of your Troll Factor when you words atleast look like they have brain matter behind them.
:flame:

k

exacly why the brawl community is garbage, no one is willing to try, no one wants to really know how the game works, no one wants to think hard, so they all just go to mk

as u said, the people that play competitivley have the skill to compete with mk, you just need more sophisticated players that dont want to just convert to mk because he's eeasy

Hence again, no one wants to focus hard on this game, everyone is just ignorant and they blantly think mk is the best because hes good


btw im 13 and i really dont care about grammar AT ALL on the internet

 

[The_Game]

MK says he'll give you cookies and the souls of his fallen enemies if you vote no. =3

done and done

 

[Fraser]

Haha wow clouderz gets the moron award for the day.

If you troll like this you become as bad as him. At least provide a well reasoned, strucktured, and supported argument as to why he gets the moron of the day award. Such as: "Clouderz gets the moron of the day award because of his utter inability to see the reason in any of the counter arguments presented. He also refuses to admits when he is wrong such as when he said that its the player not the game and was disproved. He counter point consisted of name calling and telling us all we suck" Thats how you troll effectively

 

[Deleted member]

The intelligent half of your brain.

So, what I'm getting from this is that anyone who thinks MK deserves a ban is not intelligent?

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

But, if that's the case, whose to judge if MK should be banned or not?

:flame:
I thought that was the job of the SBR and the Tournament Hoster's job. They are the one's who actually consider what we think and decide if they care or not.
:flame:

 

[Melomaniacal]

So, what I'm getting from this is that anyone who thinks MK deserves a ban is not intelligent?

A lot of them, but I'm mostly saying the people who need to learn the difference between a want and a need are stupid.
Don't get me wrong, I think the pro-ban side has some legitimate arguments.

 

[Remzi]

I asked him before ~ 15 minutes.
M2K will quit brawl, if MK gets banned.

What, so are we making decisions based on one player now?

 

[Fraser]

What, so are we making decisions based on one player now?

Thank you so much for phrasing what i've been trying to get into Clouderz head for the past hour.. Thank you *tears of happyness*

 

[Weruop]

Haha wow clouderz gets the moron award for the day.

<3 Mike lol

 

[DotHack]

done and done

You're amazing. Kudos to you good sir. And enjoy those cookies.

 

[E_Ress]

I had no idea anyone actually recorded who CP'd Meta-Knight and announced it after the tourney. <3 Puerto Rico.

 

['V']

IIf anything, it's arguements like this that make me appreciate people like Ninjalink who use the whole cast and can back up the statement that they can kick the crap out of you with anyone. People say this all the time about M2K but can he really? To be completely honest, I would literally pay to see him win tournaments with someone other than Metaknight. God, if he could do it with someone like Mario or Ike, I'd simply send him a blank check in the mail.

Wrong.. People should be rewarded for their preference in their characters, not punished. Especially if they've put that amount of time and practice into that one character. I've heard this statement many a time: "this game was meant to be played how you want to." This also applies to people who pick their character. Sure this has nothing to do with competition whatsoever, but its definitely more than enough to justify a player's feelings on the subject. If M2K wants to quit because his character got banned, then obviously he feels that the game won't be as fun and feels justified in doing so. If he put that much time and effort into a different character, I'm sure he'd still do quite well, but he'd have to do that all over again if Meta Knight gets banned, which (in my humble opinion) is just not worth it for this game.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

k

exacly why the brawl community is garbage, no one is willing to try, no one wants to really know how the game works, no one wants to think hard, so they all just go to mk

as u said, the people that play competitivley have the skill to compete with mk, you just need more sophisticated players that dont want to just convert to mk because he's eeasy

Hence again, no one wants to focus hard on this game, everyone is just ignorant and they blantly think mk is the best because hes good


btw im 13 and i really dont care about grammar AT ALL on the internet

:flame:
Humanity in general is garbage because people don't want to try hard anymore. But what about those that DO try hard and still believe that they are better off Converting to Metaknightism?

And truth be told, they can't be blaimed. Meaknight is what Mario should be:A good, balanced character with no weaknesses to exploit that can be used in any situation. People that have been playing for Years throughout Smash History will be willing to try hard, but even many of them wonder why... I'm starting to feel more towards Proban now, although I'm still not voting yet.

And you're 13? That explains the ignorance and add, as well as the lack of trying to back up what you say with anything but teen angst. But it really does help you seem like you atleast have a brain if you try to type with some skil.
:flame:

 

[Clouderz]

Thank you so much for phrasing what i've been trying to get into Clouderz head for the past hour.. Thank you *tears of happyness*

what did i do?
i dont like this game
im just trying to prove a point that uh, no character should be banned in any game anywhere just because of its benefits towards other characters
i dont want my troll status to degrade thats why im an ignorant little guy

 

[CR4SH]

Haha wow clouderz gets the moron award for the day.

Clouderz v ripple. I wanna see that MM bad.

side bet?

 

[xDD-Master]

Something I'd like to add as sort of a testament to how MK is causing the metagame to stagnate:

In our region there are quite literally no noobs left. This seems trivial at face value, but noobs are very important to the community. When Brawl was young our tournaments averaged 60-80 players, giving us a healthy pot size, varied levels of competition, lots of people to meet and lots of opportunity to improve. Our tournaments now always consist of the same 20-30 people, all of whom are very skilled players. While this means that all the matches we get to enjoy will always be entertaining and close, it also means that we are always required to play at our very best and can never try to relax in a match and that we see the same players play the same players over and over again, for a very limited prize pot due to consistent lack of attendance.

In the past I loved watching finals matches for the hype and possible upsets (Ally vs KingAce matches were always so good), and yet in the past 3 or 4 tournaments I have decided to go do something else while finals is happening, and I'm certainly not the only one as I've actually been playing friendlies with some of the best friends of the people playing in finals while finals were happening - even their closest friends aren't interested in seeing the same matches over and over - hell, at the last tournament I skipped watching finals to play a rock paper scissors tournament and Brawl+ friendlies.

And now for the relevance: I blame our drastic decrease in attendance largely on the saturation of the metagame with MK and noobs getting frustrated with it. Noobs are important; the attendance numbers they bring helps to hype the tournament, they add money to the pot to make traveling to tournaments more worth the time/money, and perhaps most importantly they eventually improve to become great players. I often wonder how many potentially great players we prematurely lost due to them getting 2-3-stocked by MK's every game at their first tournaments.

This is so sad somehow. And the most sad thing about this is, that it's already to late :embarrass

Aww man, I rly wish MK would just have been out, and Waluigi or someone else would be in it


Btw. some people say: "Learn the Match-Up and get better" ... the MKs are doing the same <,<

Well just to repeat it, I dont think he is banworthy, I just dont like all that crying and johning about him, so I want him beeing banned (I play MK myself xD)

 

[Clouderz]

Clouderz v ripple. I wanna see that MM bad.

side bet?

i dont play this game LOL!

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

what did i do?
i dont like this game
im just trying to prove a point that uh, no character should be banned in any game anywhere just because of its benefits towards other characters
i dont want my troll status to degrade thats why im an ignorant little guy

:flame:
I have now seen the light.

At the point where you admited that you don't like this name, I now know to ignore everything you say and do, and hate that you get to vote. People like you need to go burn in hell.

IF YOU GUYS DON'T CARE ABOUT THIS GAME, THEN DON'T VOTE! WHY EFFECT SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T EFFECT YOU AT ALL! *******s. -.-

And I agree about being sympathetic to peoples needs. I understand that after putting so much work into one person, you'd be ****ing pissed that you can't use your skills anymore. But we need to help the biggest group we can. Who would be helped the most by banning or keeping Metaknight? Those that like using him or fighting him? Or those that want or need him gone? This is the last chance to decide....
:flame:

 

[Fraser]

Clouderz v ripple. I wanna see that MM bad.

side bet?

Ripple is the better player by far but Clouderz winz by spamming tornado then hiding for 7 minuts. I'm calling it right now. It goes to time up after Clouderz goes on an aireal adventure and leaves ripple on the ground just waiting for him to come down approximately 8 minuts later. If he does come does it will be for 1 of 2 reasons

1: To dish another tornado or 2

2. To taunt in the last second of the match when it is immposible for ripple to do enough damage to win anyways.

PS He may also fly under the stand repetedly like a douche but only if the stage has no bottom. So this one is not 100% yet. Who knows they may random Yoshi's island *rolls eyes*

 

[CR4SH]

For a best of three, I'll put the over/under at clouderz takes 2 stocks.

Oh, also ban mk (im super topical)

 

[Kokaloo]

Who cares.

 

[Clouderz]

:flame:
I have now seen the light.

At the point where you admited that you don't like this name, I now know to ignore everything you say and do, and hate that you get to vote. People like you need to go burn in hell.

IF YOU GUYS DON'T CARE ABOUT THIS GAME, THEN DON'T VOTE! WHY EFFECT SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T EFFECT YOU AT ALL! *******s. -.-

And I agree about being sympathetic to peoples needs. I understand that after putting so much work into one person, you'd be ****ing pissed that you can't use your skills anymore. But we need to help the biggest group we can. Who would be helped the most by banning or keeping Metaknight? Those that like using him or fighting him? Or those that want or need him gone? This is the last chance to decide....
:flame:

you sound like my mom
LOL
but in all honestly
i use to play this game
and uh i deserve to get a vote because i use to main mk
but then i quit after people like u started coming into the community

 

[Fatmanonice]

What, so are we making decisions based on one player now?

This. Who cares if he quits? Yes, let's bemourn a player that probably 95% of you have never met in real life and probably 90% who have never even talked to him here. Let's also ignore all the other great players that are out there and decide that the game is not worth playing anymore because one player quit. Yes, that kind of mentality certainly won't hurt the community AT ALL.

 

[Kinzer]

How the @#$% does Pro ban still have more votes than the anti-ban?

For goodness sake, keep him around, this game would actually be much worse for the entire community, not just a small margin of it who are QQing because they would benefit with him out of the metagame.

I don't even know how this is still going on.

 

[Deleted member]

Who cares.

Perhaps the 1400+ people that voted? Oh, and questions kinda end with question marks.

 

[Tekk]

but then i quit after people like u started coming into the community

 

[Melomaniacal]

How the @#$% does Pro ban still have more votes than the anti-ban?

For goodness sake, keep him around, this game would actually be much worse for the entire community, not just a small margin of it who are QQing because they would benefit with him out of the metagame.

I don't even know how this is still going on.

Here's what's going on:
A few good players came up with decent arguments as to why MK should be banned. Now, an entire fleet of scrubs thought to themselves, "you know, I've never liked fighting MK. He's hard! I'm gonna follow this guy!" So when a poll says "SHOULD MK be banned," most people read it as "do you WANT MK to be banned?"

 

[stingers]

i originally voted no ban because it'd be better for the community but i changed my mind because i realized i dont care

 

[Jolteon]

i originally voted no ban because it'd be better for the community but i changed my mind because i realized i dont care

i originally read this post with sympathy but i changed my mind because i realized i dont care

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

you sound like my mom
LOL
but in all honestly
i use to play this game
and uh i deserve to get a vote because i use to main mk
but then i quit after people like u started coming into the community

:flame:
You don't play, you don't like the game, you USED to play and USED to main Metaknight, and you quit because over 50% of the community declared having an issue with Maknight 3 time?

No, you don't deserve the right to vote. Many people like you stained the other votes on both sides, and I hope you and all of your kind desend into the seventh circle of hell to burn with Satan for all eternity.

Is their any way to stop people like this dude from voting? Seriously, this shouldn't be like the Presiential Election. People that really care and are effected by it should vote. No one else. I know that sounded stupid, but again, teenagers that live just with their parents and will continue to do so until they reach 40 years old aren't really effected by the presidency, but only voted on it because of stupid trivial details. And it's really annoying. God help the community if stuff like that happens here. There needs to be a compitency test to keep trash from voting.
:flame:

 

[Melomaniacal]

:flame:
There needs to be a compitency test to keep trash from voting.
:flame:

This, this, one thousand times this.

When I click 5 random names in the pro-ban box, and find 5 new tabs opened with "Smash n00b, June 2009" written on it, I get pissed. I don't want people who don't know jack **** about this game, it's community, or it's competitive play voting on something like this. It is beyond ********.

For the record: this also applies to the anti-ban.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

ESAM, the way you chose to format your post makes it obscenely difficult to respond to. In general, you just totally missed the point on almost everything I was saying and especially frequently ignored the fact that I was refuting the argument in the original post. Regardless, here I go...

Every single person won't have the same criteria for what is bannable. It is impossible, unless the SBR themselves had the same notion, which, in fact, they didn't. If the anti-ban side looked at with the definitions that the pro-ban side looked at it, and vice-versa, things would be different. However, you are two different bodies of intelligence, so you can't expect all opinions to be the same.

That's why you need a theory for banning criteria and then use your specific ban positions as an application of that theory. Your theory needs to be broad, and therefore it needs to be something that can be applied fairly universally. The issue is that, if you neglect theory, you end up with people deciding their position first and why they think what they do second. That's wrongheaded. You decide what sort of things should be banned first and then check which things meet those criteria second. The argument in the original post totally neglected a sound theoretical basis, instead opting to go straight for Meta Knight, and I'm calling it out on that.

He doesn't mean different as in falco is different from marth. He is saying that aspects of MK alienate the way that aspects of other characters work. Your reference to the weird-like characters make no sense, you obviously must have mis-interpereted what the pro-ban side said. He meant that MK alienates factors in the game which everybody in the game has, including MK. He isn't saying that he is so different from the cast therefore he should be banned. Read it over a few times and maybe you will get what he meant.

I don't think you really know what the word "alienates" means so this point doesn't make a lot of sense. If you mean that Meta Knight somehow shuts down various things that other characters can do, so what? Every character does that (except maybe the ones that suck like Ganondorf). Meta Knight doesn't do this to a particularly severe extent either; he is able to stuff turtle as an approach, but otherwise he doesn't stop any aspects of Mr. Game & Watch's game. I don't think Mr. Game & Watch has a notably good matchup against Meta Knight either (most people seem to think the opposite!).

Opinions have no matter in this subject, it is all based on factual evidence that people are debating. It doesn't matter if some people have fun as MK or abhor playing against them. All that matters is that MK solely reduces the appearance of other characters in high level play. That is not opinion, it is fact.

Maybe you should read what the [2] I was referring to was. [2] was opinion (saying Meta Knight makes the game worse). That's obviously absurd so I responded with a refutation, one person's opinion to the contrary.

The competitive brawl scene is different from the ISP scene, and different from the hacked scene. We are talking about the competitive brawl scene that the SBR has made a ruleset to. Bringing up the ISP scene is irrelevant. Sure, regional rules change, but the changes are very slight. 2-3 more stages are allowed/banned, and time may be reduced by 1 minute. It doens't really matter, it isn't like people are changing the overall way the game is played (like items or Brawl+/Balanced Brawl etc.)

I didn't reference ISP, Brawl+, or Balanced Brawl. Did you even read my post? It's not just 2-3 stages; compare the stage list from Joker's monthlies in Iowa to the stage list from Genesis. Let me do this for you:

Joker's:

Starter:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 1

Counterpick:

Delfino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion
Pirate Ship
Norfair
Frigate Orpheon
Pokemon Stadium 2
Port Town Aero Dive
Castle Siege
Distant Planet
PictoChat
Hanenbow (doubles only)
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Jungle Japes
Rainbow Cruise
Green Greens
Brinstar

Genesis:

Starters:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island (Brawl) [bracket only, CP in pools]
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 1 [bracket only, CP in pools]

Counterpicks:

Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar

That's more than a little different (and respect for the SBR stage list, which Joker has unlike Genesis, is the only reason Joker doesn't allow more stages like Corneria and Onett FYI)! We also have bans on King Dedede's infinite (common in some regions, never used in mine) and rules against ledgestalling (literally never used in my region). We even have asymmetry regarding suicide rules with moves such as Ganondorf's aerial Flame Choke. I wasn't even thinking of the 7 vs 8 minute timer rules (which DO matter; I live in an 8 minute region and have matches go to the last minute), but it supports what I'm saying even more. Regional differences are not minor, and that was my point.

I just plain don't think you understood what I was saying about items not being banned. Items are off. They are not banned. There is a difference, and Peach pulling Beam Swords, Mr. Saturns, and Bob-ombs and being allowed to use them is the biggest difference for practical reasons though theoretically they would be different even if the Peach case didn't exist.

As is obvious, people will not agree with 100% everything that the SBR says. If MK was banned, TONS of people would say it is stupid, and vice-versa. However, the rule is still intact and is still a basis off which you can put your own spin on it. THe SBR did NOT make that ruleset thinking that everybody would follow it, but used it only as a mere guide to help the TOs in their rulesets.

Some people don't even come close to following it. Genesis wasn't close at all to following the SBR rules. The fact that there's this "spin" in the first place indicates we fail at coming to a standard. Do you know how much spin there is in Street Fighter IV tournaments? Other than some having a scrub rule against PPP and KKK buttons, there's none at all.

I dont' get this part...

I was just saying I like the Brawl community, since the previous part could be misinterpreted to suggest otherwise.

This is true. Some regions don't implement stage striking (i know florida doesn't) but instead we cut down the amount of neutrals so that people will have an even chance regardless of which neutral is chosen.

That's impossible because the Ice Climbers are ridiculously overpowered on Final Destination, which is always included. No stage gives an "even chance" by itself; every single stage has non-minor character bias which means random can never be close to fair.

This was true in melee too, but people cared less (Jigglypuff vs Marth compare the stages Dreamland 64 to Yoshi's Story). Random stages are an archaic thing that needs to go, even if a few regions are behind the times.

I don't have the original post you are quoting so this right now doesn't make sense...so i'm going to rant about skill. Skilled players will do good. However, skilled players that play good characters will place even better. If a character is really over-powered, everybody will play him. As somebody else has said, 30% of what you will see at tournaments will be MKs. 30% of AN ENTIRE TOURNAMENT is made up of ONE CHARACTER. That % is ********, and warrants a ban itself.

That percentage doesn't seem big to me, though it's inaccurate anyway (MK is less common among people who don't do well, not more common [at least in my region], and the number is 22%, not 30%, which is significantly different). Even at 30%, that's not a big deal for a "best character". If it were 80%, maybe I'd be swayed. 30% is pathetic.

Character choice is a skill, just FYI. If you pick a character that sucks and do badly, that's a part of you sucking. Choosing to use someone who is too bad for you to win with it no more "skillful" than making bad choices in the middle of the game and losing because of it.

Yes, you can destroy the mansion, but you are missing the point. The skill of the players shouldn't be dominant to one thing, ie teching and grabbing items. It should be an overall performance of everything the gameplay has, with whatever rules are in effect. If you can't tech and you play in luigi's mansion and your opponent can, you are at a disadvanage. This isn't fair, but it also has merits of a counterpick, that is, to adhere to the player's/character's strength. However, compared to MK, your skill as a player shouldn't be shown as how good you are able to deal with metaknight. It should be how well you can deal with THE ENTIRE cast, not just one character of it.

What does grabbing items have to do with Luigi's Mansion? Regardless, your opponent can only use one character at a time. If they use Meta Knight, of course only your skill against Meta Knight will be tested. If they choose Donkey Kong, your skill against Meta Knight won't matter at all, except insofar as it overlaps with your skill against Donkey Kong. Across a tournament, your skill against the characters all of your opponents use will be tested, and odds are that's not just Meta Knight (assuming you actually stick around in the tournament; if you get eliminated really fast you could randomly get two MK mains that send you home I guess).

Your opponent can pick any character they want, yes, but nobody with half a brain is going to pick more than a handful of characters against metaknight and hope to win. If 1/3 of your opponents are MK, you need to learn MK more than you do any other character, BY FAR. Yeah, you don't ONLY need to know about metaknight, but you mostly do, which is still overcentralizing him. Yes, people without character experience will lose to players who main the characters which they lack experience against, but in this day of brawl it is the equivalent of death to not know how to fight against MK. You can be lucky at a touranment and not play against a character you don't know how to play, like marth, G&W, or Olimar, but you WILL NOT avoid Metaknight because too many people play him. That is the problem. Metaknight, as well as strategies against him, is most of the metagame. You can throw your money out the window rather than go to a brawl tournament without MK experience. It is basically the same thing. The fact of the matter remains that MK is too overcentralized and it is out of hand, and has been for a long time.

This isn't true. Only the characters who are terrible for far more reasons than Meta Knight really have an unwinnable matchup against him (like Ganondorf). All you're really saying is that it's the worst to not be good at fighting the most popular character which is just common sense. How well do you think you'll do at serious tournaments if you have no ability to fight Snake? Not well at all I'd suggest.

No, snake DOES NOT beat Metaknight 55:45. There is no way that Metaknight would be dominating as much as he is with a bad matchup. Sure, Ally has beaten M2K, but that doesn't mean that M2K hasn't beaten him back. I would be interested to see a match count of them. However, Metaknight is even or has the advantage in every matchup. Just playing Metaknight at an equal skill level as any other character already guarantees that, at worst, you will win an equal amount of times as your opponent. That is pretty absurd.

55-45 is a pretty small, and Snake is a lot harder to use than Meta Knight. I can easily believe the current statistics (Meta Knight's real dominance isn't even that big, honestly) with Snake having an advantage.

At their three most recent meetings, Ally beat Mew2King twice to my knowledge. The way Ally plays, it's just obvious that Mew2King is working harder even when he does win. It's not a lot, and their matches are frankly amazing to watch and it seems really fair. I just get a feeling the more I think about it that it leans just a bit in Snake's favor.

Equal skill is a phantom anyway. Skill isn't a linear quantity, and players often have different types of skills that may be more or less valuable when directly matched up. Do keep that in mind.

What does this have to do with anything? Citing other characters doesn't negate the fact that Metaknight outplays every other character in the game.

Is this a serious point? I'm saying that being good at making the game about one element naturally makes the others less important, and all characters do this. Meta Knight isn't an outlier, and your point that he "outplays" everyone else is completely unsupported at best.

Okay, you cannot state that Metaknight<Snake just because Ally beat M2K. One positive matchup doesn't make the other character better. Snake has SIGNIFICANTLY harder matchups than MK, and is a less complete character overall (with momentum cancels, killing potential, recovery, blah blah). Also, your analogy that G&W beats falcon and warlock punch doesn't make G&W broken. Sure, he can beat those things, but he doesn't beat 99% of everything in the game like MK does. Against MK you have to play perfect just to have a chance of beating him. His pressure/spacing/comboing game is too much for one package, and is CLEARLY imbalanced to a high degree.

The original post said it was unquestioned. I questioned it which alone proved them wrong. They defined the term broken in a shaky way. I used their definition to show Mr. Game & Watch as broken which is obviously not true. You just didn't understand what I was saying at all.

Have you ever heard of the shield? Realistically, people will not use attacks when they know they will fail, because there are plenty of other options in your example. MK can jump and airdodge, shield, or tornado.

What he won't do is defend himself with an aerial, an option many other characters have (especially characters with his amount of disjointedness). Lacking an option other characters have is a bad thing.

His glide attack may not have transcendent priority, but it will never lose to an attack. It may clink with some attacks, but it will never lose. Therefore, it is semi-transcendent.

You don't know what transcendent means. Clashing ever, whether it's a good or a bad thing for you, means you aren't. It will also never win against an attack; it always clashes. The point is that it is not transcendent.

MK's up air is the best momentum cancelling AERIAL. The faster the aerial ends, the better it is for momentum cancelling. Also, fastfalls are brought into the equation yeah. Snake doens't have fast attacks, but he has a good momentum cancel because his fastfall makes his momentum decrease significantly. However, the fact remains that uair is the best MOMENTUM CANCELLING AERIAL, regardless of the other mechanics of momentum cancelling

You don't understand game mechanics at all. Aerials don't cancel your momentum other than letting you fastall (which any aerial of any speed does equally well). Being fast only helps insofar as you can then immediately do something else so if you don't have a good "something else", having a fast aerial is useless.

But not a plethora of very useful moves like MK does. He has too many for one arsenal to possess.

His number of good moves really isn't staggering.

Almost every person will not be able to attack on reaction, considering their attacks take time to come out as well.

People will be looking for it and will punish it.

Ok, but does Snake have 3-4 other kill moves that also come out fast/have very little to no punishing opportunities?

Meta Knight doesn't either; Snake's overall killing ability is definitely better than him.

So it isn't a perfect attack, just a ridiculously good one. Good point for anti-ban.../sarcasm
Just because a move isn't 100% broken doesn't mean it isn't too good considering every other option MK has. What you are doing is breaking down every single move and saying that somebody has a move comparable to it. However, no character COMES CLOSE to having as many good moves that are comparable to Metaknights.

What I'm doing is responding to a document by Praxis, which you would understand if you bothered to look at the context of my comments.

Mr. Game & Watch comes pretty close; his moveset is incredible.

Both poke shields and are extremely hard to punish, therefore they are good moves. Added to the other phenominal moves that MK has makes them even more frightening. You seem to forget that the moves separately are very good, but together they are, in a sense, broken. The abundance of options/moves that MK can use with incredible success is incomparable to any other character in the game.

Both are good, but they are limited. Everything Meta Knight can do is limited just like everyone else. He's really not that special.

I agree with this. OH NO, ONE BAD MOVE? METAKNIGH MUST NOT BE BANNED THEN!!!

You didn't understand context at all. Having bad moves doesn't help anyone though, especially since everyone has about the same number of moves.

We are not adding his air-dodge with anything. When we analyse the air-dodge, we are analyzing ONLY the air-dodge. Sure, he doesn't have great aerial mobility, but that is the plus of characters like wario and jigglypuff. That doesn't make MK's airdodge, along with all of his other options, too good. If you are trying to single things out, single them out, but then don't, in another similar point, say "Hey it isn't as good as this person's because of his mobility." Keep it to one point or add them all together or you look like an imbecile

Nice ad hominem. Anyway, a move is significant based on what other factors a character has that make it useful. We can't analyze the whole of a character every time, but bringing in relevant other character attributes matters and is very reasonable.

It isn't the fact that Metaknight has good moves. It is the fact that Metaknight has so many GREAT moves incomparable to any other character in the game.

I've been over this. It's far from incomparable.

The Metaknight, then, didn't recover the correct way to avoid the fair. Yes, you can edgeguard him, but if the MK knows what he is doing, he shouldn't ever be edgeguarded. Yes you can still outsmart him, but you will have to guess perfectly, while the MK doesn't.

And if I never made any mistakes, I would never get hit. His mistake wasn't that big; my character has huge hitboxes and moves faster in the air than his does.

Many characters lose off the edge against Metaknight because of his amazing edgeguarding game and ability to return to the ledge to refresh his jumps. Just because you happened to edgeguard MK a few times doesn't mean that every character, including yours, can do it all the time. The fact of the matter remains that you have to get lucky in order to edgegurad Metaknight, because he can just mix it up either way.

There's no luck to it. Meta Knight can't teleport to the ledge. He's actually not that safe if you get out to him way out away from the ledge. What he can do once he actually reaches the ledge is completely different.

Playing against Metaknight, you cannot be right on top of the ledge when MK is ledge-camping, because he WILL hit you with an up air or 2, depending on if it is hitting shield or the actual character. NO character has an OOS option that both outranges Uair and is fast enough. I have tried as several characters to get passed ledge-camping, and it would work 1 out of 20 tries. Those 20 tries included me getting edgeguarded/receiving unnecessary damage as pikachu, samus, and diddy kong. Ledgecamping is too strong of an option, especially for this one character. Since his recovery is good, the times when he actually does get hit out of ledgecamping he can just get back to the ledge, or even glide around to the other one.

It sounds like you have personal problems. There are a lot of ways to attack the ledge. You can just jump out and take the ledge yourself. You can attack it from the back. You can actually space attacks to hit down there. It's not particularly easy, but in the end ledgestalling isn't good at all.

And if Plairnkk tried, he could've figured out a way around Azen's smarts since Lucario has no option that can be used above him that can effectively counter Metaknights Dair. Hell, Metaknight could jump and dair camp, and then be moving towards the ledge which would give no time to the chaser to actually attack the metaknight.

Plairnkk did try; overall the tactic is just not effective. Do you think he just didn't care and decided he wanted Azen to have his money? Honestly? Why do you assume things are broken when they've never worked at the highest levels and only sometimes work at low levels.

Yes, his DJ isn't simply amazing, and yes his aerial mobility is less than great. However, that combined with Metaknight's amazing aerials, overall the best in the game by far, it makes most of the cast unable to even touch metaknight when he is air-camping. G&W may be one of the characters that don't really lose to it, but that is a big reason for the matchup being near even IIRC.

This has not been established at all at high levels.

You cannot assume that every strategy will work against every character. However, in Metaknight's situation, there is ALWAYS a strategy that beats every single character, whether it is pressure, ledge camping, air camping, defensive (shielding attacks and up-b OOS when they whiff attacks on it) or spacing. At least one of all of these work against every character.

Meta Knight has no hopeless matchups. Of course that's true. He has tools that are effective in all matchups. His opponents also have things they can use against him. This is how a fair battle works.

THis point is irrelevant. Do any of the people you mentioned place high? Unless the only character you play is high tier, you will never place high in any tournament. YOu will just be thwarted with bad matchups and near unwinnable scenarios. The fact of the matter remains that people who main Metaknight DO NOT HAVE to pick up secondaries, ever. They do not have to deal with bad stages or bad matchups, because there simply aren't any. That is clearly unfair and very ban-worthy.

Look at the context of my post so you can respond to my actual point, though quite a few of those people do place high anyway.

This point is 100% irrelevant. People who don't have matchup experience will obviously not do good against people that do. That much is common ****ing sense. However, the matter remains that a Metaknight player, having equal knowledge and skill as a non-metaknight playerwill always have the advantage, or, at worst, be even with them (*gasp gasp shock shock*)

Did you bother to look at the context at all? This "point" is superfluous at best.

[quoteMetaknight is NOT poor on green greens, it is just not as good as most other stages. Same thing goes for yoshi's island. IT is still good for Metaknight, just not as good as a stage like smashville, frigate orpheon, or delfino plaza. Yes, some stages are more difficult to win on in certain matchups, but the Metaknight can ban a stage he is uncomfortable playing on.[/quote]

$100 money match your MK vs my G&W on Green Greens? Seriously though, the stage is bad for him; it really favors moving and killing vertically which Meta Knight is weak at. The bombs force Meta Knight to be way more careful with moves like his dsmash. You are treating a character with weaknesses like a god; it's silly.

Comparing brawl to the other smash games is stupid. THe games are different. I never compare brawl to any other game because they are differnet. In SSB64, pikachu is the best character, yes, but all the characters that have 0-deaths have 0-deaths on pikachu too. He isn't exclusive. Sheik in melee also has difficult matchups. She had AT LEAST 1 disadvantageous matchup, which makes her already worse than Metaknight, so stop comparing metaknight to top tier characters in other games. It is pointless.

The point is that a "best" character not having bad matchups is no big deal. So what about 0-deaths in smash 64? That's irrelevant to how effective Pikachu is. I don't recall Sheik having any clearly bad matchups; her "bad" matchups were no more obvious than Snake being a bad matchup for Meta Knight, and unlike Meta Knight, she actually totally destroyed the bottom half of the cast. It's not the same in the sense that the games are different, but how well Meta Knight does in Brawl is absolutely nothing special at all compared to how well characters do in other games so banning him would be bizarre. That's the point.

Just because you can't play Metaknight doesn't mean that he isn't good. I can't play Olimar, but he is still a good character. Also, matchup experience comes into play. You can't say "I beat somebody as my main because I have a lot of experience, let's try somebody I don't even play. Oh whoops, i lost, G&W is definitely a better character" which is basically what you are saying. It honestly sounds like you have no idea what you are talking about sometimes.

People said he was easy. He isn't to everyone. That's the point. Read context.

Metaknight not being "right" for everybody doens't mean he isn't the best character by a considerable margin. If you started with Metaknight and not G&W, you would be in a completely different position. If you had equal time in 2 characters, the better character would be the one you did better with OVERALL. That doesn't mean that in certain matchups you will do better as the worse character, but overall the better character will do better. If you put the same amount of time into Metaknight as you do any other character, your Metaknight will do better than the other character, no questions asked. Your points are scarily invalid.

That's not clear at all. Characters "click" based on more than time invested; people sometimes are just better at certain styles based on their inherent nature as people. That's why lots of characters are used in all fighting games, including Brawl. Yes, contrary to blustering, Meta Knight is extraordinarily far from being the only character used.

Again, Metaknight isn't BAD on any level. He may be worse on that level than another character, but this doesn't make the level bad. Pikachu is good on Frigate Orpheon. That doesn't mean that no character is as good as pikachu against pikachu on frigate orpheon. Also, stop mentioning the character preferences, for that has NOTHING to do with metaknight. If you like link the most out of any character, metaknight is still a better, even if you are partial toward link.

However, you may be better with Link. You don't play against "Meta Knight" in a tournament; you play against people. If people were perfect, the only character worth using would be either Zero Suit Samus or Squirtle since they have frame 1 jabs.

Also, Meta Knight is at a disadvantage against certain stage-character combos, like against Mr. Game & Watch + Green Greens. If that's not bad, I don't know what bad is.

EXACTLY!!!! Regions are dominated by Metaknight players. You wanna know why? The players are good, yes, but the fact that they play Metaknight helps them sooo much. If the players mentioned above played low tiers, i bet your *** that they wouldn't be the top player in that region. The character makes a huge difference, no matter how skilled you are. You can be a great player and play a sihtty character, and you become mediocre in the placings. You can be a great player and play a great character, and you will do amazing in placings, simply because of the character. Yes, your skill helps, but it is the character that makes you the dominater.

Low tier mains do really well around here. The best aren't low tier mains, but that's not important. The gap between the half of the cast that's actually good is ridiculously small anyway, and that includes Meta Knight.

They aren't always worse, but in the Matchups where Metaknight has an advantage (nearly all of them) the metaknight doesn't have to be better. As I said before, good players are still good, but their character is very important.

I've never seen two equal skill players, and I've never seen a worse MK beat a better "someone else".

Dude, being able to tech G&W's D-throws is completely irrelevant to MK. You can play any character and get ****ed up by those throws if you don't know how to tech. Also, Matchup experience peaks its head out of the corner again. YOu most likely had more G&W vs MK experience than he did, therefore you had the advantage. YOu also could be the better player, but the fact of the matter remains that MK is strong in basically every counterpick option. Sure, some characters might be better in specific circumstances, but overall MK is clearly the safest character to CP with by a large margin, if you have experience that is.

The point was about mid-level play, which you would know if you actually read my post in full and addressed the context. Also, a lot of characters avoid the dsmash even if they don't tech (like Snake). Meta Knight is one of a group that's in an especially bad situation if he doesn't tech, which was kinda the point (I assumed that was common knowledge).

You still are missing the point, and you contradict yourself a lot. Low level players will play characters they like more than characters who will allow them to win. Regardless of which character you use, if you are bad, you won't do good against the higher level players. HOWEVER, if you are bad and play other bad people with metaknight, the bad players who play metaknight will do better than the bead players who play pit or sonic. The hype metaknight has is not empty, you are just too ignorant to accept it.

Again, I love the ad hominem. Anyway, this isn't really true at all, and consider that bad players don't have to be bad forever, and they could probably improve better if they used a character that worked for then instead of Meta Knight (unless Meta Knight does work for them, in which case great!). I am pretty sure lower level Meta Knights are going to lose to lower level Ikes and Zeldas a lot because that's just how the low level works. The hype is empty because people whine and whine and whine and there are no legitimate results to prove anything. Twenty two pathetic percent. That is the most pathetic level of "dominance" for a broken character I have ever seen. Get me when he is at very least 70% and then I'll say the hype isn't empty.

This is irrelevant in basically every way possible. What does melee/brawl tournament attendance have to do with Metaknight being banned?

If you read the context, you'd understand.

You are missing the point. The fact that you can dimensional cape slightly longer and avoid punishment is still good. Yes, it is high-risk high-reward, but you could say the same for a lot of attacks in this game. Most people will not OFTEN do things that have bad risk-reward, but if it means life/death in a big match, in the dimensional cape instance, you will be more likely to slightly do it to live longer. It isn't often worth it, but it is sometimes, and that sometimes is enough for it to be mentioned.

I didn't miss the point; you did. If you use the technique in a blatant attempt to cheat, you will be disqualified from the tournament and possibly never be allowed to compete again, basically ostracized from the community. That's a bigger risk than picking Captain Falcon and spamming Falcon Punch. You're basically a fool to take the risk of using IDC just because the punishment is likely to be that severe.

Again, if the players who used those tactics were used to playing top-players and had more experience and a different mindset, those tactics would probably work a lot better. Skill is very important, so saying that mid-level players can't use cheap tactics on pros is obvious. If top players started to implement those tactics, i'm fairly certain they would have tremendous results, but people have too much respect for the game or simply get bored of doing the same tactics over and over again.

The top players don't use these tactics because they aren't that good; it's just obvious because even among mid level players they only sometimes work. Maybe, instead of assuming the "cheap" tactic that's brickwalling you at your skill level is broken, you should consider that the top players actually are playing the best way to win.

Seibrik picked up metaknight and immediately started ****** Florida. Yes, he was always a top player in the state, but not by such a considerable gap. For months after Seibrik picked up MK, Floridians had to come up with tactics in order to beat this new play-style of Metaknight (especially considering Florida's Metaknights were basically spammers for a very long while). He used all the gay tactics said above, and ***** Florida. Recently, he has stopped doing those tactics out of boredom/lack of care to do them anymore, and is now losing more matches. Yes, the players can be also getting better, but it is a strong possibility that it is a combination of Seibrik not using those tactics and the players getting better.

I don't know about Florida's scene, but I doubt Seibrik didn't practice up on MK a good deal before whipping him out in tournament. Maybe MK was just better for him all along? Who knows?

In the FOW example, who the **** has Ness experience? Honestly. FOW obviously has tons of MK experience, and most of the MKs don't have a lick of Ness experience. Matchup experience is still a very key part of brawl itself. THe point the pro banners are making, however, is that if the MK has equal skill and equal knowledge of any particular matchup, the MK will win more times than the other character will no matter what.

Ness winning doesn't count because no one likes Ness. That is your point, seriously. Your "point" isn't obviously true and is completely implausible regardless. Skill isn't a linear quantity anyway; you can't just say "equal" like it means anything.

For one character out of 37 to have 22% of ALL THE MONEY is staggering. 11/50ths of every top 3 placing shouldn't belong to one character. Hell, how do you even know that some of those didn't even have 3 good metaknight players. The best players of the region may play somebody that isn't metaknight. Yes, it is possible. However, if there is somebody tied in skill with the best player who plays metaknight, and has the same matchup experience in all the matchups that the best player in the state has, the metaknight will instantly do better due to his character.

You mean 36 and it's not staggering at all. Your claim isn't obvious or supported.

MLG tournaments doesn't mean every tournament. Yes, marth/fox/sheik/falco are clearly the best, but they all have bad matchups, at least 1. That already makes them worse than metaknight in that regard.

Not obviously true, no support, and feel free to provide better data on melee's tournament scene. Until you provide better data, let's go with the data that exists.

Metaknight basically does this. You will never succeed in a tournament if you don't play one of the characters that go near even with metaknight. It is an impossibility.

Explain how Thinkaman won a tournament with Jigglypuff.

I don't get this part...

It wasn't complicated. I don't know how to explain it any clearer than it already was.

The tournament counted could be metaknight banned or low tier only. How do you know that a good metaknight was even at that touranment. Every single tournament doesn't have a good metaknight because every single region has good players that don't play metaknight. However, you are still disregarding the fact that IF those top players DID play metaknight and DID put the same amount of effort into metaknight as they did into their respective mains that they would be doing better than they are doing now!

Those types of tournaments don't count in the statistics, and it's not obvious they would do better with Meta Knight. You're calling 78% of the people who succeed idiots basically, instead of considering the possibility that there may be validity to what they're doing.

His fast ground speed neutralizes this. Also, he doesn't need to move fast in the air.

I don't know what game you're playing, but everyone needs to move as fast in the air as they can. You can't just teleport to the ground whenever you want if you want to move fast suddenly, and you have to go into the air to do aerial moves which tend to be pretty good.

The characters who have better air games that Metaknight have VASTLY superior ground games. Metaknight doesn't always want the battle to be int he air versus every single character. As I said, every situation wont' work against every character, but there is always at least one situation that metaknight has that is clearly advantageous to metaknight.

Of course, in every matchup some good and some bad situations exist for both sides. The battle is to create your good situations while avoiding your bad ones. This isn't evidence he's broken so much as a functional character.

Again, his dash speed neutralizes this. He can approach and power shield very quickly, and his close-range attacks are PLENTY to make up for it.

Having to make up for anything is a weakness. Powershielding everything is an impossibility for real players anyway.

Metaknight never wants to fight long range. "every situation wont' work against every character, but there is always at least one situation that metaknight has that is clearly advantageous to metaknight." Quoting myself for obvious reasons. Metaknight can take the game to spacing in characters that have a projectile but short ranged attacks. He can bring it to close-range against characters that have inferior close range games. He can take the game to the air against characters who have inferior air games (which is most of them btw). The point is that metaknight ALWAYS has an advantageous situation against every charcter.

I've already addressed this.

SInce the attacks are short they can be used multiple times. Also, in the situation where an airdodge or spotdodge is coming, the metaknight will be good enough to punish with either a grab, a longer attack (nair, tornado, jab) or another short attack when they are vulnerable (like repetitive up airs)

No, you don't understand. The hitboxes don't linger is the point. That was not a statement about how fast the overall animation was (though they tend to be quick, they still are actively hitting for a very small percentage of their duration). You really just missed the point.

Not every character can capitalize. Also, the ones that can still have disadvantageous matchups so it doesn't really matter.

Snake can capitalize. You act like having a disadvantage is auto-loss anyway. If you lose 45-55, it doesn't matter at all, seriously. The skill difference required to overcome that is so petty that it doesn't matter at any level of play.

Metaknight is in no means bad at killing vertically. Maybe from the ground, but Metaknight is one of the best characters at getting his opponents in the air. Hell, he can probably kill earlier up than all of the cast! At low %s he can string u-airs to tornado. Yeah, tornado is escapable, but with short ceilings who knows whether or not popping out before the last hit of the tornado will still kill you. Also, Metaknight's U-tilt is really strong, and has a ton of range which makes it very useful for surprise vertical kills.

You have to really fail at SDI to die to a Mach Tornado no matter how low the ceiling is. Utilt is alright, but it's pretty easy to avoid. I definitely would take the vertical kill options of a plethora of other characters ahead of what Meta Knight has.

OH NO, ONE BAD ATTACK?!?!?!? HE IS CLEARLY NOT BANNABLE NOW!

It sure doesn't help him.

All in all, your post was just frustrating because you really didn't address what I was saying or look at context at all. Seriously, I don't mind long posts and responding to them, but please at least address what I'm actually saying.

 

['V']

People that really care and are effected by it should vote. No one else.

Actually anyone can start playing this game at any time between now and whatever and they might have been spectators before and could see that MK should be banned or not, so it really should be up for anyone to decide whether they should vote or not.

I used to play as well since the game first came out, but I always watched when I didn't play. And I don't see why Meta Knight should be banned still.

Just being honest and insightful here.

Edit: Don't let this account fool you, I've had an earlier account from way back in the Melee days.

 

[AvariceX]

There's so much arrogance on both sides of this debate that I can't stand reading it anymore so I will leave with this:

We won't be the first gaming community to ban a character and we won't be the last. Anyone who is actually good can easily learn another character if it bothers them that much (I'm not even that great and I have 14 characters I can play competently). The HD Remix guys got it right; life is short - pick the simple solution and move on.

 

[Vyse]

Don't respond to the trolls, just report them and carry on.
All the reports in this and any other General/Tactical discussion thread go to my Email.

And that doesn't make me very happy

EDIT:

Also, to the other mods who may catch this, feel free to infract users that break the rules in this thread on my behalf. That includes Trolls and Flamers.

 

[Thinkaman]

I just realized I've never once been to a tourney that a Meta Knight won, ever. (Except a mini-tourney in MO that Domo won, and Infinity being one of three people who split NO KOAST) All the big tourneys I go to are won by either Anther or Lain. (I missed the circuit event that Judge won.)

In over twenty Brawl tourneys I've attended or ran, I've never actually seen a Meta Knight win...