Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[DanGR]

yea and tell them u can't john about mk cause they picked anti ban.

Instead, when I gimp them with one of my guaranteed dair/shuttleloop setups I laugh and say "Well, there's another dollar I earned. I'm so good at this."

 

[MorphedChaos]

I will say this, MK has amazing frame potential, that if mastered could make him very much broken. Example is his Bair, if you do it right MK will have a 4 frame advantage that he can use if the opponent shields. Another one is if MK does his UpB, he can beat Marth's UpB

 

[ZiggyZiggs]

I, an Anit-Ban supporter, say : Skill > MK =D

 

[Alus]

I will say this, MK has amazing frame potential, that if mastered could make him very much broken. Example is his Bair, if you do it right MK will have a 4 frame advantage that he can use if the opponent shields. Another one is if MK does his UpB, he can beat Marth's UpB

Lets wait till it is obvious and the world knows before bringing this up again! [ I'm talking about the topic of banning MK.]

 

[Fatmanonice]

This was obvious from page one.

It was known that this wouldn't have much of an impact on the total vote unless one side held a large read. It was known that it wouldn't have a large lead because of the three other polls that didn't have a large lead. It could have been implied that anti-ban would have a lead in the S.B.R. because the last vote they did, they said there were 3/4ths anti-ban, and 1/4ths pro-ban.

You can't honestly have just now realized that this poll wouldn't have a large impact on the overall vote, and deny to target any arguments because of this.

Basically I was going with blind optimism in the hopes that this wasn't going to be the same thing all over again since it was the last time this matter was going to be brought up with the public and maybe the SBR would realise the severity of the situation. Hope is the opium of the people. People will go along with things because they want to believe that things will get better when they are pretty much fully aware that things won't change a bit or something along those lines.

By the way, I sent you a friend request because of your debating skills despite being on opposing sides. I might as well get something out of this thread even it's just a bi-product of forced networking. Who knows, maybe I'll be teaching you how to play Diddy online by the end of next year.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

You could, you know, use MK. If people won't ban him, just take their money. It's free money if you're any good at this game.

I'm not complaining. :D

i wish i could be in a field filled with daffodils, dandelions, daisy's, rainbows and meta knights irl

 

[MarKO X]

By getting hard evidence instead of spouting random theory that goes against the evidence we already have.

Dont ask questions to which you already know the answer.

You have to play MK and employ broken tactics in tourney.

I can't employ broken MK tactics in tourney because
1) the 50 ledge grab rule exists. This keeps me from planking with the MetaKnight.
2) the IDC is banned. This keeps me from using a move with start up and cooldown frames similar to the tornado to escape perilous situations. and remain invincible for an finite amount of time.
3) air planking is looked down upon in the community. If I air plank, I'm gay.

Interestingly enough, there is no hard evidence that shows that planking is broken and that no one can beat it. Surely the people that came up with that rule and agree with it are scrubs, right?
Interestingly enough, there is no hard evidence that shows that IDC, when used for gaining a positional advantage and not just for stalling is broken. Surely the people that came up with banning it and agree to it are scrubs, right?
Interestingly enough, there is no hard evidence that air planking in broken, but if you do it, you're gay. Surely, the people who say it is gay are scrubs... right?

 

[DarkPikmin]

3) air planking is looked down upon in the community. If I air plank, I'm gay.

Interestingly enough, there is no hard evidence that air planking in broken, but if you do it, you're gay. Surely, the people who say it is gay are scrubs... right?

Don't compare gays with metaknight. You make it sound like a bad thing

 

[MarKO X]

Don't compare gays with metaknight. You make it sound like a bad thing

lol
that's all you got out of that post? the word gay?
if i re-word it, would you make a better attempt to try and understand the point?

 

[DarkPikmin]

lol
that's all you got out of that post? the word gay?
if i re-word it, would you make a better attempt to try and understand the point?

Yep go right ahead. Its too clouded for me to understand

 

[MysticKenji]

Interestingly enough, there is no hard evidence that shows that IDC, when used for gaining a positional advantage and not just for stalling is broken. Surely the people that came up with banning it and agree to it are scrubs, right?

you'd have to get a bunch of judges to watch every match with an MK in it to make judgement calls on EDC usage

it's easier to ban it totally

 

[Sosuke]

Yes, because using gay in a negative connotation goes to show how immature you are.

 

[MarKO X]

you'd have to get a bunch of judges to watch every match with an MK in it to make judgement calls on EDC usage

it's easier to ban it totally

prove it.
oh, that's right, you can't. So thus, it was banned unjustly.

 

[PikaPika!]

Yes, because using gay in a negative connotation goes to show how immature you are.

You look like a gay

 

[Fatmanonice]

Yes, because using gay in a negative connotation goes to show how immature you are.

I guess it just depends on where you live. I have gay friends that call themselves and their friends gay, queer, and ******s all the time and it was the same way when I studied in England.

 

[MarKO X]

lol take 2

I can't employ broken MK tactics in tourney because
1) the 50 ledge grab rule exists. This keeps me from planking with the MetaKnight.
2) the IDC is banned. This keeps me from using a move with start up and cooldown frames similar to the tornado to escape perilous situations. and remain invincible for an finite amount of time.
3) air planking is looked down upon in the community. If I air plank, I'm not good enough to actually fight my opponent and beat him.

Interestingly enough, there is no hard evidence that shows that planking is broken and that no one can beat it. Surely the people that came up with that rule and agree with it are scrubs, right?
Interestingly enough, there is no hard evidence that shows that IDC, when used for gaining a positional advantage and not just for stalling is broken. Surely the people that came up with banning it and agree to it are scrubs, right?
Interestingly enough, there is no hard evidence that air planking in broken, but if you do it, you're gay. Surely, the people who say it is a ridiculous tactic that really doesn't require skill are scrubs... right?

Edit: but yeah, I would like a serious response to this (if one is not being conjured up already).

 

[Mardyke]

Well, firstly, the first ban side argument is a scrub argument. Neither are viable criteria for banning. ACTUAL criteria for banning are:

1) The game ceases to be competitive (basically, the game devolves down to one, possibly random, thing).
2) The game ceases to have variety (Akuma).
3) The game ceases to function (any glitch which makes the game not work at all).

Now, obviously 1 is false - the game is still competitive, and metaknight vs metaknight matches are still real matches, as are most matches with metaknight.

3 is also false - while the infinite dimensional cape glitch CAN render MK invulnerable forever, it is banned. It is arguable that certain things MK is capable of can cause similar issues (planking), MK is not the only character who can do it, just the best at it. Reality is that planking is broken because of the invisibility mechanics of the ledges, and its not a MK specific issue. We had to ban a number of stages due to circle camping, and indeed, if we were to go by the "makes stuff be banned" argument, the #1 offender would not be MK, but rather DeDeDe, who requires us to, by himself, ban every stage with walk-off edges. This is, incidentally, part of the reason that MK is so strong - we banned a lot of stages to deal with DeDeDe which are MK's worst. It doesn't help that the netural stagelist is a bad one - several stages which should be in the neutral stagelist aren't due to scrubby dislike of them.

2 is the real argument, then - overcentralization. And if we look at this argument, it is weak.

22% is a lot, but the idea that it is compared to "36 characters" is just plain wrong. Some characters are multi-characters (shiek/zelda and samus/zss) and some are borderline (Pokemon Trainer). However, the real issue is that all 36 characters will NEVER be viable. At least two of them - Ganondorf and Link - have such crippling weaknesses as to render them virtually unplayable. DK is not mainable because of King DeDeDe, and it is arguable that Bowser is not mainable as well for the same reason, but both are playable in tournaments under the right conditions. So really, you're looking at 32 characters who are really mainable. And it is arguable that the number of unplayable characters is more like 4 or 6.

Beyond that, however, there will always be a best character, and some characters will always be overrepresented relative to others. If you were to ban MK, Snake would make up at least 17% of the metagame, which is not all that much less than 22%. Obviously DeDeDe is far lower, but the same argument could be applied against snake as metaknight - so clearly, just making up 22% is not enough. Moreover, in other games (SSBM, for example), some characters have historically and do make up a huge percentage of the metagame, particularly Fox, Falco, Shiek, and Marth, and at various times have been quite dominant.

Is Metaknight the best character in the game by a significant margin? Sure. But that's not really important. There will ALWAYS be a best character, and oftentimes it will be by an appreciable margin. Ban MK, and Snake will be best. The difference between DeDeDe and the next character is much smaller than the difference between Snake and DeDeDe, and indeed the difference between MK and Snake is smaller than the difference between Snake and DeDeDe. MK is not unbeatably better.

Metaknight does not have perfect recovery. He has extremely good recovery, the best in the game, but there are ways of disrupting it. He can be edgeguarded, but not in the same way as everyone else. There are ways of hitting him out of every single move he has, including the tornado.

As for the argument that MK has no counterpicks, it is arguable that he does indeed have some, such as Diddy, and really, if MK really WAS so good, we'd expect a much higher level of dominance than we see. Not every top calibur player does play MK, which is precisely what they should be doing if he truly is the best. This means that, in some way, they don't think he's a better choice than whatever they are playing, for whatever reason. This does not necessarily mean that he is not the best character in the game, but rather that they feel that he is not the best choice for them to play.

The community favoring the ban is irrelevant, as much of the community is made up of scrubs. Tons of CounterStrike servers ban the AWP, but that doesn't mean it SHOULD be banned - it means a lot of people suck at counterstrike and/or blame their problems on something other than their own lack of skill. Scrubs are scrubs, and tournaments are for competitive play, not for scrubby play.

As for the MK specific rules, the ONLY MK specific rule is the IDC glitch. But it isn't the only character-specific rule. For example, stages with permanent walk-off edges are banned due to DeDeDe (which, incidentally, gives MK a further advantage, because the stages on which his recovery and edgegame are worse are mostly banned), the "kill at 300%" rule exists due to just a small number of things (DeDeDe, ICs), and stalling and planking are not unique to MK - a number of characters can stall or plank, and indeed, we had to ban all of the stages on which "circle camping" is possible for exactly this reason.

Ease of use is, obviously, a meaningless piece of data, and is scrub talk anyway - it doesn't matter how easy something is it use, what matters is how effectively you can use it. CGing with DeDeDe is incredibly easy; does that mean we should ban DeDeDe? No.

I'm not sure why this conversation is even being had. I know the community is incredibly scrubby; EVERYONE knows this except the scrubs in it.

Quoted so others can see.

 

[Sosuke]

There is NOTHING stopping you from air planking or regular planking.
The only think is that regular planking is limited, which is good.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

Yes, because using gay in a negative connotation goes to show how immature you are.

you use MK, therefore you are gay...

yep, thats how it works xD

 

[swordgard]

Document by praxis
Answers in yellow
I am going to be extremely condecending because im tired of bad arguments like these.

MK IS BROKEN

I will begin by defining the term “broken.” While it may be used differently by numerous forums and communities, I’m going to make up a special definition simply for this argument.



Broken: A word used to describe an element in a video game that does belong. It is above the level of the game and its mechanics and renders the game virtually uncompetitive without the use of said element.
Wow, your first actual definition proves hes not broken. The game is still competitive with MK, ally won genesis, even if he had been 2nd he would have competed with all the other MKs and non MKs

My argument is that the character Meta Knight (referred to from now on as “MK”) is broken and should not be allowed in tournaments or competitive Brawl.

Let’s start with his moveset. Most movesets, no matter how good they are, have downsides. Holes or weaknesses in a characters moveset lead to their downfall, as an enemy can exploit these weaknesses to their advantage. Certain characters can exploit the weaknesses in other characters movesets better than others, which is where bad matchups come along (which is why MK has no bad matchups). I’ll now go through the properties of MK’s moveset, and show why his moves were designed with no holes, no flaws, nothing to abuse.And il show you otherwise ^.^. I still wonder how only 3 MKs made top 8 at genesis with no flaws, no holes and nothing to abuse. With the show of this ample evidence, I think it is provable that MK’s moveset is not in line with the rest of the cast, and he does not belong as a character in competitive play.

1. His sword moves are made of transcendent priority
-Transcendent priority means that they will not clash with anything. They have the priority that the Star Fox characters’ lasers have. ****z, you got me there. Broken as hell, lets ban. OH WAIT!!! Lets say i use a character, jump, and attack. Guess what? Aerials were made to use transcendent priority. I dont remember marths fsmash ever clashing with other aerials.... Hmm, ban aerials? Seriously, this isnt broken, stop trying.
-The only moves that MK has that can clash are glide attack, dash attack, and his special moves.
So?
2. Aerials (Oh boy)
Up aerial
-It comes out in 2 frames
-Lasts only 13 frames
-Invincibility on airdodges lasts around 25 frames for most characters, and an entire airdodge lasts from 39 to 49 frames depending on the character. Thus it is impossible to get away from metaknight’s u-air by airdodging. He can do an up air and have at least 10-20 frames to do whatever he wants (if the opponent dodges frame-perfectly)
-Invincibility on spotdodges lasts around 18 frames for most characters, and the entire animation lasts from 22 to 32 frames depending on the character. Even with a frame perfect spotdodge MK has time to throw in another uair or an aerial of his choosing before you can move again.
Hmm, someone hasnt heard of b reversal to escape MKs range, he lacks drift speed so he cant follow chars with high drift speed, especially if you suddenly change momentum with that b reversal.
"S Class"
Yoshi - 4.04
Jigglypuff - 3.87
Wario - 3.71
Wolf - 3.63
Captain Falcon - 3.63

"A Class"
Sonic - 3.36
Donkey Kong - 3.36
Lucas - 3.30
Bowser - 3.30
Squirtle - 3.27
Mr. Game & Watch - 3.24
Marth - 3.24

"B Class"
Zero Suit Samus - 3.13
Charizard - 3.07
Zelda - 3.02
Samus - 2.97
Lucario - 2.95
Ness - 2.92
Mario - 2.92

"C Class"
Snake - 2.88
Toon Link - 2.83
Ike - 2.83
Pikachu - 2.74
Peach - 2.74
R.O.B. - 2.70
Pit - 2.70
Fox - 2.70
Falco - 2.70

"D Class"
Ganondorf - 2.62
Kirby - 2.59
Sheik - 2.57
Olimar - 2.55
Diddy Kong - 2.50
Link - 2.45

"F Class"
Meta Knight - 2.35
Ivysaur - 2.32
Ice Climbers - 2.32
Luigi - 2.29
King Dedede - 2.10
Drift speed list.

-Allows for ridiculous combinations of the aerial along with others within a short period of time (such as a short hop). Wait, so you can do many in 1 short hop? Ok, and thats bannable?
-At low percents it has ridiculous hitstun and can combo most characters to around 50 percent; and is virtually unDIable for some reason and the MK can chase DI quite easily from it.Er, someone hasnt heard of QCDI it seems, you can get out of his combos. He cant chase the DI very well, look at his drift speed.
-Has enough shieldstun that if MK is repeatedly u-airing someone who is on a platform, they cannot let their shield up. Their only options are to spotdodge or roll, which are both easily punishable by a good MK.Or jump? Or keep shielding till he falls? Dont be ridiculous
-Hits in nearly a full semi-circle above MK’s head, the far ends hitting out more horizontally. The edges have more horizontal range than the first two hits of MK’s bair.It lacks ranges upward though :S
Neutral Aerial
-Is a kill move, and it comes out in only 3 frames.Only first hit kills, must be in close range enough so that transcendant priority is virtually useless.
-Has multiple hitboxes, allowing it to combo with the weak hit, or hit both hitboxes for around 20 damage.18% to be exact, dont try to make this sound like snakes ftilts, it has no range. You can hit him before he hits you with this.
-Can do two in a single short hop.The second barely comes out, i can say the same about lucarios dair. Broken?
-Weak hit can combo into a grounded lock combo.Sometimes it trips, thats what your mostly talking about. Dtilt cannot lock a tripping attack. Either way, when it does send you in a low arc, you A) Can tech, B) Airdodge before hitting the ground most of the time C) Can QCDI the lock either way
Down Aerial
-Because of transcendent priority combined with MK’s 5 mid-air jumps makes this the best aircamping move in the game.OMG, transcendent. I thought we already went over this, its nothing better in this area than marths dair for example. So hes got the best aircamping move in the game.... Guess what, you can use projectiles on him by being at his level at mid range to shoot him stuff without him being able to adequately punish you.
-The edges on both the front and back of the hit have semi-spike properties.
-Can be used offstage with MK’s multiple jumps to perfectly edgeguard a large portion of the cast.
Back Aerial
-Multi-hit move that can be easily autocancelled out of a short hop.
-Because of hitstun added into the first and second hits so that the third and final hit will deal its knockback, this move can be landed into the ground and easily combed into an ftilt, dtilt, or grab.Because of hitlag, you could QCDI out of this and the following tilts. Not only this, but if it hits you with final move, it has very low hitstun on it, you can act before he attacks you. The mistake most people do is get hit by 2nd hit then press A, which does an aerial startup, which due to your closeness to the ground makes you land into lag. Human fault, not broken move.
-If autocancelled correctly (not that difficult), an opponent has a shield advantage of only 3 frames. MK’s spotdodge invincibility frames activate on frame 2, giving the opponent 5 frames to hit/grab before the invincibility starts.Or punishing after? If he always spotdodge, i wait after then hit. Grabs take 6 frames to activate, and because of bairs massive range not many up b out of shields can retaliate against it.Upsmashes? If you need to drop your shield before hitting MK (drop shield dash grab, etc.), he actually has a 4 frame ADVANTAGE. This means that he can roll away (his roll invincibility activates on frame 4) before you can even finish dropping your shield.
Forward Aerial
-Very fast if SH FF autocancelled.
-The tip of the third hit of the blade is a semi-spike, allowing for edgeguarding with a multi-hit move.For something to be called semi spike, it needs to send in at least a horizontal trajectory, this is slightly upwards. Stop bending the meaning of words.
-Transcendent priority combined with its fast multi-hit properties allow it to be used defensively to cut through most, if not all approaches.I wonder why nobody knows by now that fair is one of his worst attacks to use agaisnt run shield. Why do you think noone uses this vs ics? Same can be done with every char, leaves him very vulnerable
-If autocancelled correctly, the opponent has an 8 frame shield advantage, and a 1 frame shield drop advantage. Insert the numbers into the bair statistics above.So its even more punishable, wow.
3. Ground Game
Down Tilt
-Comes out in 3 frames (1/20th of a second)
-Can be quickly repeated for combos or extra damage (lasts only 15 frames)
-Has a high probability to trip an opponent, comboing in almost any other move.
-Transcendent priority, combined with its long range and the fact that it inches MK forward, makes this his longest ranged move (excluding the third hit of ftilt)Ok, how does transcendent priority makes this his longest ranged move. And excluding? Making comparisons betweens MKs move doesnt make him any better
-Can ground lockCan be EASILY QCDI-ed
Forward Tilt
-Great range, multi-hit, transcendent priority (the third hit has the same range as Marth’s tipper fsmash)Cannot be comboed from too.
-Not much to say about this move, but it’s a great ground move that can be used for spacing and building damage very well.
-Can ground lockQuarter, circle, Directionnal, influence. Seriously.
-from the MK boards: “What happens here is that the attack pops the character up a bit, and when they land they have 4 frames of landing lag. The advantage mk has here is dependent on how long they are in the air... which is determined by their current percent, weight, and fall speed. This is really a project in and of itself, but from what I looked at the first hit of his ftilt can actually yield a + advantage when your oppenent is in mid-high percent.I was under the impression that it was a set knockback.
/goes check.

Isnt, either way telegraphed comboes like these are subject to SDI. And thats IF it exists, dont bring out possibilities, bring out concrete.

Up Tilt
-Surprisingly strong kill move (Snake’s utilt kills MK on a battlefield platform at 98 with no DI, MK’s utilt kills MK on a battlefield platform at 107 with no DI)WOW, way to distort reality there. Way to distort it badly. You are assuming both characters are from under the platform, but everyone knows the tip of snakes uptilt is the weak part. It actually kills at 82. You wanted to give the impression it was close to the killing power of snakes uptilt on the ground, be specific. Stop twisting words to your ends. Strawmanning=bad.
-Has massive vertical range, covers direct aerial approaches well.Has a massive lack of horizontal range, learn to attock from diagonal?
Jab
-Can build up damage and combo well against a wall.Easiest to QCDI LOL
-Surprising range in front of and above MKLearn your hitboxes?
-Can combo into a dsmash depending on DI/percent fairly consistentlyOr by anyone who knows QCDI can be easily punished, especially with snakes ftilt.
-Can ground lock (switch up with dtilt and ftilt)Tons of multi-hit with no damage? Free QCDI out, learn that stuff and stop whining.
Forward Smash
-Some startup time, almost no ending lagStill very punishable.
-Has an unnaturally large hitbox above, in front of, and even behind MK.Learn your hitboxes, easy to counter with many moves once you know its range.
-Nearly unpunishable if used defensively, can be used to edgeguard well.weird, i was under the impression i could jump above or just stand up. Oh wait, you can.
Down Smash
-Notoriously fast and powerful move (5 frames, high knockback)Decently high knockback.
-Downside is that it is easily punishable out of shield by most high tiers.
-Hits on both sides, if opponent is DIing badly both hits can combo.Human mistake does not make stuff good.
Up Smash
-Definetely not the greatest move in the world.
-Medium knockback, can be used to pop the opponent up out of a run for combos.You cant combo after this, no hitstun.
Dash Attack
-One of MK’s few moves that actually clashes with other moves.
-MK speeds up on the ground while using it and it comes out in only 5 frames.Can be shieldgrabbed easily.
-Can literally combo into grabs and other moves at lower percents.Can literally be jumped out of?







4. Specials
Down Special
-Infinite Dimensional Cape: I think everyone knows what this one is. While you think you may have banned it, it is easy to perform without anyone noticing and make a huge difference on the game.Any abusive use of it is still banned, if your wanting to risk getting dqed, go ahead.
-A little known fact is that you can tilt the cstick VERY slightly during IDC and it will still affect MK as much as a tapped cstick.Point being?
-When MK touches the ground, he gains a small distance on his DC, so a single tap (giving him about a character and a half of extra distance) could easily get him out of a bad situation without anyone noticing.So its better than we expected.
-Can be used to escape off the ledge onto the stage. Using small amounts of IDC helps a lot here.
-Invincible and invisible while recovering
-Can be used to refresh ledge invincibility faster than his aerial jump.
Someone forgot to mention that being a move which has an indefinite duration(aka varying), if you get hit during anytime, including startup, you get more knockback. Risk/reward is preserved.
Side Special
-Incredibly high priority, eats up many moves.
-Has ridiculous vertical and horizontal range, better than most 3 jump character’s up b’s.
-Can edgecancel from its max length to any distance in between by tilting it up or down. This creates a quick, lagless recovery onto platforms.
-Can edgecancel backwards on ledges or platforms, giving more options for non-ledge-snap recoveries.
-If you hit someone halfway through the move you can carry them to the end of it to combo out of it.Or they can learn to DI, I know, its a new concept
-If MK times it right, it can outlast opponent’s invincibility frames on the ledge so that he will always recover.So can alot of actual recoveries >.>


Neutral Special (ah, the famous tornado)
-High priority, absorbs a high percentage of attacks and projectiles and even goes through some of the cast’s entire moveset.Hmm, you already stated that, and pivot grab from any char can beat it. And you also get more knockback if it gets hit during it.
-Does a lot of damage, and can rack it up quickly.Can be DI-ed and punish with down airs with some characters.
-Because of its high priority, and its ability to move quickly horizontally, it can be used on many characters more than once in a row to build extra damage.DI out of it, punish. Pivot grab it to stop it or punish the lag when hes aiming at you on the ground.
-You can pressure shields with it and move away safely.And you can safely spotdodge halfway through it to save some shield and end just in time to punish.
-Gains priority the more you press the b buttonHas a set maximum priority, and can only block a limited amount of hits ina small amount of time. Attacks with forced transcendant priority like ice climbers blizzard still go through.
-If you end it at the right time, it has 29 frames of lag regardless of height. If you stop the nado at the right height you can land with 0 to very few lag frames on the ground.Your forgetting the falling frames, which is in itself lag as you cant do anything during them.
-Goes through spotdodges, rolls, airdodges, because of its long lasting, giant hitbox and its ability to chase aerial movement.Er, shield followed by spotdodge, and many chars can back roll through it without getting hit. Back roll cannot be used out of shield though.
-Doubles as an incredible horizontal recovery (with a decent vertical one as well).And a great way of getting punished with attacks that goes through and get you more knockback.
Up Special
- Is a different move on the ground or in the airSo are some other moves, isnt broken. Still shares same stale list move.
-Comes out in 5 frames and is invincible frames 5-8, allowing it to avoid grabs if buffered at the same time as an opponent (say a ground release out of a grab)A) You should not get grab released to regrab, you got faster options. Dtilt, so does most other characters actually.
-If timed right can cut through any approach in the game.Wow, i dont remember any MK using up b over and over and winning non stop. Punish the glide's lack of options.
-Has almost no lag and is almost impossible to punish.Punish after the glide, perfect shield is grab attack or something.
-If you cancel it the right distance above the ground you can jump out of his failed cancel animation (no lag from jumping off the ground).He still has falling time you can punish FFS stop making it sound like he doesnt.
-Aerially comes out very fast (frame 8) and has a powerful hitbox. If you are below or in front of MK at startup you will be semispiked forward, and if you are behind or above him you will be semispiked backwards. A plus to the backwards semispike is that MK can then simply glide back to the stage.DI-ing up helps, its still a good move, just dont get near the death zones.
-Has numerous points to sweetspot the ledge making MK’s edgeguarding with this move ridiculous.And spiking him during it with falco a bit easy if predicted :D
-Has crazy knockback at low percents.It has more at highers >.>. Your basically saying it has a high base knockback, but fortunately the growth is low.
-Can still hit opponents for an entire semi circle in front of MK.MK can get hit during any of these moments too.
-Puts MK into a second glide, allowing him to use multiple glides. Also sets him up higher in the air so that he can gain more momentum.and reduces him to a low set of options
-You can land on the stage or a platform with the top of the shuttle loop to cancel it instantly. For some odd reason when you do this if you buffer another shuttle loop out of it, you get a another aerial shuttle loop, able to semispike nearby opponents.Your right, its weird.
6. Other Moves
Glide/Glide Attack
-MK has the second fastest glide in the game but the best control on where he goes.
-He can cancel the glide and fastfall it to have no lag from high glide points.He still has falling lag >.>
-He can gain massive positive height on his glide as long as he has space to glide a little lower.
-If he has no space to glide lower the glide adds to his airspeed and allows him to move quickly horizontally in the air.Thats the definition of a glide. Guess what, so does every char with a glide. Ban?
-His glide attack actually clashes with other moves.And can be nullified with moves that cannot clash or can be PS-ed to punish.
-Because of shuttle loop MK has two glides.
-His glide attack pops the opponent up with a lot of hitstun. It is very good for comboing at low percents and can lead into repeated uair combos on the entire cast.Learn, to, DI. Learn to punish glide attack with PS seriously. And the entire cast is a false statement too. Weight/falling speeds change the trajectory especially with DI.
-If he misses a cancel he has enough momentum that he will slide off platforms and ledges.
-If he doesn’t cancel and doesn’t ledge cancel, he lands in a self tech-chase position, like how Ness and Lucas can pk thunder themselves into the ground. This allows him for self created invincibility options not involving the ledge.Whut??? I didnt quite get that, anyone willing to explain?

 

[SnowballBob33]

Well, firstly, the first ban side argument is a scrub argument. Neither are viable criteria for banning. ACTUAL criteria for banning are:

1) The game ceases to be competitive (basically, the game devolves down to one, possibly random, thing).
2) The game ceases to have variety (Akuma).
3) The game ceases to function (any glitch which makes the game not work at all).

Now, obviously 1 is false - the game is still competitive, and metaknight vs metaknight matches are still real matches, as are most matches with metaknight.

3 is also false - while the infinite dimensional cape glitch CAN render MK invulnerable forever, it is banned. It is arguable that certain things MK is capable of can cause similar issues (planking), MK is not the only character who can do it, just the best at it. Reality is that planking is broken because of the invisibility mechanics of the ledges, and its not a MK specific issue. We had to ban a number of stages due to circle camping, and indeed, if we were to go by the "makes stuff be banned" argument, the #1 offender would not be MK, but rather DeDeDe, who requires us to, by himself, ban every stage with walk-off edges. This is, incidentally, part of the reason that MK is so strong - we banned a lot of stages to deal with DeDeDe which are MK's worst. It doesn't help that the netural stagelist is a bad one - several stages which should be in the neutral stagelist aren't due to scrubby dislike of them.

2 is the real argument, then - overcentralization. And if we look at this argument, it is weak.

22% is a lot, but the idea that it is compared to "36 characters" is just plain wrong. Some characters are multi-characters (shiek/zelda and samus/zss) and some are borderline (Pokemon Trainer). However, the real issue is that all 36 characters will NEVER be viable. At least two of them - Ganondorf and Link - have such crippling weaknesses as to render them virtually unplayable. DK is not mainable because of King DeDeDe, and it is arguable that Bowser is not mainable as well for the same reason, but both are playable in tournaments under the right conditions. So really, you're looking at 32 characters who are really mainable. And it is arguable that the number of unplayable characters is more like 4 or 6.

Beyond that, however, there will always be a best character, and some characters will always be overrepresented relative to others. If you were to ban MK, Snake would make up at least 17% of the metagame, which is not all that much less than 22%. Obviously DeDeDe is far lower, but the same argument could be applied against snake as metaknight - so clearly, just making up 22% is not enough. Moreover, in other games (SSBM, for example), some characters have historically and do make up a huge percentage of the metagame, particularly Fox, Falco, Shiek, and Marth, and at various times have been quite dominant. Various times. MK has been the best since Snake went down which its been over a year and still no changes.

Is Metaknight the best character in the game by a significant margin? Sure. But that's not really important. There will ALWAYS be a best character, and oftentimes it will be by an appreciable margin. Ban MK, and Snake will be best. The difference between DeDeDe and the next character is much smaller than the difference between Snake and DeDeDe, and indeed the difference between MK and Snake is smaller than the difference between Snake and DeDeDe. MK is not unbeatably better. Snake will be the best, but he wont be broken. Once snake is off the stage, he either gets spiked, grabbed out of his recovery, or must damage himself up to about 80% just so he can live. Also, when he is above you, he is dam near helpless. He either will bair, or airdodge, where you can either block it and grab, or grab him. He may have strengths, but he has exploitable weaknesses.

Metaknight does not have perfect recovery. He has extremely good recovery, the best in the game, but there are ways of disrupting it. He can be edgeguarded, but not in the same way as everyone else. There are ways of hitting him out of every single move he has, including the tornado. MK does have perfect recovery. 2 glides makes horizontal coverage no problem. tornado assists with quick priority. Even if u were to edge guard his Up B, he can glide under the stage to the other side. 5 jumps stalls out ledge invincibility frames. the risk in edge guarding him is nowhere near the reward

As for the argument that MK has no counterpicks, it is arguable that he does indeed have some, such as Diddy, and really, if MK really WAS so good, we'd expect a much higher level of dominance than we see. Not every top calibur player does play MK, which is precisely what they should be doing if he truly is the best. This means that, in some way, they don't think he's a better choice than whatever they are playing, for whatever reason. This does not necessarily mean that he is not the best character in the game, but rather that they feel that he is not the best choice for them to play.

The community favoring the ban is irrelevant, as much of the community is made up of scrubs. Tons of CounterStrike servers ban the AWP, but that doesn't mean it SHOULD be banned - it means a lot of people suck at counterstrike and/or blame their problems on something other than their own lack of skill. Scrubs are scrubs, and tournaments are for competitive play, not for scrubby play.

As for the MK specific rules, the ONLY MK specific rule is the IDC glitch. But it isn't the only character-specific rule. For example, stages with permanent walk-off edges are banned due to DeDeDe (which, incidentally, gives MK a further advantage, because the stages on which his recovery and edgegame are worse are mostly banned), the "kill at 300%" rule exists due to just a small number of things (DeDeDe, ICs), and stalling and planking are not unique to MK - a number of characters can stall or plank, and indeed, we had to ban all of the stages on which "circle camping" is possible for exactly this reason.

Ease of use is, obviously, a meaningless piece of data, and is scrub talk anyway - it doesn't matter how easy something is it use, what matters is how effectively you can use it. CGing with DeDeDe is incredibly easy; does that mean we should ban DeDeDe? No. What does chain grabbing with D3 have to do with anything? You can chaingrab with pikachu, falco, and there are plenty of locks in the game. The whole problem is that the character as a whole is broken. This is a videogame we are talking about. You can avoid just about anything thrown at you with either blocking, or dodging. It's up to the player to be able to avoid the moves. All MK's moves have god priority, ultimate range, and majority of them set up another move, or kill. Yes you can block them, like you can do any other thing, but the problem is how difficult it is to do. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it takes way more work trying to beat MK than it does to use him or beat any other character.

I'm not sure why this conversation is even being had. I know the community is incredibly scrubby; EVERYONE knows this except the scrubs in it.

Basically, not only is he the best, but he is broken in the sense that he is flawless. All characters have some balance to them. Fast characters are light and have low damage output. Good ground games means you lack an aerial game. Bad oos options mean you can be very offensive. You can mix any of these up, but in the end, you have some sort of balance to you. You call MK being light a weakness? He has the best momentum cancelling in the game, so basically he is a heavy now. And its not like his is big like bowser and gets hit with so many combos, hes small so there is another advantage. MK wouldn't be like this if he had no kill moves, or if he had a bad off stage game, or a stamina meter, or knocking one of his wings off would handicap him, or if he was absolutely destroyed by platforms, or something but thats not him. He has absolutely no flaws to him. The flaws come when the MK messes up. It would be one thing if it requires much practice to achieve his level of brokeness, because not many people would work that hard and even have the talent to do so, like ice climbers. But he is all of the above, which shows how he is broken. Taking him out would allow for so much change, for the better. More S+A+B tiers would be used because they are next in line. But then one of them has a weakness to a D tier so a few more people pick him up. With him in the game, its basically beat MK, learn MK, or you are garbage. Without him its beat a top tier or pick up a secondary to make it easier.

changes in blue

 

[DanGR]

Anti-Ban Side
He can be beaten in the realm of human ability. Every input in Metaknight's control is known to have a predictable outcome, and every attack is known to have a set of unchanging properties.

Someone explain this to me: If the IDC and planking weren't proven to be "unbeatable," why was it banned? By anti-ban logic, they shouldn't have been.

 

[Sosuke]

lol @ swordgards bad rebuttal
at least the parts i bothered to read

You people are so silly
when will you see the light

 

[Melomaniacal]

Someone explain this to me: If the IDC and planking weren't proven to be "unbeatable," why was it banned? By anti-ban logic, they shouldn't have been.

IDC isn't unbeatable?

 

[DanGR]

IDC isn't unbeatable?

No one has proven it to be unbeatable; therefore, it isn't.

See what I did there? That's anti-ban logic.

But seriously. No, it isn't unbeatable. And neither is stalling.

 

[DarkPikmin]

IDC isn't unbeatable?

With robots it may be unbeatable. Has limits for humans though

 

[Fatmanonice]

*looks as arguments pass by* I really wish I could respond to these...

 

[NinjaFoxX]

*looks as arguments pass by* I really wish I could respond to these...

i think youre doing enough just by posting here

 

[MarKO X]

No one has proven it to be unbeatable; therefore, it isn't.

See what I did there? That's anti-ban logic.

But seriously. No, it isn't unbeatable. And neither is stalling.

I'm still waiting for anti-ban's rebuttal to that.
What makes specific rules ok to use without evidence?

 

[fallenangemon0]

IDC isn't unbeatable?

Yeah I could have sworn that being both invincible and invisible MIGHT make you slightly undefeatable...

 

[Master Raven]

You cannot possibly be trying to justify unbanning the IDC.

It's pretty ****ing obvious it's unbeatable when used.

 

[Eddie G]

I'm still waiting for anti-ban's rebuttal to that.
What makes specific rules ok to use without evidence?

~KBizzle

Agreed. Well...let's hear what you have to say on this, anti-ban. You all seem to snap at every other argument with vigor and haste. Doesn't the quick banning of planking and IDC (I can understand the latter for obvious reasons) go against the same logic you all followed in the MK issue?

EDIT: People...forget about the ****ing IDC point. It's obvious why it is banned. Now please answer the question about planking.​

~The Gifted Unknown​

​

 

[swordgard]

~KBizzle

Agreed. Well...let's hear what you have to say on this, anti-ban. You all seem to snap at every other argument with vigor and haste. Doesn't the quick banning of planking and IDC (I can understand the latter for obvious reasons) go against the same logic you all followed in the MK issue?​

~The Gifted Unknown​

​

Its not because we agree to not ban MK that we agree to ban/not ban planking. These 2 issues are different, gaw can plank too >..>

 

[DarkPikmin]

You can possibly be trying to justify unbanning the IDC.

It's pretty ****ing obvious it's unbeatable when used.

No I'm just saying only robots may be able to do it indefinitely. If you're not a robot you can't do it forever? Is this anti ban logic?

 

[DanGR]

You can possibly be trying to justify unbanning the IDC.

It's pretty ****ing obvious it's unbeatable when used.

As far as I'm concerned, it is still "within the realm of human ability" to beat the IDC until you prove otherwise.

Looky there! More anti-ban logic. Isn't it great?

 

[DarkPikmin]

As far as I'm concerned, it is still "within the realm of human ability" to beat the IDC until you prove otherwise.

Looky there! More anti-ban logic. Isn't it great?

Exactly... "within the realm of human ability" means slap the ****ing controller out of the dude's hand.

 

[swordgard]

As far as I'm concerned, it is still "within the realm of human ability" to beat the IDC until you prove otherwise.

Looky there! More anti-ban logic. Isn't it great?

Actually it isnt, you need to never lose the % lose or you instantly lose, which cannot realistically happen at high level.


The logic is that pro ban has to show that he is broken , and not the other way around. Or else everyone could call a ban for anything.

 

[Eddie G]

Its not because we agree to not ban MK that we agree to ban/not ban planking. These 2 issues are different, gaw can plank too >..>

~KBizzle

Yes I know, but the question still has yet to be answered: Why has planking been banned? Is it because the tactic is believed to be "too good"? Is that a reason to ban something? Or am I totally wrong about why it is banned?

I just don't understand why it is banned. It may be a tactic, but wouldn't banning a tactic take away from the competition of the game? Isn't competition a heavy part of what anti-ban has been referring to in their arguments? Nothing against anti-ban of course, I'd just like to see an answer to the question.​

~The Gifted Unknown​

​

 

[Kinzer]

The logic is that pro ban has to show that he is broken , and not the other way around. Or else everyone could call a ban for anything.

Ban Gannon.

 

[MarKO X]

If you IDC for stalling, then yeah, it can't be beaten.
If you only EDC for getting away from people.... well, that hasn't proven to be impossible to beat, especially since it apparently has these slow startup and cooldown frames.
It's just like Sonic's Homing Attack. I can use it, no problem. It's only when I decide to go under the stage and stall infinitely when I can't use it. (interesting tidbit: MK can go down there and give Sonic the biznezz for trying that.)

The same goes for planking. It has not been proven to be unbeatable, and if other characters can do it, then what's the problem?