Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[fallenangemon0]

I love how the conversations in SWF drift from the original topic onto other topics loosely connected to the main topic xD

M2K plays MK > M2K says this > squirtle potiential > PT potiential.

Well it's not like anything any side has to say will ever be truly considered, regardless of the logic that supports it. We're not the SBR, and the Poll is a rather depressing way to make us feel as though we're making a difference, imho.

NEW TOPIC:

Is a temp Ban REALLLY that out of the question? Maybe Anti-ban people would like it. Maybe Pro-ban people would hate it. It might be good for the community. Discuss.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Well it's not like anything any side has to say will ever be truly considered, regardless of the logic that supports it. We're not the SBR, and the Poll is a rather depressing way to make us feel as though we're making a difference, imho.

NEW TOPIC:

Is a temp Ban REALLLY that out of the question? Maybe Anti-ban people would like it. Maybe Pro-ban people would hate it. It might be good for the community. Discuss.

We already know the results of a temp ban because we've seen it in Metaknight banned tournaments so there's really no point.

Also, in a similar fashion to what Karl Marx once said "Hope is the opiate of the people."

 

[Brinzy]

"Hey guys, let's do a temp ban."

"Ok! Sure! Great idea!"

*temp ban is put down*


(if MK is deemed to not need a ban):

"Wow, there was no point to banning him at all. Everyone who said to ban him is an idiot."

"No, you're an idiot!"

"**** this, I'm quitting, I don't want MK to come back."

<insert technicalities and -5000 life points for Brawl>

or

(if MK is deemed to need a ban)

"Wait, I thought this was a temporary ban!"

"Yeah well now it's permanent."

"This is bull****, I agreed to a temp ban, not a permanent one. You betrayed us, SBR."

"**** this, I'm qutting. I don't like to be fooled."

<insert technicalities and -5000 life points for Brawl>



My prediction anyway.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I love how the conversations in SWF drift from the original topic onto other topics loosely connected to the main topic xD

M2K plays MK > M2K says this > squirtle potiential > PT potiential > Brawl +

>caek. Please?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

cuz thats how we do it round hear at SWF, we troll, we flame, we have an intelligient conversation here and there and then we sip tea and talk about something else...

Well it's not like anything any side has to say will ever be truly considered, regardless of the logic that supports it. We're not the SBR, and the Poll is a rather depressing way to make us feel as though we're making a difference, imho.

I really love SWF community. We have so many entertaining people here at all times of the year

We already know the results of a temp ban because we've seen it in Metaknight banned tournaments so there's really no point.

Also, in a similar fashion to what Karl Marx once said "Hope is the opiate of the people."

Where are the results of said MK banned tourneys?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Where are they? I don't know where to specifically look for ones older than a month old as they are not recorded in the tournament rankings thread.

 

[Brinzy]

Well you don't have to look for them (for me, anyway), but were things really diverse and flavorful or were they pretty much the same/

 

[Red Arremer]

Give me a minute, I'll dig them up.

There you go:
HOBO17:
1: UltimateRazer (Snake)
2: Gnes (Diddy)
3: Dojo (Diddy/Kirby)
4: Fliphop (Diddy)
5: Lee Martin (Lucario)
5: mikeHaze GBD (Marth)
7: UTDZac (Mr. Game & Watch)
7: Bwett (Yoshi/Dedede/Diddy)

Sky's MK-banned event in NoCal:
1st: Erow (Snake/Zero Suit Samus)
2nd: Meep (Snake/Wario)
3rd: Warp Status (Zero Suit Samus)
4th: CBK (Donkey Kong)
5th: Nanerz (Diddy Kong)
5th: RedJ (Marth)
7th: Focus (Snake)
7th: Sky` (Peach/Diddy/Marth)

 

[Fatmanonice]

There's been more than that. You're not trying to withhold evidence, are you?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Give me a minute, I'll dig them up.

There you go:
HOBO17:
1: UltimateRazer (Snake)
2: Gnes (Diddy)
3: Dojo (Diddy/Kirby)
4: Fliphop (Diddy)
5: Lee Martin (Lucario)
5: mikeHaze GBD (Marth)
7: UTDZac (Mr. Game & Watch)
7: Bwett (Yoshi/Dedede/Diddy)

Sky's MK-banned event in NoCal:
1st: Erow (Snake/Zero Suit Samus)
2nd: Meep (Snake/Wario)
3rd: Warp Status (Zero Suit Samus)
4th: CBK (Donkey Kong)
5th: Nanerz (Diddy Kong)
5th: RedJ (Marth)
7th: Focus (Snake)
7th: Sky` (Peach/Diddy/Marth)

As expected. Snake still achieves good rep. But there is certainly a bit more variety compared to normal. ZSS, Donkey Kong, Marth, Diddy, G&W, Lucario. All achieved top 8.

 

[Red Arremer]

As expected. Snake still achieves good rep. But there is certainly a bit more variety compared to normal. ZSS, Donkey Kong, Marth, Diddy, G&W, Lucario. All achieved top 8.

Donkey Kong, Zero Suit Samus, Diddy, Game & Watch and Lucario don't do bad vs. Meta Knight, though.

@FMOI:
I just copied what I could find, I dunno if there were more MK-banned events lately, but those 2 happened just recently.

 

[fallenangemon0]

There's been more than that. You're not trying to withhold evidence, are you?

I think those are just recent ones.

Hahah after reading the above posts I can't see any real way the community can come out of this Ban issue without scars and a low HP XD

*seriously going to bed now X_X*

 

[Fatmanonice]

As expected. Snake still achieves good rep. But there is certainly a bit more variety compared to normal. ZSS, Donkey Kong, Marth, Diddy, G&W, Lucario. All achieved top 8.

Don't forget Peach is there too and she's considered by some to be a character kept unviable by Metaknight.

For the sake of comparision, here are the results of Genesis:

1. Ally - Snake - $2,336
2. M2K - Meta Knight - $1,460
3. Tyrant - Meta Knight - $876
4. Dojo - Meta Knight - $584
5. ADHD - Diddy Kong - $233
6. DEHF - Falco - $175
7. Fiction - Wario - $118
8. SK92 - Falco - $59

And Apex:

1: Ally(Snake)
2: Mew2King(MK)
3: Lain(Ics, DDD)
4: Anti(Snake, MK)
5: Atomsk(DDD)
5: Ksizzle(Lucario, MK)
7: ADHD(Diddy Kong)
7: Anther(Pikachu)

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Don't forget Peach is there too and she's considered by some to be a character kept unviable by Metaknight.

Donkey Kong, Zero Suit Samus, Diddy, Game & Watch and Lucario don't do bad vs. Meta Knight, though.

lol. I am seeing pro/anti type thoughts here.

But in regards to the temp ban, how long has it been popular? And has it been activated in a national tourney yet?

 

[KevinM]

Wow look at that the most MKs in a top 8 were Genesis for the two most recent tournaments.

And at hobo 17 there were 4 diddy's

ban diddy.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Wow look at that the most MKs in a top 8 were Genesis for the two most recent tournaments.

And at hobo 17 there were 4 diddy's

ban diddy.

When Meta Knight is away, Diddys will come out and play!

 

[etecoon]

Wow look at that the most MKs in a top 8 were Genesis for the two most recent tournaments.

And at hobo 17 there were 4 diddy's

ban diddy.

A) but snake won, clearly snake is better than diddy

B) snake was just a better player, there was only one snake, no other snake is doing what that snake is doing! diddy is too good!

A) snake won diddy isn't unbeatable, snake is the one that's really broken anywaydon't ban diddy I need him to win

B) 4 DIDDY'S THIS ISN'T A HEALTHY METAGAME

A) SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE

lolol

 

[Fatmanonice]

Wow look at that the most MKs in a top 8 were Genesis for the two most recent tournaments.

And at hobo 17 there were 4 diddy's

ban diddy.

Unlike Metaknight, Diddy actually has true stage and character counters. At the moment, his main counters appear to be Luigi, Marth, and Peach, both of which are heavily underplayed because, habba jeeba joe, Metaknight ***** all three. Initially, it will be expected that Diddy and the Ice Climbers will see a boost with Metaknight gone but are estimated to go down if their counters increase in popularity.

 

[:mad:]

I love how people (FMOI) take KevinM seriously.

Ban something next week. We'll have a weekly ban discussion, guys. I was thinking Bowser, he's too good.

 

[Red Arremer]

Luigi isn't a counter for Diddy.
Snake is harder for Diddy than Luigi is.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Luigi isn't a counter for Diddy.
Snake is harder for Diddy than Luigi is.

Not according to the Diddy boards.

@ Straked:

Do you know how many people have sarcastically said "ban Diddy" since yesterday? It hard to tell who's just poking fun and who's being fecicious/snarky anymore.

 

[Red Arremer]

Not according to the Diddy boards.

Yea, because character boards are such a scientific and correct source of matchup information, lol.

Seriously, character boards are good for certain informations - matchup ratios are not among them.

 

[Fatmanonice]

You know, I'm so tired of this arguement...
"This is what these two character boards say about this match up."

"Too bad the match ups are decided by scrubs."

... Okay then, I'll play your game. How did you come to the conclusion that certain matchups weren't that much in Metaknight's favor? I certainly hope you're not going off your personal experience and I know for a fact that you're not a high ranking player who has a lot of experience with other players that could be categorized as such. The match up threads are decided by a decent number of people and it is well noted that top players have their hands in deciding the match ups too so, no, they aren't just a bunch of people who came to certain conclusions by playing against their siblings on the weekends.

Add in: Also you can't have just the opinions of the high ranking players either because, like with Boss, things can become really skewed. For example, he mops the floor with Metaknights and Marths despite them being some of Mario/Luigi's worst match ups.

 

[iRJi]

Yea, because character boards are such a scientific and correct source of matchup information, lol.

Seriously, character boards are good for certain informations - matchup ratios are not among them.

Yes true, but he is still a counter lol.

 

[momochuu]

Pretty sure Diddys consider Luigi to be his hardest matchup, and I can see why.


If a board full of people that play a character AND people that play the other character being discussed aren't good for determining a matchup ratio, then what is? >_> Some boards do have really garbage or biased matchup threads though, I'll give you that.

 

[iRJi]

Pretty sure Diddys consider Luigi to be his hardest matchup, and I can see why.


If a board full of people that play a character AND people that play the other character being discussed aren't good for determining a matchup ratio, then what is? >_> Some boards do have really garbage or biased matchup threads though, I'll give you that.

Yepp, Very true. But as for the diddy and Luigi thing, people also have to remember that all of Diddy's gimmicks with Banana's goes out the window since they don't entirely work on Luigi. And as for the close range section of the fight, its also at a loss. Anyone who actually doesn't see the matchup being bad for diddy is not looking at things right lol

 

[Red Arremer]

@FMOI:
Don't blow this out of proportion. I'm not saying they're scrubs or that they only play their siblings at weekends - I didn't ever say that. I said that most character boards' matchup ratios are not correct.
Also, discrediting me as a person just because I don't fly over to America to play is the lowest you can get.

While some of the stuff is pretty sound (G&W boards are a rather good example here), a lot of things are simply wrong and/or heavily outdated.

People tend to overrate their character a lot. When I was taking part in character discussions, people would get into the thread and state in how many ways their character is so much better than the other one.
Furthermore, a lot of the things is theorycrafting. While it's true that X could do Y in order to defeat Z better than before, this is a situation that most likely won't happen in a tournament setting because it's not practical.
While theorycrafting does have its benefits, it isn't the only thing that should be looked at.
For instance, Sheik has an Infinite on Wario, so basically that matchup should be unwinnable for him. Does it matter? No, because it's situational for Sheik to get this infinite, and stage dependant too.
Other example: Zero Suit Samus has an Infinite with her footstool combo on R.O.B.. That one isn't even that hard to get and so situational like Sheik's Infinite on Wario. But I still have never seen this combo being used in a tournament set (and don't say "lolol thats cus Meta Knight pwns ROB you don't see him at tourneys", then I'd like you to know that a ROB placed 9th at EVO.).
Those are just 2 examples that - while on paper are very useful, in reality aren't helpful at all.

Furthermore, matchup discussions do rely heavily on personal experiences and subjectiveness. If you get heavily beaten with your main by Snake, you will think that your character's matchup with Snake is harder.

An example for this:
If Marth really would be crippled that bad by Meta Knight as the Marth boards claim, then we wouldn't see Marths placing soundly in tournaments on national and regional levels both.

If a board full of people that play a character AND people that play the other character being discussed aren't good for determining a matchup ratio, then what is? >_> Some boards do have really garbage or biased matchup threads though, I'll give you that.

And that's exactly the problem - not all of them are reliable. Some of them are outdated (Peach board matchups for instance), as well, so that's another point.

Yepp, Very true. But as for the diddy and Luigi thing, people also have to remember that all of Diddy's gimmicks with Banana's goes out the window since they don't entirely work on Luigi. And as for the close range section of the fight, its also at a loss. Anyone who actually doesn't see the matchup being bad for diddy is not looking at things right lol

It's no worse than 45:55 in Luigi's favour, imo.

 

[Sosuke]

I think character boards are good for match-up ratios only if they've RECENTLY BEEN DISCUSSED.

But 99.99999% of people here don't realize that.


Okay, that's kind of a ridiculous percentage.
~87.46% would be more accurate.

 

[superyoshi888]

You guys really think I want 64 Pika banned? No no no no no.....I was pointing out that he has the exact same properties MK does that the pro ban bring up....best recovery, fast and powerful, hard to counter-pick....plus he has a projectile and a thunder bolt that goes past the death line.

Simply put, I was making fun of the pro-bans rather poor arguement. If we ban MK here, we might as well ban 64 Pika and Melee Fox too.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Unlike Metaknight, Diddy actually has true stage and character counters. At the moment, his main counters appear to be Luigi, Marth, and Peach, both of which are heavily underplayed because, habba jeeba joe, Metaknight ***** all three. Initially, it will be expected that Diddy and the Ice Climbers will see a boost with Metaknight gone but are estimated to go down if their counters increase in popularity.

Only Peach is really a Diddy "counter".

Diddy vs. Marth is argued to be no worse than even for us now, and Diddy vs. Luigi, we all have varying opinions ranging from 65:35 Luigi to even. IMO, it's no worse than 60:40 Luigi if that, but other Diddys will beg to differ.

Also, what SpadeFox said. While a character board's match-up ratios can be correct, they can just as often be false or misleading because some character boards members tend to overrate their character a lot or be misinformed with certain things (this happens quite a bit with some other board's character ratios for Diddy, they say, "lols learn to catch bananas look at our DACIT or glide-toss to fsmash trixies we're better than diddy at controlling them lol our advantage.") It really depends. If you can find exactly where the character board most recently discussed a match-up and find pretty in-depth, convincing discussion, then the ratio is probably closer to "right" than wrong.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Only Peach is really a Diddy "counter".

Diddy vs. Marth is argued to be no worse than even for us now, and Diddy vs. Luigi, we all have varying opinions ranging from 65:35 Luigi to even. IMO, it's no worse than 60:40 Luigi if that, but other Diddys will beg to differ.

Also, what SpadeFox said. While a character board's match-up ratios can be correct, they can just as often be false or misleading because some character boards members tend to overrate their character a lot or be misinformed with certain things (this happens quite a bit with some other board's character ratios for Diddy, they say, "lols learn to catch bananas look at our DACIT or glide-toss to fsmash trixies we're better than diddy at controlling them lol our advantage.") It really depends. If you can find exactly where the character board most recently discussed a match-up and find pretty in-depth, convincing discussion, then the ratio is probably closer to "right" than wrong.

Which is why one should really only take the MUs to be general areas:

Your areas of neutral where it can be debated who has the slight advantage. (45,50,55 numbers)

Yes, this character as the edge over this one, but it's not impossible to win if one plays smart. (60,40,65,35) numbers

Very hard match-up. Near impossible to win.
(70,30,75,35,etc)

So if you keep it to simply those general areas, the rest of the MU number dont' really matter. So long as people can agree who has the advantage, or if it's even. There are certainly going to be many MUs that are argued both ways, such as many see snake vs Falco being even or slight advantage to one. But at least most agree it's an evenish fight.

 

[SuperStar21]

Simply put, I was making fun of the pro-bans rather poor arguement. If we ban MK here, we might as well ban 64 Pika and Melee Fox too.

Couldn't put it any better. I agree 100%

 

[Fatmanonice]

@FMOI:
Don't blow this out of proportion. I'm not saying they're scrubs or that they only play their siblings at weekends - I didn't ever say that. I said that most character boards' matchup ratios are not correct.
Also, discrediting me as a person just because I don't fly over to America to play is the lowest you can get.

While some of the stuff is pretty sound (G&W boards are a rather good example here), a lot of things are simply wrong and/or heavily outdated.

People tend to overrate their character a lot. When I was taking part in character discussions, people would get into the thread and state in how many ways their character is so much better than the other one.
Furthermore, a lot of the things is theorycrafting. While it's true that X could do Y in order to defeat Z better than before, this is a situation that most likely won't happen in a tournament setting because it's not practical.
While theorycrafting does have its benefits, it isn't the only thing that should be looked at.
For instance, Sheik has an Infinite on Wario, so basically that matchup should be unwinnable for him. Does it matter? No, because it's situational for Sheik to get this infinite, and stage dependant too.
Other example: Zero Suit Samus has an Infinite with her footstool combo on R.O.B.. That one isn't even that hard to get and so situational like Sheik's Infinite on Wario. But I still have never seen this combo being used in a tournament set (and don't say "lolol thats cus Meta Knight pwns ROB you don't see him at tourneys", then I'd like you to know that a ROB placed 9th at EVO.).
Those are just 2 examples that - while on paper are very useful, in reality aren't helpful at all.

Furthermore, matchup discussions do rely heavily on personal experiences and subjectiveness. If you get heavily beaten with your main by Snake, you will think that your character's matchup with Snake is harder.

An example for this:
If Marth really would be crippled that bad by Meta Knight as the Marth boards claim, then we wouldn't see Marths placing soundly in tournaments on national and regional levels both.

You don't have high ranking players in your country? That kind of adds fire to my arguement. In a sense, it does take away from your arguement because you are not in an area where competition is as fierce and you don't have very many oppurtunities to even go to tournaments. Granted, it's not your fault that you can't go to the big tournaments in the States but it does say "well, you're one to talk" when it comes to calling the character boards unreliable for character match ups. (Again, no offense because no single person is a reliable source for a single match up.)

Regarding "overrating characters", that's why you look at both boards (which is what I've been doing).

Regarding match ups being "out-dated," if the tier list can only be updated twice a year then the character boards are at no fault unless they do go more than a year without changing things.

How can it mostly be theory when it's a collection of many people's experiences with the character? Under the scientific definition, a theory is exactly that, a large amount of data collected by a large amount of people that points to a single conclusion (ex; the theory of evolution) and that's exactly what the match ups are because every match they fight with a certain character is a "test", not guess work. Now, you could create a hypothesis about a certain match up before a fight occurs but, under the method I mentioned before, it's either going to be proven right or wrong by the collection of the whole.

Actually, the Shiek boards say that the match up is in Wario's favor and the Wario boards say that it's about even as do the Zero Suit Samus boards despite the infinites...

A ROB got 9th at Evo, eh? *flicks a raisin at your forehead* You need to be at least 8th to rank and first to even begin the debate of whether or not you're even viable so that arguement's moot... Also, you conveiniently neglected to say that there was three Metaknights who ranked at Evo. *pulls up with a cement truck full of raisins and pulls the lever*

It's based on personal experiences but, as mentioned before, it's a collection of personal experiences, not just one guy, you're overlooking that.

Regarding Marth, he has 31 placings, Metaknight has 125. The point difference between the two is more than a thousand points too. This also points out that Marth has pretty much been getting most of his rankings in smaller tournaments which is why he's three behind Falco who only has two tournament wins compared to Marth's then.

I think that covers everything.

 

[Eddie G]

Donkey Kong, Zero Suit Samus, Diddy, Game & Watch and Lucario don't do bad vs. Meta Knight, though.

lol, false.

 

[Red Arremer]

You don't have high ranking players in your country? That kind of adds fire to my arguement.

Okay, you're now officially an *******.
I'm not even going to bother responding to you anymore.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

While some of the stuff is pretty sound (G&W boards are a rather good example here), a lot of things are simply wrong and/or heavily outdated.

People tend to overrate their character a lot. When I was taking part in character discussions, people would get into the thread and state in how many ways their character is so much better than the other one.
Furthermore, a lot of the things is theorycrafting. While it's true that X could do Y in order to defeat Z better than before, this is a situation that most likely won't happen in a tournament setting because it's not practical.
While theorycrafting does have its benefits, it isn't the only thing that should be looked at.
For instance, Sheik has an Infinite on Wario, so basically that matchup should be unwinnable for him. Does it matter? No, because it's situational for Sheik to get this infinite, and stage dependant too.
Other example: Zero Suit Samus has an Infinite with her footstool combo on R.O.B.. That one isn't even that hard to get and so situational like Sheik's Infinite on Wario. But I still have never seen this combo being used in a tournament set (and don't say "lolol thats cus Meta Knight pwns ROB you don't see him at tourneys", then I'd like you to know that a ROB placed 9th at EVO.).
Those are just 2 examples that - while on paper are very useful, in reality aren't helpful at all.

Furthermore, matchup discussions do rely heavily on personal experiences and subjectiveness. If you get heavily beaten with your main by Snake, you will think that your character's matchup with Snake is harder.

An example for this:
If Marth really would be crippled that bad by Meta Knight as the Marth boards claim, then we wouldn't see Marths placing soundly in tournaments on national and regional levels both.



And that's exactly the problem - not all of them are reliable. Some of them are outdated (Peach board matchups for instance), as well, so that's another point.



It's no worse than 45:55 in Luigi's favour, imo.

I believe alot of the character boards do a poor job of examining the match up, and they also do a poor job of organizing the data.

If i were the admin of these forums, i'd create a global rule that states that match up discussions should be flowed in xx format PERIOD else you get infracted/banned.

People also need to be told that, others clearly do no care whether or not their main is BETTER than who is being discussed. Do you think i'd give a **** if one thought his character was better than Dedede? No. Let matches determine that.

I hate theorycrafting so much. I may use it once or twice when i think about how a situation could of gotten worse, then i stay the hell away from it and pretend like it doesnt exist. Again, let matches do the talking.

Also, this word "subjectiveness" should never exist when discussing a match up. Facts[behavior patterns, situations you arrive to, etc.] are much more safe and sound when it comes to talking about the match up, but using ones owns feelings to address a match up really does not help other viewers that READ the material. Again, better off playing that match up for the experience.

 

[AvaricePanda]

1. Hold on a minute, boy-o. Did you just say "fun?" The irony is too wonderful. I just want to hug my moniter at the moment. What you don't get is that the number of players that play Metaknight dwarfs the number of characters played across all regions. He is the only character who's popular across the board. With this being said and added onto what I said earlier, the chance of you running into people who are going to pick Peach to counter your Olimar is miniscule in comparison to the people who will simply go with Metaknight. Also, you have to consider learning curves too. Peach has one of the higher ones while Metaknight has the lowest. Which would be more cost effective to pick up? Peach is a little about mid-mid tier at the moment while Metaknight is the top of top tier? Again, which is the obvious choice?

That wasn't your original point.

Your original post was that, "Why would you play these characters if MK ***** them?" This is why. You changed your point in this quote.

Also, the amount of people who don't have a match-up worse than 65:35 against Olimar who are going to CP him in the first place are really small. Again, in mid-high levels of play, the character counterpick system is hardly used unless absolutely necessary (like Wolf vs. D3), and even moreso in high levels of play. People stomach through 4:6 and even 35:65 match-ups all the time. You don't see people's names in a tournament results thread have 3 or 4 characters next to them. The majority of the time, you see them have one character they used through the tournament, maybe two, and hardly ever more than that. Go check a tournament results thread right now.

You keep saying that Meta Knight is the character with the lowest learning curve...how is he? When was there ever definitive proof of this? I'm not denying that he has a low learning curve at basic levels, but he's not unique in this aspect, as at low levels, Wario, Falco, and King D3 all have really low learning curves as well. If you actually want to do well at high or even mid levels of play with Meta Knight, you can't expect to toy with him for one day and place at a local 40-50 man tournament. Playing him does take good reading, predicting, and spacing skills, just like every other character, but a lot with him because he's a match-up that's been learned to death among about every character you meet in tournament. You have to actually invest time in learning quite a bit of match-ups and practicing reading humans in certain situations if you want to really place with MK.

2. Again, Metaknight's the best character by a large margin and Brawl doesn't have a true punishment system to capitalize on mistakes like you could in Smash Bros and Melee which makes him even better. The counterpick system is the only thing that Brawl depends on for some form of balance because of this and even then Metaknight side steps it.

On paper.

In reality, again, the character counterpick system is hardly used in mid to high levels of play. The stage counterpick system is used (you're forced to use it), but the character counterpick system is rarely used. How is Meta Knight the best character by a large margin? What evidence/facts/whatever have you used to support the claim that MK is the best by a large margin?

Also, just because you can punish mistakes well in Melee, doesn't mean that the best option is diminished. Fox still remains the best option even if you can punish mistakes; you can do that with every character in that game.

3. Uh... *points at huge gap in tournament rankings*

How many of these top placing MKs you see in tournament placings play MK just because he's the best option in the game? How many of these top placing MKs you see are people who didn't exist in the competitive scene until 2 or 3 weeks ago?

Again, there's a ton of people who play other characters. 22% of tournament goers playing MK=/=everyone is flocking to him.

4. See points 1, 2, and 3.

You didn't really target that. You said why MK was good and he was a better option than these characters and a lot of people play him. So? A lot of people play other characters too.

5. You know, the funny thing is that this arguement could just as easily be reversed in regards to finding counters for people. Not everyone wants to pick up Peach just to counter Olimar especially when they could just as easily pick up Metaknight. You say that not everyone would do that but, as the past year and two months has shown us, a decent number of people have. Also, as you said yourself, the goal of competitive gaming is to win so, using logic you decided to go against in this post for whatever reason, fun is not a factor, winning is and, as I pointed out, Metaknight is far away the most cost effective option with the lowest learning curve and best matchups overall.

When did I say that the goal of competitive gaming was to win, and fun wasn't a factor?

I want you to quote me where I said exactly that.

I probably said that the (or a, or the overall) goal was to win, and fun wasn't a factor in banning MK because it's subjective (as some people like playing against MK or some people like playing AS MK).

The actual goal differs from person to person. Some people's goal is to win. Some people's goal is just to place as high as possible while having fun. Some people's goal is to prove that their character is tournament viable, etc.

Again, that wasn't what I was targeting in your original post. You asked, "Why would you play these characters when they have bad match-ups against MK?" I was targeting exactly that; some people have fun with other characters, like playing different characters, or are just good with different characters. Counterpicking or whatnot had nothing to do with it.

But as I've said multiple times, unless you have a particularly bad match-up against Olimar, you probably aren't going to be counterpicking him in the first place. And if you are, your counterpick might not even end up being Peach or MK; it might be the secondary who compliments your bad match-ups the best out of the cast.

6. See points 1, 2, and 5.

I really don't see how those points targeted exactly what I said at all.

7. See points 1 and 2.

Again, didn't really address exactly what I said.

8. See point 1. As I explained in other posts, Metaknight is the only character who's popular across the board. In the case of Metaknight being banned, just about everyone would lose a crappy matchup. From there, the future of the characters would be decided by who became popular in particular regions after Metaknight was banned. For example, Lucario would benefit if Snake became more popular but would be hurt if King Dedede became more popular. All in all though, no characters would be hurt across the board except for Jigglypuff and Yoshi who truely do have it much worse against the other top/high tier characters but, all in all, Jigglypuff is the top of bottom tier and Yoshi the bottom of low tier so it's not like they really had a chance to become radically better anyways with Metaknight gone. There are characters though that WOULD become viable with Metaknight gone and it's even argued that some characters that could eventually become viable when their metagames develop thanks to Metaknight no longer sitting on their backs.

Again, not all characters even lose that bad of match-ups. Wario's only bad match-up would be Marth, no worse than 4:6. That doesn't mean the match-up is unwinnable and he auto-loses. To the best of my knowledge, Fiction has beaten mikeHAZE and Bardull, two top Marths, multiple times in tournament. Snake's bad match-up would be D3, no worse than 4:6, arguably only 45:55. He doesn't auto-lose. He's only in a disadvantage against a top D3, and even then the better player is probably going to win.

The metagame develop argument is really bad. Meta Knight's existence does not prevent Toon Link mains from getting better, or Peach mains from getting better, or any character or character board from getting better. All he does is prevent some characters from placing high in tournaments. He does absolutely nothing to other character's metagames. Nothing. The argument that, "Some character's metagames could increase if MK didn't exist" is absurd.

9, Man, how many times am I going to have to answer this question? This whole thing isn't about saving the low tiers or even the mid tiers. This whole thing isn't about Metaknight being the best. This is about a limited game like Brawl with a character that has made the metagame slow to a crawl except for a few characters. As said many times before, if this game were like Melee, this wouldn't even be an issue because,

Again, MK has done nothing to other character's metagames. Only their tournament placings.

You "fixed" a "Welcome to competitive gaming" post to "Welcome to Brawl", and the initial post was complaining of how his mid-low tiers weren't able to compete with MK, which is why I said those two things. By saying that it only exists in Brawl, you're denying the fact that there are top characters with at worst even match-ups in other games, and low-tiers struggle in other games.

despite Fox being the best, he didn't have the best tournament record and just about everyone had a reasonable chance of 0-death him (not to mention that edgeguarding was a lot more effective in Melee due to most characters having limited recoveries in comparision to Brawl).

So you admit that the best option in the game doesn't have to be the most used?

The key here is FORCED overcentralization. While MK is the best option, there is no forced overcentralization. He is not the only viable character in the game, and there are plenty of characters who are only slightly less viable than him. While Fox was the best option in Melee, there was no forced overcentralization. People chose other characters, because other characters were viable as well.

And again, in-game things in Melee shouldn't really take in account. Saying, "Well you could edgeguard Fox in Melee," is just a trait of the game, and doesn't change his match-ups any more or less in his favor.

10. So wait... you're trying to counter me by saying that theories are pointless in this debate and then using a theory to say that Diddy Kong will eventually eliminate his bad match ups? Anyways, it's kind of foolhardy to say "well maybe this character will rise up to counter Metaknight" because we already have with nearly 1/3 of the cast. Basically, we already have plenty of examples where, to our dismay, Metaknight quickly overcame strategies that were meant to knock him down a peg.

My fault, I badly worded that.

I meant that you were comparing the number of people back when Melee Sheik dominated to now, and how if there was something to be made against MK it would have been made already.

I'm saying that Diddy Kong has known room to improve quite a bit in this match-up, which you didn't really refute. I don't see how MK can overcome a lock that works on every character in the game except for Luigi, but okay.

11. This is what people said regarding the strategies I said earlier. I remember when the Bowser grab release chain grab was announced and I remember how people got on me because I said "don't fool yourselves. This isn't going to last." Because of how many people play as Metaknight compared to everyone else, whenever something comes up that threatens his huge lead even in the slightest, the Metaknight players have effectively found something in usually less than a month that made it less effective.

But it's more theory than anything by saying that MK could overcome it.

We KNOW that Diddy has room to grow in the Diddy vs. MK match-up to shift it more into his favor. We THEORIZE that MK can overcome these things quickly because of the amount of people that play him (albeit one of the things he has a lock that works on all of the cast except Luigi anyway).

 

[BBQTV]

why are you arguing its not like you'll change anyone i dont know why we cant get along

 

[Sosuke]

Over 450 pages later and people are still making stupid points in their own defense.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Over 450 pages later and people are still making stupid points in their own defense.

i love you too bb