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Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

Should Meta Knight be banned from competitive Brawl?


  • Total voters
    3,010
  • Poll closed .
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Da-D-Mon-109

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You realize your quote from Sirlin says nothing about what would happen to Akuma if his air fireball was banned. In fact, it specifically says the air fireball is what makes him so broken -- he might be tough but beatable without it, he might not, but your quote doesn't say either way.
:flame:
Thank you for atleast quoting my message.

Yes, my message doesn't give proof what would happen if (not just his air, but in general, let's not kid ourselves) fireball gets banned. However, don't you think they would have considered baning it and letting him still be playable if the rest of his attributes (such as his ability to warp out of any situation, his overpowered moves, his slow stun time, and his great combos) weren't bad enough already? The Fireball was the Icing on the cake, and easy to spam by little kids, but if it was JUST his fireball, the character himself wouldn't have been uncontitionally banned without argument for "How-Many-Years-Has-It-Been-Now?", now would he? Again, he's more than 10x better than the rest of the cast. 1 move doesn't make you 10x better than everyone else.

:flame:
 

salaboB

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:flame:
Thank you for atleast quoting my message.

Yes, my message doesn't give proof what would happen if (not just his air, but in general, let's not kid ourselves) fireball gets banned. However, don't you think they would have considered baning it and letting him still be playable if the rest of his attributes (such as his ability to warp out of any situation, his overpowered moves, his slow stun time, and his great combos) weren't bad enough already? The Fireball was the Icing on the cake, and easy to spam by little kids, but if it was JUST his fireball, the character himself wouldn't have been uncontitionally banned without argument for "How-Many-Years-Has-It-Been-Now?", now would he? Again, he's more than 10x better than the rest of the cast. 1 move doesn't make you 10x better than everyone else.

:flame:
I doubt it. Most game cultures don't deal with the idea of banning bits of a character -- the character is the sum of his moves, so they take it or leave it entirely on that.

1 move that "breaks the game because the engine wasn't made to handle it" certainly could make a character 10x better than everyone else. Does it? Not enough information to tell.
 

Overclassed

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You know, they could stop the poll now.

Statistically speaking, the numbers aren't going to change enough to where it would matter.
 

Fatmanonice

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They will disagree, but it is the truth. Don't believe me? Go online and show me all those overpowered Meta-Knights. You don't see them. You see Ike, Pikachu, Link and Kirby. Ike, Lucas and Pikachu are the ones winning. Meta-Knights never wins online. I have only seen Meta-Knight win twice. Once when I played with him, and another when someone camped Green Hill Zone with the down smash (it worked surprisingly :chuckle:).

Competitive Brawl and the game everyone else is playing is definitely different, and banning Meta-Knight will confuse everyone else but the people here (as they don't see Meta-Knight as overpowered. In fact, when I told a friend that MK was top tier, he said "What!? He sucks!").

Glad I'm respected though :laugh:
Just two things:

1. In online tournaments, Snake is the leading character with Olimar not too far behind. I should know, I'm a regular member of the OTL board and I have hosted 11 tournaments with all but two being at least 32 people and 6 being 64 people. The characters you mentioned are dominant in Anyone battles, not competitive online smash.

2. This decision doesn't concern other fighting communities, this is our decision and our decision alone. No matter what we do, Brawl will never be a respected fighting community. Heck, we still have a decent number of fighting communities who raise an eyebrow when you tell them that Melee and Smash Bros were competitive. Smash Bros will probably always be judged by its casual community rather than its competitive. Despite this, I still love this community because its the only community where the competitive and casual are side by side like how I interact with you, KumoOso, Flyinfillipino, and pieman on a regular basis despite the fact that I host tournaments and you guys are thrown in the box called "casual" and I'm thrown in the box called "competitive."

Basically, I'm concerned for you simply because you are "casual." This is a community that still blames the casual community for the faults that Brawl has and if you try to speak on behalf of the competitive community, people will try to rip you apart because of the enormous stigma that still exists. As I said, you are a respected member of the SSB4 discussion thread and one of the few people who I would call "leaders" of that community but people won't care about that here. You are casual and under those standards, most people will give you the label of being a "scrub." As I said before, you don't deserve that so I'm suggesting that you don't speak on behalf of the competitive community.
 

momochuu

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"Competitive Online Smash"? xD

That just makes me laugh for whatever reason. @.@
 

Da-D-Mon-109

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1) I doubt it. Most game cultures don't deal with the idea of banning bits of a character -- the character is the sum of his moves, so they take it or leave it entirely on that.

2) 1 move that "breaks the game because the engine wasn't made to handle it" certainly could make a character 10x better than everyone else. Does it? Not enough information to tell.
:flame:
1) Yeah, that's why games now a days are getting patched after enough people ban them from tournaments to get the attention of people who make it (**** Nintendo for not making Brawl patchable). Not to mention that we ourselves have banned the Infinite Dimensional Cape, the Super Yoyo, and the Freeze Grab, amoung many other glitches in Super Smash Bros history.

And 2) You honestly think that no one would have considered, from 1991 until now, that Akuma could be playable if he didn't have that aerial fireball (if you want to pretend the ground one isn't as bad)? 18 Years, and you really think that ,if he himself wasn't already atleast 5x better than everyone without it, people wouldn't have given him a chance? If you honestly think that he is playable without that fireball, with his "Instant Hell Murder" attack (amoung several other things) then... I actually have no idea what to say to that. That's just.... ****.....

Metaknight and Akuma are in no way the same level of character. Metaknight wishes he was that broken. Akuma, in general, is unquestionably banned. We are having our 4th talk on banning Metaknight, and the other 3 were close, both sides inflated by little kids who don't play tournaments at all, simply mad because Metaknight has the Mach Tornado. Metaknight and Akuma are not anywhere near alike. -.-

:flame:
 

salaboB

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Messages
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And 2) You honestly think that no one would have considered, from 1991 until now, that Akuma could be playable if he didn't have that aerial fireball (if you want to pretend the ground one isn't as bad)? 18 Years, and you really think that ,if he himself wasn't already atleast 5x better than everyone without it, people wouldn't have given him a chance? If you honestly think that he is playable without that fireball, with his "Instant Hell Murder" attack (amoung several other things) then... I actually have no idea what to say to that. That's just.... ****.....
I never said he was beatable without it, I said you haven't presented any proof of it either way. Fairly minor but very important distinction there.

I don't even see why this point is relevant to the discussion, anyway. Brawl is not SF, MK is not Akuma.
Metaknight and Akuma are in no way the same level of character. Metaknight wishes he was that broken. Akuma, in general, is unquestionably banned. We are having our 4th talk on banning Metaknight, and the other 3 were close, both sides inflated by little kids who don't play tournaments at all, simply mad because Metaknight has the Mach Tornado. Metaknight and Akuma are not anywhere near alike. -.-
You're right that they're not alike, but I think at this point most voters have gotten the idea that the Mach Tornado isn't unbeatable. The original post goes into great depth on both sides of it and I don't believe either deal heavily with it -- because it's not an issue at all except as a facet of MK, really.
 

Da-D-Mon-109

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I never said he was beatable without it, I said you haven't presented any proof of it either way. Fairly minor but very important distinction there.

I don't even see why this point is relevant to the discussion, anyway. Brawl is not SF, MK is not Akuma.

You're right that they're not alike, but I think at this point most voters have gotten the idea that the Mach Tornado isn't unbeatable. The original post goes into great depth on both sides of it and I don't believe either deal heavily with it -- because it's not an issue at all except as a facet of MK, really.
:flame:
I kinda bolded the sections and elaborated on the logic behind them being the proof that his fireball wasn't the only reason he was banned, a few messages ago.

And a dude semi-trolled that Brawl was made with Metaknight as Akuma, and that kinda pissed me off. Chuck Norris is not God. McDonald's Nuggets are not Real Chicken. And Metaknight is not Akuma. Not even frigging close. I don't like it when people even joke about those kind of things. It's just stupid to me. And I personally don't think other fighting games need to be dragged into this conversation either, despite me hypocritically doing it to talk about an earlier poster that did it.

And unfortunatelly, there are, and will continue to be people that tip the scales on both sides of this debate with incredibly non-sensical reasons for a vote that they don't even really need or that effects them. There needs to be a compitency test before people get to vote and possibly change the entire future of Compeditive Smashing forever, deciding whether a character gets to be banned or not.

And I still need to keep re-reading the Origonal Post. It still feels like I don't understand it completely, and part of my brain is still bloan from reading it. Until I absolutely know for sure both sides of this debate, I refuse to vote on something that I could be completely wrong in. I will indeed express my opinion, but in a vote as important as this, I will not be one of the people who could tip it the wrong way either way.

I'm sorry if I caused any rukus with you, Bobson. And I'm sorry if I was rude.

On an un-related note, HI KAWAII BUNNY! *waves*

:flame:
 

MarKO X

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:flame:
You know you'd also need to ban Akuma's fast as heck Dragon Punch Combos and Hurricane Kick Combos, hack the game to make it so he can't throw a single fireball period, since air or ground, he stops everything with them, and hack him so that he can be dizzied like the rest of the cast, right?

"as David Sirlin writes, "Most characters in that game cannot beat Akuma. I don’t mean it’s a tough match—I mean they cannot ever, ever, ever, ever win. Akuma is 'broken' in that his air fireball move is something the game simply wasn’t designed to handle. He is not merely the best character in the game, but is at least ten times better than other characters. This case is so extreme that all top players in America immediately realized that all tournaments would be Akuma vs. Akuma only, and so the character was banned with basically no debate and has been ever since."

If it was just his fireball, they would have simply banned that rule. If it was just his teleport, they'd have banned that. But it isn't just that. Akuma Transends the cast. It is impossible to beat Akuma unless you use Akuma. He is the Street Fighter God (during that game).

Once you've nerfed him so much that he's not even the same creature anymore, then you have a character about the strength of Metaknight. Nice try. And nice on not quoting anything, just horribly paraphrasing me.

:flame:
lol @ you getting mad at me putting your quote as yellow stuff.
lol @ you being this street fighter expert by reading one text of Sirlin.
lol @ this useless *** post.

if you take away the air fireball, you take away Akuma's ability to approach you 100% safely because you can't use any anti air attack. (some supers may work, but i dunno, and who cares, right?)
if you take away the red fireball lock, then Akuma doesn't lock you in infinitely till death with it. iirc, air fireball also helps to lock it in fyi. (but who cares, right?)
if you take away Akuma's teleport, you no longer have a 100% escape against everything.

What do you have left? A Ryu that can't be dizzied and doesn't have a Super.

Akuma's regular ground fireballs are nothing special, they both get stopped by projectiles and can be passed through via invincibility frames like everyone else's.
Akuma's Hurricane Kick and Dragon Punch juggles are nice, but if you know anything about Super Turbo, you know that Ryu and Bison also have juggles that are just as effective, if not more so, because they can lead into their supers as well as used after their supers if less than 5 hits connect.
Akuma not being able to be dizzied is practically MK not being able to get gimped.
Akuma's normals are nothing special, just a standard O.Ryu or O.Ken moveset with a bit more stun.

I mean, you can go ahead and try to play this nerfed Akuma (no air fireballs, no fireball locks, no teleport), and see how far you get with it. Then you can play the Akuma that uses everything. Then you can play the MK that nerfed under the rules no planking (aka < 50 grabs) and no IDC, then you can play the MK that can grab the ledge and IDC all he wants.

Because basically, a MetaKnight that can plank and use IDC is a "Super Smash Bros. Brawl God."
 

Da-D-Mon-109

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:flame:
Might I ask why we don't fight in Sudden Death whenever the time is up? Doing that would put an end to the "run away once you have a 1% stock advantage" tactic....

Aerial Camping is beaten by striking them as they hit the ground, and that, amoung the other things that aren't move specific, like running and planking, is something that all characters can do...

I had a ******** yet effective rule against my friends for planking. Although it would never be done compeditively, it certainly kept them from wanting to edge grab stall. "Anyone who grabs any ledge 3 times in a row without taking damage in some way, shape, or form, must either immediately sacrifice one stalk, or is guilty of stalling, and forfeits the match." Don't think it would get popular compeditively, but it worked for me in money matches.

:flame:
 

Melomaniacal

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:flame:
Might I ask why we don't fight in Sudden Death whenever the time is up? Doing that would put an end to the "run away once you have a 1% stock advantage" tactic....

Aerial Camping is beaten by striking them as they hit the ground, and that, amoung the other things that aren't move specific, like running and planking, is something that all characters can do...

I had a ******** yet effective rule against my friends for planking. Although it would never be done compeditively, it certainly kept them from wanting to edge grab stall. "Anyone who grabs any ledge 3 times in a row without taking damage in some way, shape, or form, must either immediately sacrifice one stalk, or is guilty of stalling, and forfeits the match." Don't think it would get popular compeditively, but it worked for me in money matches.

:flame:
Bob-ombs. That's why we don't play sudden death.

Not all characters can plank effectively.

A similar rule has been used in tournament. "You cannot grab the ledge X amount of times without touching the ground," etc.
 

Phyr

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its rare as hell, but it happens...


i <3 this thread, i hope MK stays in and everyone picks him so i can pwn them 1 by 1 xD
I hope not...

Well, even if it's banned in america i think it won't be banned in europe. T.T
 

Melomaniacal

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I'm not joking.

I literally fell asleep at my computer.

This could be because its really late but....
Are you serious?
I was on the edge of my seat, sweating bullets. My hear was pounding and my blood pumping.
I got an erection watching that match.

I ****ING LOVE BRAWL!
 

Inui

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Everyone is still arguing?

It's over. This poll will only net the pro-ban side two or three votes at most at this point, and anti-ban has a healthy lead in the SBR poll (that shouldn't be a serious leak). The 2/3 majority is now completely impossible. Even a small win is looking impossible.

Anti-ban has won. The truth has been revealed. Justice has prevailed.
 

Zankoku

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Everyone is still arguing?

It's over. This poll will only net the pro-ban side two or three votes at most at this point, and anti-ban has a healthy lead in the SBR poll (that shouldn't be a serious leak). The 2/3 majority is now completely impossible. Even a small win is looking impossible.

Anti-ban has won. The truth has been revealed. Justice has prevailed.
You're very bad at this game.
The one called "constraint."
 

1048576

Smash Master
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What Inui said is absolutely correct.

Oh well, enjoy your camping and planking fellas; Imma go play Melee/Brawl+/something fun where I can make more than one character selection and be competitive.
 

Da-D-Mon-109

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:flame:
To Melo, thank's for pointing out stuff that I miss. I forgot about the dang Bomb-ombs (most of my matches never end in Sudden Death). Stupid Sakurai, making this a party game. -.-

Metaknight is one of the best Plankers, but the little second section you quoted, Melo, was talkin' about how everyone is capable (to some degree) of aerial camping. This and Planking (although this is much less cheap in my opinion) are just things Metaknight is best at, is all.

And about the rule to try to stop Planking. Touching back on the ledge and then jumping right back down is one thing. Being ordered to take dirrect damage either by the stage or by the enemy some how, forfeit a stock, or forfeit the match.... now that's something completely different, wouldn't you agree?

Still, I do see what you mean.

And to Knuckles the Echinda, since I didn't feel like double posting just because of you, let me make a few things clear.

First of all, it is simply an annoyance of mine if people don't put atleast the message that they are talking about but still quote it. It just feels like a slap in the face.
Second, I never ONCE said that I was an expert of street fighter. If I felt like trying to put more skill into Ryu than Lucario, then I'd most likely be on Shoryuken rather than Smash World Forums, now wouldn't I?
And a Useless Post would be the earlier "I'M FIRIN MY LAZER" by another example of a voter that doesn't deserve the right to vote.

The fact that people have learned how to bait a Teleport and stop it, how to deal with and capitalize on his Air Fireballs, and to not get locked by Fireballs, and STILL have problems with him makes me think that "hm, maybe there's more to Akuma that you seem to believe. Maybe there was a reason he was unquestionably banned for all eternity for being the demon he is."
Only a ****** would ever make the claim that Akuma's Air Fireball and teleport aren't horribly unabalanced. If I personally ever did, I'll go back and fix the mistake. I'm saying that Akuma in General is horribly unbalanced, overpowered with more extra features than most of the cast, and that the 18+ Year ban that has never been questioned is well earned by more than just one move.

Metaknight might be the best at it, but he isn't the only person capable of Planking too (and they can be just as much of a problem with it). Sakurai would have named it and listed it as a Metaknight technique if Planking was to be just Metaknight's tactic.

And the IDC is a Glitch that was banned. Talking about it is sorta meaningless.

Did I say to allow Metaknight to glitch and continue to use a cheap strategy that all characters are capable of applying (admitedly a strategy he does better than most all others)? No. I'm saying that Akuma, even with the idea of his Air Fireball Banned and his Teleport Gone (which people have tried) is still capable of dominating the cast. Akuma =/= Metaknight.

Edit: To Inui, .....

AWWW! WHY'D YOU HAVE TO GO AND SAY THAT!?! Now the thread's going to die soon. I actually got to see some people put real thought into this thread (some... very few, but still some), and now they won't have any reason to show up, knowing that it is a futile effort.... now I'm sad..... IT'S LIKE YOU SPOILED CHRISTMAS! ;.; I'm going to bed.

:flame:
 

LucasGrey

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i think that if you are so concerned about losing to mk you can go back to melee where everyone used shiek ,marth, fox, and falco.
 

NinjaFoxX

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i think that if you are so concerned about losing to mk you can go back to melee where everyone used shiek ,marth, fox, and falco.
id rather the same 5(maybe6 or 7) characters than the same 1 characters, im sure every one else here agress.
and melee is STILL getting better and better while brawl is the same eww metaknight...
 
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