Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[AvaricePanda]

Melee had Fox, Falco, Marth, Shiek and the Ice Climbers as theoritically "perfect" characters too. Under "perfect" conditions, Fox and Falco could negate all damage in the game with the shine, Marth could never be touched with perfect spacing, Shiek could more easily than anyone in the cast 0-death everyone if they didn't make a mistake, and the Ice Climbers could infinite everyone. Again, the difference in the gaps between them and the gap between the characters in Brawl are more than obvious and, even then, weren't the Ice Climbers mid-tier in Melee?

Huh?

The point of my post was to show that there's no realistic way to cut off a character being perfect or not. You said MK was the only character in S-Tier to come close to the description of "perfect". By what standards? By what logic? You had no way of realistically being able to see or tell what character could be "perfect" or "near perfect" but just said MK was the closest.

Just because.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Are you joking?

No kidding. Samus was terrible with combos in both 64 and Melee and, yes, you could 0-death people with Link in Melee. Oh noes, 2 characters out of 12 in Smash Bros and 1 out of 26 in Melee! Yep, that definately kills my arguement...

 

['V']

1. Go to Youtube
2. Type in "Link combo isai"
3. ???
4. Profit

It's possible, but do you have any idea how hard it actually is to pull off? Theorycrafting is definitely different from what actually happens, which is the point I'm making.

 

[swordgard]

Why do I bother to get better with my mains Luigi, JIggs, and Olimar only to have them get destroyed by the likes of Metaknight. Yes I could try to get better, but as I get better so does Metaknight. Then I am left in the same situation. Now I have to learn how to use SNake and Diddy to the best of my abilitys in hopes of getting a 50-50 chance at best to beat a good Metaknight player.

You do realize it isnt MK which is making your characters unviable right? Jiggs>>LOL, marth and many other says hi.

Luigi> D3 anyone?
Olimar:> Ice climbers? Falco?

 

[AvaricePanda]

Why do I bother to get better with my mains Luigi, JIggs, and Olimar only to have them get destroyed by the likes of Metaknight. Yes I could try to get better, but as I get better so does Metaknight. Then I am left in the same situation. Now I have to learn how to use SNake and Diddy to the best of my abilitys in hopes of getting a 50-50 chance at best to beat a good Metaknight player.

Luigi gets destroyed by D3 more than MK..

Jiggs gets destroyed by Marth, Snake, and Game and Watch more than MK.

Olimar gets destroyed by Peach more than MK.

I don't understand your argument or logic.

 

[kirbywizard]

You do realize it isnt MK which is making your characters unviable right? Jiggs>>LOL, marth and many other says hi.

Luigi> D3 anyone?
Olimar:> Ice climbers? Falco?

Olimar does not have such a bad match up against Falco, I think really the only bad match up you put was Olimar.

Luigi and Jiggs were bad examples



D3 vs Luigi= why I hate infinite

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Those are two completely different types of games, with rulesets that are basically completely different, the rule set differences between most fighters is pretty consistent. It isn't some completely different beast, it's still a fighter.

I can not believe people are still asking that question, stop making my eyes bleed.

:flame:
Other boards disagree with that. For example, in the 8-Way-Run Forum (for SC4), I laughed when they warned some of the people to not get all obsessed over the Tierlist like Smash World Forums kids are. That made me laugh so hard. They certainly don't want the two of us to be compare to eachother...

and in reality, Smash Fighter's jobs aren't even to kill people, or Fox would probably be SSS for being able to Blaster People to death while running away. We try to get Ring Outs, which is much better than stabing people through the chest and dismembering them, so as to not turn away all the mothers and little children from the Wii (I'm thinking like Nintendo of Today already!). It actually is quite different....
:flame:

Why do I bother to get better with my mains Luigi, JIggs, and Olimar only to have them get destroyed by the likes of Metaknight. Yes I could try to get better, but as I get better so does Metaknight. Then I am left in the same situation. Now I have to learn how to use SNake and Diddy to the best of my abilitys in hopes of getting a 50-50 chance at best to beat a good Metaknight player.

:flame:
I may not know a lot about match ups. All I know is that you said you Main Jigglypuff (along with Luigi and Olimar) and are frustrated by being killed by Metknight. That gave my my laugh for the day.
:flame:

 

[Masmasher@]

Why do I bother to get better with my mains Luigi, JIggs, and Olimar only to have them get destroyed by the likes of Metaknight. Yes I could try to get better, but as I get better so does Metaknight. Then I am left in the same situation. Now I have to learn how to use SNake and Diddy to the best of my abilitys in hopes of getting a 50-50 chance at best to beat a good Metaknight player.

welcome to competitive fighting games?!?

 

[kirbywizard]

welcome to competitive fighting games?!?

Yep and I love this thread



edit: how many pages did the last one last for? I can not seem to find it.

 

[ShinoBee]

Silly people need to stop saying that as the universal anti-ban rebuttal.

That had NOTHING to do with his post.



Even I can 0-death with Link. And I suck at Smash.

I've been saying this, and it's true. Also loving that picture you got straight from my blog.

Why do I bother to get better with my mains Luigi, JIggs, and Olimar only to have them get destroyed by the likes of Metaknight. Yes I could try to get better, but as I get better so does Metaknight. Then I am left in the same situation. Now I have to learn how to use SNake and Diddy to the best of my abilitys in hopes of getting a 50-50 chance at best to beat a good Metaknight player.

Listen up, Brawl is only what? A year old?

Was Sheik banned after a year? No.

 

[Sosuke]

It's possible, but do you have any idea how hard it actually is to pull off? Theorycrafting is definitely different from what actually happens, which is the point I'm making.

Idk about other people, but it looks me like, an hour before I could get a couple of 0-deaths with Link against a pretty good player.

I haven't tried Samus, so idk.

But it defiantly isn't THAT hard to pull off with Link.

 

['V']

welcome to competitive fighting games?!?

What he said.. You're screwed regardless of whether Meta Knight gets banned or not.

 

[MarKO X]

Link can definitely give people the 0-death **** in S64.

Samus cannot. Unless the opponent makes a mistake. She's AWESOME at busting shields wide open, so like, don't shield against her.

And lol @ Smash not about killing people. If you knock someone off a cliff, that's not death?

 

[Hobobloke]

No they spontaneously combust in to stars only to be reformed and fall from the sky on a magical platform.

 

[da K.I.D.]

that sounds like death and rebirth to me...

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

And lol @ Smash not about killing people. If you knock someone off a cliff, that's not death?

:flame:
Dude, now a days, even being shot with twin Rocket Launchers inside of a Volcano while being Poisoned and with a horrible Virus doesn't mean certain death. And most of the children that join this community watch those cartoons where the corny villain monologe for 5 days, gets cheapshoted, falls of a cliff, and then returns to save the Hero in about a week. You tell me if falling off of a cliff means death.

But maybe I should have phrased that better. Your goal isn't to slaughter the person with your bare hands, strangling them in your palms while their blood falls to the ground. You simply need to move them off screen. Out of sight, out of mind. Peekaboo! Children's game. -.-

By the way, Da Kid? How did you give Sora a Hat and Monacle like that? I want one. That's cool.
:flame:

 

[Hobobloke]

Shhhh don't say death, this is a family-friendly game. Like pokemon, they don't die they "faint".

 

['V']

Shhhh don't say death, this is a family-friendly game. Like pokemon, they don't die they "faint".

They have Pokemon cemeteries...

 

[kirbywizard]

Well I guess this will some how go into a pokemon competitiveness being compared to brawl thread

 

[Hobobloke]

That's actually an interesting topic we've dicussed before in the PC also Cubone wears his mothers skull.

Try this one on for size, what do they eat for meat in the pokeworld?

 

[Newbreeze]

well i like both arguments to a point, but i'm still for his bann considering nobdy uses specific characters due to his existence in competitive brawl, and more notably the fact that he has no counter-picks.

Its an easy decision to bann a character whom give anyone, aside from their skill level, a unfair and unmatchable addition towards their own victory.

Just remember the point here is that he is unfair to the rest of the brawl cast and this community, absolutely NONE of the comments stating that he cannot be banned because he can be beaten should be considered remotely valid considering its a players choice who to use, just this fact and that the boards themselves point out that he has no counter makes him not valid for strategical counter-picking and professional gameplay.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

They have Pokemon cemeteries...

:flame:
And yet when Pokemon are hit with a Guillotine, they still survive, only to Faint. BEING BEHEADED ONLY MAKES YOU FAINT! WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO KILL A POKEMON!?! WHAT THE HECK MADE THOSE CEMETARIES THEN!?!

But yes, Brawl is too much of a family game. Family game means children. Children means this generation. And this Generation is too lazy to put work into anything. They are all about the easy way out. And until they get good and branch out to find the peson they like the best and are good with, they will think that easy-way-out can only be Metaknight, which is why he has become a problem.
:flame:

 

[MarKO X]

there is definitely a pokemon tower that honors dead pokemon.
go rby

 

[Phyr]

What's the time limit?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Luigi gets destroyed by D3 more than MK..

Jiggs gets destroyed by Marth, Snake, and Game and Watch more than MK.

Olimar gets destroyed by Peach more than MK.

I don't understand your argument or logic.

Because Metaknight's presence obviously overshadows those characters. Why play Peach when Metaknight ***** her? Why play Marth and Game and Watch when they have bad match ups against Metaknight? Why play King Dedede when again, it's a particularly hard match up for him? I understand his logic perfectly.

I may not know a lot about match ups. All I know is that you said you Main Jigglypuff (along with Luigi and Olimar) and are frustrated by being killed by Metknight. That gave my my laugh for the day.

Explained in the first response.

welcome to Brawl?!?

Fixed for clarity.

Listen up, Brawl is only what? A year old?

Was Sheik banned after a year? No.

The community was maybe 1/5 the size it is now and even back then it only took them about 10 months to find a way to knock Shiek down a peg. It's been a year and two months since Metaknight overtook Snake in rankings and nothing big has been discovered that has made Metaknight less effective that's still around. As I said earlier, Snake's grab release into utilt/ftilt was worked around as was Bowser's grab release "chain grab" as was Yoshi's grab release to fair spike at 40% as was Shiek's tilt lock as was the Ice Climbers' ice block lock as was Falco's lazer lock... and so on and so forth.

 

[AvaricePanda]

well i like both arguments to a point, but i'm still for his bann considering nobdy uses specific characters due to his existence in competitive brawl, and more notably the fact that he has no counter-picks.

Its an easy decision to bann a character whom give anyone, aside from their skill level, a unfair and unmatchable addition towards their own victory.

Just remember the point here is that he is unfair to the rest of the brawl cast and this community, absolutely NONE of the comments stating that he cannot be banned because he can be beaten should be considered remotely valid considering its a players choice who to use, just this fact and that the boards themselves point out that he has no counter makes him not valid for strategical counter-picking and professional gameplay.

No bad match-ups in a game that doesn't rely on the character counterpick system in mid and especially high levels of play, and even match-ups apparently don't count.

Yeah...

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Well I guess this will some how go into a pokemon competitiveness being compared to brawl thread

That's actually an interesting topic we've dicussed before in the PC also Cubone wears his mothers skull.

Try this one on for size, what do they eat for meat in the pokeworld?

:flame:
I thought they all ate Tofu.

And Pokemon Compeditiveness and Brawl Compeditiveness are two different things. Knowing your enemy early in Brawl gives you strategies on how to fight, but never secures a win. In Pokemon, you are capable of calculating down to .5 points of damage who would win and lose in a Pokemon Battle. Not to mentio nthee are over 200 Pokemon that are capable of being viably used, and aroun 20 Pokemon Gods that litterally **** the other 500 Pokemon in existance. Metaknight wouldn't stand a chance against Pokemon Mewtwo.
:flame:

 

['V']

That's actually an interesting topic we've dicussed before in the PC also Cubone wears his mothers skull.

Try this one on for size, what do they eat for meat in the pokeworld?

I believe I've seen some people talking about eating cheeseburgers, for which you need beef.

Miltank?

 

[Hobobloke]

We boiled it down to Milktank/Tauros farming, take that Pokemo! Not so peaceful anymore are you.

 

[MarKO X]

tauros meat is meatier

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

I believe I've seen some people talking about eating cheeseburgers, for which you need beef.

Miltank?

:flame:
What about me and the other Black Pokemon Trainers that are never properly represented in any of the games, other than the 1 RSE Elite 4 Member, who all prefer Fried Chicken?

And to the dude who commented on me laughing at Playing Jigglypuff compeditively.... dude, who the frick mains Jigglypuff and expects to get anywhere compeditively? Banned or not banned, Metaknight is the least of Jigglypuff's probems.
:flame:

 

[gantrain05]

this thread sucks, now you guys are on to pokemon?

 

[kirbywizard]

And to the dude who commented on me laughing at Playing Jigglypuff compeditively.... dude, who the frick mains Jigglypuff and expects to get anywhere compeditively? Banned or not banned, Metaknight is the least of Jigglypuff's probems.[/COLOR]
:flame:

Jiggs how I miss your greatness from Melee. Now look what they did to you.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Because Metaknight's presence obviously overshadows those characters. Why play Peach when Metaknight ***** her? Why play Marth and Game and Watch when they have bad match ups against Metaknight? Why play King Dedede when again, it's a particularly hard match up for him? I understand his logic perfectly.

Because Peach is fun for some people. Because some people are good with Peach.
Because Marth is fun for some people. Because some people are good with Marth.
Because Game and Watch is fun for some people. Because some people are good with Game and Watch.
Because King Dedede is fun for some people. Because some people are good with King Dedede.

In your perfect on paper world, everyone would choose Meta Knight because he's the overall best option. And this would be true of all fighters; everyone would choose Fox because he's the overall best option in Melee, everyone would choose Sagat because he's the overall best option in SFIV, etc.

Here's the thing: people don't do that.

For a lot of good reasons, not everyone uses the character that gives them the best advantage. And this is why fighting games have more than one character, and there are able to be healthy competitive fighting game communities.

Some people like playing different people, or are just good with people. Some people suck with Meta Knight, even though he's the best option. Some people just don't have fun with Meta Knight, so they don't want to play him on a competitive level. There are quite a bit of reasons for not choosing the best option in the game.

Or maybe they think they're actually viable characters, or they think their match-up vs. MK is winnable, or better than what most people think. Match-ups are subjective anyway. There's no way to objectively say, "Wario vs. Diddy is 55:45," because of differing opinions. At any rate, 6:4 match-ups are certainly winnable. They're winnable in every other instance, except, of course, when talking of the MK ban.

Why would you main a character with a bad match-up against Snake by that logic, as you're going to be encountering a lot of him in tournaments too? Oh wait, people don't think of that. Because he has a bad match-up, and on paper you can counterpick him, even though you'll never win against a competent Snake if you just counterpick D3 unless you've invested a lot of time in D3 to the point where he's almost your main if he isn't already.

Yeah, Luigi gets ***** by MK, but he gets ***** by a lot of top tier who's presence would only grow in the instance of a ban. Yeah, Jigglypuff loses to MK (and not even by that much), but she gets ***** bya lot of top tier who's presence would only grow in the instance of a ban. Yeah, Olimar loses soundly to MK. But he also loses more soundly to Peach, who's presence would only grow in the instance of a ban.

So I don't understand his logic.

Fixed for clarity.

So are you denying the fact that low tiers generally have a disadvantage in other fighting games, or are you denying the fact that there are other fighting games with a top character with at worst even match-ups with healthy competitive scenes?

Don't be silly.

The community was maybe 1/5 the size it is now and even back then it only took them about 10 months to find a way to knock Shiek down a peg. It's been a year and two months since Metaknight overtook Snake in rankings and nothing big has been discovered that has made Metaknight less effective that's still around. As I said earlier, Snake's grab release into utilt/ftilt was worked around as was Bowser's grab release "chain grab" as was Yoshi's grab release to fair spike at 40% as was Shiek's tilt lock as was the Ice Climbers' ice block lock as was Falco's lazer lock... and so on and so forth.

Diddy Kong.

To eliminate as much of these theorycraft numbers as possible, I'm going to say this.

Diddy Kong has known techs not often used at the top of his metagame. Single banana locking will propel him quite a bit, as will incorporating more instant throws, as will working out the kinks of mid-range pressure and zoning game (which is what made many of his match-ups easier, such as Marth which is widely accepted to be even now instead of one of his worst match-ups).

There is known room for him to improve in his match-up against MK. What known room does MK have to grow?

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Jiggs how I miss your greatness from Melee. Now look what they did to you.

:flame:
I do know what you mean. I used to love playing with Fox, not even for the element of Shining, bt just because of his speed and power, and now, he's Pikachu's ****-toy. ;.; A Fox being ***** by a Mouse. ;.;

Didn't mean to get rude to you, dude.
:flame:

 

[MarKO X]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGh4ZU4H5Hk

 

[kirbywizard]

:flame:
I do know what you mean. I used to love playing with Fox, not even for the element of Shining, bt just because of his speed and power, and now, he's Pikachu's ****-toy. ;.; A Fox being ***** by a Mouse. ;.;

Didn't mean to get rude to you, dude.
:flame:

I really do not mind rudeness in a debate thread.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGh4ZU4H5Hk

:flame:
Sunds like a dude trying to convince other people to take drugs.

DON'T GIVE INTO PEER PRESSURE!
:flame:

 

[Blatt Blvd]

so far, the only legit argument the pro-bans have is the EDC glitch thing.

i can definitely see that move being a huge problem in tourney if m2k is already using it to cheat.

other than that, no argument holds water on their side.

 

['V']

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGh4ZU4H5Hk

It's rather sad that that's what you have to do to really win in this age.