Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Brinzy]

In the meantime, FOR THE ALLIANCE.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Yeah you respond with scrub answers lol

I'll say it for the record, I'd rather see Metaknight banned on a "scrub" mentality, have people realise that this game is shallow and probably won't change much in the coming years, and still see people playing this game up until SSB4 comes out then see him kept in game to follow competitive standards of other fighting game communities, act like Brawl will magically become better overtime, and have most people bored with it by the end of 2010 and revert mostly to Brawl+ and online play.

You know what, I'm an online tournament director and I compete online. Most people still look down on online players despite it being shown that online players can compete just as well with offline players offline. We're called scrubs and talentless but we still come here, we still support this community despite people like M2K going on the record and saying that online is nothing more than people spamming projectiles and smash attack and magically winning despite his fiercest rival, Ally, being one of the best online players too. This decision doesn't effect us. Metaknight has legitimate counters in online play so we don't have the same problems that you guys do. Why does this matter to me then? It's because this is my community and I love Smash. I want people to stay interested in vBrawl and I see more and more people going to alternatives with each passing month and deciding vBrawl just isn't worth it anymore.

As already explained, all the things that make competitive Brawl "gay" are preventable, except Metaknight which is why I see that it's important that we cut our losses with this to preserve the game in the long run. I hate this "if it dies, it dies" mentality that some of the anti side seems to have because trying to preserve a game and make it more competitive by eliminating one thing somehow goes against competitive standards. As said many times before, Brawl can't really afford to keep going on as it is especially when Brawl's metagame development has been very slow as of late and the game has been dissected almost entirely except for character models and the Subspace Emissary.

 

[1048576]

If the goal is to create a game where everyone except MK mains and those who don't mind losing to players of equal skill level no matter what they do quits, then anti-ban seems like the obvious choice. It's not hard to imagine that we'd rather have some character diversity.

We could ban MK in teams so that we kind of have two metagames and see which one the community would prefer.

 

[:mad:]

it's been at 54-53% yes and 46-47% no for like a week and a half now.

07-28-2009, 05:48 PM

What? Week and a half?

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

out of curiosity, if the argument is "its still too early to decide!" wouldn't that mean there'll be more votes in the future...?

 

[:mad:]

out of curiosity, if the argument is "its still too early to decide!" wouldn't that mean there'll be more votes in the future...?

Possibly. Though some people believe Snake will start to dominate and there might be even less votes.

Wait until Meta's Game the metagame advances.

 

[Remzi]

First, any extension of EDC is banned under IDC.

Second, how is it not easy to track at all? Noticing that dimensional cape goes a second longer than it normally does isn't hard to track. The person can't change directions, go too far back, or be in the cape for a certain amount of time. In brackets, there's probably at least one person watching your match, especially later on. In early brackets or pools, there's probably not a ****load of cheering to the point where you can't hear anything, so you should be able to hear the opponent tapping up on their C-stick.

It does not push you much further, but the push you get is usually just enough to get you out of range. The one M2K did was more than one tap of the c-stick.

It will make people paranoid. Let's look at this scenario:

I'm pressuring an MK, I fair him and he does a standard DC away from me. He timed it well and I was unable to punish, I think to myself "hey i think he went a little further than normal, i think i may have heard a clicking sound when he did it too" so I end up calling over a TO and we have a bunch of problems that can't be solved by either side. I'm swearing my *** off that he pushed up on the c-stick and went way further than usual. The TO decides to watch the rest of the match and nothing happens for the remainder of the match. All in all we caused some heart-ache, after the match I'm still convinced he did it. Me and that player now have a lot of problems, the TO now has trouble trusting both players.

Now lets look at another scenario:

I'm playing an MK, last stock and high percents. Game 3. I pressure him to the edge of the stage and he EDCs to the middle. I dash > usmash in an attempt to punish and win, but it whiffs because of the extra distance. He punishes with Dsmash for the kill and win. I'm pretty sure he used EDC so I call the TO. No proof. Just both of us promising our side of the story is true. MK takes the win.

In either scenario, witnesses aren't really sure either. They don't wanna make the wrong call so they abstain from answering. Or if they do call it, theres a good chance they make the wrong one.

This will cause far too many problems if people start using it at all.

Just incase people start talking about how people can lie about D3 infinites too, thats completely different. Lets say I'm Mario and I get regrabbed, I can pause after the first regrab. Call a TO, it won't happen anymore. Thats just a few percent, nothing big. Also, witnesses can EASILY identify this. On top of all of that, this rule is less likely to be violated and lied about, because the victim is 100% sure that it happened. With EDC, the victim can't be 100% sure and because of that, the violator knows it's easier to lie about and get away with.

 

[Master Raven]

Maybe their voting doesn't count in the public poll if they already have done so in the back room?

 

[MarKO X]

honor?

this made me lol.
cause like, i definitely imagined those situations.

 

[bobson]

out of curiosity, if the argument is "its still too early to decide!" wouldn't that mean there'll be more votes in the future...?

This is supposed to be the "final" vote, but it's practically guaranteed that no one will stop *****ing about Metaknight after the SBR votes no.

 

[Tien2500]

This is supposed to be the "final" vote, but it's practically guaranteed that no one will stop *****ing about Metaknight after the SBR votes no.

Of course not. Its ridiculous to say its final. If the game continues being played and the situation changes somehow naturally the topic should be reopened.

 

[Remzi]

this made me lol.
cause like, i definitely imagined those situations.

lmfao get that **** out of here, honor is for the japanese

 

[Sosuke]

It's the final COMMUNITY vote.

 

[Tien2500]

It's the final COMMUNITY vote.

Lol. We actually matter for a brief moment in time.

Edit: Not really.

 

[Kamikaze*]

It's been 53-54% proban for the last 3 days, you have 7 more days to go.

So relieving.

 

[demonictoonlink]

There can't really be a final vote yet...The games is always changing...

 

[Sosuke]

Lol. We actually matter for a brief moment in time.

Edit: Not really.

Because a year
is nothing

 

[:mad:]

There can't really be a final vote yet...The games is always changing...

The game is always changing? In what regards?

 

[Masmasher@]

I'll say it for the record, I'd rather see Metaknight banned on a "scrub" mentality, have people realise that this game is shallow and probably won't change much in the coming years, and still see people playing this game up until SSB4 comes out then see him kept in game to follow competitive standards of other fighting game communities, act like Brawl will magically become better overtime, and have most people bored with it by the end of 2010 and revert mostly to Brawl+ and online play.

You know what, I'm an online tournament director and I compete online. Most people still look down on online players despite it being shown that online players can compete just as well with offline players offline. We're called scrubs and talentless but we still come here, we still support this community despite people like M2K going on the record and saying that online is nothing more than people spamming projectiles and smash attack and magically winning despite his fiercest rival, Ally, being one of the best online players too. This decision doesn't effect us. Metaknight has legitimate counters in online play so we don't have the same problems that you guys do. Why does this matter to me then? It's because this is my community and I love Smash. I want people to stay interested in vBrawl and I see more and more people going to alternatives with each passing month and deciding vBrawl just isn't worth it anymore.

As already explained, all the things that make competitive Brawl "gay" are preventable, except Metaknight which is why I see that it's important that we cut our losses with this to preserve the game in the long run. I hate this "if it dies, it dies" mentality that some of the anti side seems to have because trying to preserve a game and make it more competitive by eliminating one thing somehow goes against competitive standards. As said many times before, Brawl can't really afford to keep going on as it is especially when Brawl's metagame development has been very slow as of late and the game has been dissected almost entirely except for character models and the Subspace Emissary.

I can sympathize with this but you have to realize that people are going to leave ether way. As you can see from the poll the community is basically spilt about it.
Why lose dignity to keep some off these people and possibly lose the ones who apperciate competition. Listen... You paragraph is basically saying ban metaknight cause it will make the game more fun. Fun is subjective. You know what a scrub is? its a person that thinks the game should be played a certain way and that if isnt played their way then you are terrible and/or the game is bad. They are whining. Would you have have a community of whiny brats or people who work hard and compete with there characters. Competition is what this community is built on. Its not that people are trying to compare to other communities, its that this community falls into the same category. Scrubs are detrimental to competition they ruin it. I'm not saying that the whole pro ban side are a bunch of whiners (some of them have resonable motives) but most of them are. They would like nothing more then to have you do what they say cause they say so.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Of course not. Its ridiculous to say its final. If the game continues being played and the situation changes somehow naturally the topic should be reopened.

It really is because it's not like this issue is going to go away unless Metaknight magically becomes less popular in the coming months or, even less likely, something big is discovered that legitmately counters Metaknight.

It's the final COMMUNITY vote.

Which is a real shame because we already know where this is going to go since this is the fourth time this has been brought up... in one year.

There can't really be a final vote yet...The games is always changing...

Truth be told, it isn't and the last major, practical discovery found in this game was like last spring. Since then, only a few characters have really grown and developed while others have become worse or have fallen more and more to the wayside. With just about everybody except Metaknight and Snake, their standings are largely based on one or two players.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

its a person that thinks the game should be played a certain way and that if isnt played their way then you are terrible and/or the game is bad. They are whining

"I read sirlin so now I"m an expert on competitive gaming"

 

[IxxI]

Edit: Nevermind, this post was stupid.

 

[Brinzy]

So what would you define a scrub as?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

So what would you define a scrub as?

I don't use the word scrub because it's needlessly insulting, plus it's a bro word and I hate bro words.

Calling everyone who wants an MK ban a player without a competitive attitude is silly, though, given that there are several good players and sportsmen pro-ban right now.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Bro word?

pls explain.

sounds interesting

 

[Masmasher@]

This applies to life as well
Whining doesnt get you much...

 

[MetalMusicMan]

lol how is scrub a bro word?


Regardless, you can use any word you want to describe a "scrub", that doesn't change what it is.


A rose by any other name...



"Competitive gamers" that hate playing to win are so silly.

 

[noradseven]

you have an escape move...

that is invincible...

Spoiler

and invisible.

and you don't have to move.

too bad the camera angle telegraphs your posistion, as long as its a 1v1 match.

And it has a vulnerability time on ending.

I thought the EDC was banned because they didn't want ppl being tricky, with it and going we arn't stalling *wink *wink

 

[Pierce7d]

Uh, for those of you who are suggesting you can punish MK for using any form of EDC, you're acting very silly right now. You don't have even close to the time to punish him unless you are Pit, Falco, or R.O.B. and quite frankly, I think Falco would prefer relatively good edge pressure over the single laser he'd land as resulting damage, and the other characters are inviable to fight MK. EDC should ALWAYS be banned, or I'm going to personally main MK.

Also, saying the community is bad/scrubby/etc is being an elitist prick. Sure, there are younger members of the community, sure we aren't stupidly strict in all of our rulesets. Guess what, it's a game. Sorry not everyone is so hardass about their video games. The fact is, the better players still win, with or without MK, so regardless if people have a more laidback attitude, especially considering this particular topic, lay off.

It's true that there are very few high level players, and that a lot of people aren't that good at this game, but I'd like to point something out: SF has a lot of top players, because the franchise has been around for AGES. Smash has a lot of top players for the same reason, but half of them still play Melee exclusively, so we're talking about a community who has yet to fully understand and grasp this game, because to them, it's entirely new. One and a half years is still new even for a video game. There are many players with potential, but still largely untrained, or lacking in experience. I'm naturally intelligent, which helps me progress to a relatively high level, but really I'm only good because I practice this game every day, and READ A **** TON OF DATA AND STRATEGIES, and theory-craft constantly before I sleep and when I'm bored and while I'm eating. I watch videos, but not just for fun, but I'm constantly analyzing players on ALL levels of play and determine WHY they made those decisions. Even with all of this effort, I'm just beginning to barely breach high level play. I played Melee competitively towards the end, but I had to learn tech skill and important ATs such as L-Canceling, before I could begin to understand the depths of decision making and mindgames.

That all being said, I reiterate what I said before about MK potentially being ban-able, but that's all paper, and only at high level play, where the better players usually win anyway. There aren't enough high level players in this game to ban anything really. M2k would still win if there were items and dumb stages because he would learn them better and still win, and the randomness or broken strategies wouldn't mean jack because there are probably only like 50 players in the country who are actually good enough to win with them. Perhaps MK is ban-able, but it currently doesn't make a bit of difference, except for the aesthetics of a tourney results page.

That being said, MK is definitely highly annoying at mid-level play, and detrimental to the community. You are really deciding whether you are shifting the way the top level players get to play for the sake of letting everyone else have more fun, because I know I'm still not going to beat M2k after you ban MK. He'll still go even with Ally, and the top players will remain on top. It WILL hurt the metagame to ban him, because we aren't patient enough to let everyone get over metaknight and develop their other MUs (hell, it took me a year and a half to learn vs Snake, and I STILL don't know vs R.O.B.)

You shouldn't really be asking "Is MK ban-able" because there is no way most of you can even recognize what makes him ban-able or not, or play at a level where it matters. You should do as Fatmanonice suggested, and determine how it will affect the community, which is the most important thing ANYWAY. Even if he was broken, if there was an outcry of 66% to keep him because he was so loved for whatever reason, we should probably still keep him, and the same is true for otherwise. We're not playing this game for SRK, we're playing it for us, and IMO it should be our settings, our way. SBR is our guiding force, so use this poll to let them know how you personally feel.

The real part that keeps me on the fence is that some tournaments contain only mid-level players that are using MK to win money. This is a real fact, and it's happening. Not all of these tourneys are reported on Smashboards, and many are ignored, but it truth that there are many small tournaments where noobs go to win with MK. I was at one of them last weekend, and if neither Keitaro or I had gone, then that tournament would've been decided by character and ignored player skill. At huge, regional and national tourneys, where many big name players show up, MK is not an issue. However, some states don't have an abundance of top players spread out to **** their locals, and some states don't even have top players. Smaller communities are being snuffed out by MK like the plague.

All of that being said, ban Ice Climbers. They are the ultimate skill leveling tool, since they are able to do something so destructive as to destroy an entire stock off of a mistake or a TRIP. It was really dumb, but really funny as I was talking to Atomsk while playing him Marth vs IC, and we were talking about how dumb ICs were because in this case, truly, the better player does not always win, and you can take a stock off of either a mistake or a trip. 5 seconds after I uttered the word trip, I tripped, and proceeded to lose my stock from 22%, and this is at a moderately high level of play. Atomsk is better than me, but it is not impossible for me to win, and I took several games off of his ICs, while he took probably 65% off my Marth. However, it is impossible for me to win if something utterly dumb like tripping happens, and if it's on the neutral, that might be the set, especially considering he doesn't have to use ICs on his CP and choose some other dumb MU. Consider that if he goes IC R2 on my CP, then regardless of my an, he can still pick a character that wins tremendously on FD, RC, FO, Brinstar, Halberd, etc. R1 trips make ICs broken beyond any doubt in my mind. Just as broken as items.

You don't have to learn how to play Smash to win with ICs. You have to learn how Blizzard, grab, pivot grab, spot dodge, shield, Uair and IC sideB (who's name escapes me atm) works, and then learn the chaingrab to KO. Applying this to most MUs can let mid level players win, against all but the very best, and even the best if they happen to trip/make a single mistake in a normally very forgiving game.

Quoted for edit, and because I say new things that haven't already been said in this thread that are meaningful to the topic and we should discuss them

 

[Prawn]

You don't have to learn how to play Smash to win with ICs. You have to learn how Blizzard, grab, pivot grab, spot dodge, shield, Uair and IC sideB (who's name escapes me atm) works, and then learn the chaingrab to KO.

None of this makes any sense, so you listed an extremely paraphased version of the ICs metagame and think it qualifies as not smash?

Also if all these "mid-level" players can beat pretty high up "skillful" players, then why are the ONLY truly sucessful ICs Lain, Meep and Hylian?

EDIT: There are others of course, but I'm just trying to put across a point that this supposedly "bannable" character is much less underused then say...metaknight. haha

 

[Pierce7d]

None of this makes any sense, so you listed an extremely paraphased version of the ICs metagame and think it qualifies as not smash?

Also if all these "mid-level" players can beat pretty high up "skillful" players, then why are the ONLY truly sucessful ICs Lain, Meep and Hylian?

You don't have to truly understand the fundamentals and deeper aspects of smash, only how those aspects work.

And it's because fortunately, MK still wins. I would wait a little while and see what happens when more players start picking up IC. How many times have you even met a player that could perform the infinite. I challenge you to learn how to play ICs. You will not have to increase your knowledge and power in Smash. The ability to use ICs WILL carry you if you have any kind of latent talent, and I'm convinced top level players will beat each other if they start using this character, with the exception of MK being able to camp him really hard, and Snake possibly winning, due to the nature of grenades being able to compensate for him making an error. I have lost a match (though not the set) to a player quite obviously leagues below me in skill level due to tripping into a grab.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I can sympathize with this but you have to realize that people are going to leave ether way. As you can see from the poll the community is basically spilt about it.
Why lose dignity to keep some off these people and possibly lose the ones who apperciate competition. Listen... You paragraph is basically saying ban metaknight cause it will make the game more fun. Fun is subjective. You know what a scrub is? its a person that thinks the game should be played a certain way and that if isnt played their way then you are terrible and/or the game is bad. They are whining. Would you have have a community of whiny brats or people who work hard and compete with there characters. Competition is what this community is built on. Its not that people are trying to compare to other communities, its that this community falls into the same category. Scrubs are detrimental to competition they ruin it. I'm not saying that the whole pro ban side are a bunch of whiners (some of them have resonable motives) but most of them are. They would like nothing more then to have you do what they say cause they say so.

That's the thing, we've had a terrible mix of both. We've had a large number of people who have simply switched to Metaknight and a small amount of people who have stuck with their characters to try to find a way to counter him. That's why this is even a problem. Too many people switched to Metaknight after he passed Snake in the rankings. A year has passed and many of those Metaknight players have become better as well as Snake players to somewhat counter him. That's why the rankings are the way they are with the rest of the cast trailing behind them. That's why Metaknight has triple the amount of placings than Snake has when it comes to all the major tournaments that have occured this year.

Also, what's wrong with the game lasting longer as a result of more characters becoming competitively viable and, in a sense, rejuvenating the metagame? In a sense, the game becomes more competitive, not less. As I already mentioned, Brawl skims by as competitive as it is so it can't truly be compared to other fighting game communities.

Also, the true "whiners" have been countered plenty of times. Chain grabs are allowed. Infinites are allowed. Camping's allowed. Jab locks are allowed. Tough characters like Snake and the Ice Climbers are allowed. Why? It's because the counterpick system tells them "if you're having a problem with something, do this" not "try this and you might get by" in the case of Metaknight. If this were Melee, this wouldn't be an issue but, unfortunately, more match ups in Brawl are decided by simple strategies then not which is why Metaknight is as good as he is.

Also, you don't think anybody who voted Pro-ban doesn't appreciate competition? It could be just as easily argued that they want more of it. They want Brawl to be more than just beating Metaknight (and Snake to a lesser extent). They want competition to be focused on beating out 5-6 people. They don't want 50% of their competition to be a character they can't even counterpick even if they decide to play as said character. At least with Fox in Melee you had the chance to 0-death him (or at least do a decent amount of damage) if he messed up. In a sense, Metaknight doesn't really get punished for mistakes like the rest of the cast does which contributes to the problems as a whole. As previously said, in a game like Brawl, Metaknight is admitably broken although not by the common standard used for other fighting games.

 

[Tien2500]

Quoted for edit, and because I say new things that haven't already been said in this thread that are meaningful to the topic and we should discuss them

Climbers are hard to use. Seriously. If you don't get good at running powershielding your climbers are going to get split up pretty easily. You can get platform camped too on a lot of stages (not just places like Norfair). Snake destroys them. They can be outcamped and outspaced. The grabs are hard to master. Its not a comparable situation.

 

[Prawn]

You don't have to truly understand the fundamentals and deeper aspects of smash, only how those aspects work.

And it's because fortunately, MK still wins. I would wait a little while and see what happens when more players start picking up IC. How many times have you even met a player that could perform the infinite. I challenge you to learn how to play ICs. You will not have to increase your knowledge and power in Smash. The ability to use ICs WILL carry you if you have any kind of latent talent, and I'm convinced top level players will beat each other if they start using this character, with the exception of MK being able to camp him really hard, and Snake possibly winning, due to the nature of grenades being able to compensate for him making an error. I have lost a match (though not the set) to a player quite obviously leagues below me in skill level due to tripping into a grab.

Well first off I main ICs, but anyways,

have you tried playing ICs at a competitive level? The level of skill required to even keep Nana alive against a really good player is ridiculous, let alone get a grab with one of the worst grab ranges in the game. Also, you act like tripping into a Snake Fsmash etc etc isn't almost as terrible as tripping into a CG. Tripping as a whole is stupid.

 

[Pierce7d]

Climbers are hard to use. Seriously. If you don't get good at running powershielding your climbers are going to get split up pretty easily. You can get platform camped too on a lot of stages (not just places like Norfair). Snake destroys them. They can be outcamped and outspaced. The grabs are hard to master. Its not a comparable situation.

Powershielding and chaingrabbing are merely mastering timing, being able to do these two things shouldn't make you a good player automatically, but it does. Platform camping is breakable, especially if they get a lead, which they should because their own camping is quite formidable. At high level play, this character is even better, AND still underdeveloped.

 

[MarKO X]

*blinks twice*

did this just turn into a ban ICs thread?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Powershielding and chaingrabbing are merely mastering timing, being able to do these two things shouldn't make you a good player automatically, but it does. Platform camping is breakable, especially if they get a lead, which they should because their own camping is quite formidable. At high level play, this character is even better, AND still underdeveloped.

Also, "skill to perform" has nothing to do with whether or not something is too good.

 

[Tien2500]

Powershielding and chaingrabbing are merely mastering timing, being able to do these two things shouldn't make you a good player automatically, but it does. Platform camping is breakable, especially if they get a lead, which they should because their own camping is quite formidable. At high level play, this character is even better, AND still underdeveloped.

I'd say consistently powershielding (you have to do it while running because Nana's shield doesn't work as well otherwise) while properly spacing and punishing opponents lag are pretty fundamental skills. Certain characters can outcamp Ice Climbers very well and some can platform/aircamp very effectively.

 

[Hobobloke]

But what about those that can't? They get punished for not being able to run away?

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Also, "skill to perform" has nothing to do with whether or not something is too good.

Wow. We agree on something.