Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Pierce7d]

Uh, for those of you who are suggesting you can punish MK for using any form of EDC, you're acting very silly right now. You don't have even close to the time to punish him unless you are Pit, Falco, or R.O.B. and quite frankly, I think Falco would prefer relatively good edge pressure over the single laser he'd land as resulting damage, and the other characters are inviable to fight MK. EDC should ALWAYS be banned, or I'm going to personally main MK.

Also, saying the community is bad/scrubby/etc is being an elitist prick. Sure, there are younger members of the community, sure we aren't stupidly strict in all of our rulesets. Guess what, it's a game. Sorry not everyone is so hardass about their video games. The fact is, the better players still win, with or without MK, so regardless if people have a more laidback attitude, especially considering this particular topic, lay off.

It's true that there are very few high level players, and that a lot of people aren't that good at this game, but I'd like to point something out: SF has a lot of top players, because the franchise has been around for AGES. Smash has a lot of top players for the same reason, but half of them still play Melee exclusively, so we're talking about a community who has yet to fully understand and grasp this game, because to them, it's entirely new. One and a half years is still new even for a video game. There are many players with potential, but still largely untrained, or lacking in experience. I'm naturally intelligent, which helps me progress to a relatively high level, but really I'm only good because I practice this game every day, and READ A **** TON OF DATA AND STRATEGIES, and theory-craft constantly before I sleep and when I'm bored and while I'm eating. I watch videos, but not just for fun, but I'm constantly analyzing players on ALL levels of play and determine WHY they made those decisions. Even with all of this effort, I'm just beginning to barely breach high level play. I played Melee competitively towards the end, but I had to learn tech skill and important ATs such as L-Canceling, before I could begin to understand the depths of decision making and mindgames.

That all being said, I reiterate what I said before about MK potentially being ban-able, but that's all paper, and only at high level play, where the better players usually win anyway. There aren't enough high level players in this game to ban anything really. M2k would still win if there were items and dumb stages because he would learn them better and still win, and the randomness or broken strategies wouldn't mean jack because there are probably only like 50 players in the country who are actually good enough to win with them. Perhaps MK is ban-able, but it currently doesn't make a bit of difference, except for the aesthetics of a tourney results page.

That being said, MK is definitely highly annoying at mid-level play, and detrimental to the community. You are really deciding whether you are shifting the way the top level players get to play for the sake of letting everyone else have more fun, because I know I'm still not going to beat M2k after you ban MK. He'll still go even with Ally, and the top players will remain on top. It WILL hurt the metagame to ban him, because we aren't patient enough to let everyone get over metaknight and develop their other MUs (hell, it took me a year and a half to learn vs Snake, and I STILL don't know vs R.O.B.)

You shouldn't really be asking "Is MK ban-able" because there is no way most of you can even recognize what makes him ban-able or not, or play at a level where it matters. You should do as Fatmanonice suggested, and determine how it will affect the community, which is the most important thing ANYWAY. Even if he was broken, if there was an outcry of 66% to keep him because he was so loved for whatever reason, we should probably still keep him, and the same is true for otherwise. We're not playing this game for SRK, we're playing it for us, and IMO it should be our settings, our way. SBR is our guiding force, so use this poll to let them know how you personally feel.

The real part that keeps me on the fence is that some tournaments contain only mid-level players that are using MK to win money. This is a real fact, and it's happening. Not all of these tourneys are reported on Smashboards, and many are ignored, but it truth that there are many small tournaments where noobs go to win with MK. I was at one of them last weekend, and if neither Keitaro or I had gone, then that tournament would've been decided by character and ignored player skill. At huge, regional and national tourneys, where many big name players show up, MK is not an issue. However, some states don't have an abundance of top players spread out to **** their locals, and some states don't even have top players. Smaller communities are being snuffed out by MK like the plague.

All of that being said, ban Ice Climbers. They are the ultimate skill leveling tool, since they are able to do something so destructive as to destroy an entire stock off of a mistake or a TRIP. It was really dumb, but really funny as I was talking to Atomsk while playing him Marth vs IC, and we were talking about how dumb ICs were because in this case, truly, the better player does not always win, and you can take a stock off of either a mistake or a trip. 5 seconds after I uttered the word trip, I tripped, and proceeded to lose my stock from 22%, and this is at a moderately high level of play. Atomsk is better than me, but it is not impossible for me to win, and I took several games off of his ICs, while he took probably 65% off my Marth. However, it is impossible for me to win if something utterly dumb like tripping happens, and if it's on the neutral, that might be the set, especially considering he doesn't have to use ICs on his CP and choose some other dumb MU. Consider that if he goes IC R2 on my CP, then regardless of my an, he can still pick a character that wins tremendously on FD, RC, FO, Brinstar, Halberd, etc. R1 trips make ICs broken beyond any doubt in my mind. Just as broken as items.

You don't have to learn how to play Smash to win with ICs. You have to learn how Blizzard, grab, pivot grab, spot dodge, shield, Uair and IC sideB (who's name escapes me atm) works, and then learn the chaingrab to KO. Applying this to most MUs can let mid level players win, against all but the very best, and even the best if they happen to trip/make a single mistake in a normally very forgiving game.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Talk of MK needing a disadvantageous match-up seems very overrated at this point, given that most players stomach through other 45:55, 4:6, and 35:65 match-ups as long as they aren't going to get completely demolished. How many people would honestly start counterpicking MK's slight advantage if he got one? Probably not many. MK mains would know the match-up like no other, and nobody would get away with counterpicking as him except a devoted main of that character.

This point is silly and always will be silly. To the opponent yes it's "just another 4:6 match-up." To the MK player it's an easy guarantee they'll never be at a disadvantage.

It isn't that MK wrecks the whole cast or anything like that as we've said a million times before, it's that MK players are given a handicap statistically over the course of a tournament. You guys have argued all kinds of ridiculous things in this thread in order to justify MK's legality (such as the glitches like IDC and game-altering "strategies"like planking; just the fact that we have to design rules around MK is a problem). Please don't tell me you're doing to start repeating arguments that have been repeatedly responded to, because that would imply you don't have anything else to say.

 

[Remzi]

Uh, for those of you who are suggesting you can punish MK for using any form of EDC, you're acting very silly right now. You don't have even close to the time to punish him unless you are Pit, Falco, or R.O.B. and quite frankly, I think Falco would prefer relatively good edge pressure over the single laser he'd land as resulting damage, and the other characters are inviable to fight MK. EDC should ALWAYS be banned, or I'm going to personally main MK.

thank you, its still hard for me to believe people don't see this

And the problem still remains that this tech is not easy to track at all, and people will be able to get away with it without much of a problem.

 

[TP]

Please don't tell me you're doing to start repeating arguments that have been repeatedly responded to, because that would imply you don't have anything else to say.

I'm pretty sure neither side has brought up any new points in the last 4,000 posts.

How do you view the results of the poll? I know this has been answered 100 times, but please make it 101.

 

[AvaricePanda]

As other people have said, you fail to put other things into consideration:

1. Not every competitive player has a Smash Boards account and may come over here from AllisBrawl or another site.

2. Someone could just as easily say "lol, I bEaT mY bRoS mK wIf IkE aLl Da TiMe."

3. People could just as easily make multiple accounts to vote no.

4. Not everybody who goes to tournaments are experts and most of the people who do go are regular joes. Expecting people to be fully informed simply because they go to tournaments is a bit much, don't you think? You also have to consider that most people don't go to tournaments on a regular basis.

I know you don't agree with the opposing side but try not to antagonize them in such a manner.

When did I ever once say that:

1) The poll being on SWF heavily skews it to pro-ban.
2) People would make new accounts to only vote yes, and not no.
3) Tournament goers are more heavily anti-ban
4) All tournament goers are able to construct an argument well?

I only hinted at one, and even then, new people could vote any way, because some would find him cheap and some would find the notion silly. For two, I specifically put a pro-ban and anti-ban quote, did you not read the former? I only said that the results would be DIFFERENT for 3-4. Not more in one direction, probably more informed with the tournament goers than the people who got into the competitive scene for a week, but I never said that it would go more in any direction. I said the results would be different. Which they would be.

Here's the quote again, so you can reference and specifically read it. Note how you won't find the words anti-ban, pro-ban, more truthful information, correct information, etc. Just that the two polls will yield different results, because you're taking the data from two different pools of people; smashers in general and smashers that go to tournaments.

So if you ask the question, "Do you think Meta Knight should be banned from competitive gameplay?" in the General Brawl Discussion, a lot of SWF members are going to vote on it. This includes a lot of people relatively new to the game because they see a poll and think, "Lol why would you ban a character?" or "omfg my brother's MK always beats me ban him." Plus, it's easy to create multiple accounts and vote, or use a friend's account he doesn't use much and vote, or whatever.

How about if this question was only asked at the entrance of a tournament?

Say, for example, you're registering for a tournament, and you vote on the poll, "Should Meta Knight be banned from competitive gameplay?" Compared to a thread on SWF, the results are bound to be different. Instead of leaving the poll open to all types of smashers, the poll is being asked to the smashers who go to tournaments, therefore providing different results.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Kinda disturbing how the people who make up MOST of the tournaments have the LEAST say.

Pyramid power son.

then...why argue about something that ultimately they'd have no say in? ???

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm pretty sure neither side has brought up any new points in the last 4,000 posts.

That's because every anti-ban post just repeats something that has been responded to a dozen times, especially when backed into a corner, and then we respond again, and then they repeat themselves.

 

[Remzi]

TO VIEW THE RESULTS OF THE POLL, CLICK ON THE NUMBER OF VOTES FOR EITHER POLL OPTION.

hopethishelpz

 

[Sosuke]

I'm pretty sure neither side has brought up any new points in the last 4,000 posts.

How do you view the results of the poll? I know this has been answered 100 times, but please make it 101.

Click the numbers at the top.




edit:
Darn you ninja D:<

 

[TP]

That's because every anti-ban post just repeats something that has been responded to a dozen times, especially when backed into a corner, and then we respond again, and then they repeat themselves.

You are way overconfident in your views. I'm pro-ban too, but you need to understand that both sides have valid arguments. Being so cocky makes you look foolish and casts a bad light on pro-ban as a whole.



EDIT: Thanks for answering, guys.

 

[Masmasher@]

Yeah you respond with scrub answers lol

 

[Alus]

That's because every anti-ban post just repeats something that has been responded to a dozen times, especially when backed into a corner, and then we respond again, and then they repeat themselves.

Anti-ban has been debunking bull**** what do you expect? YOU guys need to bring up something new that proves that MK should be banned ...that has been the problem.

 

[xDD-Master]

There should be a tournament (200+) with TWO different singles.

One with MK and one with MK-banned. The pools should be the same.

Then we will see the results of the MK-banned singles and how many changes there are to the normal results.

This would help the discussion A LOT.

 

[Brinzy]

That's because every anti-ban post just repeats something that has been responded to a dozen times, especially when backed into a corner, and then we respond again, and then they repeat themselves.

"Ok, you two need to stop it."

"He did this and that, when I only did the right thing, but he kept doing it so I had to keep doing the right thing. It's all his fault."

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Also, why do SBR members get to vote twice, once in the public poll and once in the private one?

Anti-ban has been debunking bull**** what do you expect? YOU guys need to bring up something new that proves that MK should be banned ...that has been the problem.

Sorry, appeals to history (other fighting games don't ban X), ad hominem (only scrubs want MK banned!), links to Ankoku's statistically irrelevant results thread, etc. do not debunk anything and only prove you don't know how debate works.

With that said, pro-ban needs to cut that "community wants him gone" **** out. That's fallacious too.

 

[AvaricePanda]

thank you, its still hard for me to believe people don't see this

And the problem still remains that this tech is not easy to track at all, and people will be able to get away with it without much of a problem.

First, any extension of EDC is banned under IDC.

Second, how is it not easy to track at all? Noticing that dimensional cape goes a second longer than it normally does isn't hard to track. The person can't change directions, go too far back, or be in the cape for a certain amount of time. In brackets, there's probably at least one person watching your match, especially later on. In early brackets or pools, there's probably not a ****load of cheering to the point where you can't hear anything, so you should be able to hear the opponent tapping up on their C-stick.

 

[Jupz]

Also, why do SBR members get to vote twice, once in the public poll and once in the private one?

The public poll is probably worth much less in the debate then the private one. They should be able to have two votes IMO since they are usually the most educated about the topic.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

There should be a tournament (200+) with TWO different singles.

One with MK and one with MK-banned. The pools should be the same.

Then we will see the results of the MK-banned singles and how many changes there are to the normal results.

This would help the discussion A LOT.

No it wouldn't. Smart anti-ban guys acknowledge things would change. The question is whether or not any change is warranted.

 

[iDeo]

Now I feel dumb for voting to ban MK. Now that I think about more and more on my reasons, it just sounds like I'm covering up for my faults in this game. I mean sure, MK has the moveset that counters almost everything but regardless MK isn't invincible. It just takes time, experience, and patience in order to learn how to beat him with your character.

Some characters won't be able to move-up the tier-list b/c of their character's move-set...but regardless it is possible to win. Even if it's Ganondorf and chances of winning is slim to none, their is the ability for the player to learn how to avoid situations where Ganon is vulnerable to MK's moves. And once again, as it's said by many, it all depends on the player's ability to adapt, learn, and grow from MU experience. Not to mention if you kno your character is bad in this MU, u have the option to CP and increase chances of winning.

Man...I wish I can change my vote now to Anti-Ban.

 

[AvaricePanda]

This point is silly and always will be silly. To the opponent yes it's "just another 4:6 match-up." To the MK player it's an easy guarantee they'll never be at a disadvantage.

It isn't that MK wrecks the whole cast or anything like that as we've said a million times before, it's that MK players are given a handicap statistically over the course of a tournament. You guys have argued all kinds of ridiculous things in this thread in order to justify MK's legality (such as the glitches like IDC and game-altering "strategies"like planking; just the fact that we have to design rules around MK is a problem). Please don't tell me you're doing to start repeating arguments that have been repeatedly responded to, because that would imply you don't have anything else to say.

And how do you know that the MK player will never be at a disadvantage?

blahblahyou'veheardthisargumentamilliontimesbeforeblahblah

But how is there any proof that MK has no even or disadvantageous match-ups now, and none will be even or disadvantageous in the future?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The public poll is probably worth much less in the debate then the private one. They should be able to have two votes IMO since they are usually the most educated about the topic.

They don't need to vote twice. They should be voting once like everyone else. I don't get to pop into the SBR and lay down my vote back there.

And how do you know that the MK player will never be at a disadvantage?

blahblahyou'veheardthisargumentamilliontimesbeforeblahblah

But how is there any proof that MK has no even or disadvantageous match-ups now, and none will be even or disadvantageous in the future?

Because the best MK players place top 8 at every national tournament and don't have a history of frequently losing to other tourney viable characters on the way up the ladder, that's how.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

oops double post sorry

 

[Brinzy]

They don't need to vote twice. They should be voting once like everyone else. I don't get to pop into the SBR and lay down my vote back there.

Obviously, you are not equal.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Obviously, you are not equal.

Right, I'm not in the SBR and they aren't public. Obviously it was meant that there would be a difference between the two polls.

 

[:mad:]

http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=25340

Interesting.

 

[Brinzy]

That difference being the public is included in this poll.

Because this is such a major issue, we decided to let the community have a say in it as well.

Note the "as well" part. This isn't a "ok, you guys decide and we'll be separate" thing. This is a "community" vote.

 

[bobson]

Uh, for those of you who are suggesting you can punish MK for using any form of EDC, you're acting very silly right now. You don't have even close to the time to punish him unless you are Pit, Falco, or R.O.B. and quite frankly, I think Falco would prefer relatively good edge pressure over the single laser he'd land as resulting damage, and the other characters are inviable to fight MK. EDC should ALWAYS be banned, or I'm going to personally main MK.

I was wrong; I just tried it out a couple times, and it is much harder to track than I'd thought. I'd figured since you've got about as much time to punish him coming out of it as you would if he whiffed a dsmash, it wouldn't be hard to punish, but the way MK can move while he's using it makes it much harder to punish.

Also, tags don't show up when you're invisible, so I was wrong there, too.

And hahahahaha Inui got banned AGAIN

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That difference being the public is included in this poll.

Note the "as well" part. This isn't a "ok, you guys decide and we'll be separate" thing. This is a "community" vote.

Bull**** and you know it. The SBR voting twice only makes this three-ring circus voting process even less legitimate. Even more so when you consider that none of the large Meta Knight-playing portion of the SBR is going to vote to ban easy money!

 

[MarKO X]

Also, tags don't show up when you're invisible, so I was wrong there, too.

that's it. i'm convinced.

Sakurai is a genius.

 

[bobson]

Bull**** and you know it. The SBR voting twice only makes this three-ring circus voting process even less legitimate. Even more so when you consider that none of the large Meta Knight-playing portion of the SBR is going to vote to ban easy money!

The SBR are part of the community. Why can't they vote in a community poll?

If anything, I'd prefer they vote here, because it allows us to see generally how each of them will vote in the SBR poll, and how much chance Metaknight has of actually being banned (none).

 

[Brinzy]

Maybe they should discount those votes from the total if it's an issue. It isn't much of one to me, but that's just me...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The SBR are part of the community. Why can't they vote in a community poll?

If anything, I'd prefer they vote here, because it allows us to see generally how each of them will vote in the SBR poll, and how much chance Metaknight has of actually being banned (none).

Because of an obvious conflict of interest. They already have their vote which is worth hundreds of times more than your vote.

 

[Famous]

Wow...this thread is not locked yet?

 

[Brinzy]

This ban will/would affect them as well. For the purposes of this poll only, their vote = one of ours. I'm not gonna deny that they have a lot more influence, however.









Everyone should quit talking about the thread not being locked yet, godDAMMIT.

 

[:mad:]

Wow...this thread is not locked yet?

This poll will close on 08-07-2009 at 05:49 PM

NO U.

 

[Sosuke]

Inui got banned again? o_O
wtf

 

[Famous]

This poll will close on 08-07-2009 at 05:49 PM

NO U.

Wow...SBR gave us too much time to talk about nothing...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I do agree that MK won't be banned. We'll continue to try to create rules of questionable and nebulous criteria in order to keep him around, which makes total sense.

 

[codfish92]

it's been at 54-53% yes and 46-47% no for like a week and a half now.

 

[PB&J]

this thread is dumb now..trying to read like 10 pages of dumb stuff is funny..just ban him and close this thread quick