Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Sosuke]

Just ban his Down-B.

 

[OFY]

I------I <---- regular time

I--------------I <---- broken time

XX:XX:XX <---- timer that shows time elapsed

Its not an issue.

Are you ****ing kidding me?

 

[Remzi]

I------I <---- regular time

I--------------I <---- broken time

XX:XX:XX <---- timer that shows time elapsed

Its not an issue.

Without replay, thats **** near impossible to track.

Also, most matches are longer than 3 minutes, and most Wii's aren't hacked.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Lol @ thrillagorilla's post. Wow. The difference between EDC and normal cape varies with how many inputs are given. It can be almost as short as the normal cape or can be used for a little while more, but it is hard to tell if it was used or not. A rule like that is impossible to enforce correctly without there being conflicts, etc.

 

[MarKO X]

I------I <---- regular time

I--------------I <---- broken time

XX:XX:XX <---- timer that shows time elapsed

Its not an issue.

|-| <--- regular
|-| <--- broken

you don't even have to move.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Its called Oregon, and yes. Most of the time its the out of state players that pick the other available stages.

the part in blue is the part that says that you play on random neutrals for every match, the part in red is the part that says you play with a counterpick system.

pick one.

also, for the record, as far as i can tell Oregon tournaments have crap attendance, and if you play without counterpicks, that might be a reason why.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Its not impossible to track if the TO is looking for it, like they should be in a finals match. I've already stated how to deal with it in regular matches, and though there is no way to prevent it outright if there is no TO watching, if a TO is alerted to a player using it they can be tracked for the rest of the tourney. Also, its already been in play in Oregon and we haven't had an issue with it. Its punishable on start-up and ending.

Edit: @Kid: That's more so because no one has organized it. The G.O. series is changing that.

Edit 2: As to the other assertions made by people before this post, the timer is the big indicator. If the distance is about the same as a regular cape but MK attacks with it, its kind of obvious, isn't it?

 

[Fatmanonice]

You know... regarding EDC, it's twistedly ironic but I remember how so people argued that using IDC in short spurts would never happen because members of the Brawl community would have more integrity then to justify even trying to use it competitively... Uh... what happened guys?

 

[AvaricePanda]

Also, it's pretty darn simple to realize if a downB is extended. If you flick up once on the C-stick, it's banned. Period. And I don't understand why you're flaunting about the EDC being an OPd tech, because

1) It has punishable start-up lag.
2) It has punishable ending lag.

Air-camping to EDC to air-camping? How about that part where you punish him during landing, or when he initiates the DC? It is not unpunishable by any means. Really, all EDC does is help MK get back on the stage in some match-ups/situations (I say that because he can still be ppunished by some characters).

Given that any extention of the dimensional cape is banned, I don't know why people are worrying about it.

 

[hippiedude92]

lol l dont see whats the point of srsly hyping mk i mean... **** if hes banned... then oh well... I'LL JUST BEAT ALL THOSE META-KNIGHTS IN MONEY MATCHS WITH MY MARIO BROTHERS LMFAOOOOOOOO more money for me then ahahahahahahha

10shoryukens

 

[TLMSheikant]

Its not impossible to track if the TO is looking for it, like they should be in a finals match. I've already stated how to deal with in in regular matches, and though there is no way to prevent it outright if there is no TO watching, if a TO is alerted to a player using it they can be tracked for the rest of the tourney. Also, its already been in play in Oregon and we haven't had an issue with it. Its punishable on start-up and ending.

But what about the other tourney matches that arent grand finals? And IF the TO is looking for it its not impossible to see but it is still very very hard to tell if it was used or not since the distance varies.

 

[MarKO X]

But the extension of the DC is not banned. Only the IDC is banned.
you're still really pushing it when you talk of this monitoring the DC for being too extended (which, is not banned cause techincally, it's not inifnite)

hippie, you're avatar is awesome. :D

 

[thrillagorilla]

But what about the other tourney matches that arent grand finals? And IF the TO is looking for it its not impossible to see but it is still very very hard to tell if it was used or not since the distance varies.

Again, its the timer and the attack on the end of it that are the big indicators. If it happens during a regular match, call over a TO. Also what Avaricepanda said.

Edit: As to what MarKO said, its not banned here in Oregon and we haven't had an issue with it, mostly due to it being punishable unless used to stall which is in turn banned.

 

[phi1ny3]

Are you ****ing kidding me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAFNW3B3puA&feature=related

Sadly no, I am not kidding.

 

[Abbra Cadav3r]

good story guys

 

[gantrain05]

if you are a MK main you must remove your C-stick b4 every tourney lol.

 

[Sosuke]

Also, it's pretty darn simple to realize if a downB is extended. If you flick up once on the C-stick, it's banned. Period. And I don't understand why you're flaunting about the EDC being an OPd tech, because

1) It has punishable start-up lag.
2) It has punishable ending lag.
Given that any extention of the dimensional cape is banned, I don't know why people are worrying about it.

Have you ever been to a tournament? There aren't people constantly watching the players hands at all times. Even if you think there the MK did it, what PROOF do you have?
You COULD record the replay, but too bad most matches aren't under 3 minutes. Too bad most Wiis at tournaments don't have infinite replays.

"1) It has punishable start-up lag.
2) It has punishable ending lag."

No, it doesn't have punishable start up lag from almost all positions if the MK has any idea of how to use this move.
Don't most moves have punishable ending lag? So? Isn't one of the luxurys of using this tech to avoid being hit afterwords if preformed correctly?
Are you really saying this tech is fine? Really?

 

[Abbra Cadav3r]

no MK's wanna lab?

 

[Remzi]

Also, it's pretty darn simple to realize if a downB is extended. If you flick up once on the C-stick, it's banned. Period. And I don't understand why you're flaunting about the EDC being an OPd tech, because

Yea, it's a good thing a large notification appears on the screen saying "Metaknight has just pushed the C-Stick up!"

1) It has punishable start-up lag.
2) It has punishable ending lag.

Except it moves far and fast, and you don't know which direction.

Air-camping to EDC to air-camping? How about that part where you punish him during landing, or when he initiates the DC? It is not unpunishable by any means. Really, all EDC does is help MK get back on the stage in some match-ups/situations (I say that because he can still be ppunished by some characters).

As long as MK has ANY sort of breathing room, he can EDC and escape a bad situation. It's also good for getting him back onto the stage, but thats the least of my worries.

Given that any extention of the dimensional cape is banned, I don't know why people are worrying about it.

The problem is that it's very difficult to identify.

 

[MarKO X]

LOL

Well, it don't take a whole day for me to recognize sunshine.
I'm a go into lurk mode, eat dinner and see what you can possibly say about this EDC.
Cause as it stands.... I dunno, my mind is blown.

Edit: also, realize that Mk doesn't even have to move. You can get mindgamed by this move pretty awesomely.
You say TOs can watch. That means that TOs have to keep their eye on the MK (or MKs) at all times. And properly determine what's EDC and what's not.

Like I said, good luck with that controversy.

 

[Clai]

How the **** is that not broken?

Being able to escape ANY disadvantageous situation at will?

Personally, I want to know if the EDC gets so hyped for being the "100% foolproof I can escape anything at will ever," technique, then why aren't more people just using the regular Dimensional Cape to produce that instant escape option?

Really, if we're just talking about:

l---l not banned
l--------l banned

Why aren't more Metaknights just using the regular DC? Is the extra distance THAT gamebreaking?

 

[thrillagorilla]

Have you ever been to a tournament? There aren't people constantly watching the players hands at all times. Even if you think there the MK did it, what PROOF do you have?
You COULD record the replay, but too bad most matches aren't under 3 minutes. Too bad most Wiis at tournaments don't have infinite replays.

"1) It has punishable start-up lag.
2) It has punishable ending lag."

No, it doesn't have punishable start up lag from almost all positions if the MK has any idea of how to use this move.
Don't most moves have punishable ending lag? So? Isn't one of the luxurys of using this tech to avoid being hit afterwords if preformed correctly?
Are you really saying this tech is fine? Really?

T1mmy has done this to me on several occasions. Avarice really is right. As to monitoring, again if it is used in a regular match, call a TO over to officiate the rest of the match (assuming that the extension is banned). In finals and grand finals, the matches are officiated anyways. Why are you all trying so hard to say that nothing can be done about it? How many people here have experienced it used against them?

 

[Remzi]

Personally, I want to know if the EDC gets so hyped for being the "100% foolproof I can escape anything at will ever," technique, then why aren't more people just using the regular Dimensional Cape to produce that instant escape option?

Really, if we're just talking about:

l---l not banned
l--------l banned

Why aren't more Metaknights just using the regular DC? Is the extra distance THAT gamebreaking?

The distance is just enough to get you out unharmed if you tap once. If you use regular DC, you're keeping yourself close to your opponent and leaving yourself susceptible to punishment. Of course distance is a big deal.

 

[Sosuke]

T1mmy has done this to me on several occasions. Avarice really is right. As to monitoring, again if it is used in a regular match, call a TO over to officiate the rest of the match (assuming that the extension is banned). In finals and grand finals, the matches are officiated anyways. Why are you all trying so hard to say that nothing can be done about it? How many people here have experienced it used against them?

So you're saying that you actually have to get to the point where they do it to you first so to be able to call them out on it when they do it later? Come on. And what if the TOs busy?
And not all matches are finals. Most aren't. =/

 

[MarKO X]

HEY!
YOU DON'T HAVE TO MOVE WHEN YOU ARE INVISIBLE!

that is all.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Without replay, thats **** near impossible to track.

Also, most matches are longer than 3 minutes, and most Wii's aren't hacked.

Most wii's are hacked actually. The majority of the wii's being used at tournaments, least at the last event, were hacked and had replay hacks.
Plus its extra distance, he isn't lengthening the time, it takes advantage f how when you hit the ground duing the cape, y are in it for a longer period of time naturally.

 

[Clai]

The distance is just enough to get you out unharmed if you tap once. If you use regular DC, you're keeping yourself close to your opponent and leaving yourself susceptible to punishment. Of course distance is a big deal.

Honestly, I think Metaknight has so many options already that this isn't going to be a big deal. Metaknight already has a thousand and a half ways to escape situations, so what's one more that's going to simply reset his options at best?

The EDC doesn't magically solve things like the fact that Metaknight reaches the blast zones really easily.

 

[thrillagorilla]

So you're saying that you actually have to get to the point where they do it to you first so to be able to call them out on it when they do it later? Come on.
And not all matches are finals. Most aren't. =/

If there is no other way to monitor it, then yes. Again, when has this been an issue and who has had it done to them enough to know what does and doesn't work to counter it? Unless there is some evidence to show that it can't be stopped then all people here are doing is theory-crafting.

Edit: Thank you for pointing out what I was trying to say, Shadowlink.

 

[Sosuke]

If there is no other way to monitor it, then yes. Again, when has this been an issue and who has had it done to them enough to know what does and doesn't work to counter it? Unless there is some evidence to show that it can't be stopped then all people here are doing it theory-crafting.

Just because it hasn't been done much doesn't mean it's not a problem/ going to be a problem. :/

Yes, all people are theory-crafting. That includes you guys. =)

 

[MarKO X]

you have an escape move...

that is invincible...

Spoiler

and invisible.

and you don't have to move.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Just because it hasn't been done much doesn't mean it's not a problem/ going to be a problem. :/

Yes, all people are theory-crafting. That includes you guys. =)

No, I have experience against it in matches. I know how it works. It can be annoying to deal with but certainly not impossible.

you have an escape move...

that is invincible...

Spoiler

and invisible.

and you don't have to move.

It isn't invincible before the move starts or after. The opponent can keep track of where Metaknight is the exact same way the the Metaknight player does.

 

[Sosuke]

No, I have experience against it in matches. I know how it works. It can be annoying to deal with but certainly not impossible.

Explain thoroughly. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just need a full explanation to why it's ok (unless you posted it somewhere and I missed it).

btw, the IDC was banned without it being used much, sooooo.... :/

 

[AvaricePanda]

But the extension of the DC is not banned. Only the IDC is banned.
you're still really pushing it when you talk of this monitoring the DC for being too extended (which, is not banned cause techincally, it's not inifnite)

hippie, you're avatar is awesome. :D

No.

Any extension of the dimensional cape is banned. It essentially is infinite dimensional cape.

By that logic, extending Dimensional Cape for 2 minutes, getting out of it for 2 seconds, and going back for 2 minutes is considered legal. It most certainly isn't.

Bad wording with the word infinite, but any extension of it is banned. It doesn't suddenly become illegal when the time runs out.

Also, the player doesn't have to move? Okay, so they stand still in dimensional cape for seconds. It's pretty obvious to see that they're using a banned tech.

The extra one or two taps of C-stick up shouldn't suddenly make the move unpunishable. I can see it as being a retreat when they already have breathing room, but they could always just run backwards and have any frame to react, rather than commit to a punishable move. Again, the only reasonable use for it I see is what M2K did against Dojo; to recover back on the stage. But still, it's banned when you extend the cape, and it was pretty obvious he extended it too.

 

[Darth Waffles]

Did the SBR wait until people used IDC in tourney matches for a few months before banning it? Of course not. The few examples + "we-all-know-what-happens-next" were enough.

EDIT: It's not necessarily the "extra bit", it's the uncertainty which leads to the unpunishability. Regular DC is almost as bad as EDC which is almost as bad as IDC. The difference is that regular dimensional cape doesn't take you far enough to evade punishment. You know "about" where mk will go, and you can punish accordingly. Being invincible and invisibile for an extended time nullifies any ending lag, and startup lag is only a few frames- No character in the game can pressure MK and force him not to use DC of any kind. And if you're going to argue that another MK might be able to... well that's just one more reason that pro-ban arguments can use to get rid of him

 

[Alus]

Im sorry...why is this important ?

EDIT:

Oh ok 0_o

 

[Atlus8]

Hyper Viper Beam!

 

[thrillagorilla]

Explain thoroughly. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just need a full explanation to why it's ok (unless you posted it somewhere and I missed it).

btw, the IDC was banned without it being used much, sooooo.... :/

I need to look at the frame data for a good explanation, and I need to leave soon. I'll get back to it later tonight and leave you a link to the post in your shout-outs. Suffice it to say, the move can be attacked before Metaknight disappears, and the screen moves with Metaknight so you can see approximately where he is at and punish when he re-appears. If he stays in it for more than the time necessary to reach a safe location, its pretty easy to tell the player is stalling and you can pause it and call over a TO. I've never had to do it though.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Why aren't more Metaknights just using the regular DC? Is the extra distance THAT gamebreaking?

Regular DC has a set time and max distance.

EDC does not have a set time or max distance. The only way the opponent can punish you out of it is if you are being predictable.

If MK is in the middle of the stage (lets say FD) and uses EDC, he can appear anywhere on the stage, and can appear at anytime provided it's soon enough not to be called stalling. You CANNOT punish that unless the MK appeared at the same spot, at the same time, every time EDC was used. There are way too many variables to actually punish it outside of random luck.

And calling over a TO doesn't solve the problem. What if during the 3rd match of the set to see who goes onto the top 8 the MK pulls out an EDC during the last 30 seconds or so to avoid being KO'd/taking damage, while he has a % lead over you? Calling over the TO won't do anything, and the MK still gets away with it and likely wins through it. It's simply one of many examples that can occur. The only way to avoid this is to ban DC. And if you are going to ban a move of a character, the character itself needs to be banned.

Rather simple really.

 

[Eddie G]

Lol, I really can't believe that people are actually trying to make the EDC seem legit. It's just like MK's ability to work around the ledge grab limit while still enjoying the benefits of planking. It's just another way to **** with the rules without actually breaking them in an immediately obvious manner.

It's ridiculous how a character even has the ability to work around the rules like that while still reaping the benefits of the same tactic that forced the rules to be instilled.

 

[Clai]

No.

Any extension of the dimensional cape is banned. It essentially is infinite dimensional cape.

By that logic, extending Dimensional Cape for 2 minutes, getting out of it for 2 seconds, and going back for 2 minutes is considered legal. It most certainly isn't.

Bad wording with the word infinite, but any extension of it is banned. It doesn't suddenly become illegal when the time runs out.

Also, the player doesn't have to move? Okay, so they stand still in dimensional cape for seconds. It's pretty obvious to see that they're using a banned tech.

The extra one or two taps of C-stick up shouldn't suddenly make the move unpunishable. I can see it as being a retreat when they already have breathing room, but they could always just run backwards and have any frame to react, rather than commit to a punishable move. Again, the only reasonable use for it I see is what M2K did against Dojo; to recover back on the stage. But still, it's banned when you extend the cape, and it was pretty obvious he extended it too.

The Infinite Dimensional Cape has no purpose but to stall out matches for as long as the player can tap the c-stick for. It provides no benefit to the player outside of blatant stalling. It violates a rule that has already existed when it comes to brawl's competitive rules and was thus immediately banned.

The Extended Dimensional Cape has a purpose of running away and resetting the position advantage to neutral- something, with his quick aerials and priority-laden specials, that Metaknight is already good at. This isn't suddenly turning Metaknight into an unstoppable beast- it's strengthening something that Metaknight players are already excelled in. It's like if Snake's down-tilt started killing at the same percentages his up-tilt and forward-tilt have already donw- it's just adding to something Metaknight is already capable of doing without rendering any of the cast unviable (well, more than he already is, for those unlucky few characters).