Floaties need a counter-pick stage.

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

FD only

Random binary:

10101010101010101010101010101010

 

[Deleted member]

Better solution: ban Stadium.

You're welcome.

yeah i love having to blind-ban PS every other set because 60% of players use fox and falco. being forced to waste your ban in a non-strategic manner isn't a strict tactical disadvantage at all.

 

[Wake]

There's a reason why when you look back at M2K's tournament sets with Armada the only games that he took off of him besides their first game at Genesis 1 was on PS with Fox. Leffen also seems to take games from Armada on PS more, at least from the sets of them that I've seen. It's a dumb stage lol.

 

[Bones0]

Maybe Armada should get better at PS? I didn't hear PP complaining about having to play M2K's Marth on FD. He just manned up and got **** done. If people stop acting like certain stages are auto-lose, they tend to do better than they think. The same **** has happened with "bad" matchups until people got better and were like "oh, we were just bad. Who would've guessed?"

 

[Wake]

Of course it isn't auto lose, but that isn't the point of this thread. Maybe people should get better at Brinstar? The question of the thread was concerning floaties getting a non neutral CP.

 

[ShroudedOne]

The transformations alone really, really hurt non spacies (Peach/Puff in particular). And 10-15% is the difference between not dying to an upsmash, and dying. That is...quite a difference.

Spacies don't exactly have problems combating them when they get close, either.

 

[Bones0]

Of course it isn't auto lose, but that isn't the point of this thread. Maybe people should get better at Brinstar? The question of the thread was concerning floaties getting a non neutral CP.

Nobody banned Brinstar because it's bad for their character. They banned it because lava that does huge damage randomly engulfs 90% of the stage. Your logic of wanting a CP doesn't even make sense. What if we switched PS and FD like that one recent European tournament? Then spacies could complain about not having a cp in their favor EVEN THOUGH IT'S THE SAME STAGE LIST.

The 6 stages we have now are based on the stages themselves, not on what characters are good on which stages. If you think your character sucks on the 6 stages deemed legal, then either change characters or stop johning.

 

[Kimimaru]

Is the barrel the only thing stopping Kongo Jungle 64 from being a relatively balanced stage?

 

[Cummings]

Nobody banned Brinstar because it's bad for their character. They banned it because lava that does huge damage randomly engulfs 90% of the stage. Your logic of wanting a CP doesn't even make sense. What if we switched PS and FD like that one recent European tournament? Then spacies could complain about not having a cp in their favor EVEN THOUGH IT'S THE SAME STAGE LIST.

The 6 stages we have now are based on the stages themselves, not on what characters are good on which stages. If you think your character sucks on the 6 stages deemed legal, then either change characters or stop johning.

pretty sound logic if you ask me.
you cant change the stage list because 60% of players are fox or falco.

Also is the lava on brinstar actually random? I always thought there was a pattern, but i was just never bothered to learn it.

 

[Life]

Brinstar's lava is a set pattern with a little bit of timing variance. (Unless they changed it in Brawl.)

Also, LOL at "don't balance the game" in a game where most stages were removed by the community for supposedly breaking balance (granted, a lot of them DO wreck the game but that's not what I mean).

KishPrime was right.

 

[EPsilon933]

The game is now pretty much as balanced as we can get it

 

[Bones0]

Is the barrel the only thing stopping Kongo Jungle 64 from being a relatively balanced stage?

It's too easy to circle camp slow characters. I think it should be neutral for teams.

pretty sound logic if you ask me.
you cant change the stage list because 60% of players are fox or falco.

Also is the lava on brinstar actually random? I always thought there was a pattern, but i was just never bothered to learn it.

Is this even a reply to my post? I didn't mention the number of spacie mains at all as a reason to change or not change the stage list.

Brinstar's lava is a set pattern with a little bit of timing variance. (Unless they changed it in Brawl.)

Also, LOL at "don't balance the game" in a game where most stages were removed by the community for supposedly breaking balance (granted, a lot of them DO wreck the game but that's not what I mean).

KishPrime was right.

Most stages were removed because they break the balance of the game, not the balance of the characters. Fox being the only viable option on Onett is completely different from Fox having a slight advantage on PS. One threatens the integrity of the entire game while the other is just a natural outcome from having characters with varying traits playing on different stages.

 

[leffen]

Armada is simply bad on PS, but its still a good fox stage.

 

[Kal]

Brinstar's lava is a set pattern with a little bit of timing variance. (Unless they changed it in Brawl.)

Also, LOL at "don't balance the game" in a game where most stages were removed by the community for supposedly breaking balance (granted, a lot of them DO wreck the game but that's not what I mean).

KishPrime was right.

One of my favorite examples is when people cite that a high-tier character does exceptionally poorly on a stage like Brinstar. "Ice Climbers, a normally high-tier character, gets absolutely destroyed on Brinstar!" And then people turn around and claim we don't ban stages in the interest of balance.

 

[Strong Badam]

There's a reason why when you look back at M2K's tournament sets with Armada the only games that he took off of him besides their first game at Genesis 1 was on PS with Fox. Leffen also seems to take games from Armada on PS more, at least from the sets of them that I've seen. It's a dumb stage lol.

This post gives me absolutely no insight as to why the stage is bad for floaties.

Kal, it depends on who you ask. Bad players/posters e.g. the topic creator will make statements like that (when they're actually false; Wobbles has stated multiple times that Brinstar is a great ICs stage. The Acid saves Nana for him!). Good players/posters will give you the standard things that you've deemed "arbitrary" 8000 times.

 

[Kal]

I'm not referring to anyone in particular. Just that I've seen this contradiction before.

 

[ShroudedOne]

It's not about "the stage is bad for floaties." It's about "the stage is really stupid and really competitively bad." At least, for me.

 

[Strong Badam]

So this is what I've gleamed from this thread in favor of banning PS

"It's stupid"
"competitively, it's almost just as bad as other banned stages"

I'm still not convinced.

 

[rawrimamonster]

So this is what I've gleamed from this thread in favor of banning PS

"It's stupid"
"competitively, it's almost just as bad as other banned stages"

I'm still not convinced.

It's been a long time since I've had a good opponent so floaty mains dont get butthurt if I'm wrong. As far as I can gather from this issue its mostly about "discomfort" for the lack of a better blanket term. Spacies can basically cut off vital points of attack, recovery, cover options much better and give them less options to turn the momentum of the fight then they might have had on a more favorable stage. Also, those with a disadvantage in skill, pressuring, reading, stage control, and spacing when against better players will be at a bigger (or possibly landslide) disadvantage to bigger players had they not been on PS.

Now with space animals this is a pretty average day for them as they're just better characters and can cover options much better and with more efficiency. Floaty mains however do not want a even steeper uphill battle by losing options and ability to turn around a match/set that they otherwise might have won or had been leading had they had the option of it already being banned.

/tired typing of 26 hours of no sleep,

****ing MMO events. <_>

 

[Armada]

Armada is simply bad on PS, but its still a good fox stage.

I honestly don't think Im bad at PS. I think it is way more that Peach against Fox is stupid. The MU in generall is not good for Peach and PS makes it even harder and I think that is a bigger reason to why I have really bad winning ratio on that stage.

My Falco have pretty good winning ratio on that stage in tournament for example

 

[leffen]

I think your peach play on that stage is not BAD, but definitely a bit below your YS/BF/DL/FD level of play. Seriously, just look at how much more you lose on that stage... its not JUST the character lol.

Peach is also one of the floaties that suffers the most from PS (the platforms are too far away from eachother for uair combos for example, and all the transformations are kinda bad for her) while other floaties like Samus, Marth, Ics, Zelda, Mewtwo do just fine on it.

 

[Mahone]

Idk where this mentality that BF is the one true stage came from... It often feels shallow and extremely biased against spacies because of the lack of recovery options. FoD has always felt like the one true stage to me. The side blastzones are small, while the ceiling is huge, and the platforms vary through multiple heights including only a top platform (which is like FD, but not as extreme because it's smaller and at least has one plat you can DI onto). It forces players to play effectively on multiple stage layouts in a single match, which is something no other stages will never be able to do. I think that actually makes matchups harder to determine because it's just so well-rounded. The only reason it gets any flak at all is because people don't want to take the time to learn how to play on it. I constantly hear Falcon, Fox, Falco mains ***** about how they have to autoban it because they have to [get ready] time their SHFFLs differently when the low platforms are out. OMG?! Boohoo. Low plats aren't even bad for those characters most of the time. Idk, it just frustrates me that all the players who dismiss the stage as being too random are always the ones who can't L-cancel aerials onto the low plats. Like, you realize that they're only low for about 1/5th of the match, right people?

ya, its funny u say all that because i actually agree like 80%. Fod is my favorite neutral and i think if they made a stage that was fod but the plats didnt go ******** low but moved the same (maybe starting higher or something), then that would be the BEST ONE TRUE STAGE

but i just cant say fod because sometimes its "Random" in the sense that you get fthrown by marth or some **** at low percent and normally ud be fine but now he can like fmash you cuz u had to tech on a low plat and he gets like 3/4 spots tipper...

that example could be completely wrong in like 5 ways but its **** like that which is too annoying...

i know i get some bs tech chase rests on fod cuz of low plats and im never happy about it

I agree that no wall on bf is a bummer

to be honest my IDEAL ruleset would be either BF, YS, DL or what we had before with like 6 neutrals and RC, Corneria, Mute, Brinstar, KJ64

the first one is because like someone said one stage gets boring and also YS lets you do awesome wall jump ****, while dreamland lets you play some fun peach vs jiggs 7 min matches (im not being sarcastic, those can be really intense)

and the other ruleset is pretty fun, but i think it basically relies on the first game too much, which everyoen has heard before so i dont need to go into detail, but its really just BF only, then u play 2 stages for fun if u think about it lol

I'm kind of interested in why exactly PS is so bad for floaties, outside of the obvious transformations. No top platform for FFers to camp on, existing platforms are low enough to where Peach/Puff can actually techchase on them/use them for movement, no wall for spacies to ride up while recovering.... Is the relatively low ceiling that big of a deal...?

just watch m2k vs armada on that stage

fox gets room to camp but still gets quick kills, thats why its so bad, its not a big deal with falco tbh, yoshis is scarier with him cuz of random shines off the top, but at least its balanced by a smaller stage where he cant laser as much and can get edgeguarded more often

 

[Bones0]

you get fthrown by marth or some **** at low percent and normally ud be fine but now he can like fmash you cuz u had to tech on a low plat and he gets like 3/4 spots tipper...

that example could be completely wrong in like 5 ways but its **** like that which is too annoying...

Learn to slide off edges, noob.

But yeah, obviously that stuff does happen sometimes, but I think BF's ledges completely restricting options for the entire game is worse than the occasional low plat giving someone an advantage. Recovering is already hard enough in this metagame, so only playing on a stage with no wall-riding/harder ledge teching seems just as annoying as low plats. But this is why I would never want a 1-stage list. Not everyone feels the same about everything. There's nothing wrong with any of the neutrals, and I am in favor of getting rid of PS, but I don't think it should be because floaties are ing. Especially because it isn't even floaties in general. It's just Peach players, and I guess you for Jiggs, but from what I can tell you just hate the actual stage, not the fact that it's good for spacies vs. your main.

 

[Strong Badam]

just watch m2k vs armada on that stage

fox gets room to camp but still gets quick kills, thats why its so bad

How is this any different from Dreamland? He just runs away for a little longer before fishing for the upsmash... and gains a top platform to camp.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Sigh. Never mind.

 

[Mahone]

How is this any different from Dreamland? He just runs away for a little longer before fishing for the upsmash... and gains a top platform to camp.

LOL

oh god....

just fishes for the upsmash...

i dont see how that could go wrong

if this is really how you feel and ur not joking, then i dont really know what i can tell you to change ur mind... just play peach/puff on both and lemme know how it goes

 

[Strong Badam]

An exaggeration, Mahone.

Spoiler

still hasn't been convinced why PS is so bad for floaties, because apparently all floaty mains are bad at explaining competitive aspects about their character

 

[Bones0]

I don't agree Fox simply has to fish for an usmash, but that's the general vibe I'm getting from Peach mains. They act like the whole game is them chasing after Fox who randomly usmashes them as soon as they're above 60%.

 

[EPsilon933]

No johns. Stop being bad with your character. Get better, Peach/Puff mains!

Or you could convert to Fox. If you can't beat them, join them

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah. If you go back and read through all of the pasts posts, that's all we've said. You'll find those exact words. Really. You will. I'm glad we can all read.

The stage offers her absolutely nothing. What are Peach's strengths? Being able to live really long, being able to combo (spacies, anyways) really, really hard, being able to effectively corner her opponents with her massive aerials and long float that facilitates a very good pressure game.

Stadium's neutral transformation is pretty big, so she runs into the same issue she does on Dreamland, and on FD, which is her having to chase down Fox because she's SLOW and he isn't (unless we've all forgotten this). The thing that makes Dreamland wonderful for her is the room that lets her live extremely long. And on FD, she has brutal chain grabs/combos which more than make up for whatever space Fox can gain on her. On Stadium, the ceiling is extremely low. Fox just so happens to have extremely strong vertical kills moves. And the low side platforms don't give him a top platform to camp with, but they interrupt her chain grabs as well as her combos (sliding off of them is a thing).

The transformations are all really bad for her, while simultaneously being very good for Fox.

Forest transformation: This is probably the least problematic of the transformations, as it just keeps the general horizontal size of the stage, while giving Fox a top platform for relaxation. The orientation of the platforms can give her some uair follows, I guess. The lower log platform in the center of the stage also interferes with her float, stopping her from controlling the middle as effectively as she would be able to otherwise, if she does gain stage.

Water transformation: Fox has a fast jump. She doesn't. Chilling on the windmill is sort of a thing (though she has a few answers for it, the least of which being a turnip). The platforms to the right of the stage (specifically the one that is higher up) gives Fox camping room. She has trouble dealing with camping.

Fire transformation: The tree gives her good techs for surviving. Fox also gets these. So this transformation is essentially who can compete for that advantageous side of the stage first. Fox also has the added benefit of getting a cool little drill > shine iteration against the tree. So she can either sit there or get drilled (please, don't), or SDI out and risk losing her position against the tree (any good Fox should know how to time their dairs, but whatever). The other situation that occurs is just people being on either side of the tree, which isn't that big of a deal, as long as no one approaches until the stage returns to normal. But Fox is more able to challenge Peach if they're separated (he has a faster jump than her, making any attempt she makes at challenging him extremely telegraphed). So even if he nevers goes over there, she has to just wait for him to decide what he's going to do, which is an inherent disadvantage.

Rock transformation: Like the fire transformation, this often devolves into people just camping either side. But again, even if Peach finds herself in the pit (which is center stage), it's a dangerous position for her, due to how good Fox is in the pit (drill). She does get control from this position, however, if he tries to jump from the left side, because that's easy to see coming. From the right side, it's a little worse. She usually has to concede that area (meaning she gives up center stage when the stage changes again). The weird elevations give her some downsmash cheese, though. But she has poor movement on this transformation (in part because her float is how she threatens, because it gives her access to her big aerials, and she can't really get it out as effectively here, or on any of the other transformations).

Also remember that part of a stage being bad is represented in how much of an advantage your opponent gains over you. And if there's anyone who thinks that Fox doesn't gain a BIG advantage from Pokemon Stadium, then you should just stop playing this game. Sorry.

Why in the world would Peach/Puff players have been banning this stage since forever if it wasn't at least somewhat bad for us?

Also, saying "no johns" is fine and all (I'm not saying the matchup is anywhere close to impossible, jesus christ, but suddenly saying "HEY. We don't do well vs Fox on Stadium" is a bad thing? Wtf?) I'm JUST saying that it's not in our favor by ANY stretch of the imagination.

It's not johning if I'm stating a fact that floaties don't gain as much from Stadium as spacies do.

EDIT: Never mind.

 

[EPsilon933]

I'm just saying that Peach/Puff being bad on Pokemon Stadium vs Fox shouldn't be considered. Let's not balance characters. Gameplay is the only thing that matters. Discuss that. Does Fox on Pokemon Stadium, or Pokemon Stadium itself, degrade gameplay? If so, then we have reasons to ban it

 

[ShroudedOne]

I think that the transformations degrade gameplay (rock and fire and maybe water). Standing there for maybe 10-15 seconds doesn't add anything to the metagame, it doesn't facilitate any chance for matchup growth, it just makes it really dull and taxing (in a non-mental sort of way) for both the players and those watching. And it "reflects sort of badly on Melee as a whole" when people who are new to the game watch two people standing there practicing tech skill or whatever because the stage literally prohibits any action.

I do realize this is more opinionated, on my part, however.

And yes, Epsilon. I know you don't read things. I have a bad habit of typing too much, anyways. I don't expect it to really get read.

 

[EPsilon933]

I'm neutral on the banning vs not banning of PS. I just want other stages that don't have a flat main floor banned. I think that's the biggest thing that makes a stage neutral vs banned/counterpick for rules that still legalize stages like Brinstar, Corneria, Kongo

Not having 2 parts to stage lists make the rules look cool

 

[SUNG666]

As a falco main I wouldnt mind if ps was banned. I ban it everytime unless I'm playing someone who can cg me.

 

[Wake]

LOL

oh god....

just fishes for the upsmash...

i dont see how that could go wrong

if this is really how you feel and ur not joking, then i dont really know what i can tell you to change ur mind... just play peach/puff on both and lemme know how it goes

Yeah my thoughts exactly.

Thank you Jaiye for that post. I read it, if it makes you feel any better. Peach and Puff probably suffer the most from PS. Other floaties might do fine on it as Leffen said.

Why should PS be the only non-neutral CP exactly? Honest question. I'm having a hard time thinking of another CP stage I suppose.

 

[Kal]

I guess people forget that it's only distinguished as "non-neutral" in the current ruleset because we need an odd number of stages for the strike system. If we had a good method of choosing from all six stages for the first match, the ruleset would probably read:

Starters/Neutrals:

• Yoshi’s Story
• Fountain of Dreams
• Battlefield
• Final Destination
• Dream Land
• Pokémon Stadium

I think it's silly that people keep making this distinction between neutral and counterpick. The distinction exists, historically, because of the way we used to select stages for the first match: we would choose one at random and thus, in order to minimize swings due to some stages being exceptionally bad for some characters, would differentiate between "neutral" and "non-neutral" stages. This distinction of "neutral" is a remnant of that system, and in the current system the distinction makes no sense. It makes far more sense to refer to them as "starter stages," in which case people need to stop making the asinine argument that there unfairly exists only one stage that isn't in that category. The one stage classified as a counterpick in this ruleset is only classified as such because we need an odd number of starter stages.

In other words, if you can make a well-reasoned argument for why it should be banned, that's great. The fact that it's distinguished from the other five stages by an arbitrarily (and poorly) chosen name is not a well-reasoned argument.

And, unless the balance issue is overwhelming (e.g. Fox on Hyrule), the fact that Fox does well against Peach and Jigglypuff on Stadium isn't a concern. You'd have better luck complaining about how "janky" it is, as that seems to be the way to go about getting **** banned.

 

[bertbusdriver]

Pichu sucks on battlefield let's ban that ****.

 

[Mahone]

An exaggeration, Mahone.

Spoiler

still hasn't been convinced why PS is so bad for floaties, because apparently all floaty mains are bad at explaining competitive aspects about their character

Its not that we're bad at explaining its that we are all JAIYEDED, amirite shroudedone...

but seriously, this is kinda off topic since we shouldnt ban for char balance, it just sorta seeped in cuz i hate ps soooo much

I guess people forget that it's only distinguished as "non-neutral" in the current ruleset because we need an odd number of stages for the strike system. If we had a good method of choosing from all six stages for the first match, the ruleset would probably read:



I think it's silly that people keep making this distinction between neutral and counterpick. The distinction exists, historically, because of the way we used to select stages for the first match: we would choose one at random and thus, in order to minimize swings due to some stages being exceptionally bad for some characters, would differentiate between "neutral" and "non-neutral" stages. This distinction of "neutral" is a remnant of that system, and in the current system the distinction makes no sense. It makes far more sense to refer to them as "starter stages," in which case people need to stop making the asinine argument that there unfairly exists only one stage that isn't in that category. The one stage classified as a counterpick in this ruleset is only classified as such because we need an odd number of starter stages.

In other words, if you can make a well-reasoned argument for why it should be banned, that's great. The fact that it's distinguished from the other five stages by an arbitrarily (and poorly) chosen name is not a well-reasoned argument.

And, unless the balance issue is overwhelming (e.g. Fox on Hyrule), the fact that Fox does well against Peach and Jigglypuff on Stadium isn't a concern. You'd have better luck complaining about how "janky" it is, as that seems to be the way to go about getting **** banned.

Why do we have ONE cp, doesnt that seem super odd, like at that point why not just have no cps

But ofc the counterargument i always hear is its neutral but u need an odd number for stage striking

Bull****. I cant believe that anyone really believes ps is as neutral as the main 5 (maybe fd is bad too with cg, im not gettin into that...)

But honestly i thought both rc and corneria were more fair than ps as cps... How has it lasted so long??????

Just cuz the nontransformed part is good doesnt justify its huge flaws... Ive listed them all like 100 times on this site so i wont do it again but i will say...

U can get infinited and u can ****ing fall through the goddamn stage! Is that not enough???

oh man, like clockwork

also, kal, do u really think they just put all 6 stages on a dartboard and were like, "aiight, whatever it lands on is the cp and the rest are the neutrals cuz they are all just starters and equally fair."

maybe... cuz the mbr is ******** and probably enjoys darts, but i highly doubt it, im pretty sure it was chosen to not be in the striking 5 because even the mbr considers it more imbalanced than the rest of the stages

 

[Kal]

It's clear that if you have to strike from five of these six stages, the one to leave out would be Pokémon Stadium. This doesn't mean Pokémon Stadium is broken, or that it's inherently a "counterpick stage" while the other five aren't. As I made very clear, that Pokémon Stadium is a counterpick stage is a numerical fluke; if we had a sixth stage that was "neutral," we'd probably be striking from a list of seven starters.

I mean, damn, do you even consider arguing reasonably, or is "strawman argument" your default response to everything?

 

[knightpraetor]

Yeah, I've never thought it was that bad for non-spacies either... I can see how Peach/Jiggs sort of struggle because of all the room spacies have to camp, but as I've said a million times, you can't win Melee games by camping. If you're a slow char, you'll take 10-15% MAX trying to get across the stage, at which point they have to pass you, like Strong Bad said, with no top plat and extremely low side plats. I also think the ceiling being low matters a lot less since the side plats are so low and there is no top plat. A lot of absurdly low kills Fox gets on floaties only happen because he was on plats to add to the height. Idk how accurate it would be to say for sure, but I feel like an usmash on one of BF's side plats will kill sooner than an usmash from the bottom of PS...

Besides that, I think there are a lot of matchups vs. spacies that are actually good on PS. I think it's a great stage for Marth (Taj cped it vs. Mango at Genesis and everyone was like "OMG what an idiot!", then he won). Falcon and ICs also seem enjoy the space and lack of top plat respectively. I know that I personally, as a Falco main, rely pretty heavily on that top plat to get early kills, continue combos, and recover without dying every time.


Just tested Fox usmashing Falcon. On the side BF plats, Falcon dies at 97%. On the bottom of PS, Falcon dies at 99%. I love having an intuitive sense of kill %s from playing this game for 10 years.

DON"T even get me started on that STUPID FREAKING STAGE!!!

FoD is a thousand times more random and imbalanced than PS ever was. It's fine for falcos who have crap edgeguarding already to not worry about the platforms randomly rising from underneath them. But marth often doesn't have time to reach offstage or sometimes it's just a bad option vs falco, and then if you try to edgeguard from onstage and the platform happens to be down, you have no idea whether the platform will just rise while you're about to edgeguard.

In the event that it rises while you are on it, you have no choice but to just miss your edgeguard allowing falco back on stage for free. and if by awful chance the platform should rise during the startup animation of your dtilt/fsmash/etc. Say goodbye to your stock cause a competent fox falco is going to hit you during your lag and proceed to combo your 50% and send you offstage.

FoD may be "balanced" but it is by far the most random stage in the current list. At least the cloud on yoshi's I can try to keep track of. At least on dreamland when the wind pushes me out of position i can attempt another edgeguard because hte push is horizontal rather than vertical.

However, I bet only marth mains care about this because some people, for example peach, don't even care if the platform rises under them because they aren't spaced at tipper spacing when it happens and can just drop a bair through the platform.

Anyway the problem is that every character's view on which stages are fine are tilted based on their characters. I think FoD's random stage lifts are a much bigger problem than camping or being pulled under the stage on PS. I have a stock decided by a platform lift every 3-4 matches. Sure I don't die or anything, but the falco would have been dead if i had had a chance to edgeguard. I could just always use only counter to edgeguard to avoid this problem and jsut dair if the platform rises. But let's be honest, sweetspotting counter is easy not to mention half the time sweetspot firefoxes hit the marth and combo him. It's fine to use counter if the fox/falco can't sweetspot from his position, but otherwise it's stupid risky. even if they don't hit you they will take control while you are lagging

In the end if we truly want stage randomness not to be an influence we will have to remove a lot of stages. Or we could just design balanced ones that don't have random effects. I mean we have P:M tourneys going on, why can't we put the effort in to redesign the hacked melee stages and maybe even create new ones?

I doubt it will ever happen, but it would be great to have new stages designed.