Floaties need a counter-pick stage.

[ShroudedOne]

No....I'm not saying that PS should be banned because Fox does well vs Peach/Puff on that stage...I've said this like, one billion times...and then I explain why it's bad because people are like "Oh, floates can't explain why PS is soooo bad for them," when that's not even a relevant discussion that should be had when trying to decide what stages are going to be banned.

Now I see why most people don't bother posting things of more than a few sentences, really.

 

[Kal]

I've looked through the thread ShroudedOne, and all I see is one post where you explain why Peach does badly there. Did I overlook a post where you provided reasoning for why it should be banned? Or are you implying a more general argument in that post that space animals are overpowered on Stadium?

 

[ShroudedOne]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14827848&postcount=72

There was a post where I provided, albeit pretty brief, my reasoning as to why it should be banned at this point (the transformations, specifically rock and fire, detract from gameplay by discouraging any kind of engagement), and I feel like this quickly turned into a "Stadium isn't bad for floaties" (which isn't the point), instead of "Does this stage fit our current views on competition?"

Also, Mahone....Jaiyed?

 

[Kal]

****, I think Falco degrades gameplay. Obviously, you know my opinion on that argument. >_>

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah, I didn't forget. But I acknowledge that it's more just my own view. I just didn't want this to go so far off-topic.

 

[Mahone]

It's clear that if you have to strike from five of these six stages, the one to leave out would be Pokémon Stadium. This doesn't mean Pokémon Stadium is broken, or that it's inherently a "counterpick stage" while the other five aren't. As I made very clear, that Pokémon Stadium is a counterpick stage is a numerical fluke; if we had a sixth stage that was "neutral," we'd probably be striking from a list of seven starters.

I mean, damn, do you even consider arguing reasonably, or is "strawman argument" your default response to everything?

Aiight so...

The one stage classified as a counterpick in this ruleset is only classified as such because we need an odd number of starter stages.

but wait, now its so obvious and CLEAR that ps is the one that would be the 6th stage and the odd man out, even though ur post gave the impression it was arbitrary... of course that was never ur intention and since u didnt EXACTLY say that, i can never say thats what you meant because ive argued with you enough to know that you are a WORD MASTER that can hide by your semantic bs and "win" every argument



ya, you are right, it doesnt mean it HAS to be broken or a "cp stage" just because its the worst of the 6, i understand that, as does everyone here...

instead of assuming we are all ******** and the basis of all our arguments are "well, it says counterpick on the OP, so its broken otherwise itd be called a neutral"...

you could actually read the 2/30 possible reasons i gave that i think are sufficient enough to ban it... you can FALL THROUGH THE STAGE MAN, does that sound competitive to you...

and like someone else said, for practical purposes, we lose respect when we need to camp out transformations all the time in the middle of fastpaced matches

also, smoke, ledges on some tranformations (just do a marth dtilt lol), ledge that f's up ur roll on that one stage, camera at ledges, fall through, stage transforming breaks stuff like grabs, can get infinited on some transformations, some transformations are super campy, marth can dissapear completely if u pause as he fsmashes into the rock... i mean the list goes on man... or maybe it stops there idk, but thats enough for me



oh god u said "Strawman" so like everyone else on the internet you've just won this BATTLE...

i mean, u clearly took high school english and learned some logical fallacies to throw around so how can i compete? I cant talk like i do in real life because ofc this is the internet and serious business where i mean everything literally

Im sorry im not a robot Kal, i understand that humor has no place in arguments and it just makes it harder to understand each other, but sometimes when i feel that the argument isnt as important to my life and the people im arguing with have no significant impact in changing the situation i like to talk freely, you know? Just have some fun and laugh and enjoy my time on this planet... not assume everyone is ********, not play2win in every debate, not waste my time explaining this **** for like the 100th time so that the mbr can just decide to hide behind their private forum and throw me some information crumbs from time to time while making it apparent logic doesnt matter...

oh man, it got kinda dark there, im sorry, ill just stop my post here

 

[Mahone]

Also, Mahone....Jaiyed?

it was a name pun... oh ****, is that not how u spell ur name? i cant remember

I mean we have P:M tourneys going on, why can't we put the effort in to redesign the hacked melee stages and maybe even create new ones?

I doubt it will ever happen, but it would be great to have new stages designed.

ive seen stages like this but the issue is ALL setups would need to have the same stages, and to my knowledge u need a wii to mod the game so that wouldnt work...

 

[ShroudedOne]

No, you got it right. I was only curious.

 

[Kal]

but wait, now its so obvious and CLEAR that ps is the one that would be the 6th stage and the odd man out, even though ur post gave the impression it was arbitrary... of course that was never ur intention and since u didnt EXACTLY say that, i can never say thats what you meant because ive argued with you enough to know that you are a WORD MASTER that can hide by your semantic bs and "win" every argument

All I said was that we had to distinguish one stage from the rest. The obvious choice is Pokémon Stadium (though I think Final Destination could be argued to take its place) and so Pokémon Stadium is deemed a "counterpick stage." In other words, my post made it clear that the stage is still neutral, it just gets moved to "counterpick" because of a numerical fluke.

It would be more appropriate to have labeled the stages "starter" and "non-starter," but as I'm sure we both agree, the MBR is probably not smart enough to think of that themselves.

Edit: in retrospect, I see how you could have gotten that impression. All I really meant was what I clarified with in the other post; if we had an extra neutral stage, we'd be striking from a list of seven.

you could actually read the 2/30 possible reasons i gave that i think are sufficient enough to ban it... you can FALL THROUGH THE STAGE MAN, does that sound competitive to you...

I don't think this happens often enough to warrant a ban. I mean, Shy Guys can **** up "legit" kills, Randall saves (and sometimes kills) people in a way that most consider "random," but I don't see anyone (well, maybe Hax) arguing that this means it should be banned.

and like someone else said, for practical purposes, we lose respect when we need to camp out transformations all the time in the middle of fastpaced matches

I think this is a separate argument that can be addressed in a different thread, but the pros of banning Pokémon Stadium, vis-à-vis pragmatism, are outweighed by the cons of losing the stage, in my opinion.

also, smoke, ledges on some tranformations (just do a marth dtilt lol), ledge that f's up ur roll on that one stage, camera at ledges, fall through, stage transforming breaks stuff like grabs, can get infinited on some transformations, some transformations are super campy, marth can dissapear completely if u pause as he fsmashes into the rock... i mean the list goes on man... or maybe it stops there idk, but thats enough for me

None of this is remotely convincing to me.

oh god u said "Strawman" so like everyone else on the internet you've just won this BATTLE...

i mean, u clearly took high school english and learned some logical fallacies to throw around so how can i compete? I cant talk like i do in real life because ofc this is the internet and serious business where i mean everything literally

I did take high school English. One of my teachers said my essays were too terse to read, so she had her husband grade them, which I thought was kind of a **** move.

Im sorry im not a robot Kal, i understand that humor has no place in arguments and it just makes it harder to understand each other, but sometimes when i feel that the argument isnt as important to my life and the people im arguing with have no significant impact in changing the situation i like to talk freely, you know?

There is an obvious difference between making a joke, or slightly altering my point for the sake of humor, and flat out mischaracterizing my argument altogether, then backpedaling by claiming "it's all in good fun!"

Just have some fun and laugh and enjoy my time on this planet... not assume everyone is ********, not play2win in every debate, not waste my time explaining this **** for like the 100th time so that the mbr can just decide to hide behind their private forum and throw me some information crumbs from time to time while making it apparent logic doesnt matter...

Fun? On the internet?

 

[Mahone]

No, you got it right. I was only curious.

oh i realize i didnt add an "ed" to the end, my b

@kal: well i think ys would deserve a ban as well so i cant really comment on that. same with dreamland ****ing up marth's ****... i never see anyone talk about that but its a HUGE deal and happens often enough that it can matter. it must be a version thing cuz ive NEVER seen it on my gamecube but i see it quite often on my friends

i really didnt feel like i attacked u at all???

didnt i just attack the mbr which u arent a part of?

i didnt feel like i was "mischaracterizing" your argument and then backpedaling, because i really do hate when people do that, but either way, my bad if it came off that way...

i thought we were just internet-bonding over those douchebags in the mbr...

just like when u work a 9-5 in the accounting department and you make jabs at those "douchebags in marketing", but really you know they are pretty great guys that are just like you, but you wanna fit in and have a common enemy to bond over

 

[Tero.]

The stage list is not an opportunity to balance the character roster.

This!

But if you really want to we can make PS neutral and FoD/FD CP

Oh and people need to stop with the Mute City ****. If you really think that stage should be legal you're either casual, a Peach/Puff main or just dumb.

 

[Kal]

@Mahone

I thought we bonded over Poker already. And that time you admitted that Dan Harrington was good. But we can also bond over those douche bags in the MBR. Except Umbreon and Kish, who are awesome. Also Cactuar, but only because he's a mod.

Anyway, I love you too or whatever. <3

 

[Bones0]

DON"T even get me started on that STUPID FREAKING STAGE!!!

FoD is a thousand times more random and imbalanced than PS ever was. It's fine for falcos who have crap edgeguarding already to not worry about the platforms randomly rising from underneath them. But marth often doesn't have time to reach offstage or sometimes it's just a bad option vs falco, and then if you try to edgeguard from onstage and the platform happens to be down, you have no idea whether the platform will just rise while you're about to edgeguard.

I doubt it will ever happen, but it would be great to have new stages designed.

You say FoD's platform messes up an edgeguard once every 3-4 games. How often does a PS transformation mess you up? I would consider myself quite adept when it comes to improvising, coordinating, and multitasking to work well with stage obstacles, but even so, PS messes me up about half of the time it transforms, which is at least once or twice a game. It can completely remove an opportunity that I previously would have had because of simple logistics like running to edge guard someone but the mountain pops up, stage is transforming so I HAVE to jump to get over the invisible ledges, etc. Other than that, I guess I would just advise you to try to be more aware of when the platforms are in the ground so you can expect them to come up. Simply standing by the ledge and WDing back into dtilt at the last second avoids 99% of platform rises without affecting the quality of your edgeguard. Every time I enter an edgeguard opportunity, I just check the platform to see where it is and how I can work around it much like I would Randall, and on DL I just expect the wind all the time until the last moment so I can walk a little into my dtilt or whatever.


As far as custom stages, if I ever ran another local with 20-30 some people, I would just go around to every setup with an AR and disable PS transformations, DL wind, and YS Shy Guys (and NO, not FoD plats, so suck it ;p). I think it'd be relatively simple, and I wouldn't be upset to see this being done at majors for like the last top 8 of the bracket or something. Like at FC, I think it would have been fairly simple to take the 8 setups they were using and load up 3 simple AR codes, and this way you don't have to worry about even the rarest stuff messing up the most important matches. And just before someone suggests it, I don't think a Gentlemen's agreement to use an AR disc would work as effectively because of PS's transformations often helping out certain characters. A Fox main isn't (usually) going to agree to turn off transformations because they give him a decent advantage over a plain PS.

 

[kd-]

While you're at it, make hacked Green Greens a tournament standard too Bones.

 

[Redd]

@Mahone

I thought we bonded over Poker already. And that time you admitted that Dan Harrington was good. But we can also bond over those douche bags in the MBR. Except Umbreon and Kish, who are awesome. Also Cactuar, but only because he's a mod.

Anyway, I love you too or whatever. <3

I'm not a... douchebag. </3

Mahone are you still in town? you and KP refuse to answer your phones when I respond lol.

 

[Bones0]

While you're at it, make hacked Green Greens a tournament standard too Bones.

To the best of my knowledge, you can't play Green Greens with AR, you need an actual hacked disc and Wii. The only code for Green Greens that I've seen doesn't have wind, apples, or falling blocks, but there are still blocks spawned in on the top blastzone (so if you get hit upwards into them it saves you). It also wouldn't be fair because only people with AR would be able to practice the tourney legal Green Greens, which would be A LOT different from its unhacked counterpart. The difference of strategy that is required from hacked and unhacked PS/DL/YS is virtually nonexistent.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Stage favours a floaty? Let's ban that ****.

Favours fox? OH **** OH **** BETTER KEEP A STAGE LIKE THAT.

 

[Get Low]

Stage favours a floaty? Let's ban that ****.

Favours fox? OH **** OH **** BETTER KEEP A STAGE LIKE THAT.

Congrats on giving me my new signature.

 

[Bones0]

Oh, good. There's so many ignorant posters that it's been getting kind of difficult to keep track of all of them, but that sig will definitely help.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I agree; keeping a stage in our stage list because it doesn't **** over spacies is a good thing.

Also Peach is the best in the game because international tournament results are all that matter for tier lists.

 

[Strong Badam]

unsubscribing to this ****ty thread

 

[Mahone]

I'm not a... douchebag. </3

Mahone are you still in town? you and KP refuse to answer your phones when I respond lol.

Ya... Thats exactly how its happening...

You know ur phone can also do this voice chat thing thats pretty cool...

Or you could... Eh forget it, its fine

 

[EPsilon933]

Also Peach is the best in the game

Yes she is, along with 5 other characters

 

[Get Low]

I would like to see a floaty main defend Stadium.
No one cares if you're a spacie main defending it, because your bias is obvious.

 

[Strong Badam]

No one cares if you're a floaty main attacking it, because your bias is obvious.
On top of that, I've been defending PS throughout this thread and I don't main a Spacie.

Terrible, weak debate. This thread is disgusting.

 

[Get Low]

Terrible, weak debate.

I disagree. I think both sides are doing a good job of arguing their opinion.
I think you're just mad because you're one of those people that can't handle when people express an opinion that opposes yours.

 

[Bones0]

I would like to see a floaty main defend Stadium.
No one cares if you're a spacie main defending it, because your bias is obvious.

I am pro banning PS, so saying I'm biased doesn't even make sense. I just couldn't believe when I first saw this thread that someone would be dumb enough to think that certain characters being bad on a stage makes it banworthy. Then, to my dismay, a wave of Peach mains came in and supported it being banned BECAUSE PEACH IS BAD ON IT. Mahone and myself are the only ones I remember talking about why the stage is actually bad (transformations disrupting gameplay, ****ty ledge camera, etc). Everyone else has been explaining why it's soooooooo impossible for floaties to win there as if it even matters (and this was going on before Strong Bad brought up the point asking why it's even bad).

 

[ShroudedOne]

*wooooooooosh*

 

[Get Low]

...............................................

Yeah ok, **** this thread. Since apparently I'm just talking to the ****ing air.

If you guys are seriously that bad at reading and comprehending posts, then there is no discussion to be had here.

Oh my God, Jaiye. You swore. :O
That's when I know that a thread is heated.

 

[Cactuar]

Oh man. This thread.

 

[Get Low]

Oh man. This thread.

I have a question for you. Who all helped in deciding the current stagelist?

 

[Bones0]

There wasn't much of a decision to be made as far as I'm concerned. The vast majority of the community only ever plays on the 6 stages that are currently legal. There's a million subjective, arbitrary reasons to not play on the last few counterpicks that were banned. People try to argue that they're not jank as can be, yet I've never heard of even two people who play together that keep Mute City or RC on random. It just doesn't happen from what I can tell.

@ShroudedOne
You can act like I'm ridiculous, but just a few posts ago Kal asked where you made your argument against PS as a stage, and not as a means of balancing the game, and you replied with a link to a brief paragraph about why waiting 15 seconds was not cool or fun. Then by comparison, you have multiple longer posts about why it's bad for Peach. Just super saiyan.

 

[ShroudedOne]

"Not cool or fun" are hardly the words I used to describe the transformations, since I've basically said that the transformations are bad for the same reasons you did (disruptive and detracting from gameplay). Furthermore, this discussion shouldn't have been about why she was bad there, but you and Strong Bad were going, "I don't see why PS is so bad for Peach," when that wasn't really the point. Then, when I explain why it's bad for Peach (in exactly one post), you go, "Well, that doesnt' really matter anyways, Peach mains are all biased, PS shouldn't be banned just because your character is bad on it," when no one said that it SHOULD be banned just because she's bad on it.

At the very least, I have not ONCE said that. If you're going to paraphrase what I say, don't be misleading about it.

 

[Bones0]

"Not cool or fun" are hardly the words I used to describe the transformations, since I've basically said that the transformations are bad for the same reasons you did (disruptive and detracting from gameplay). Furthermore, this discussion shouldn't have been about why she was bad there, but you and Strong Bad were going, "I don't see why PS is so bad for Peach," when that wasn't really the point. Then, when I explain why it's bad for Peach (in exactly one post), you go, "Well, that doesnt' really matter anyways, Peach mains are all biased, PS shouldn't be banned just because your character is bad on it," when no one said that it SHOULD be banned just because she's bad on it.

At the very least, I have not ONCE said that. If you're going to paraphrase what I say, don't be misleading about it.

When prompted with your reasoning by Kal, you provided this direct quote:

Standing there for maybe 10-15 seconds doesn't add anything to the metagame, it doesn't facilitate any chance for matchup growth, it just makes it really dull and taxing (in a non-mental sort of way) for both the players and those watching.

You describe the transformations as dull (not cool or interesting) stalemates that are taxing (as opposed to fun). This distinction is made even more clearly by the fact that you went on to consider how it makes spectators feel to watch this "dull" gameplay. Not once did you address the point of competitive integrity and how the worse player may get an unearned advantage due to stage changes. If those are you actual reasons for wanting the stage banned, that's great, and I agree it makes it banworthy. I just haven't seen that in this thread, which is especially troublesome because the entire basis of the thread was balancing the game. If you made the same posts you did in some other thread, it may not have seemed so bad, but it's kind of incriminating when this is basically what happened:

Person makes thread about adding more counterpicks solely to benefit floaties.

Someone suggests banning PS instead.

You say "Thank you," then go on to talk about why the stage is bad for floaties. You didn't mention anything about the transformations until the 72nd post. The first thing out of everyone's mouth should have been jeering towards the OP for trying to balance characters by adding/removing stages. If you believe that Falco dittos on PS are just as uncompetitive as Fox vs. Peach on PS, then great, but I have the feeling you think PS is somehow only unfair for floaties, and never for other characters.

 

[Cactuar]

I have a question for you. Who all helped in deciding the current stagelist?

Popular trends in tournament standards.

I believe its been stated before...

The recommended ruleset is written as a reflection of the current tournament scene, with some regard to trending behavior in terms of stagelist. Some additional rules have been added on a player election basis to allow for means of playing a so-called "more fair" set, through usage of neutral start, controller port decision making, etc.

That being said: the ruleset is used as a model for tournament hosts to use when creating the ruleset for their own tournaments. We encourage TOs to modify it for their local scene. If, nationally, TOs trend towards the removal of PS based on local players voicing their opinions, then it'll get removed in the next recommended ruleset. Pretty simple stuff mang.


Oh, and we ignore midwest tournaments and TOs when we talk about stagelists. Because the midwest is full of weirdos.

 

[Deleted member]

I would like to see a floaty main defend Stadium.
No one cares if you're a spacie main defending it, because your bias is obvious.

I main Zelda.

Zelda is fine on Pokemon Stadium.

I lose almost strictly to match-up disadvantages or being the player with less talent.

I have never lost to Pokemon Stadium, not against Fox or any other character.

Then again, I also understand how to play Super Smash Bros. Melee for the Nintendo Gamecube, which puts me head and shoulders above most of the people in this thread.

edit: I agree with Charles that we can strictly ignore the midwest.

 

[Bones0]

Mm *****!

 

[Purpletuce]

What if Mute City was brought back, and before each match, either play could opt to ban both. On slightly serious matches, no unfair advantage with spacies being the only ones with a CP, and in truly competitive matches, only balanced stages would be played on. Also, makes more stages to be played on.

 

[Bones0]

Stop trying to balance the game... yadda, yadda...

 

[Purpletuce]

I'm not trying to balance the game, I'm trying to make points to help stop the current MBR official list from continuing to unbalance it.