FinOlimar Q&A Thread! (Check OP before posting)

[aqua421]

my olimar does pretty well until i get hit into the air and my opponents below me, what should i do in this situation?

 

[Plasma Pikmin]

It depends on the opponent you're facing. Generally, you can predict what they are going to do and airdodge. If you don't feel safe with that, you can spam Whistle to get Super Armor, most opponents are unsure of the frames. You can try Nair or Dair to surprise them, but I wouldn't try that myself. That's on you.

 

[¤Vivi Orunitia¤]

It depends on the opponent you're facing. Generally, you can predict what they are going to do and airdodge. If you don't feel safe with that, you can spam Whistle to get Super Armor, most opponents are unsure of the frames. You can try Nair or Dair to surprise them, but I wouldn't try that myself. That's on you.

Unless if you're gonna jump after you dair, dair would not be a good move to use when falling back down. But like he said use nair/whistle/airdodge(which I wouldn't really recommend because your opponent can take advantage of the deadframes and could punish you).

 

[fromundaman]

Okay, this is probably a stupid question, but someone mentioned this on the Kirby boardswhile talking about our Copy power.
Recently, someone posted that Pikmin has invul. frames when he plucks pikmin. I am pretty much sure this is false, and none of your guides talk about it, but I thought I might as well ask and make sure before calling this person out on it.



Also, I don't know if you guys know, but a while back I was messing with inhale, and for some reason, when Olimar Fsmashes into Kirby's inhale, sometimes that Pikmin will disappear, and a replacement for that one cannot be plucked until you lose a stock, effectively lowering your Max Pikmin amount by one.
I've only seen it work once per stock, and kind of rarely, but you guys may want to look into it, to make sure other wind/water effects don't do this to your Pikmin.

 

[Plasma Pikmin]

I'm pretty sure that Pikmin has invincibility frames when Olimar plucks them.. I think it lasts until then Pikmin land on the ground.

And the other thing you said. That's called the Ghost Pikmin glitch, whenever that happens to Olimar. It can happen with any character. It's basically when Oli has 5 Pikmin and he can't attack with any of them until he dies. Not a good thing for us obviously. I didn't know that you can do it that easily with Kirby though.

 

[¤Vivi Orunitia¤]

And the other thing you said. That's called the Ghost Pikmin glitch, whenever that happens to Olimar. It can happen with any character. It's basically when Oli has 5 Pikmin and he can't attack with any of them until he dies. Not a good thing for us obviously. I didn't know that you can do it that easily with Kirby though.

The glitch happens randomly, it isn't encouraged by any character. One determining factor is the stage Olimar was on, Delfino Plaza has shown an increase of its occurrences though >.>

 

[Plasma Pikmin]

Kirby can encourage it, and if someone kills the Pikmin, then it can happen, so characers can encourage it as well as stages. But yes, it does happen randomly.

 

[¤Vivi Orunitia¤]

Kirby can encourage it, and if someone kills the Pikmin, then it can happen, so characers can encourage it as well as stages. But yes, it does happen randomly.

That wasn't what I meant, I meant that since it happens randomly no character can add to the chance of it occurring.

That same scenario could be used for D3 as well or any other character for that matter, would you say the same thing as well?

 

[Plasma Pikmin]

Oh, ok. I see what you're saying now. I do agree with that.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

ummm... it's definitely not random. I'm 90% sure it's caused by your actions on a close to frame perfect basis. Give me a week or two more of researching into it and I plan to have it figured out.

Also, kirby inhaling pikmin?
Vid?

I've never seen anything of the such, but I'll test it out today.

 

[fromundaman]

I'm pretty sure that Pikmin has invincibility frames when Olimar plucks them.. I think it lasts until then Pikmin land on the ground.

And the other thing you said. That's called the Ghost Pikmin glitch, whenever that happens to Olimar. It can happen with any character. It's basically when Oli has 5 Pikmin and he can't attack with any of them until he dies. Not a good thing for us obviously. I didn't know that you can do it that easily with Kirby though.

Ah, so it does have invul frames? Okay, thanks.


Also, that's not what I'm talking about. You start with 6, and your max number goes down to 5. You can use the other 5, and it won't happen (in my experience) again until the Olimar dies. Also, it didn't seem consistent, but it happened fairly often, and mainly for the white if I remember correctly.
I don't have vids, as I did it in training a while ago, and my Wii just stopped reading my Brawl disc yesterday, so I can't make one. DJ_Iskascribble can vouch for me though, since he was helping me test something else when we found it.
That being said, he doesn't eat the pikmin. They seemed to either ignore the wind and fall, or fly through him and off the screen with increased momentum. When they flew offscreen, there was a chance of the described event happening.

I did this with two players in training mode, on a large flat custom stage (Custom stage because I needed the camera to zoom out farther to properly test inhale break footstools.).

 

[Dyyne]

Uhhh, the pikmin is invulnerable, but, apparently, there's also 1 frame where oli is invulnerable, if that was what you were thinking of.

 

[professor mgw]

Camping with olimar isn't 2 wise when fighting snake.
A WORD OF WISDOM YOUNG ONES!

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Camping with olimar isn't 2 wise when fighting snake.
A WORD OF WISDOM YOUNG ONES!

This guy knows what he's talking about.

Uhhh, the pikmin is invulnerable, but, apparently, there's also 1 frame where oli is invulnerable, if that was what you were thinking of.

Has this been confirmed? I've seen nothing on it, although it's been mentioned a couple of times in the past.

 

[SuSa]

So uhm.... I'm waaay better with 2 pikmin then I am with any other amount of pikmin.

I also seem to find 2 color combo's the best. (EG: Alternating Blue/Yellow...

Blue Grab > Yellow Usmash > Blue uair > Yellow uair > FF > wait > as they land blue grab > blue dthrow > Yellow fair > whistle > toss Yellow > wait for landing > blue grab

stuff like that... and that entire thing basically works until the yellow uair against most chars starting at 0% and the second part is a nice follow up that works for me often.

The problem with 6 is when you whistle they go into color order. Making you either waste time using them, or waste time whistling to get to the color you want.

I see no benefit (except for when recovering) of having 6 pikmin. If you have 2, toss them both and up-B. It's just as good as having 4 (IIRC) and most times when I do play with 6 and need to recover, I only have 3-4 anyways...... then I need to toss them all and up-B...

I don't know if it's something I'm doing wrong or if my reasoning of the combo's/uses of 2 pikmin combination may have some actual backing to it.

It's also far less work to get the pikmin I need.... when I need to KO and just happen to have 1 purple 1 red? or 2 purples? It's great...

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

So uhm.... I'm waaay better with 2 pikmin then I am with any other amount of pikmin.

I also seem to find 2 color combo's the best. (EG: Alternating Blue/Yellow...

Blue Grab > Yellow Usmash > Blue uair > Yellow uair > FF > wait > as they land blue grab > blue dthrow > Yellow fair > whistle > toss Yellow > wait for landing > blue grab

stuff like that... and that entire thing basically works until the yellow uair against most chars starting at 0% and the second part is a nice follow up that works for me often.

The problem with 6 is when you whistle they go into color order. Making you either waste time using them, or waste time whistling to get to the color you want.

I see no benefit (except for when recovering) of having 6 pikmin. If you have 2, toss them both and up-B. It's just as good as having 4 (IIRC) and most times when I do play with 6 and need to recover, I only have 3-4 anyways...... then I need to toss them all and up-B...

I don't know if it's something I'm doing wrong or if my reasoning of the combo's/uses of 2 pikmin combination may have some actual backing to it.

It's also far less work to get the pikmin I need.... when I need to KO and just happen to have 1 purple 1 red? or 2 purples? It's great...

I must say this is interesting to hear, since I'm most fond of just using the one Pikmin. Although I do change it very often, neither I nor the oppponent can predict what colour it will be. Also allows actual use of the pluck cancel and silent plucking.

 

[¤Vivi Orunitia¤]

ummm... it's definitely not random. I'm 90% sure it's caused by your actions on a close to frame perfect basis. Give me a week or two more of researching into it and I plan to have it figured out.

Also, kirby inhaling pikmin?
Vid?

I've never seen anything of the such, but I'll test it out today.

Hmm, I just assumed that because it didn't happen to me all of the time and it did after moves other than the fair>FF back to the ledge thing.

So uhm.... I'm waaay better with 2 pikmin then I am with any other amount of pikmin.

I also seem to find 2 color combo's the best. (EG: Alternating Blue/Yellow...

Blue Grab > Yellow Usmash > Blue uair > Yellow uair > FF > wait > as they land blue grab > blue dthrow > Yellow fair > whistle > toss Yellow > wait for landing > blue grab

stuff like that... and that entire thing basically works until the yellow uair against most chars starting at 0% and the second part is a nice follow up that works for me often.

The problem with 6 is when you whistle they go into color order. Making you either waste time using them, or waste time whistling to get to the color you want.

I see no benefit (except for when recovering) of having 6 pikmin. If you have 2, toss them both and up-B. It's just as good as having 4 (IIRC) and most times when I do play with 6 and need to recover, I only have 3-4 anyways...... then I need to toss them all and up-B...

I don't know if it's something I'm doing wrong or if my reasoning of the combo's/uses of 2 pikmin combination may have some actual backing to it.

It's also far less work to get the pikmin I need.... when I need to KO and just happen to have 1 purple 1 red? or 2 purples? It's great...

I find it kinda annoying to only have 2 pikmin, I like more variety so I'm more comfortable with all 6(of any kind). How would 2 pikmin help you versus characters who possess multiple elemental moves(i.e. Lucas/Ness/Mario/Samus/PT for example, for them you could have a red/blue/yellow but if you don't those pikmin you'll end up wasting time trying to get them at the price of giving your opponent time to think of an approach)?

 

[knightzy]

The bottom line here is you should all be able to use each type of pikmin,watch you're line what i do sometimes is from the jump they excpect a f-air so i whistle and red f-smash,dont single them out there mindless drones after all...

 

[Dyyne]

Has this been confirmed? I've seen nothing on it, although it's been mentioned a couple of times in the past.

I..I thought you confirmed it rofl. Ok, maybe not then lawl.

So uhm.... I'm waaay better with 2 pikmin then I am with any other amount of pikmin.

I also seem to find 2 color combo's the best. (EG: Alternating Blue/Yellow...

Blue Grab > Yellow Usmash > Blue uair > Yellow uair > FF > wait > as they land blue grab > blue dthrow > Yellow fair > whistle > toss Yellow > wait for landing > blue grab

stuff like that... and that entire thing basically works until the yellow uair against most chars starting at 0% and the second part is a nice follow up that works for me often.

The problem with 6 is when you whistle they go into color order. Making you either waste time using them, or waste time whistling to get to the color you want.

I see no benefit (except for when recovering) of having 6 pikmin. If you have 2, toss them both and up-B. It's just as good as having 4 (IIRC) and most times when I do play with 6 and need to recover, I only have 3-4 anyways...... then I need to toss them all and up-B...

I don't know if it's something I'm doing wrong or if my reasoning of the combo's/uses of 2 pikmin combination may have some actual backing to it.

It's also far less work to get the pikmin I need.... when I need to KO and just happen to have 1 purple 1 red? or 2 purples? It's great...

Well, if you have only 2 pikmin, good luck actually getting that grab in. You can't toss any pikmin for camping's sake with 2, therefore you can't even bait them into a grab, which is a major purpose of camping. Combo purposes, whites and purples are the only ones that will significantly interfere with it, and you just have to be mindful of it. If you're comboing with two, it's possible that they won't even be back in line after you attack with both, which ends it there. Pikmin are stupid, and often unpredictable. Having six is a bit of a parachute for this danger, since it won't matter if one or two act ******** because you have more to back you up. Four pikmin can allow you to recover from much farther awar than if you were pikminless. Three is less notable, but it still helps. It's when you have two or one, a situation that you should hope to never be in, is when you want to ditch them. Except you'll always be in that position. There are more disadvantages as well, in areas like your offensive tether is crap and utterly useless. Pluck cancelling mindgames are the only area that may be buffed with two, but this does not make up for the other disadvantages at all.
Not to say that it can't be fun or anything.

 

[SuSa]

I find it kinda annoying to only have 2 pikmin, I like more variety so I'm more comfortable with all 6(of any kind). How would 2 pikmin help you versus characters who possess multiple elemental moves(i.e. Lucas/Ness/Mario/Samus/PT for example, for them you could have a red/blue/yellow but if you don't those pikmin you'll end up wasting time trying to get them at the price of giving your opponent time to think of an approach)?

Blue is useless in all of your above examples AFAIK. Since Mario's/Squirtle's down-B/B (respectfully) don't damage Pikmin, blue is useless against opponents with elemental properties.

Red is useful for Lucas/Ness/Mario/Charizard/Samus/Snake/Bowser in the fact it can stop PK fires without dying, can survive a dtilt (relatively useless against Samus anyways, rofl) can go through? chars/bows flames, and can make Snake's mine blow up.

Yellow absorbs energy (Samus's charge shot, Lucas/Ness PKT) without dying, which is a plus in those matchups.

So having 2 pikmin would be a benefit, because if I have a yellow/red combo against Lucas/Ness - I can stop their PKT with yellow quickly, and same with their pk fire with red. I can gimp them easily with either pikmin (if on their head) since they absorb the PKT.

Also the point is to not panic. When a pikmin dies or you need another you wait until you have the chance. I only need to pluck 1-2 anways so it takes no time. I can also hold my own with 1 pikmin. (And have beaten some people who can beat my MAIN (Snake) but lose to my NO PIKMIN Olimar....) so I'm not scared about being pikminless. Just play smarter.

The bottom line here is you should all be able to use each type of pikmin,watch you're line what i do sometimes is from the jump they excpect a f-air so i whistle and red f-smash,dont single them out there mindless drones after all...

I can keep track of my line of pikmin, but lets say your line is:

Red, Red, Red, Yellow, Blue, White, Purple

Let's say you really need that blue to grab. You have 2 choices:

1. Whistle twice
2. Use 4 pikmin in any combination

But what if you REALLY needed that blue ASAP? If you just had Red, Blue or Yellow, Blue. You could whistle once, or quickly side-B a pikmin away and grab.

Well, if you have only 2 pikmin, good luck actually getting that grab in. You can't toss any pikmin for camping's sake with 2, therefore you can't even bait them into a grab, which is a major purpose of camping. Combo purposes, whites and purples are the only ones that will significantly interfere with it, and you just have to be mindful of it. If you're comboing with two, it's possible that they won't even be back in line after you attack with both, which ends it there. Pikmin are stupid, and often unpredictable. Having six is a bit of a parachute for this danger, since it won't matter if one or two act ******** because you have more to back you up. Four pikmin can allow you to recover from much farther awar than if you were pikminless. Three is less notable, but it still helps. It's when you have two or one, a situation that you should hope to never be in, is when you want to ditch them. Except you'll always be in that position. There are more disadvantages as well, in areas like your offensive tether is crap and utterly useless. Pluck cancelling mindgames are the only area that may be buffed with two, but this does not make up for the other disadvantages at all.
Not to say that it can't be fun or anything.

I get the grab in often, even against the more experienced players I face. I play aggressively rather then camp and I can still bait a grab. It's called proper spacing from enemy attacks. (Almost a form of bowyering )

I've never really had the issue of a pikmin not coming back in line, it's happen so few times that it's not to important to me.

Also if one-two are acting ********, you won't notice until you wasted your time using a "blank" anyways - which in most cases is long enough for the pikmin being stupid to fix itself when using 2 pikmin.

0 pikmin > up to 3 pikmin IIRC 4-6 is better. But what if you have 0 purples and your opponent is simply edgeguarding? Then it really doesn't make a difference if you have 6 or 2. (theres been many times where I've had 6 pikmin and no purples)

When I need to offensive tether (or think I will have to) I generally pluck more pikmin. I don't play strictly with 2 but after I get a kill or have time, I toss 4 off.

Also it's fun as hell.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I must say... out of all the people that have argued the usefulness of "olimar with two pikmin", this is probably the most intelligent argument I've seen. However I don't agree.


First of all, yellow pikmin do not absorb electric attacks. They merely arent damaged by them. If Lucas uses his PK Thunder and it hits a yellow pikmin, the PK Thunder will NOT stop. It will continue on, although the pikmin will remain on him, or on the ground, or where ever it is. If Ness uses PK Thunder and it hits a yellow pikmin, it will, however, stop. But this is not because of the pikmin but because of Ness's attack. If Ness's PK Thunder hits ANY pikmin, the thunder will stop. Also, any pikmin will make snake's mine blow up. Red pikmin merely live through it.

I can keep track of my line of pikmin, but lets say your line is:

Red, Red, Red, Yellow, Blue, White, Purple

Let's say you really need that blue to grab. You have 2 choices:

1. Whistle twice
2. Use 4 pikmin in any combination

But what if you REALLY needed that blue ASAP? If you just had Red, Blue or Yellow, Blue. You could whistle once, or quickly side-B a pikmin away and grab.

First of all I'll ignore the fact that the line had seven pikmin in it lol. Okay, first of all you say that "you really need that blue to grab".

Why? Are you going for a kill? Because as far as blue grabs are concerned, a kill would be the only reason you would want a blue over a red, unless you're going for damage buildup while at mid percents, which it doesnt seem like you are.

So if you ARE going for a kill, let's look at the rest of your line. You have three reds in a row, which are good for killing with forward smash, down smash, up smash, and forward air. Using these pikmin for a kill with any of those attacks would be perfectly fine. But you say you "really need that blue grab asap", and I'm assuming you will have a 100% chance of getting the grab, as impractical as that may be.

Olimar's grab is by no means fast. Whistling once and then sending out a grab will take slightly over thirty frames. Half of a second. And this is while assuming that the opponent is as close to you as possible, otherwise there would be extra frames of the pikmin traveling towards the opponent. If you need a grab ASAP and it's going to take 30+ frames for it to connect, it's probably not going to work. By any means it isnt reliable.

That's the thing. You can predict and plan when you're going to throw out a blue grab, but not when said blue grab is going to connect. Different pikmin arent good for merely one purpose. Blue's arent JUST good for throws. Reds arent JUST good for fair. These are common misconceptions (not that they are being made by you) that people make when they see one pikmin is better than another at something.

Let's say your line is as follows:
Red, Yellow, Blue, Blue, Purple, Purple
The order doesnt really matter, that's not what i'm getting at. With this line you have:

Grabs
66% of your pikmin that can be used for throw kills (120%+)
83% of your pikmin that can be used for throw kills at extreme percents (160%+)
66% of your pikmin that can be used for starting combos at low percents
66% of your pikmin that have a reliable grab range
83% of your pikmin that deal 11+ damage from throws
33% of your pikmin that deal 13/14 damage from throws

Smashes
83% of your pikmin that can be used for forward smash kills (120%+)
50% of your pikmin that can be used for more reliable forward smash kills (120%+ and good range)
100%/100% of your pikmin that can be used for up smash kills (120%+)
100%/100% of your pikmin that can be used for down smash kills (120%+)

Aerials
83% of your pikmin that can be used for forward air kills (120%+)
83% of your pikmin that deal 20%+ from up air

Other
33% of your pikmin that are better than others for pikmin toss(purples>white>red/blue/yellow)


However, with your options of having "red and blue or yellow and blue" as you suggested, we have this (respectively)

Grabs
50%/50% of your pikmin that can be used for throw kills (120%+)
50%/100% of your pikmin that can be used for throw kills at extreme percents (160%+)
100%/100% of your pikmin that can be used for starting combos at low percents
100%/100% of your pikmin that have a reliable grab range
50%/100% of your pikmin that deal 11+ damage from throws
50%/50% of your pikmin that deal 13/14 damage from throws

Smashes
100%/50%of your pikmin that can be used for forward smash kills (120%+)
100%/50% of your pikmin that can be used for more reliable forward smash kills (120%+ and good range)
100%/100% of your pikmin that can be used for up smash kills (120%+)
100%/100% of your pikmin that can be used for down smash kills (120%+)

Aerials
100%/50% of your pikmin that can be used for forward air kills (120%+)
100%/50% of your pikmin that deal 20%+ from up air


Other
0% of your pikmin that are better than others for pikmin toss(purples>white>red/blue/yellow)


Notice a pattern? the Red/Blue combination is definitely good at smashes and aerials, but not as much in grabs. While the vice versa exists, where the the blue/yellow combination is better at grabs than it is smashes/aerials. Look at the damage and kill percentage chart in this thread and you'll see a noticeable lack of reds' ability in grabs, and yellows' in smashes/aerials, as compared to the colors that overshadow them. However, the point of having the previous red/yellow/blue/blue/purple/purple line, is that you arent locked to attacks. The line pretty much covers everything that's important to olimar's game.

Blue pikmin are universal and are good at pretty much everything. The other colors? Not so much. Your main focus in playing olimar should not be to "quickly bring up a pikmin at an exact time", but to have the colors fall into place. You act as if latch isn't as important to olimar's game as it actually is. If I have a blue pikmin fourth in line, I may spam the previous three with latch. Not merely to waste the pikmin so the blue will be in front, but to force an approach that will run right into my blue grab. Or say it's red/yellow/purple/blue/red/white, in that order. I may spam the first two from the air, then upon landing, throw the purple after dashing, thus knocking my opponent to the ground for the blue grab that will combo into my red up smash, coming out to around 35%.

The point is to not use pikmin for their best purpose to where it would become predictable, but to have enough pikmin so that you at least have enough options. Another thing to remember, that is very important, is that you wont always be in theposition to do the "best possible option" with a pikmin. That's another reason it's best to try to cover as many options as possible.

I wont say that Olimar with six pikmin is without a doubt better than olimar with two, however I do NOT believe that olimar with two is better than six.

 

[SuSa]

I must say... out of all the people that have argued the usefulness of "olimar with two pikmin", this is probably the most intelligent argument I've seen. However I don't agree

You don't have to.

First of all, yellow pikmin do not absorb electric attacks. They merely arent damaged by them. If Lucas uses his PK Thunder and it hits a yellow pikmin, the PK Thunder will NOT stop. It will continue on, although the pikmin will remain on him, or on the ground, or where ever it is. If Ness uses PK Thunder and it hits a yellow pikmin, it will, however, stop. But this is not because of the pikmin but because of Ness's attack. If Ness's PK Thunder hits ANY pikmin, the thunder will stop. Also, any pikmin will make snake's mine blow up. Red pikmin merely live through it.

That's what I get for playing too many Ness's and not enough Lucas. I understand that they just aren't damaged by them. This is my bad for completely failing my phrasing.

I meant live through, which is of vital importance for the most part when playing with 2. (Although it's not "needed" its desired).

My bad for failing on that part. <3

First of all I'll ignore the fact that the line had seven pikmin in it lol. Okay, first of all you say that "you really need that blue to grab".

I put 7 in? *needs some sleeeep* (make that 2 reds not 3 reds then)[/quote]

Why? Are you going for a kill? Because as far as blue grabs are concerned, a kill would be the only reason you would want a blue over a red, unless you're going for damage buildup while at mid percents, which it doesnt seem like you are.

Not necessarily a kill, but the knockback is great so getting the opponent offstage with an fthrow/bthrow for a gimp/juggle opportunity. Now at low %'s (0-20%) but not at "why stale it now %'s" either (60-90%) so within the range of 25-55% when near the edges and char. dependant.

So if you ARE going for a kill, let's look at the rest of your line. You have three reds in a row, which are good for killing with forward smash, down smash, up smash, and forward air. Using these pikmin for a kill with any of those attacks would be perfectly fine. But you say you "really need that blue grab asap", and I'm assuming you will have a 100% chance of getting the grab, as impractical as that may be.

Even if I whiff the grab, getting back to the blue is extremely fast compared to if I had a larger line. I do realize red can KO with any smash/forward air, but can it hit backwards (bthrow)? What if you're on Jungle Japes?

There are scenarios that yes, I wouldn't need to switch pikmin - but more often then not I find myself needing a certain pikmin over another for a given situation. When I use 6 pikmin, that color almost always seems to be near the end for me.

Rather then taking my blue example word for word, substitute it for the scenarios where you've gone "man I wish x color was in front because it'd be so much more useful right now" which is more likely to happen with a wider variety of pikmin.

Olimar's grab is by no means fast. Whistling once and then sending out a grab will take slightly over thirty frames. Half of a second. And this is while assuming that the opponent is as close to you as possible, otherwise there would be extra frames of the pikmin traveling towards the opponent. If you need a grab ASAP and it's going to take 30+ frames for it to connect, it's probably not going to work. By any means it isnt reliable.

How long does a pikmin toss take? (Curiosity)

That's the thing. You can predict and plan when you're going to throw out a blue grab, but not when said blue grab is going to connect. Different pikmin arent good for merely one purpose. Blue's arent JUST good for throws. Reds arent JUST good for fair. These are common misconceptions (not that they are being made by you) that people make when they see one pikmin is better than another at something.

I know that's not ALL they are good for, but that's their "specialty" which means more often then not if I want to use a certain move, I want a certain color pikmin.

Let's say your line is as follows:
Red, Yellow, Blue, Blue, Purple, Purple
The order doesnt really matter, that's not what i'm getting at. With this line you have:

Grabs
66% of your pikmin that can be used for throw kills (120%+)
83% of your pikmin that can be used for throw kills at extreme percents (160%+)
66% of your pikmin that can be used for starting combos at low percents
66% of your pikmin that have a reliable grab range
83% of your pikmin that deal 11+ damage from throws
33% of your pikmin that deal 13/14 damage from throws

Smashes
83% of your pikmin that can be used for forward smash kills (120%+)
50% of your pikmin that can be used for more reliable forward smash kills (120%+ and good range)
100%/100% of your pikmin that can be used for up smash kills (120%+)
100%/100% of your pikmin that can be used for down smash kills (120%+)

Aerials
83% of your pikmin that can be used for forward air kills (120%+)
83% of your pikmin that deal 20%+ from up air

Other
33% of your pikmin that are better than others for pikmin toss(purples>white>red/blue/yellow)


However, with your options of having "red and blue or yellow and blue" as you suggested, we have this (respectively)

Grabs
50%/50% of your pikmin that can be used for throw kills (120%+)
50%/100% of your pikmin that can be used for throw kills at extreme percents (160%+)
100%/100% of your pikmin that can be used for starting combos at low percents
100%/100% of your pikmin that have a reliable grab range
50%/100% of your pikmin that deal 11+ damage from throws
50%/50% of your pikmin that deal 13/14 damage from throws

Smashes
100%/50%of your pikmin that can be used for forward smash kills (120%+)
100%/50% of your pikmin that can be used for more reliable forward smash kills (120%+ and good range)
100%/100% of your pikmin that can be used for up smash kills (120%+)
100%/100% of your pikmin that can be used for down smash kills (120%+)

Aerials
100%/50% of your pikmin that can be used for forward air kills (120%+)
100%/50% of your pikmin that deal 20%+ from up air


Other
0% of your pikmin that are better than others for pikmin toss(purples>white>red/blue/yellow)

The problem is (yes with luck...) I can change my combination, I am also not force to be playing with 2 pikmin. If I feel the need to need more variety I simply wait for my chance to pluck 4 pikmin and work it out from there. When they aren't needed, I toss them away.

Notice a pattern? the Red/Blue combination is definitely good at smashes and aerials, but not as much in grabs. While the vice versa exists, where the the blue/yellow combination is better at grabs than it is smashes/aerials. Look at the damage and kill percentage chart in this thread and you'll see a noticeable lack of reds' ability in grabs, and yellows' in smashes/aerials, as compared to the colors that overshadow them. However, the point of having the previous red/yellow/blue/blue/purple/purple line, is that you arent locked to attacks. The line pretty much covers everything that's important to olimar's game.

While it's more balanced, very rarely will you ever use more then 3 moves consecutively anyways (not counting dthrow > usmash > uair) so while you have a wider variety and it covers most everything, it does not cover everything at once. 4/6th's of your grab KO's are at the END of your line. And your best smash-ko'ing pikmin are 1 in front and 2 in back. So you will be alternating how you are attempting to KO often, and most opponents nowadays know Olimar's pikmins strengths and will avoid certain scenario's depending which pikmin you have. For blue they'll probably try to stay airborne or on platforms, purple they want to be grounded but just spaced out of smash/grab range, etc.

While completely ignoring what I stated (since both 2 and 6 suffer from similiar problems considering what I stated...) I already mentioned 6 pikmin does have its advantages, it also has disadvantages. Same with 2 pikmin.


Blue pikmin are universal and are good at pretty much everything. The other colors? Not so much. Your main focus in playing olimar should not be to "quickly bring up a pikmin at an exact time", but to have the colors fall into place. You act as if latch isn't as important to olimar's game as it actually is. If I have a blue pikmin fourth in line, I may spam the previous three with latch. Not merely to waste the pikmin so the blue will be in front, but to force an approach that will run right into my blue grab. Or say it's red/yellow/purple/blue/red/white, in that order. I may spam the first two from the air, then upon landing, throw the purple after dashing, thus knocking my opponent to the ground for the blue grab that will combo into my red up smash, coming out to around 35%.

The point is to not use pikmin for their best purpose to where it would become predictable, but to have enough pikmin so that you at least have enough options. Another thing to remember, that is very important, is that you wont always be in theposition to do the "best possible option" with a pikmin. That's another reason it's best to try to cover as many options as possible.

I wont say that Olimar with six pikmin is without a doubt better than olimar with two, however I do NOT believe that olimar with two is better than six.[/QUOTE]

tl;dr....... ok I'm kidding..

Yes, but most pikmin can do everything (disregarding white for the most part...the hitstun is far to little.. and... yah you know th ereasons) so whether or not I have 2 or 6, I still have every move. I use 2 rather then 1 so I can still dsmash in both directions and do combo's that just aren't possible with 1 pikmin.

But when I do need a pikmin for its best purpose, its readily avaible for me.

I'm not saying 2 > 6 for a fact, I'm simply stating it does have its advantages. (There are some matchups I use 6 over 2, but there are some matchups where I never have more then 3 pikmin...)

 

[DtJ Hilt]

What I'm saying is that trying to put yourself in a position to use a pikmin isnt always the smartest move. It may be the best option, and if possible you should take it, but other options should not be neglected or seen as inferior. Also, your opponent avoiding your "best possible option" isnt a foil to olimar. they can platform/air camp when I have a blue up, but that doesnt make its aerials any less good. In fact blues are GREAT in the air. The up air and forward air have damage only barely less than reds. And they're good for kills as well. A good way to not be as predictable is to not be so reliant on grabs for kills. It becomes very easy to read and isnt always reliable.

I do see where you're coming from, however. I oftentimes toss away red pikmin, as I find the other colors (except for maybe white) much more useful. And at times while my opponent is at high percents I wont go through the process to pluck too many, especially if my line, although short, is well suited enough to get a kill.

Anyways, I'm done with this
Should probably get some sleep before my posts end up making even less sense lol. Videos would definitely help you in proving your point.

 

[SuSa]

I have some video's I just need to record.

I also want to get more videos before actually writing a huge post on the matter. (Disadvantages (which I'll admit some are rather larger....) and such)

Also whether your have 2 or 6 pikmin your entire first paragraph applies. I can still use w/e pikmin for w/e (and I normally toss my whites at the opponent and pluck another. :3 they'll either kill the pikmin, or I get free damage racked up.... or I missed my toss XD)

I should probably get some sleep to and just wait til I have more videos. Ones with me with 6 pikmin (so people can tell me WTF I'm doing wrong, because that may be influencing my judgement of 2 pikmin being better) and others with me playing with 2 pikmin. (Some cases 0 or 1 after a while...lol)

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Also, when I first read your posts I had the mindset of you being another random person trying to say olimar with one or two pikmin is amazing >.> They get pretty annoying.

However, considering you've put out a lot into your posts, maybe it's something I'll start trying out more lol. And if you do get videos up I'd like to see them. As well as if you have any more input on it

/bed

 

[kirbywizard]

How do purple pikmin work for pushing away the enemy. I use it a lot, I feel my enemy gets to use to the regular pikmin so every now and then I throw a purple pikmin, they usually do not see the difference or something like that and get hit. If they spot dodge the purple pikmin goes slow enough to still hit ( well I think for most spot dodge). Should I keep doing this or is it mostly useless.

 

[SuSa]

Not amazing, but I feel some of the advantages (which in some cases are just plain out matchup dependant) make it worth it.

I'd still never go against a Meta Knight with 2 pikmin, that's just suicide.

Just try it out in friendlies, and don't remain STRICT to it - that's just stupidity. If you need a few more for a while, do so.

I'll get some vids up by the end of the week hopefully. Need to charge my camera's batteries and get C. Falcon frame data finished.

Also I lurk... like everywhere. /read my sig -- So it's not often that I'm a scrub at a character, unless I've been ignoring that board for a while.

Good night. Also 1 pikmin is just pointless (however fun it could be) as I cannot think of a single advantage that is worth all of the many disadvantages you get from it.

So no, one pikmin is not amazing.

If I ever feel like making my super-big post about 2 pikmin I will. But I'll just post videos soon instead. lol

^ hits enter to much

EDIT:

Kirby, don't change whats working. Just note that some opponents (mostly those who actually know the matchup) won't fall for that as often. When it stops working, stop doing it.

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

Good night. Also 1 pikmin is just pointless (however fun it could be) as I cannot think of a single advantage that is worth all of the many disadvantages you get from it.

So no, one pikmin is not amazing.

OH NO YOU DIDN'T!!!​

Say my fellow Olimars if I buy a SD card can I then upload them to Youtube and such? And if not someone tell me so I can write a very lengthy retort. >=D

 

[DtJ Hilt]

No. You're going to need some kind of recording equipment to record it, not just an SD card.

Spoiler

This is exactly what I was talking about SuSa >.<

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

No. You're going to need some kind of recording equipment to record it, not just an SD card.

Spoiler

This is exactly what I was talking about SuSa >.<

Is there any threads on these boards to help me find out methods for recording?

Spoiler

Awesome! My wayward ways have been acknowledged!

 

[Dyyne]

I should probably get some sleep to and just wait til I have more videos. Ones with me with 6 pikmin (so people can tell me WTF I'm doing wrong, because that may be influencing my judgement of 2 pikmin being better) and others with me playing with 2 pikmin. (Some cases 0 or 1 after a while...lol)

Yeah, that would be a good idea. It's probable that you are locked in a mindset that you do worse with six, which could influence your gameplay with them. These points you bring up are reasonable, but for purposes of playing oli to his fullest (which is much more defensive), two pikmin is just not as valid. Although if you are more aggressive, like you said you are, I can see how having two would not be as detrimental, and even possibly advantageous

No. You're going to need some kind of recording equipment to record it, not just an SD card.

Spoiler

This is exactly what I was talking about SuSa >.<

Actually, Hilt, he was talking about (and invented) Unolimar long before you came to the oli boards, so he's not just some annoying random...he's the ******* that started it all!!!!!!
jk ....but not really.

 

[SuSa]

No. You're going to need some kind of recording equipment to record it, not just an SD card.

Spoiler

This is exactly what I was talking about SuSa >.<

AFAIK he was here before you.

I'm simply staying I can see absolutely no advantage to having 1 pikmin over 2 or 6.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

lol yeah i remember his posts from months ago. He called it Onelimar back then though xD

haha okay, i'm gonna stop posting now so i'll look less like a **** ^.^;

Spoiler

wouldnt wanna end up like fino :x

 

[Fino]

Spoiler

wouldnt wanna end up like fino :x

I haven't been showing up here as much anymore... less people to be a **** too; That or people aren't being as dumb as they used to be. Besides... I lost the skill to back up the **** I was saying, so I've been focusing more on that XD


~Fino

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

WARNING! WALL OF TEXT FILLED WITH OLIMAR GOODNESS!

Awwwwww! I feel so acknowledged! How I love our little Olimar community! It has been far too long since I visited here. Anywho dispite the issue that I cannot provide video evidence I'll spare a little time to supply a bit of logic to my generally aberrant rants.


---


Point one, line management. We do this in order to use the pikmin we wish for the purpose we desire, mainly to string together constructed combos and discard those we don't want for latch damage etc. While I have no problem with this at all, it is getting the pikmin I want in without the wait, when you want a yellow three down in an exact moment tough luck. You either whistle or use your Pikmin related attacks.

But nay you might say! This be better than an Unolimars total lack of line management! For he is predictable due to only having a single Pikmin. Yes, but you can change this Pikmin at any time. By Pluck Canceling some very nice mind games can comennce, for no one can predict what is going to be plucked out! So line management can give you choice, but the lack of a line gives you the choice of being un/predictable.

---



Point two, you MUST recover! A single Pikmin gives ol' Oli an unexpected edgegame. Just check out the magnet latch effect on that UP+B! Talk about planking! Combine this with the silent plucking ledge Mc thingy and you have one heck of a class act. When you have six pikmin is becomes risky buisness to go for the spike, if you miss and they get the ledge and your second jump doesn't make it, you will most likly knock them off with ya UP+B and tumble to your death. No one outruns a Unolimar to a ledge, LOOK AT THE SPEED OF THAT THING! Even if they manage to get to it before you it will allow you to harmlessly bop over their heads and land onto the stage.

While I have seen a couple of nifty Olimar edge stealing, the best I've seen is that ol' Uair then Pikmin chain yoink. Well a Unolimar has a very similar thingy which he can do with great surprise to my opponents from above or below is a similar strategy involving that GODLY nair! If you time that beast right from above do catch them with the end of it (so you can UP+B quicker and can help counter any surprise tatics due to your attack) for the steal. Similar things can be done from below.

I'm sure Susu might know about how oddly good his edgegame can be, but I can't see the purpose of two Pikmin. When haunting those offstage you want to recover as FAST as possible, so throwing away 2 Pikmin takes longer than 1. And when your falling and with the lighting quick magnet with a limited area of effect every moment counts.



---



Point three, while this is more of a counter point, the Pikmin side B (I'll call it this so not to confuse readers with Oli's throws). I understand this is a great worry to those who try to understand Unolimar. How can he be proficient without it? I do understand it is good, in fact I feel it was too good. It was the whole reason I began this somewhat questionable journey. So first of all, Unolimar is limited to only standard attacks when my pikmin is away correct? Yes! And that is why the Pikmin Chuck still works. Rather than using many Pikmin chucks combined with long grabs mixed with restrained throws Unolimar style is based around on pure unrelenting attacks. Not having to worry at all by line management or spacing when they get a Pikmin on them Olimars WONDERFUL tilts and Nair all have something in common; they have very little knock back. up tilts/ down tilts with nairs can be used senseless while a Pikmin also racks up the damage.

Think of it rather as a tool that encourages the opponent against running rather than Olimar as a devout of spacing. I don't use it that often so as a result it often unexpected, in particular canceled plucking. On a little note I tend to use it on my opponents fresh stocks, since they will not be sent as far via my standard attacks AND Pikmin latch on longer on lower %.


---




Point four, the whistle. I boggles me, my fellow Olimars can't understand how broken this really is? It is fast, spamable, and somewhat distracting. My Unolimar can quite often live into the 200% with this amazing tool. It is insane. One drawback is.... that is will disturb your line management. Also just for flashy combos use (for the sake of future references) Wairs! Or rather Whistled Nairs, whistle followed by nairs looks oh so flashy BUT also as we know calls back Pikmin. Often when playing as Unolimar the Pikmin will be attacking or concurrently latched. Not only can you take an attack, you will return an attack and RETURN your Pikmin ready for more combo treats. Wairs are great when the opponent is directly below you (quite a sore spot of olimar) and is most certainly deadly in certain situations.


--



Real quick point since I'm now out of tea Point 5. Simply Pikmin have good to decent knockback on ALL of their moves, which is great for the knockout AND distincing the opponent (6Pik Oli's). Unolimar the smashes and airs are certainly freshed up via standard attacks (by using standards I think the logic goes that his standards knockback is slightly reduced and his smashes remain untouched) means that you can knockout with ease at lower %'s. So more combos finshed of generally with a nice fresh Up Smash.

I have just noticed how long this post is, so I'll leave my other points for later. Questions welcome and in summary, think of it as a offensive Olimar. I hope this will prove that there are some advantages to this unorthadox style of playing Olimar.

 

[SuSa]

WARNING! WALL OF TEXT FILLED WITH OLIMAR GOODNESS!

Point one, line management. We do this in order to use the pikmin we wish for the purpose we desire, mainly to string together constructed combos and discard those we don't want for latch damage etc. While I have no problem with this at all, it is getting the pikmin I want in without the wait, when you want a yellow three down in an exact moment tough luck. You either whistle or use your Pikmin related attacks.

Then you have the problem of lack of variety. What if you need a Purple but just can't seem to pluck one? This is the one fallback to having 1-2 pikmin. You lack variety.

But nay you might say! This be better than an Unolimars total lack of line management! For he is predictable due to only having a single Pikmin. Yes, but you can change this Pikmin at any time. By Pluck Canceling some very nice mind games can comennce, for no one can predict what is going to be plucked out! So line management can give you choice, but the lack of a line gives you the choice of being un/predictable.

You can also change 2 pikmin at any time. You also risk getting a white (I've done a PC'd white fsmash. Totally. Useless.) or falling just short with a purple.

This can also be done with 2 pikmin just as easily, and I get additional bonuses such as 2 sided dsmashes and combo chains that REQUIRE 2 pikmin because 1 is to slow.

Point two, you MUST recover! A single Pikmin gives ol' Oli an unexpected edgegame. Just check out the magnet latch effect on that UP+B! Talk about planking! Combine this with the silent plucking ledge Mc thingy and you have one heck of a class act. When you have six pikmin is becomes risky buisness to go for the spike, if you miss and they get the ledge and your second jump doesn't make it, you will most likly knock them off with ya UP+B and tumble to your death. No one outruns a Unolimar to a ledge, LOOK AT THE SPEED OF THAT THING! Even if they manage to get to it before you it will allow you to harmlessly bop over their heads and land onto the stage.

However when to far to recover, you have no stage-spike option and if you don't have a purple you aren't knocking your opponent off that ledge. At least with 2 I have 1 more pikmin that may be a Purple to knock them off.

While I have seen a couple of nifty Olimar edge stealing, the best I've seen is that ol' Uair then Pikmin chain yoink. Well a Unolimar has a very similar thingy which he can do with great surprise to my opponents from above or below is a similar strategy involving that GODLY nair! If you time that beast right from above do catch them with the end of it (so you can UP+B quicker and can help counter any surprise tatics due to your attack) for the steal. Similar things can be done from below.

Can be doen with 2 pikmin as well.

I'm sure Susu might know about how oddly good his edgegame can be, but I can't see the purpose of two Pikmin. When haunting those offstage you want to recover as FAST as possible, so throwing away 2 Pikmin takes longer than 1. And when your falling and with the lighting quick magnet with a limited area of effect every moment counts.

SuSa, not Susu.

Throwing 2 pikmin barely takes more time then 1. I have 1 more pikmin that may be a purple to knock them off the edge. While it comes with a small frame disadvantage (throwing 2 pikmin not 1) it comes with the advantage of having a better chance of having a purple. Also most times when I am recovering I only have 1 pikmin alive or none anyways. So that's not a good disclaimer for my 2 pikmin.

Point three, while this is more of a counter point, the Pikmin side B (I'll call it this so not to confuse readers with Oli's throws). I understand this is a great worry to those who try to understand Unolimar. How can he be proficient without it? I do understand it is good, in fact I feel it was too good. It was the whole reason I began this somewhat questionable journey. So first of all, Unolimar is limited to only standard attacks when my pikmin is away correct? Yes! And that is why the Pikmin Chuck still works. Rather than using many Pikmin chucks combined with long grabs mixed with restrained throws Unolimar style is based around on pure unrelenting attacks. Not having to worry at all by line management or spacing when they get a Pikmin on them Olimars WONDERFUL tilts and Nair all have something in common; they have very little knock back. up tilts/ down tilts with nairs can be used senseless while a Pikmin also racks up the damage.

Wait until you just get OUTSPACED by someone like Snake. Utilt/ftilt ***** every single approach a solo Olimar has. He can easily knock off that single latched pikmin, and you'd have to PC to defend yourself. Having 2, I can latch with 1 and still defend myself/grab with the other. Yet another advantage of having 2 over 1. Since I can still rely on standard attacks.

Point four, the whistle. I boggles me, my fellow Olimars can't understand how broken this really is? It is fast, spamable, and somewhat distracting. My Unolimar can quite often live into the 200% with this amazing tool. It is insane. One drawback is.... that is will disturb your line management. Also just for flashy combos use (for the sake of future references) Wairs! Or rather Whistled Nairs, whistle followed by nairs looks oh so flashy BUT also as we know calls back Pikmin. Often when playing as Unolimar the Pikmin will be attacking or concurrently latched. Not only can you take an attack, you will return an attack and RETURN your Pikmin ready for more combo treats. Wairs are great when the opponent is directly below you (quite a sore spot of olimar) and is most certainly deadly in certain situations.

We know how broken it really is, and it can be used by any Olimar main to live into the 200%'s. The drawback is it messes up your line - but a good Olimar main can live due with that. It's not THAT big of a deal.

I wouldn't call this a pro or a con...

Real quick point since I'm now out of tea Point 5. Simply Pikmin have good to decent knockback on ALL of their moves, which is great for the knockout AND distincing the opponent (6Pik Oli's). Unolimar the smashes and airs are certainly freshed up via standard attacks (by using standards I think the logic goes that his standards knockback is slightly reduced and his smashes remain untouched) means that you can knockout with ease at lower %'s. So more combos finshed of generally with a nice fresh Up Smash.

A good Olimar main doesn't forget about standard attacks, or they'll mix up their attacks enough to freshen up their KO moves. Another moot point.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Not to mention that latch freshes attacks as well. Not just nair or tilts. I'm going to do some tests with whistle to check how many frames it takes pikmin to reorganize depending on where they are in line, and how many you have. 2+ pikmin i can see having a purpose at certain times in a match. One pikmin... not really. Not to mention most of the things you mentioned were either not that big of a deal to where it would be better than the options (and camping benefits) you get from having more than one, or the points were things you can still do with more pikmin in general.

 

[SuSa]

2 is only good for like 1/2 the matchups or less.

However I think I simply prefer it because:

Me + camping as Olimar = Epic Failure

I found out that's why I hate having 6 pikmin. I can't camp with Olimar.

 

[Noa.]

So, I just picked up Olimar yesterday, and I have some questions and thoughts that I want to be confirmed.

1. A problem I have is when I want to decide between the best option in a situation overall or the best option with the pikmin next in line. Like when I have a blue next in line. I think to myself that the best option should be grab. But when I attempt to grab I get punished when I know that I could've used another option. Should I just focus on the best way to deal with a situation overall or plan for the next pikmin. Though I do fell like knowing the order of the line and then planning ahead of time would be best, I can't always do it.

2. Are whites more or less useless? They have absolutely pathetic knockback and damage. When I get one, should I just immediately throw it at my opponent without fear of losing any good opportunity. Is it character dependent?

4. This was in the OP, but what is the best neutral for Olimar? I can't be Lylat because in my area it's counterpick. And Olimar's best counterpick? Again, Luigi's Mansion is banned here.

5. Between Olimar's bad matchups of Peach, Luigi and MK, do any of them require secondaries?

6. Last, I'm trying to pick the correct costume color. For me it's either Silver or Red. The silver looks extremely cool while the red seems ore sexy and fierce. Personal preference, which do you think is better?

EDIT: Also, who are the best Olimar players from which regions? The video thread is a little lacking so I want to make sure that I'm watching some quality players.

 

[BlackWaltzX]

1. Just play normally unless it's purple or white until you get a bit better.
2. Toss the white or grab. When you grab, do jabs till the enemy escapes.
4. I'd say go with Battlefield. My personal is Yoshi's. Counterpick? Depends. I'd go with Halbred.
5. Olimar can beat anyone.
6. Out of the two? I only use red in teams and have the nametag "Disco" for it. I usually get my partner to be "Fever".
EDIT: A lot.


MYEDIT:: I don't believe Duplex was the first Unolimar.
Maybe the first one to post about it?