Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

[Exdeath]

*shrug*

regardless of the skill deficit i could still take games from him regardless of ruleset and the inclusion of no LGLs did not give me That much more of an advantage.

In that case I apologize.

 

[IL3X]

While just looking at Apex alone it isn't by itself enough to draw conclusions but i think the anti-ban group is right about being...well anti-ban. At the risk of repeating what has already been said Japan showed we have so much left to learn just through this one tourny and it's sad. Our (American) metagame is totally reliant on gimmicks (super-planking, everybody's got or has had a chain grab, using the top-tier as a crutch) that we're cheating our selves out of the evolution that a stagnant metagame needs. I forget which video but the commentators spoke on Brood and Nietono and how Rain believed that Brood was barely able to look at Nietono and M2k our second or third best in the nation gets bodied by him at the last Apex that should've woken someone up. Then M2k gets danced on by Ocean and then Rich Brown??? Why are we not scraping the idea of a ban right now when we couldn't even hold down the fort in our home country? People should learn to stick to characters they like and learn to grow as players. Do you think Nietono would have mastered Olimar as quickly if his country had taken the easy way out and banned MK? Also my homeboy Fushi plays Ness and he bodies Mks left and right

 

[Kink-Link5]

I still don't think Apex changes anything. Japan was always better than the rest of the world since I doubt within the 5 month period of MK's soft-ban Japan suddenly skyrocketed in its metagame.

Banning Metaknight won't stagnate a Metagame that is already stagnated. It's confusing Correlation with Causation to say it would.

The status of Metaknight's legality has nothing to do with the rate at which the two metagames developed and diverged and everything to do with the individual rulesets the two countries have.

It's extremely speculative to guess what would happen if a US player were given free reign to unlimited ledge grabs and schrooging that is only "looked down upon" in Japan, but it's something that the Barwl community in America saw as necessary to deal with, just as the Japanese community decided to deal with stages and the timer. When the players came to America, the ruleset differences are most likely the cause of dissonance between "player skill." I am personally of the opinion that M2K and Tearbear would have no trouble against the Japanese players under their ruleset, because it isn't made to deal with the tactics the American scene has made, just as ours isn't made to deal with theirs.

 

[Orion*]

why tearbear...

@ exdeath

i do generally agree with you no offense is taken, im just laying down what has happened in tournament factually.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Or Plank or aliens with a time machine whatever **** you.

Tear was the most ******** player I could think of.

 

[Orion*]

I just disagree because the "tactics" the japanese players are using is just solid play. There's no cat in the box trick or something, so it's not like we will get better vs them by magically changing situations or rulesets, and imo it's this kind of mentality that made a lot of america lose so bad in the first place.

 

[theunabletable]

This is relevant to the MK ban, in that it discusses things very related to what the detriments of a forced change like this could cause on the community, and how people feel about it and such: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13983020#post13983020

 

[Hylian]

Tell me the amount of significant tournaments in the past few years that had no LGL installed. Ironically the only one that did didnt have MK legal, and there where multiple issues, hylian got planked by esca also iirc.

.

Not esca. The only person I've lost to because of planking was Esam at whobo3.

 

[Orion*]

Not esca. The only person I've lost to because of planking was Esam at whobo3.

Ah sorry excuse me I mixed them up. Either way that was the same tournament no? O_o
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=12390578#post12390578

 

[Hylian]

Ah sorry excuse me I mixed them up. Either way that was the same tournament no? O_o
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=12390578#post12390578

Yeah that was the same tournament. Esam planked me because he lost to Ally's IC's at pound.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

In a short opinion, I find MK to be op in doubles but not op in singles especially after what I saw had happened to US players at Apex

 

[Kink-Link5]

I don't see what a Japanese Metaknight winning a U.S. tournament has anything to do with the discussion of MK's Legality.

 

[Kimidori]

I don't see what a Japanese Metaknight winning a U.S. tournament has anything to do with the discussion of MK's Legality.

I don't see why you can't go back and look at previous posts.

 

[The Ben]

I don't see why you can't go back and look at previous posts.

I don't see why you don't see why Kink-Link5 can't go back and look at previous posts.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Okay, the vaguely defined "previous posts" shed no light on my statement, so thank you for the cynicism.

 

[Kimidori]

Okay, the vaguely defined "previous posts" shed no light on my statement, so thank you for the cynicism.

I'll just say it again. The fact Meta Knight's ban has been brought up again is IN ROOTS, because of Apex. Why because of Apex? Because it gave us a little chance to look at the Japanese players. At Apex 2012, it was quite obvious that Japan was better (I say this because they brought a guy who has never won a tourney in Japan over and he won against all of us Americans, and don't make me explain other reasons). Japan is better than us, and their best players are Olimar and IC's players. The fact that they could come over to America and obliterate many of our top players (basically the top of the top) is nothing that should fall on deaf ears. If you look at Japan, they have great players of all different character variety. Meta Knight is no where near "broken" in Japan. But, if you look at America, people consider him broken. What are the differences between Japan and America (or at least the important ones)? The stages, and the timer. They have only Neutral stages. We have "counterpicks". Counterpicks are able to give a totally polar advantage to one player. Meta Knight is great on any stage, so he doesn't have any "counterpicks". But, he can abuse counterpicks to play on ANY stage that his opponent's character will be bad on. It's that simple. Also, they have a longer timer so timeouts don't happen as often. They have changed the rules to focus completely on player skill instead of gimmicks or cheap ways to win.

Just pointing out, also, at Apex, the Japanese would often go back to the stage they lost on to see what went wrong, and often would win that match.

 

[AlphaZealot]

was used all the time in NJ/NY there was no LGL and even with teh spammer planking people at events there was never any really high ledge grab counts.

You are going to have to back this up with some evidence. I've never once seen a TO say they told someone to "stop stalling" or else. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it was mumbled in the background of some locals or something, but I know when it really mattered, at tournaments like Genesis where it was brought up with Dojo v Larry, and at COT4 where teh spammer supposedly stalled a **** ton yet it was also not enforced. Especailly in the Genesis example, the "no stalling" rule was completely useless and the tournament got delayed by almost an hour while everyone argued over what was considered stalling - which makes sense since the rule is so poor.

The only way the rule works is if the TO has the guts to step up and tell a player to stop "stalling", by whatever arbitrary definition the TO wants to use, but when I brought up doing this over a year ago everyone basically said that it was impossible since the TO could not watch all matches at once and it was unfair because the TO opinion is arbitrary and not clearly defined and finally, they argued that all forms of 'stalling' were beatable.

I would be okay with the rule probably more so if the community could be OK with a TO making an executive decision on when someone is stalling, but I've caught flak just for DQing top players for being late (meanwhile people complain when people aren't DQ'd, go figure), so it is really a lose-lose situation no matter how you slice it (actually this lose-lose applies to like, almost everything in Smash/with the community, no matter what you do there will be at least a decent sized group of people to complain).

I'll just say it again. The fact Meta Knight's ban has been brought up again is IN ROOTS, because of Apex. Why because of Apex? Because it gave us a little chance to look at the Japanese players. At Apex 2012, it was quite obvious that Japan was better (I say this because they brought a guy who has never won a tourney in Japan over and he won against all of us Americans, and don't make me explain other reasons). Japan is better than us, and their best players are Olimar and IC's players. The fact that they could come over to America and obliterate many of our top players (basically the top of the top) is nothing that should fall on deaf ears. If you look at Japan, they have great players of all different character variety. Meta Knight is no where near "broken" in Japan. But, if you look at America, people consider him broken. What are the differences between Japan and America (or at least the important ones)? The stages, and the timer. They have only Neutral stages. We have "counterpicks". Counterpicks are able to give a totally polar advantage to one player. Meta Knight is great on any stage, so he doesn't have any "counterpicks". But, he can abuse counterpicks to play on ANY stage that his opponent's character will be bad on. It's that simple. Also, they have a longer timer so timeouts don't happen as often. They have changed the rules to focus completely on player skill instead of gimmicks or cheap ways to win.

Don't use Inui logic. Their player who "hasn't won a tournament" won Apex. Okay. Our player who hasn't won a national (1v1) was our top placing player while our 2nd best (m2k) sat at 13th and Ally only top 8. Second, 'obliterate' and all these other words that have been thrown around since Apex are just exaggerations. A hit here or there and Nairo could have gotten 1st and he isn't even our best MK. In a double elimination bracket a lot can happen. At a tournament where the most important matches are getting played starting at around 10PM at night after 2 full days of Smashing and 10+ hours already a lot can happen. Every contest that has ever occurred between Japan and the US prior to Apex had the US come out on top, now all of a sudden people think we have to reinvent the wheel because of one tournament, where, by the way, their players who DO win tournaments failed to win (which is a pointless point, as I've already called out the Inui logic here).

I guess my point is: stop exaggerating. Japan won. It was one tournament, with a lot of factors, and there is no reason to think they are somehow exponentially better than the US. Maybe slightly better, but this talk like the US somehow got annihilated? Also, because people love to gloss over it - MK did get first.

 

[Gea]

DQing needs to happen far, far more. **** special treatment of players unless it's really weird/important circumstances like a car crash. Not "I got hungry and wandered off like a *****"

 

[Kuro~]

ya i lol'd when anti got DQ'd at apex

 

[Hylian]

. Maybe slightly better, but this talk like the US somehow got annihilated?

People are saying the US got annihilated because of how the japanese preformed against ALL of our top players, not just a select few in bracket. A lot of money matches went down, I sat behind ocean and watched him beat Rich Brown in a $10 money match. Most of our top players money matched the japanese for $10 or more and lost badly. I also watched Rain and Otori both consistently beat m2k in mk dittos. I watched Ocean beat top mks here with rob, including tearbear and m2k in tournament. It wasn't a fluke. I watched nietono beat pretty much every single one of our top players in friendlies and money matches.

I don't recall seeing you there, but the skill difference was obvious based on a lot more than just the bracket. They weren't just beating our best players in every aspect they were beating them BADLY. When was the last time you saw ally get 3-0'ed? By anyone? Nairo doing well against Otori is the only example of any of our top players doing even remotely well against the Japanese.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

DQing needs to happen far, far more. **** special treatment of players unless it's really weird/important circumstances like a car crash. Not "I got hungry and wandered off like a *****"

I agree wholeheartedly. We don't have time to let people waste because they think that the tournament will stop for them without so much as checking to see if they have time to be somewhere else.

 

[Karnu]

I don't know what to think. I have only been to one tourney and MK pretty much just won, but I did look at the Apex results and for now I will let the ban slide becuase I wanna see how diffrent results will be for now.

People are saying the US got annihilated because of how the japanese preformed against ALL of our top players, not just a select few in bracket. A lot of money matches went down, I sat behind ocean and watched him beat Rich Brown in a $10 money match. Most of our top players money matched the japanese for $10 or more and lost badly. I also watched Rain and Otori both consistently beat m2k in mk dittos. I watched Ocean beat top mks here with rob, including tearbear and m2k in tournament. It wasn't a fluke. I watched nietono beat pretty much every single one of our top players in friendlies and money matches.

I don't recall seeing you there, but the skill difference was obvious based on a lot more than just the bracket. They weren't just beating our best players in every aspect they were beating them BADLY. When was the last time you saw ally get 3-0'ed? By anyone? Nairo doing well against Otori is the only example of any of our top players doing even remotely well against the Japanese.

I found this post interesting & its amazing how it sounds like the the US is no match for Japan, It also makes me curious how Australia could preform at APEX, But my question is could this be a fluck? Like could they have of taken avantage of how MK is broken? Do you think next APEX will see some very diffrent results?

 

[Cassio]

I heavily agree about the DQs too. I do know some locals would DQ people for stalling if the matches were saved.

Nairo
-Otori
-Nietono

ESAM
-Otori
-Nietono

Ally
-Otori
-Nietono

Ultimate Razer
-Ally
-ESAM

DEHF
-Otori
-Nietono

ADHD
-Ultimate Razer
-Nietono

Gnes
-DEHF
-ESAM

Rich Brown
-Ultimate Razer
-Ultimate Razer

Dabuz
-Rain
-Gnes

Rain
-ESAM
-DEHF

Brood
-Ally
-ADHD

Mew2king
-Ocean
-Rich Brown

Havok
-Nairo
-Gnes

Fatal
-Nietono
-Dabuz

Zero
-Kakera
-Rich Brown

Mike
-Will
-ADHD

Mr. R
-Ocean
-Brood

Orion
-Kakera
-Rain

Shugo
-Nairo
-DEHF

Atomsk
-Havok ?
-Shugo

Will
-Fatal
-Orion

Siebrik
-Mew2king
-Mr. R

Reflex
-Kakera
-Mike

Tyrant
-ADHD
-Rich Brown

Zex
-Gnes :Diddy:
-Z

Jtails
-Rich Brown
-Dabuz

Coney
-Otori
-Gnes

Leon
-Trela
-Gnes

Poltergust
-Zex
-Gnes

Logic
-ESAM
-jtails

Trela
-Brood
-Z

Bloodcross
-Otori
-Zex

Holy
-Logic
-Rich Brown

Denti
-Rain
-Tyrant

Illmatic
-Nietono
-Reflex

Dojo
-Trevonte
-DRN

X
-Nakat
-Illmatic

This is most of the top players who made bracket. I know there were notables who didnt make bracket but Im not sure who they lost too. I dunno, almost everyone that lost to an MK lost to a japanese MK (with an exceptionally high chance of that MK being Otori). Otherwise our best players werent losing to MK at all. American MKs didnt do well at this event in the context of the bracket (although making bracket is definitely an achievement). Also the character that was doing the most damage on the losers side of the bracket was olimar. When I look at this I dont see an MK problem I see that our players still have a long way to go towards improving their skill because MK isnt whats holding any of these players back.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

For the record: Zero / Orion outplaced all american MKs minus M2K, Ally and Nairo. At the very least that gives the stances of international scenes [who are almost exclusively anti-ban] a lot more credibility because USA used to ride the "our MKs are teh brokz teh world dun even kno" bogus for years. Now that this is proven wrong I think it's time to realize that the USA has to be doing something wrong concerning the MK issue.

 

[Omni]

Also, because people love to gloss over it - MK did get first.

No one is glossing over this. MK did get first.

However, it was a Japanese MK. On top of that, most of the American MK's did not perform nearly as well. Thus, we have a region that effectively has one of the best performing MK's in the world and there are two non-MK players (Nietono/9B) who are considered better than him. So we're trying to ban MK in the US when our MK's aren't even at the highest caliber they could be. This is so backwards.

MK is not a problem.

 

[zmx]

For the record: Zero / Orion outplaced all american MKs minus M2K, Ally and Nairo. At the very least that gives the stances of international scenes [who are almost exclusively anti-ban] a lot more credibility because USA used to ride the "our MKs are teh brokz teh world dun even kno" bogus for years. Now that this is proven wrong I think it's time to realize that the USA has to be doing something wrong concerning the MK issue.

Ally=Canada

Therefore only two American MKs outplaced Orion and Zero.

 

[Orion*]

You are going to have to back this up with some evidence.

My evidence is clearly personal experience. If not believing me is enough, ask Inui as he held most of the regional events in 08 that I attended, he would have been the best source of information. Maybe Keitaro he definitely helped a lot with events iirc.

As for COT4 I know for a fact that spam attempted to plank HRNUT but lost anyway LOL. He beat anther game 3 on delfino from sharking. There where issues with him on Norfair iirc but like the fact that the stage was legal was a big issue in and by itself.

Like, I timed out dark peach there by just spamming nado from top to top platform since peachs air options vs it suck, LMAO.

 

[Thino]

I've already told you guys that you wouldn't be able to convince pro-bans just by saying "Japan won Apex" as they don't claim Japan's superiority to be the only reason why they wanted MK banned.

In addition to that, they can minimize Apex as being one tournament.

STALLING however, needs to be enforced more, as in, TOs that believe stalling is a problem at their tournaments need to give a clear idea of what is considered stalling and what is not.

That or the no stalling rule needs to be removed completely if it's really too ambiguous.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Stalling is pretty clearly defined as the things which cause the game to be utterly unplayable. Things like Sonic's homing stall, or IDC. There's no rule that says you can't run away the whole match.

 

[DMG]

IDC is covered by it's own rule. Planking is trying to be covered with a LGL/Scrooging Rule/Ground time rule.

 

[Thino]

IDC is covered by it's own rule. Planking is trying to be covered with a LGL/Scrooging Rule/Ground time rule.

Does planking make the game unplayable?

 

[Omni]

I think people just love to complain.

Apex was the epitome of Brawl at the highest level of play. Was there anything to actually complain or worry about when watching the Top 16 play? Absolutely not. You could argue to have a more condensed/vast stagelist, but in regards to characters, stalling, or abuse of any techniques I'd say none were present.

 

[DMG]

You had some sharking going on, and someone said Otori scrooged a bit. Wasn't like everyone approached or abandoned the strength known as MK mobility lol. You're gonna have to absolutely make sure that there's no possible way MK can get a win through timeout or abusing any tiny little thing to accomplish that goal if you want people to truly be happy about it imo.

 

[Kuro~]

Japan has the rule where you can only fly under the stage once and then have to touch ground.

 

[Exdeath]

As for COT4 I know for a fact that spam attempted to plank HRNUT but lost anyway LOL.

HRNut also lost at Genesis 2 from Havok and Tear Bear timing him out with . I don't recall whether or not planking was involved, though.

 

[Omni]

You had some sharking going on, and someone said Otori scrooged a bit. Wasn't like everyone approached or abandoned the strength known as MK mobility lol. You're gonna have to absolutely make sure that there's no possible way MK can get a win through timeout or abusing any tiny little thing to accomplish that goal if you want people to truly be happy about it imo.

True happiness doesn't exist when the best character is within the same realm. Haters gonna' hate.

- Sharking: Ban sharking stages or blame your character that you can't deal with it.
- Scrooging: Never happened at any level of extremity, and usually never does at the highest level of play.

I mean we can argue the "possibilities" of many characters exploiting something about Brawl's extremely open physics, but it's definitely becoming a stretch when people are saying things like, "MK can get 1 hit and run away for 8 minutes! BROKEN."

 

[Kuro~]

HRNut also lost at Genesis 2 from Havok and Tear Bear timing him out with . I don't recall whether or not planking was involved, though.

Hrnut was so y about it lol.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Kakera totally scrooged me for Squirtle and Charizard's stocks.

 

[Kuro~]

And to be fair anti never got to compete cuz he was DQ'd

@wholeinternationalthing

 

[Orion*]

You had some sharking going on, and someone said Otori scrooged a bit.

Nietono also threw pikmin at me. It was gay because when I tried to him them off he was always zoning and could hit me

HRNut also lost at Genesis 2 from Havok and Tear Bear timing him out with . I don't recall whether or not planking was involved, though.

There was a 35 LGL in place.

Kakera totally scrooged me for Squirtle and Charizard's stocks.

Like. You play a character that gets worse killing wise as the timer goes on what do you want him to do LMAO.

And to be fair anti never got to compete cuz he was DQ'd

@wholeinternationalthing

He wasn't DQed IIRC.