Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

[xDD-Master]

Because there is no effective limit that may be put on the character (at least, none yet found) without either not actually fixing the issue or affecting members of the cast that are innocent.

I mean, are you in favor of an MK only LGL? And if so, why hasn't the LGL stopped MKs from doing what they love to do? What other limitations do you propose?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=306073

DD, I think you should read these two posts to figure out why everyone thinks Metaknight's limits are so sketchy, and why we shouldn't be using them in the first place:

EDC/IDC: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12298862&postcount=135

LGLs: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13376599&postcount=102

I read them, and I still cant find ANYTHING related to why it is bad to limit a character.
I'm sry, I tried, but they only list the flaws of limits. But there still is no line about why this is necessarily bad.

 

[Gea]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=306073

And people poked two major holes in this:

1. It is possible that a match goes to time when not intentionally going for a timeout and the MK loses just because he is using MK.
2. A large minority of matches go to time, so this wouldn't "cure" the problems with the character being too good. It would only stop timeouts but bring other issues to the table with it.

and as a minor note, several MUs best strategies will be to force MK to approach them or just run away the entire match. As in a Diddy is sitting there with a banana. The Diddy is a stock behind. The MK still has to approach.

At this point, wouldn't it be just as "fair" to force the MK player to use a control scheme that doesn't allow special attacks? Map the "B" button to something else and call it a day? That would nerf him! He still has glide, so he can still recover. What's the big deal?

Except then the people who do remain playing MK are playing a different game than the other players. You're admitting that MK is indeed too good to play under the normal ruleset and thus he is now playing in a game where he is the only character in the game 100% forced to approach regardless of how much he is dominating the match.

Honestly if you think this is viable and no one else really agrees with you, it is time to host your own events and prove otherwise. The general feeling I am getting, and most responses in that thread were that this rule does not directly stop MK domination, but only stops his ability to time out other players and as such can lead towards unfair losses to the person playing MK even if timeouts were not their intention.

 

[WindMajor]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=306073




I read them, and I still cant find ANYTHING related to why it is bad to limit a character.
I'm sry, I tried, but they only list the flaws of limits. But there still is no line about why this is necessarily bad.

I don't particularly have an opinion when it comes to limiting vs. banning when limiting can be done right. All I know is that limiting cannot be done right in this particular scenario, therefore I am against it.

 

[Kimidori]

I don't particularly have an opinion when it comes to limiting vs. banning when limiting can be done right. All I know is that limiting cannot be done right in this particular scenario, therefore I am against it.

But why is limiting not able to be done right when we're trying to balance out the game? Limits would be easier with less stages ;D

Meta Knight is going to be the best character no matter WHAT we do. It's not like we're trying to make it so he's not the best, and if we are, we're hopelessly trying for an unreal goal. We're just trying to tone it down a bit so he's just a little more fair for the others. And keeping ugly counterpicks won't help us one bit. When you think about it, he's not THAT far ahead of the rest of the cast. If he was, he would've been banned a long time ago.

 

[Gea]

But why is limiting not able to be done right when we're trying to balance out the game? Limits would be easier with less stages ;D

Meta Knight is going to be the best character no matter WHAT we do. It's not like we're trying to make it so he's not the best, and if we are, we're hopelessly trying for an unreal goal. We're just trying to tone it down a bit so he's just a little more fair for the others. And keeping ugly counterpicks won't help us one bit. When you think about it, he's not THAT far ahead of the rest of the cast. If he was, he would've been banned a long time ago.

Because you shouldn't be trying to balance the game with your ruleset, you should be promoting the best test of skill. If you wanted to balance the game, there are these things called mods. If the community were seriously trying to balance the game, they have the means to "patch it."

They choose not to, which very well could be a wise decision.

 

[Blue Warrior]

If the community were seriously trying to balance the game, they have the means to "patch it."

They choose not to, which very well could be a wise decision.

Out of curiosity, what are the drawbacks of attempting to balance the game -- for instance, what would the gameplay and community drawbacks be if the Unity ruleset were to enforce or at least encourage a mod such as Balanced Brawl into its ruleset?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Out of curiosity, what are the drawbacks of attempting to balance the game -- for instance, what would the gameplay and community drawbacks be if the Unity ruleset were to enforce or at least encourage a mod such as Balanced Brawl into its ruleset?

Nintendo specified on the Wii EULA that any third-party stuff is considered against it. Unless they explicitly approve it. Like with Third-Party games that you have to buy. Now, the hacks using the Memory Card are questionable at best.

Long story short, it's very possible for them to keep an eye on here, only worrying if it we make money off of the hacks(which we do when we hold a tourney using a modified copy of their games, that is not within modifying the game within the regular perimeter of the game itself. For example, we can remove items and still play the game without breaking any possible law. Why? It's an option given to us)

Okay, that wasn't a very short version. Anyway, when we mess with the balancing by, say, buffing a character, they can indeed say we're infringing copyright since we're messing with their intellectual property. Whether or not it would hold up in Court isn't the biggest problem. The fact that we could go to Court means we would be wasting money on not only this, but we're also trying to stay in MLG. Doing this would pretty much kill our hopes, would make us look bad to other gamers as well. But there's one other thing; Since it's only legal questionably, Venues do not want trouble caused for their Hotel/Building due to possibly getting in trouble with the law.

 

[Gea]

Out of curiosity, what are the drawbacks of attempting to balance the game -- for instance, what would the gameplay and community drawbacks be if the Unity ruleset were to enforce or at least encourage a mod such as Balanced Brawl into its ruleset?

Well, there are two drawbacks.

One is logistically it is more difficult to ensure that all Wiis are running the "patch" correctly. Obviously this isn't the biggest issue in the world, as you no longer need the HBC, it can be launched from in game, and you could easily put a visible marking on the CSS to show what you are playing. Still, you either have to have the correct amount of SD cards or be careful that if a Wii gets reset, the codes are loaded up. Workaround could be made.

The real opposition I have to it, and I'm sure many people in this forum would be uneasy about, is who is the balancing up to? How does the community agree what is best for "balance" and fairness? Do you do like Balanced Brawl did and take out chaingrabs and grab-releases, or do you take a less impactful approach and merely iron out issues? How often do you update the game? By what standards do you decide something needs to be fixed? What happens when regions disagree on changes? This doesn't become just a matter of a stage being legal somewhere, it changes how a character is played in more subtle ways. Ask yourself, do you trust the people posting here to do a good, objective job at fixing the game?

Honestly? I don't.

 

[Blue Warrior]

@HF Have there been any attempts to get Nintendo to recognize and approve such a hack, or is it simply out of the question?

 

[Gea]

Nintendo, to my knowledge, has never told anyone to knock it off with Brawl hacks. The issue would come if someone tried to sell the hack and make money directly off of it, not compete with it. There are legal rules many TOs don't even adhere to because honestly no one "really cares," but could come up at any point.

For example, if a TO enters their own tournament, that is a big no-no. Many TOs still play in the events they run, with money on the line at that.

Edit: Bringing up MLG is actually a pretty fair point, though something tells me Brawl will see no more MLGs.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

@HF Have there been any attempts to get Nintendo to recognize and approve such a hack, or is it simply out of the question?

They've created downloads that specifically remove hacks through Wii Connect 24. Albeit, those were the regular hacks via hacking the Wii. It doesn't work against the Memory Card method, though. They do not approve of them. So I'd say out of the question.

As for MLG, if we actually use hacks, any chance we had with them is literally 0. Right now, our ridiculous rules just to keep one guy in check actually does not dwell on us.(I'm sorry, but LGL is really bad, and it still specifically targets MK and should be the same for all, or different for all, or not exist). But yeah.

 

[Judo777]

Stage flips don't directly kill people no. But it forces people into the air, so let's say you are playing falco vs MK. Clearly MK has the advantage on this stage and MU, but let's say you avoided being gimped or going off the right side at the start of the game and then when the stage flipped you played smart and got stage control.

MK can literally just plank until the stage flips....
Stage control changes, you are now in the air (where you don't want to be vs MK) and even worse MK can close the distance spacing wise and you have less runaway room. So essentially without even reading, the Momentum of the match has been flipped* (lol) and you are now at a disadvantaged position.

Bad positions -> less options -> more likely of being read -> put into worse situations -> stock.

And there's nothing wrong with that... if it required players to think instead of just camp.


LOOOL


Stage isn't random it's just designed in a way where timeouts are pretty inevitable lmao.


This is the same problem I have with the john numbers charts
you receive data, and that's literally it data. you make an assumption with no statistical analysis, regardless of it's right or not and then justify your claims with said opinion like it's a fact.



5/5

Gluttony
Mr.R
Leon
Me
maybe Calzorz? idk haven't played spain but yeah we got this




I've played shugo judge and lain's MK before. If you want to include wifi you can add MJG but meh, i also played shugo/judge a lot on wifi back in the day. But I don't really talk to judge that often anymore and it's to laggy to play people in EU now so I stopped that ish. My interpretation of bad may different than yours though.

I.e, lains MK might be good enough to beat MK like you or something, and that's cool. He's a good player, I expect his secondary to be solid, however. His MK isn't going to carry him to his old results where he practiced and literally went all ICs. Homie didn't even make it out of pools at this event, which is a shame.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233459
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=246375
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10928091#post10928091

It does not take a rocket scientist to realize this..

Inui is garbage also like, homie hasn't been attending tournaments either or practicing to be fair. Two rusty *** MK mains fighting each other doesn't seem like the greatest testament to your skill. Beating Inui in bracket at this point is only considered a stepping stone, should not a large accomplishment I will be real LMAO.

Like how recently have you played them? Was it within the last 6 months? Because otherwise it doesn't really matter. I played Ally like 3 years ago and I wasn't super impressed, too bad hes god like now.

There were alot of good players that didn't make it out of pools at Apex like ALOT, I think Zex didn't make it out of first round pools (he had Tyrant and Hylian in his pool). To my knowledge MJG only plays MK for the ditto, so his MK is obviously good enough to beat other high level MK's (that's generally what happens when really good players switch to the bat).

 

[John12346]

This is the same problem I have with the john numbers charts
you receive data, and that's literally it data. you make an assumption with no statistical analysis, regardless of it's right or not and then justify your claims with said opinion like it's a fact.

With that said

I'm willing to do z, t, or chi-squared tests or w/e, but I have no idea wtf I'm supposed to be testing for, so... Someone needs to give me a springboard to jump off of.

I've got a population n = 400 tournaments, more or less, and I'm probably gonna want to use a p value of .05, but that's all I've got. Toss out suggestions, people.

 

[Steam]

No one here is actually a statician... So derp.

 

[X1Type1]

omg if people wait to revote on the mk ban everyone will get ***** by mk cuz they will have forgotten wehat little they knew about the match up. the ban is retarted but unbanning him in 6 months is even dumber. he shudnt have been banned to begin with. its not an under evolved meta game that messed things up, its cuz USA players were so busy whining that they didnt focus on why mk is so successful in USA when everywhere else there was never an mk issue. the USA rulesets benifet mk greatly. whos idea was it to include stages like brin and rc? a Ledge grab limit? lol it shud have been a minimum ground time rule. japan had the game a year before us and was successful with they're original rulesets so y cudnt we just use theirs? we change ours constantly and it only gets worse. now japan has no intrest in US tornies cuz of the ban and a lot of mk mains are totally screwed futher shrinking our already dying community. jeez am i the only one who thinks before they scream overpowered, ban, bs, gay, not fair, or broken!?

 

[Browny]

rofl

statistics are useless when you are dealing with characters, whom a very disproportionate amount of people play, simply because they are their favourite VG character.

The amount of pro players of any given character is proportional to how many people actually play said character, so a perfect example is sonic and G&W. Sonic has more players who are considerably more dedicated to their main and going solo with them than almost any other and their results would indicate hes better than G&W, but of course he isnt. better would obviously result in better tournament results.

Thats just the most extreme example I can think of, but it still applied as you get higher up the tier list and similarly with stages, people pick what they like, not what may be the best possible option.

Its impossible to quantify the emotional attachment to characters and clearly, its effects are dramatic. If you even bother trying to use proper stats methods, youre still dealing with enormous assumptions of how much of a characters success, cna be attributed to how good they actually are.

Do a z, t, chi^2 analysis and all that stuff, but it wont prove anything. If people dont believe what numbers you come up with, then what can they believe? dont do extra work because some people put an impossible burden of proof on you, which will serve no purpose to complete, majority of people accept the limits of what you do, and understand it cant be pushed any further.

 

[Thino]

With that said

I'm willing to do z, t, or chi-squared tests or w/e, but I have no idea wtf I'm supposed to be testing for, so... Someone needs to give me a springboard to jump off of.

I've got a population n = 400 tournaments, more or less, and I'm probably gonna want to use a p value of .05, but that's all I've got. Toss out suggestions, people.

Its like people really ignore my posts or something, do I have to dig it back?

 

[Kimidori]

Its like people really ignore my posts or something, do I have to dig it back?

Yes :D I want to hear replies to your posts.

 

[DeLux]

Like how recently have you played them? Was it within the last 6 months? Because otherwise it doesn't really matter. I played Ally like 3 years ago and I wasn't super impressed, too bad hes god like now.

There were alot of good players that didn't make it out of pools at Apex like ALOT, I think Zex didn't make it out of first round pools (he had Tyrant and Hylian in his pool). To my knowledge MJG only plays MK for the ditto, so his MK is obviously good enough to beat other high level MK's (that's generally what happens when really good players switch to the bat).

Zex made it out of pools since he was the number one seed in my pool in round 2 >_>

 

[DMG]

Why not to limit characters:

1. Where do you stop, and if we accept limiting this character or this aspect why not apply that elsewhere for the benefit of the game? If it's ok to nerf MK, why isn't it ok to nerf or buff other areas? You want me to slap all this stuff on MK to make him more fair (lol our community has to use specific rules on a character to make him more fair, I bet we lookin darn good and non scrubby at this point), but then I can't make CF better or nerf Snake a slight bit or limit Diddy or other characters?

If it's not ok to nerf or buff the other characters because the game's balanced enough for you or there's no need to or going around tweaking the game like that is scrubby, ok. But then the very fact of nerfing MK specifically indicates something is wrong with him, if all you have to do is contrast it to the rest of the cast that doesn't need this nerfing or buffing or if changing characers is scrubby (not nerfing MK apparently hue). You can't have it both ways where we limit him to the ground and justify it with "He wasn't broken, we just want a funner game!". He's either Broken and we're doing this to make him fair, or we need to leave his *** alone. And I doubt anyone seriously wants a National Tournament with no LGL or scrooging rule or blah blah blah blah. Do you?

 

[_Kain_]

Except banning stages like Brinstar and RC to me aren't just for MK. Maybe Delfino and Frigate, but not the first 2. Those stages are dumb regardless. And sorry but I hate to hear there's timers blah blah blah this and that. There is nothing you can do about stage flipping, lava rising, or that other stuff when your forced into certain positions at certain times THROUGHOUT that match. What can you do about stage flipping, lava rising, and others if your thrown off the stage and forced to recover at that time? Or if you get grabbed at that time? Or both getting hit by lava and since one player has lower percent he is rewarded by being able to up air your *** and kill you due to being lower from the lava knockback? I guess it comes down more to perspective on that but that **** is all pure luck to me when stupid stuff like that happens in matches.

Those stages are dumb. LGL might be the only thing really in place for MK but even then some other characters are also stupid at the ledge like GnW, Pit, to an extent ROB. And in some MU's some characters are capable of being pretty ridiculous at the ledge too.

I think it's mainly just coming down to what you want more lately rather than facts. Some people look at it negatively cause they want MK gone, others positively cause they don't think his ban is warranted.

And I think people are taking the whole "herpderp Japan won Apex unban MK" the wrong way. People moreso witnessed that Mk didn't need the stupid gimmicks which everyone argues that makes him broken to win.

 

[Judo777]

Zex made it out of pools since he was the number one seed in my pool in round 2 >_>

Well Hylian made it out too. So did Tyrant not? Or is Omega Tyrant someone else? lol

Also no man according to everyone that argues with me (on this subject), once we have the MK MU to a point of understanding there is no need to practice it because we know it. We are all already to a point where we can no longer get better at the MU because we all know it already.........

 

[Hylian]

Well Hylian made it out too. So did Tyrant not? Or is Omega Tyrant someone else? lol

I beat Tyrant 2-0 in Pools.

Spoiler

At whobo! Omega Tyrant is someone else, zex got first seed in my pool beating me.

 

[Cassio]

Honestly Judo those people dont put out results with their MKs. Thats why no ones mentioning them or taking them seriously.

And yeah the rule/stage issues arent because of MK. If anything they exist from problems we created.

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm anti-ban but limiting MK (or any character for that matter) is ********. AFAIK APEX's only limit was IDC. The goal of a ruleset should NOT be to try to balance the game artificially; it should be to make tournament results consistent and test the skillset that the majority of the relevant community wish to test.

 

[DMG]

Stages is fine. I dunno why we're not down to 3 stages only at this point if people genuinely dislike stages regardless of MK.

Doesn't matter either way. You can take MK specific reform, flip it, and change it into universal "necessities" to bypass that. You might as well Legalize him, play on FD only, LGL of 10, and prevent anyone from gliding under. That's an enjoyable game: MK on prob his worst stage always, no ledge bull****, flat stage where all you gotta do is fight the other guy to the death.

I fixed Brawl for you. Stop playing on other stages and with weak ***** rules. Get to it America

 

[Strong Badam]

There is nothing you can possibly do to fix Brawl. Sorry.

 

[Ghostbone]

AFAIK APEX's only limit was IDC.

There was also a 40 LGL for every character, and limits on stalling and stuff if you count that.

 

[DMG]

I can fix it so far, that MK isn't even the best character in the game.

But changing the game like that would be scrubby...

*Goes back to Ground Time rule*

I mean, we can't fix other characters or make MK a baby, but we can come up with a rule that seriously says being in the AIR is too strong. Because no matter how awful that idea is, it's universal and you can pass it off as a necessity for the game. We accept bad rules that universally impact the game because we're not willing to admit that MK plays a large role in them. Who the **** even THOUGHT of a scrooging rule until you saw M2K vs Meep? Be ****ing honest, don't be that guy who says I saw an 08 Pit that vigorously made me think this.

 

[Strong Badam]

There was also a 40 LGL for every character, and limits on stalling and stuff if you count that.

I was referring to character-specific limitations; the kind that would be trying to artificially balance the game, the whole point of my post. Thanks for bringing those up though, you've contributed greatly to the discussion.

 

[Gea]

Do you think that the LGL would exist without MK? It's understood that the LGL affects everyone, but would Brawl still need an LGL without MK?

 

[Strong Badam]

This is where someone links to Rich Brown vs. Will

 

[Gea]

So you personally feel like the rest of the cast, DK included, has planking good enough to warrant having an LGL?

 

[Ghostbone]

I was referring to character-specific limitations; the kind that would be trying to artificially balance the game, the whole point of my post. Thanks for bringing those up though, you've contributed greatly to the discussion.

Because the LGL isn't trying to balance the game artificially at all.

 

[_Kain_]

Except people only generally dislike Brinstar and RC. No one is talking about just going to FD. Even if it goes down to Japan's stage list that's still 6 stages. But apparently the Brawl community wants to argue that every stage has some strategy to it when it really doesn't. Some are just complete BS LMAO. Like I said you can argue that there is timer and so n so to this stage but that doesn't take into account how that pans out when your actually playing against someone else. There are other things that are not in your 100% control.

Not to mention that those 2 stages played a big part in the "overcentralization" of MK to begin with.

 

[Strong Badam]

Because the LGL isn't trying to balance the game artificially at all.

It isn't. People got pissed at multiple characters being douchebags at the ledge and put a limit there. It'd be artificial balance if say each character had a different LGL to allow some characters to plank yet some characters have LGL's that are reachable without trying to.
Implementing an LGL is as much of an attempt to balance the game as banning "stalling" as the Unity Ruleset puts it. It's basically banning a technique that has been deemed too powerful and would degenerate gameplay extremely. LGL is just a quantified way of doing so, as "stalling" can be quite ambiguous for a TO or referee to determine.

 

[Spelt]

Not at all.

 

[Ghostbone]

IDK man, equally limiting a universal part of the game that everyone uses differently and to different effects surely isn't an artificial balance change, nah obviously every character is affected exactly the same with a LGL and there would be no changes to the tier list without it.

 

[DMG]

Except people only generally dislike Brinstar and RC. No one is talking about just going to FD. Even if it goes down to Japan's stage list that's still 6 stages. But apparently the Brawl community wants to argue that every stage has some strategy to it when it really doesn't. Some are just complete BS LMAO. Like I said you can argue that there is timer and so n so to this stage but that doesn't take into account how that pans out when your actually playing against someone else. There are other things that are not in your 100% control.

Not to mention that those 2 stages played a big part in the "overcentralization" of MK to begin with.

I meant more along the lines of scrapping Delfino Halberd others for MK, even if the stages normally are pretty fine. RC Brinstar should have been gone a long time ago. But I don't doubt for a second that the stage list would get smaller than that for even milder stages, and not because we "love FD".

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Well... He can plank on every stage... No matter the stage list we still need a surgical lgl to keep him from being unbeatable. Even with that... He's still on another level than the rest of the cast

I'll believe it when they take out the universal LGL