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Q&A Falco Q&A

Mogwai

Smash Gizmo
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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
the matchup thread is pretty bad anyway, I was contributing to it when I was decent but unexperienced, so I dunno, take everything in there with a grain of salt, most of it is pretty scrubby advice. I'll advise you when I get back from bowling tonight, but the bigger issue is that you're just in bridgeport and as such should just come down to Stamford and play me sometime :bee:

edit: not really alu, I'm terrible about crowds, so I just try to tune them out, but thanks for cheering anyway :bee: I was stoked that I could show off that I'm actually pretty good at teams.
 

Alukard

Smash Hero
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Jan 16, 2007
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the matchup thread is pretty bad anyway, I was contributing to it when I was decent but unexperienced, so I dunno, take everything in there with a grain of salt, most of it is pretty scrubby advice. I'll advise you when I get back from bowling tonight, but the bigger issue is that you're just in bridgeport and as such should just come down to Stamford and play me sometime :bee:

edit: not really alu, I'm terrible about crowds, so I just try to tune them out, but thanks for cheering anyway :bee: I was stoked that I could show off that I'm actually pretty good at teams.
i'm happy that ur proving all that bull**** about u think u hit a wall or sumthing ... its all mental .. .just play your game son !!!

also ... dat falco dont die yo lol
 

V3ctorMan

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
2,261
Location
Sierra Vista AZ
@Mogwai - I know i don't post here often, but just wanted to say good **** at snes man! I wish i could've gone to cheer ya on, but *sigh* military life, kinda bites at times.... Like i said b4 i'll have a chance at Pound 4, and Pat's house...

Either way good **** man! =D
 

Handorin

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
6,013
Can you give me a rough estimate as to a matchup against Luigi? Also, what should I abuse against a Luigi main who is very defensive? I find it quite hard to get combos on him so I think I'm doing something wrong and I have no videos to direct you to...just give some suggestions. Thanks :]


(stages etc...)
Apparently the matchup thread is completely dead and is not going to be edited. :s
Run away and do lots of lasers (seriously).

Use Bair and Dair. Shine doesn't do much because of how floaty he is. Most of the time, he can just Nair through your stuff.

My luigi main friend annoys me to no end. =/ +He misfires more than a normal person.
 

S l o X

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
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2,838
Location
bridgeport, ct
Run away and do lots of lasers (seriously).

Use Bair and Dair. Shine doesn't do much because of how floaty he is. Most of the time, he can just Nair through your stuff.

My luigi main friend annoys me to no end. =/ +He misfires more than a normal person.
Sounds about right and sounds like the person I've played/play. Also Mogwai, refer to my first/intro post as tournaments or going anywhere. :s
 

Falcinho

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
831
Location
Austria
All Luigi mains have this special ability.

Pray that your Luigi main doesn't switch to Peach ...
2 stitchfaces and 1 bobomb in 4 tries .... that's all im gonna say
 

Pakman

WWMD
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At Genesis, I had to fight 3 peaches in a row. 1 Mr Saturn 2 Bombombs and 6 stitch faces.

Falcos should laser camp Luigi and end combos early.

Always assume a misfire, that move doesn't have a ton of priority, it just has the surprise factor.
 

Handorin

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
6,013
Misfire is like

*waiting for recovery*
*why is he coming at me so fast*
*OMG GET OUT OF THE WAY*
*Get hit and almost die*
 

Mogwai

Smash Gizmo
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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
Can you give me a rough estimate as to a matchup against Luigi? Also, what should I abuse against a Luigi main who is very defensive? I find it quite hard to get combos on him so I think I'm doing something wrong and I have no videos to direct you to...just give some suggestions. Thanks :]


(stages etc...)
Apparently the matchup thread is completely dead and is not going to be edited. :s
ok, so here we go on Falco vs. Luigi in a nutshell.

if he's playing defensive, u r doing it wrong, shoot the mother ****er and make him approach you. Your gun is infinitely better than his fireballs, so there is literally no contest at range, you just win, so make sure he knows that and make him be the one who has to approach.

bair and utilt out range most of his ****, so once you succeed in making him close some distance, they are your primary defensive option should he try to initiate contact. If he just tries to get close enough to punish you if you shoot rather than actually launching an attack, you should be approaching him with dair or late nair (that is, start your nair just before fast falling so that you don't hit with the weak part, as most Luigi's can just CC dsmash your weak nair).

don't be afraid to go out and just dair his recovery once you get rid of his double jump. while edgeguarding, I just hold the ledge and try to go out there and bair until he's forced to double jump, at which point, you can just set up an off stage dair (you can short hop dair with no fast fall and still recover on neutrals other than Yoshi's and Battlefield, and you can full hop, start a dair at the top and then fast fall about halfway through the dair animation and still recover on pretty much all stages).

Watch out for his up B out of shield, space vs. his shield so that he won't sweet spot it if he chooses to go for it. Hitting a shine under like, 20% is a trap, as most Falcos want to just full hop up, dair him down and then go for utilt, but at those low %s, your utilt typically trades with his nair, which is a losing deal as he gets out of hitstun WAY earlier and can just **** you. So instead, at those low %s, you should just uair/bair him after a shine and then run away and laser.

At later %s, your shine combos will work just fine as long as you're fast, but I can't stress enough that you need to have no wasted motion in the shine combos, as Luigi has very very low hit stun and if you're going to combo you need to be quick and decisive about it.

For stage counterpicks, be a huge prick. Take him to Pokefloats, he ****ing blows on that stage. If he successfully bans Pokefloats, you have a bunch of other lame options like Rainbow Cruise (Shine -> Shine kills really early and there are many points to exploit Luigi's poor aerial mobility), DK64 (screws with most Luigi's recoveries pretty bad) and Jungle Japes (camp the **** out of him and again ***** his recovery).

Overall, the matchup is noticeably in Falco's favor. You just have too many defensive options and can control the matchup so much better than Luigi. Don't get grabbed, don't fall into greedy combo traps and you should just win the war of attrition.
 

Razor

Smash Journeyman
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Aug 6, 2005
Messages
265
it's all about the stage selection. a campy falco on a big stage will always beat luigi.
 

Mogwai

Smash Gizmo
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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
I'd say it's more about patience. You just need to pick your spots with Luigi wisely and not get too ambitious with combos. Small stages like Yoshi's are fine in that you can frequently just do lame **** where you get like, shine -> dair -> shine -> shine off the top and kill him at like 50.
 

Pakman

WWMD
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I'd say it's more about patience. You just need to pick your spots with Luigi wisely and not get too ambitious with combos. Small stages like Yoshi's are fine in that you can frequently just do lame **** where you get like, shine -> dair -> shine -> shine off the top and kill him at like 50.
This is what happens when Mogwai plays me.
<marquee> :luigi: :mad088:</marquee>
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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At Genesis, I had to fight 3 peaches in a row. 1 Mr Saturn 2 Bombombs and 6 stitch faces.

Falcos should laser camp Luigi and end combos early.

Always assume a misfire, that move doesn't have a ton of priority, it just has the surprise factor.
lol, they should refund your money for the terrible service.
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
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mogwai, does upsmash oos beat pillar?

i ask because after watching this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7lXFcaVssY&feature=related at 2:55

this particular fox likes to upsmash oos a lot from other vids i've watched and he breaks attempted pillars with it a lot. that particular clip caught my eye.

anyway, i ask cuz, fox's like, never do this, but it seems to work out well for him. or did the falco mess up (i watched it like 5 times but i dont really see where)
 

Mogwai

Smash Gizmo
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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
there's always a point in shine -> dair -> shine where Fox can usmash OoS successfully.

Falco's counter to this is to doubleshine, so that when the Fox starts the jump OoS (which he will cancel with usmashing), you hit him with the second shine before the usmash's hitbox comes out. Shine -> grab also beats it, but it's by a smaller frame window and your punishment off of a grab is less than your punishment off of a shine.

in fact, I always thought that doubleshining was useless until I started to play PC and he would just usmash all my shield pressure :p
 

TresChikon

Smash Lord
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As promised, frame data on Pillaring:

Green = Their Shield is in stun

Red = Their Shield is not in stun

Early Pillar (dair asap out of shine):

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10

11
12
13 Airborne (start Dair)
14
15
16

17 Dair Hits, Hitlag
18 Hitlag
19 Hitlag
20 Hitlag
21 Hitlag
22 Hitlag
23 Hitlag
24
25
26
27
28
29
30

31
32 Fast Fall
33
34
35
36 Land, LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag

45 Shine again

Ideal Pillar (Typical Pillar):

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10

11
12
13 Airborne
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21 Start Dair
22
23
24
25

26 Dair Hits, HitLag, Fast Fall
27 Hitlag
28 Hitlag
29 Hitlag
30 Hitlag
31 Hitlag
32 Hitlag
33
34
35
36 Land- LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag

40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag

45 Shine again

Late Dair (Dair hits right before landing)

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10

11
12
13 Airborne
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 Start Dair
26 Fast Fall
27
28

29 Dair Hits, Hitlag
30 Hitlag
31 Hitlag
32 Hitlag
33 Hitlag
34 Hitlag
35 Hitlag
36 Land, LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag

43 LC lag
44 LC lag

45 Shine Again


I hope this clarifies everything for everyone, but i have a feeling it's going to generate more questions than answers. This just goes to show, The pillar is not as safe as you think.

Edit: this is the kind of **** you should quote in the first post.
Pillaring Data for the birdie
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
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there's always a point in shine -> dair -> shine where Fox can usmash OoS successfully.

Falco's counter to this is to doubleshine, so that when the Fox starts the jump OoS (which he will cancel with usmashing), you hit him with the second shine before the usmash's hitbox comes out. Shine -> grab also beats it, but it's by a smaller frame window and your punishment off of a grab is less than your punishment off of a shine.

in fact, I always thought that doubleshining was useless until I started to play PC and he would just usmash all my shield pressure :p
0_0

****...really? that actually surprises me that the upsmash can successfully squeeze in between the pillar. wow...

its wierd, fox's never do this, its always shine oos they go for.
 

TerenceLau

Smash Ace
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May 8, 2005
Messages
900
Location
Honolulu, Hawaii
sorry for asking again, i wonder if there's a falco frame data for all of his moves around somewhere? i've seen the pillar frame data, but that's not what i ask for. there's no data on this even on the sticky falco guide.

or at least, falco's frame data on his u-smash. thanks.
 

Sraigux

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
312
Location
Edmonton, AB
When you are approaching with SHL what is a good move to follow it up with?

And when using approaching SHLs they seem to take up a lot of distance which makes it awkward to space but with stationary SHLs you have no momemtum. What can be done about this?
 

Mogwai

Smash Gizmo
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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
sorry for asking again, i wonder if there's a falco frame data for all of his moves around somewhere? i've seen the pillar frame data, but that's not what i ask for. there's no data on this even on the sticky falco guide.

or at least, falco's frame data on his u-smash. thanks.
this is your bible for frame data:
http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/frames.html

hitlag and shield stun stuff are kinda weird, there's some post by Doraki in SCOTU's frame data thread about the formula for them, but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.

When you are approaching with SHL what is a good move to follow it up with?

And when using approaching SHLs they seem to take up a lot of distance which makes it awkward to space but with stationary SHLs you have no momemtum. What can be done about this?
approaching with SHL is usually a bad idea cause the spacing is weird and the timing is slow, so good players will usually be able to punish with a quick aerial. lasers should be used to cover your approach as you go from a long distance to a short distance, but once you're close enough to just run and jump and get to the other guy, you should probably be approaching with nair.

the other thing is that there's rarely a need to approach with Falco. as good as his approach game is, you're usually still better off using your lasers to make your opponent try to initiate contact and then react appropriately.
 

Sraigux

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
312
Location
Edmonton, AB
Alright, Thanks.

Also, if your shine clanks with one of the opponent's attacks would it be better to jump cancel and shine again or jump and just follow with an aerial?
 

TresChikon

Smash Lord
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@ the barnyard
I would like to know that too.

Also, whenever i parry something, whether it's u-tilt or shine, it's always accidental.
For example, aerial shine a DK. Shine cancels DK's Up+B OoS. I didn't do it on purpose, just out of instinct.

Is this a bad thing? Is everyone else out there parrying thing on purpose while I'm just getting lucky?
 

Mogwai

Smash Gizmo
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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
all the stuff from the first post is my own, asides from the scotu quote about pillaring.

my opinion is pretty clearly that there are situations for both, because well, there's really no opinion about it, sometimes side B is a better choice and sometimes up B is a better choice. if you're going to habitually always do one, do side B, since a predictable side B is harder to punish than a predictable up B, but this is clearly oversimplifying something that I have previously explained in detail.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
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The Wash: Lake City
sorry for asking again, i wonder if there's a falco frame data for all of his moves around somewhere? i've seen the pillar frame data, but that's not what i ask for. there's no data on this even on the sticky falco guide.

or at least, falco's frame data on his u-smash. thanks.
sup t lau, hows hawaii smash goin.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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The Wash: Lake City
i think the focus has shifted from smash playing to just social gathering. personally i am already busy with my 6 classes, or 19 credits, this semester.
well the real question, hows toph doing. Hes been saying hes gettin good, confident, etc with his falco.

Im just curious as to how much hes improved
 

TerenceLau

Smash Ace
Joined
May 8, 2005
Messages
900
Location
Honolulu, Hawaii
well the real question, hows toph doing. Hes been saying hes gettin good, confident, etc with his falco.

Im just curious as to how much hes improved
i thought you would know how much he had improved since you played with him all the time before summer. maybe he's still improving from secret sessions with ammon, but definitely not a drastic improvement over such short period of time.
 

Ocho(*8*)

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 30, 2009
Messages
514
Whats the best way to DI Faclco's Back throw so that he cant follow it up (as Fox or Falco)?
 
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