Falco+ ~Hands Off My Prey!~ Under Construction! Upgrading to 7.0

[King Funk]

Hey... I just managed to run the latest version of NTSC Brawlplus on my PAL Wii. It was about time! So yeah, now I can participate more in this thread because European version never had all these changes as quickly as one could want. I tried Falco+, and seriously he's absolutely amazing. I really want to thank all the guys working on this project and tell them they did an awesome job. Trying the character for the first time was one of my best smash experiences ever. For me, he's pretty much as cool as Melee Falco but in a very different way.

And I also realized he is now even sicker in Jungle Japes than he was in vBrawl. Phantasm tricks + dair makes him fantastic. I think his combo game which easily leads/finishes into dair spike pretty much replaced the chaingrab for the purpose of throwing the opponent in the water, which is really nice.

 

[GHNeko]

Falco confirmed for S tier in B+.

 

[Dan_X]

Hardware death or software.

I believe Hardware, as the computer will not start in any way possible. It goes to blue screen of death, no matter which boot mode I go for.

I already purchased a new computer, building it myself this time. However, seeing as how this will have been the first computer I've built I need help building it. I have all of the parts already, I'm still waiting for Windows7 to arrive in the mail.

 

[leafgreen386]

Er... if it's bluescreening, wouldn't that mean it's a software problem? If it were hardware, it wouldn't show anything. >_>

 

[weinzey]

bluescreen almost always results from a ram failure- espacially when overclocked- or overheating parts (mainly cpu or hdd). faulty software rather causes instant restarts than bluescreens (but thats extremely rare).

also, kudos for building ur own pc. its really easy and saves u like 1/3 of the price (or more than 50% if u thought about gettin a mac )

 

[leafgreen386]

Well, shows how much I know about computer failures.

Back on the topic of falco... since he obviously still has some final changes to work out, how about helping the WBR tweak your character? The dthrow -> jab reset and sideB both need some work, but we'd like to not overnerf falco in the process. There's a possibility for some trade-offs, here (you've been offered a dair where the sourspot is more like a weaker version of the sweetspot, although that's far from final). These changes will probably not make it in time for the 5.1 patch, but it would be good to get them hammered out as early as possible.

 

[Dan_X]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure one of my internal parts may have overheated it's 6years old as is. Yeah, thanks Weinzey, I'm so excited to have a new comp. I know some guys over at www.straferight.com who really know their tech. They put together the comp for me, I just had to click their links and buy it from NewEgg.

Leaf, thanks for the concise post. We'll have to discuss this stuff. I'm gonna comment more on what I think tomrrow. As it's easier to use a computer to post. Not only that, but I haven't had a chance to play smash much lately-- I've been busy with school.

Speaking of school... I'm psyched. Months of hard work has paid off. I've finally organized and started a Gamers' Club at my school! Lots of paperwork. That and I had to write the bi-laws from scratch. I've also made some flashy adds for the club. I'm going to be making some Brawl+ adds aswell. While I'm at it, does the community have need for such informative adds?

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Well so far, talking with Cape and the rest of the MD/VA crew, here are the changes to Falco we're talking about:

Nerfs:

- Nerfed Side B to decrease spammability/make it harder to punish (I suggested moving the hitbox back ala Melee, Cape suggested shrinking the hitbox and nerfing damage done by 1%, I know leaf mentioned slowing down the start-up, and other people have mentioned upping the landing lag. I tend to side with the former two rather than the latter, but leaf's suggestion isn't bad either, but not ideal for me. Any comments on which to go through with?).

- Increased BKB and higher angle on D-throw to prevent jab -> regrabs.

- Nerfed Jab1? (How exactly I'm unclear on. Cape mentioned it's not the speed in which it executes that is the problem, it's its priority/ability to jab -> grab as easy as it does. I wouldn't know how exactly to fix the latter, but the only way to fix the former is possibly shrinking the hitbox a tiny bit? Again, that wouldn't do much for the latter, though I suppose the more you can't hit with the jab, the less likely it is to jab -> grab as you can't do a jab -> grab without the jab first connecting, yes?)

- No sweetspot Side B (global change, but worth mentioning as it does hurt Falco more than most characters)

- Increased ALR on Nair, Bair, and Dair (though how much ALR should be stripped off wasn't discussed. Cape mentioned changing it back to vBrawl levels, but aside from Nair - which is still extremely fast in vBrawl and can be auto-canceled in the middle of the move, I believe that would be excessive).

- Nerfed utilt? (either JCaesar's suggestion of increasing the endlag of utilt or Cape's suggestion of reducing hitstun. JC's suggestion seems silly to me, since it's already one of the most punishable utilts in the game, but not quite as much hitstun wouldn't be so bad. Of course, I assume hitstun will be globally reduced anyway, so to me it's a non-issue. Additional BKB was also proposed by SHeLL in the post following this one, a potential viable option).


Trade-offs:

- Dair sourspot change (you know the one)

- Uthrow altercation? (Cape discussed making Falco's uthrow his combo throw, and dthrow his tech throw. What would happen is that the lasers would give more stun and hit at a better angle [more up than forward], and BKB reduced so that it would operate like a better Melee Falco uthrow. I have not seen this mentioned from anyone else in this thread, so speak up)

I think those are all the changes I've heard/talked about both here and with the MD/VA+ regulars. Not all of them are going to make it through, and the ones that do are probably going to be decided by you guys. I already implied what I thought of each of the changes in their descriptions.

So have at you.

 

[Shell]

Right now Falco's Dair has 6 frames of landing lag. We're planning on going through most moves and adding 1-4 additional frames on many of the lowest-lag moves, so this isn't something that only affects Falco.

Also, I feel the need to emphasize that it's simply no automatic sweetspot on the phantasm. A little bit of practice and you'll still be sweetspotting like a champ most of the time.

As for U-tilt, I just think it needs more BKB. That's all.

I liked the idea of a meteor-comboing-dair-sourspot. For those who've forgotten, it'd be a meteor with the same BKB, but much lower KBG. Not really useful for actual spiking so much, but good to continue comboing with at mid+ percents.

 

[RPGsFTW]

I agree with Shell and TH+. I've always felt that it was a bit too easy for Falco to jab -> grab. That how I build up almost ALL my damage when fighting certain people. I'd jab -> grab -> Dthrow -> Dair. And with Falco's ridiculously good jab -> grab, I was able to repeat this over and over to my friend. I'm hoping the changes will fix that. I'm also glad to hear about the no sweetspotting Side-B.

 

[JCaesar]

- Nerfed utilt? (either JCaesar's suggestion of increasing the endlag of utilt or Cape's suggestion of reducing hitstun. JC's suggestion seems silly to me, since it's already one of the most punishable utilts in the game, but not quite as much hitstun wouldn't be so bad. Of course, I assume hitstun will be globally reduced anyway, so to me it's a non-issue. Additional BKB was also proposed by SHeLL in the post following this one, a potential viable option).

Just FYI, my suggestion was increasing the endlag a bit but keeping the IASA frames the same as they are now. The only thing it would make it more difficult to do is utilt -> utilt. Utilt -> aerial would still work the same.

It would also make it less safe to spam utilt against a shield (I dunno where you got that Falco's is one of the more punishable utilts in the game, that's simply not true). You could utilt a shield and jump away just as fast as you can now though.

 

[Dan_X]

response:

Well so far, talking with Cape and the rest of the MD/VA crew, here are the changes to Falco we're talking about:

I'll handle this one step at a time:

Nerfs:

- Nerfed Side B to decrease spammability/make it harder to punish (I suggested moving the hitbox back ala Melee, Cape suggested shrinking the hitbox and nerfing damage done by 1%, I know leaf mentioned slowing down the start-up, and other people have mentioned upping the landing lag. I tend to side with the former two rather than the latter, but leaf's suggestion isn't bad either, but not ideal for me. Any comments on which to go through with?).

I think retaining the speed and moving back the hitbox is the best solution (a la melee). Let's not forget that this is Falco's prime recovery move. In addition, in the future it will no longer auto-sweetspot. I truly think that slowing it down would make it overkill. It's speed should be all it has going for it, it's supposed to be fast.

- Increased BKB and higher angle on D-throw to prevent jab -> regrabs.

I'm fine with Cape's idea of making Dthrow his techchase throw and Uthrow his combo throw. Falco's grab game is hardly varied, his best option is almost always Dthrow -> followup. F throw can be good on switch up, but nothing comes close to the usefulness of Dthrow. With that said, it'd be nice to have reason to use another throw as it'd make his throw game less linear and otherwise bland.

- Nerfed Jab1? (How exactly I'm unclear on. Cape mentioned it's not the speed in which it executes that is the problem, it's its priority/ability to jab -> grab as easy as it does. I wouldn't know how exactly to fix the latter, but the only way to fix the former is possibly shrinking the hitbox a tiny bit? Again, that wouldn't do much for the latter, though I suppose the more you can't hit with the jab, the less likely it is to jab -> grab as you can't do a jab -> grab without the jab first connecting, yes?)

I'm not entirely sure how to go about this change. Shrinking the hitbox could work. In the end though I want Falco's jab game to retain much of its use. Tweaking jab1 should resolve anything jab related. I don't suddenly want whatever change he goes through to turn his jab game into meh... though I'm sure this wouldn't happen anyway. What ever change is needed to remove Dthrow -> Jab -> regrab is fine by me, so long as that's all it disallows.

- No sweetspot Side B (global change, but worth mentioning as it does hurt Falco more than most characters)

Again, I'm fine with no global AUTO sweet-spotting. As Shell mentioned, well aimed phantasms will still sweetspot (as they should).

- Increased ALR on Nair, Bair, and Dair (though how much ALR should be stripped off wasn't discussed. Cape mentioned changing it back to vBrawl levels, but aside from Nair - which is still extremely fast in vBrawl and can be auto-canceled in the middle of the move, I believe that would be excessive).

I'm not sure how I feel about much ALR being added to said moves. However, if characters are receiving global changes of this nature I guess that's fine. Nair is an underused move by many Falcos, it should still retain its use. I personally can't stand how laggy the ALR on his Fair is.

- Nerfed utilt? (either JCaesar's suggestion of increasing the endlag of utilt or Cape's suggestion of reducing hitstun. JC's suggestion seems silly to me, since it's already one of the most punishable utilts in the game, but not quite as much hitstun wouldn't be so bad. Of course, I assume hitstun will be globally reduced anyway, so to me it's a non-issue. Additional BKB was also proposed by SHeLL in the post following this one, a potential viable option).

I'll answer with the following quote, which I agree with 100%:

Just FYI, my suggestion was increasing the endlag a bit but keeping the IASA frames the same as they are now. The only thing it would make it more difficult to do is utilt -> utilt. Utilt -> aerial would still work the same.

It would also make it less safe to spam utilt against a shield (I dunno where you got that Falco's is one of the more punishable utilts in the game, that's simply not true). You could utilt a shield and jump away just as fast as you can now though.

If the problem is Utilt -> Utilt combos, JCaesar's idea should solve that perfectly well. Why bother increasing knockback, as that could hurt followups, or changing anything else? The IASA frames are there for a reason, let's have more reason to use them (btw, it's not like Falco is the only character in the game who can get off 2 Utilts in a row, are other characters who can also do this being discussed? For example, ZSS stands out to me, and Squirlte, etc. I generally don't see this as being too problematic, as usually the most you can get off before it can be DIed are 2).

Trade-offs:

- Dair sourspot change (you know the one)

This would be great. Sweetspotting should still result in a stronger spike though (obviously).

- Uthrow altercation? (Cape discussed making Falco's uthrow his combo throw, and dthrow his tech throw. What would happen is that the lasers would give more stun and hit at a better angle [more up than forward], and BKB reduced so that it would operate like a better Melee Falco uthrow. I have not seen this mentioned from anyone else in this thread, so speak up)

Again, read my above comments on this. I do agree with Cape.

 

[JCaesar]

Just for the record (and before Thunderhorse comes in and says something about me playing Squirtle ), I think the "more endlag + IASA" thing should be applied to most of the utilts in the game. Spamming utilts against a shield should not be an effective shield pressure strategy (I don't think any of them are frame-perfect safe but a lot of them have such a small window of punishment that they can be very difficult to deal with). It's ******** and mindless and pretty much the definition of EZ Mode. Making utilt -> jump be a safer option than utilt spam against a shield would add more variety to every character.

 

[shanus]

Phantasm's hitbox is already behind him. The issue is how at the start of the move his hurtbox lags behind as the hitbox seems to jump ahead due to the increased travel speed. About halfway to 3/4 of the way through its significantly easier to knock him out than the initial frames.

 

[leafgreen386]

- Nerfed Side B to decrease spammability/make it harder to punish (I suggested moving the hitbox back ala Melee, Cape suggested shrinking the hitbox and nerfing damage done by 1%, I know leaf mentioned slowing down the start-up, and other people have mentioned upping the landing lag. I tend to side with the former two rather than the latter, but leaf's suggestion isn't bad either, but not ideal for me. Any comments on which to go through with?).

Actually, I've recently been converted to the "increase landing lag" camp on the topic of falco's sideB. Yes, the problem is that it starts up too quickly on the stage to expect to get in a hit before it goes past you, but the problem is also that you cannot punish after shielding, leaving no good option to deal with it. Raising its startup will make his recovery much easier to intercept or edgehog, whereas raising its landlag a bit will probably have the least impact on his recovery (except for ledgehop sideB, but as far as I'm concerned, that's in the same boat as sideB camping).

On the topic of utilt, I agree with raising its endlag and leaving the interrupt the same.

Making dthrow into strictly a techchase throw would be all that's needed to relieve the dthrow -> jab -> regrab combo, although with a combo'ing uthrow, having such a powerful jab -> grab will still be very dangerous. I'm not really sure what the best approach to this would be. Obviously, his jab game is very important to him right now, so we shouldn't remove that. Perhaps the suggestion to simply reduce his jab range would be the best option.

Also, I'm pretty sure the falco sour dair would have reduced base, too, not just growth (@shell). I still have the pac with our test dair which still needed some tweaking. I'll have to go check the values, but it should be a good place to start.

 

[Allied]

we are now discussing falco+ gameplay videos

Start.

 

[King Funk]

Making dthrow into strictly a techchase throw would be all that's needed to relieve the dthrow -> jab -> regrab combo.

I think it's the jab-regrab thing that must be fixed. Making his d-throw into a techchase throw would deprive him of awesome uses he had with it, d-throw to DACUS, d-throw to dair, d-throw to shine, etc.

The d-throw should remain the same.

 

[JCaesar]

I think it's the jab-regrab thing that must be fixed. Making his d-throw into a techchase throw would deprive him of awesome uses he had with it, d-throw to DACUS, d-throw to dair, d-throw to shine, etc.

The d-throw should remain the same.

Those followups would still exist if you follow the tech correctly. They just wouldn't be guaranteed like they are now.

Though I've said before, I don't think dthrow needs to be changed. Just jab.

 

[leafgreen386]

I think it's the jab-regrab thing that must be fixed. Making his d-throw into a techchase throw would deprive him of awesome uses he had with it, d-throw to DACUS, d-throw to dair, d-throw to shine, etc.

The d-throw should remain the same.

Well I said that in response to making his uthrow into his combo throw. If that were not done, then yeah, his dthrow could just be changed to prevent the jab while preserving the other followups... which I'm sure is possible.

 

[Dan_X]

Yeah, I'd rather leave the d-throw as is, only fixing jab1.

 

[Allied]

i like jab >.<

 

[Dan_X]

i like jab >.<

Yes, but jab that leads into unfair regrabs is bad. Jab will still be good after the tweaks, it just can't be allowed to reset the way it does.

 

[Allied]

I can name a couple of characters like that >.> try luigi for example

The only reason you do that and it works like that is because alot of characters in this game for example dont have alot of options out of jab

even in regular brawl and in melee it has been like this

why take it out now? just because you feel its unfair? plenty of characters do this falco just has the best

 

[Dan_X]

I can name a couple of characters like that >.> try luigi for example

The only reason you do that and it works like that is because alot of characters in this game for example dont have alot of options out of jab

even in regular brawl and in melee it has been like this

why take it out now? just because you feel its unfair? plenty of characters do this falco just has the best

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with this advantage. Why should I? It allows me to take more control of my enemy. I always try to use it. The thing is, many see it as being unnecessary, not only that but he has a REALLY good jab game as is, not to mention a decent throw game. His Dthrow provides numerous follow up options. At lower percents he can shine, DACUS, Gattling combo, whatever. At higher percents (and not even much higher), when the enemy can DI further away, they often can only do so into the ground opening up a tech chasing game. Falco has tons of tech chasing options. He can Nair (which is great because it beats out spot dodges and whatnot). He can also Dair, phantasm, shield and grab after the enemy's get-up attack.. etc.

People consider it unfair, perhaps from a frame advantage viewpoint... perhaps because it effects heavies more than the rest (and Falco doesn't need help vs heavies)...

I don't see how jab re-grabs are too bad, only because from what I've seen you can only regrab twice (3 times at the extreme most) before most can DI away faster than you can regrab. Not to mention the fact that his grabs don't kill, they just add damage. So you generally won't be killed as a result of a grab.

Either way, i'm fine with it being toned down.

 

[Allied]

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with this advantage. Why should I? It allows me to take more control of my enemy. I always try to use it. The thing is, many see it as being unnecessary, not only that but he has a REALLY good jab game as is, not to mention a decent throw game. His Dthrow provides numerous follow up options. At lower percents he can shine, DACUS, Gattling combo, whatever. At higher percents (and not even much higher), when the enemy can DI further away, they often can only do so into the ground opening up a tech chasing game. Falco has tons of tech chasing options. He can Nair (which is great because it beats out spot dodges and whatnot). He can also Dair, phantasm, shield and grab after the enemy's get-up attack.. etc.

People consider it unfair, perhaps from a frame advantage viewpoint... perhaps because it effects heavies more than the rest (and Falco doesn't need help vs heavies)...

I don't see how jab re-grabs are too bad, only because from what I've seen you can only regrab twice (3 times at the extreme most) before most can DI away faster than you can regrab. Not to mention the fact that his grabs don't kill, they just add damage. So you generally won't be killed as a result of a grab.

Either way, i'm fine with it being toned down.

What i want to know is what is the exact nerf and how bad its going to be

If this nerf completely makes Jab -> Regrab impossible for falco again thats dumb because mostly this happens right now because of falco's amazing pressuring and damage build up and combo game which makes people make mistakes but falco has cons just as well which effect this which is his Kill game and sure you can say "well falco can combo into a kill" but as i was shown that is hard at high percentages and falco can really only kill at high percentages (i'm talking 120% + you trying killing ROB any lower) i'm mentioning this for the heavies because the lights dont matter right now because alot of heavies can use utilize options around this its up to the players to recognize these options and then decisively and quickly use them in a organized matter

If this nerf is just for more heavy vitality then i guess thats fine but i wish people would realize that theres ways around it and it hasn't been fully explored yet which is the fun part of facing something as challenging as falco, Falco isn't exactly the best character in the game and has strong counters IMO so i dont understand some of these slight nerfs are coming into effect

if you are TL;DR

tbh i think its more of a player skill issue than a Falco is broken issue

i did like ur explaination tho

(btw this is just an opinion inb4 flaming)

 

[Dan_X]

What i want to know is what is the exact nerf and how bad its going to be

If this nerf completely makes Jab -> Regrab impossible for falco again thats dumb because mostly this happens right now because of falco's amazing pressuring and damage build up and combo game which makes people make mistakes but falco has cons just as well which effect this which is his Kill game and sure you can say "well falco can combo into a kill" but as i was shown that is hard at high percentages and falco can really only kill at high percentages (i'm talking 120% + you trying killing ROB any lower) i'm mentioning this for the heavies because the lights dont matter right now because alot of heavies can use utilize options around this its up to the players to recognize these options and then decisively and quickly use them in a organized matter

If this nerf is just for more heavy vitality then i guess thats fine but i wish people would realize that theres ways around it and it hasn't been fully explored yet which is the fun part of facing something as challenging as falco, Falco isn't exactly the best character in the game and has strong counters IMO so i dont understand some of these slight nerfs are coming into effect

if you are TL;DR

tbh i think its more of a player skill issue than a Falco is broken issue

i did like ur explaination tho

(btw this is just an opinion inb4 flaming)

Okay, let me express my thoughts a bit.

I for one don't fight heavies too often, as none of my friends main heavies. When they play them for fun I ream them, but that has more to do with their lack of skill with said heavy than anything else. The match is exaggerated way too much as Falco is already a heavy counter, and my friends don't even know how to play the heavies effectively. If it is true that the jab to regrab is too strong against them then okay... find a solution.

Against most every other character, a jab -> regrab simply isn't feasible, especially beyond 30%, if the enemy DIs away (try this with Zamus). There are many times when the jab -> regrab doesn't work, even if you were able to jab them, as their momentum still sends them away from you after having been jabbed.

I don't see how the jab -> regrab is so powerful that it deserves being nerfed. In most cases, if it is in fact possible, you can only get it off once or twice, and generally that's because of poor DI. In addition, it really only works at lower percents. Let's not be foolish, even if Falco scores a re-grab it's almost certain that said grab will NOT result in a KO. Falco doesn't have any concrete KO options out of a throw, especially at high percents. Other characters have far more devastating throws, and if they had a jab that allowed them to re-grab, I can see it being outright ridiculous. Think for a moment about Ness's d-throw, or Zeldas throw (I forget which throw sets up into sweet spotted Fair and Bairs), or Peach's Dthrow, which brings the enemy around her head level even at higher percents. These characters can all follow up with moves that have a much higher chance of killing than Falco. So why does it even matter if Falco is able to re-grab once or twice?

Show me some videos where Falco's jab -> regrab is proven to be broken.

BTW: On a related note. I have some Falco replays I'd like to post to youtube, but my capture card is NOT working. If I upload the replays of my Falco, and Ness, could someone check them out, and perhaps put them on youtube? That'd be great! I'd prefer capture card quality, if possible. The thing is, we don't have any Falco+ videos in this thread. Thunderhorse, can you link me to some of your videos from the latest build? I'll post them in the OP. All of you can contribute here. Thanks!

 

[bob-e]

Orca, how many videos do you have?

I could rip them for you, butI won't make any promises about quality, since I just have a USB capture device.

 

[skstylez]

i am a bit confused. I thought falco's jab was near terrible, it doesnt actually combo with anything. I still use it but think of it as not one of the better jabs of the roster

 

[KOkingpin]

i am a bit confused. I thought falco's jab was near terrible, it doesnt actually combo with anything. I still use it but think of it as not one of the better jabs of the roster

lol have you ever played against falco? His jab has ridiculous priority. Its not like a combo machine but It does have situational regrab points. but it Still stops a lot of stuff. Its nasty.

 

[Dan_X]

Orca, how many videos do you have?

I could rip them for you, butI won't make any promises about quality, since I just have a USB capture device.

Yeah, that would be great. A USB capture device is more than fine... I bought on myself but for some ridiculous reason I can't get it to work. I'm just thankful that you'd consider posting some of my matches. I'm not really sure the best way to identify the replays I want on the SD card, but I'll look them over on the Wii first. I'll worry more about my Falco matches than anything else.

I'll upload them to my mediafire account later today, if possible, then I'll link them here.

i am a bit confused. I thought falco's jab was near terrible, it doesnt actually combo with anything. I still use it but think of it as not one of the better jabs of the roster

Falco's jab is excellent. I just don't know that the jab reset to regrab is so powerful that it deems nerfing, as most of the time it can be DIed out of.

 

[JCaesar]

Other characters have jab -> grabs that work just as well or even better than Falco's. Very few characters however have a jab1 as good as Falco's. That's the difference. Falco is better at initiating it.

 

[Dan_X]

Okay. Some replays for you guys. To make things easier, instead of uploading replays that I haven't had a chance to review, I'm uploading two good ones from last night.

Both are against my friend's Peach. The first match is a REAL close one... The second match... well you'll see.

I have 20 replays on my SD card. They are mostly replays of my Falco, and Ness. There's definitely some great footage in them, however, I'll have to watch them first. I'd feel bad to have you guys weed through them for the best replays. I'll put up the rest of the replays, without looking them over, if you guys want to check them out regardless.

If you guys could PLEASE put this on youtube, via capture card, I'd REALLY appreciate it! I have a capture card myself, but for whatever reason I can't get the picture to show up on my family's computer (which is near the TV). I'm hoping it's their computer and not my capture card.

Thanks guys!! :D

Both matches are Orca (Falco) vs Alcy1 (Peach)

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?rymy1ikdzwi (1st match)

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?wlmtbgjudwm (2nd match)

I don't have any footage on the interwebz of my Falco in action. It'd be nice for people to see my gameplay.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I have some good videos from Hackfest. I'll see if I can get them uploaded asap.

 

[bob-e]

Videos are up, Orca.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EGcD3mNyes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdnLCZW3JF4

 

[Dan_X]

Wow thanks Bob-e!!! That was really fast! I appreciate it a ton!! ;D

I have some good videos from Hackfest. I'll see if I can get them uploaded asap.

nice! submit them here and I'll add them to the OP

 

[RPGsFTW]

Because our posts were set aside to the Dedede forum, I'm bringing back up the discussion about Falco's Nair, which is what I was talking about in the first place!

Quoting Viet from out PM/page comment:

"yo it looks like bio moved our posts in the D3 thread in the rush to get the thread back on-topic from D3 (even though your posts really don't do much w/ D3 lmao).

here was my planned response (posting it on the D3 thread wouldn't really help now would it?):

"We could revert Falco's Nair ALR to 9, and it's only at an amazing 7 frame ALR now anyway, not too drastic of a revert.

We could also give all his hitbox's transcendent priority if priority is really an issue. It'll trade-hits with all moves now instead.

Also seeing this:

One could easily shift the hitbox's inward a bit and/or even reduce hitbox size, which even with a reduction of 1 Scalar on all hitboxes would likely be more than enough.

Feel free to propose any individual or combination of these options."

I find his opinions to sound like some pretty solid ideas, change-wise, to Falco's Nair. And, unfortunately, I don't "think" I have any videos of him using the Nair repeatedly, but I do have some vids of SK92 that everyone should watch. After looking over Falco's hitbubbles, I feel that it wouldn't hurt to tone down the size, priority, something(!), of his attacks. They all look pretty nicely sized.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96LmQEsEUjM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPjNnPDqKFM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u827AjWkO9Q

*Note, the videos may be from GSH2, but as far as I'd assume, Falco's Nair probably hasn't been touched anyway. =P

 

[Thunderhorse+]

You're correct in your assumption that nair was not changed .

Now that I am part of the WBR though, I suppose I should make my stance on the issue clear.

First and foremost, it would do well to remember what the new WBR's policy on balance changes are. That being, a change should now only be made under one of three conditions:

1. The aspect in question is obviously and blatantly overcentralizing to the character's metagame. A good example is D3's bair and Marth's SHDF, both of which could shut down a number if the cast through just using those moves. A more relevant example considering the topic is Falco's old SHDL which could also singlehandedly shut down a good chunk of the cast.

2. The aspect in question had an undesired side effect or did not work in the manner in which it was intended. Jigglypuff's new u-throw comes to mind.

3. The aspect in question is an infinite or very long-lasting loop that works on a number of the cast and that leads to either a very high accumulation of damage or loss of a stock.

Falco's nair has never been, to my knowledge, part of and infinite or loop, so that rules out #3. Any changes that have been made to it have worked in the desired manner, so #2 goes out the window. You probably want to argue for #1, but the nair being completely overcentralizing is simply not true. It singlehandedly shuts down a grand total of 0 characters. Hell, it's not his most central move (lasers) or even his best aerial (dair). You would be better off trying to make a case for either one of those two than you would for Falco's nair.

Don't get me wrong, nair is a very good aerial (though worse than dair/bair), and it definately has its niche that it can fill nicely (it is Falco's best shield poking aerial and a great cross-up attack that can be followed up with nicely given it's autocancel and low natural endlag). But let's entertain for a minute that the WBR had its old balance change policy. I recall at least 2 complaints of yours about the nair: that it could combo into whatever it wanted (nair->usmash in particular frustrated you), and its priority, shared with a good number of Falco's moves. On the first point, other characters can do falling multi-hit attacks into more potent kill moves, such as Fox's fair->usmash and G&W's nair->dsmash (which was possible even in vBrawl). Falco's nair is hardley unique in that respect, and isn't even the most deadly of the ones that are still in the game. Dealing with priority, it's true that Falco has very good priority...but next to no true disjoints. In a game where most likely a little under than half the cast has some sort of disjointed aerial (usually by way of sword, pikmin, turtle, or silly coding). Characters like DK also have just as good priority, but like Falco, he extends his hurtbox as well. In that respect, Falco in general falls a bit above just average as far as priorty is concerned with most of his attacks (barring his true disjoints: lasers and shine). Nair itself, as mentioned by another poster whom I've forgotten, mentioned that Falco's nair only really has range in front of him (give or take. For as bad as his fair is, his nair has nothing on his fair as far as forward range is concerned...or even most other fairs).

But that is all hypothetical anyway. I don't think Falco's nair is so overpowered that is needs to be changed right now. The most important thing for the WBR right now is changing as little as possible to establish a metagame, which has been a growing problem for Brawl+ and a source of frustration for potential Brawl+ players. First and foremost, Veril wishes us to keep to this mentality rigidly. When we have an established metagame and we have a little more leeway for balance changes, I would be happy to sit down and talk with you about potential nair changes (though I still don't see a need for it to be changed). I've been pushing against a shine buff Cape thought of for the very same reason, and perhaps we could work out some sort of trade off between the two to please both sides.

But right now, Falco's nair is not nearly broken enough to warrant any change. I do not see any need to alter it in any way.

Wow, this is the last time I write a dissertation on an iPhone X_X.

 

[Alex 615]

A few friendlies from Pound 4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjU2sSVh7i8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etlwmZmttqY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4KAJCw10xU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS3glre06X4

All these games, along with the tourney set that should eventually show up on JCaesar's account are from day 1, when I was so tired from the trip that I could barely keep my eyes open. The number outright stupid mistakes, both in decision making and execution are sickening.
/sleepjohns

But I figured I'd post them anyway, since Falco+ videos seem to be rare.

 

[VietGeek]

Bump~

Does anyone know what frame Brawl+ Falco's Shine's Hitbox comes out? I need to verify this information for something I'm working on.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Frame 8 for the hitbox. Frame 1 reflection.

Frame 4 hitbox in vBrawl in the rare event you might need it .