EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[Van.]

Hey, how can I improve my samus when I don't have anyone to practice against?

...............

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

Hey, how can I improve my samus when I don't have anyone to practice against?

You live in Florida, you can find someone to practice against.

 

[Van.]

I have a question for HugS

If anyone else knows the answer, feel free to post it. in pp's thread a few weeks ago HugS remarked that he had trouble dealing with zhu's laser--> shinegrab, lasergrab, and laser-->shine-->aerial mixups. My question is what does shine grab-shine aerial add to that mixup? Like what would samus do differently between shinegrab and shine retreating aerial if she knew which one falco was going to do? Doesn't upb OoS beat both?

 

[AntoPark]

Hey guys, the **** do I do about turnips?

 

[Strong Badam]

my ***** anto

 

[McNinja]

...............

Lol I'm not always with you. I'm talking about like when I have a half hour to kill. What can I do with a few minutes? Isn't playing against CPU bad?

 

[Pi]

anto turnips are a *****, don't let her pull them tbh
zone her so she can't pull turnips and has to do other things, then when you get that hit in follow up safely because when she has a turnip she's so much harder to deal with
if she does get a turnip, i'm partial to catching it just because it neutralizes the thing, whereas if u swat it away it ****in bounces up and comes back down and hits u again
just remember that if she goes to pull one , she can't grab u out of shield, so run up in her face and start pressuring her shield
just don't let her pull the darn things

@van ima let hugs field that one if he frequents this thread, though he does namesearch so...HugS lol

 

[Van.]

Lol I'm not always with you

well i'm always with you... <3

but i khint that Pi's advice is pretty good, just one hour of focused video study can be more fruitful than, say... III hours of mindlessly playing cpu's, or working on something silly like SWD. I mean even if you were a genius of effort like Rock Lee and manged to stretch it into 3.14 hours vs. cpu's, i'm convinced one hour of video study study would be better.

Also: HugS

 

[AntoPark]

anto turnips are a *****, don't let her pull them tbh
zone her so she can't pull turnips and has to do other things, then when you get that hit in follow up safely because when she has a turnip she's so much harder to deal with
if she does get a turnip, i'm partial to catching it just because it neutralizes the thing, whereas if u swat it away it ****in bounces up and comes back down and hits u again
just remember that if she goes to pull one , she can't grab u out of shield, so run up in her face and start pressuring her shield
just don't let her pull the darn things

Holy ****...the best way to deal with them is to...not deal with them. My mind has been opened, thank you.

 

[Pluplue]

well i'm always with you... <3

but i khint that Pi's advice is pretty good, just one hour of focused video study can be more fruitful than, say... III hours of mindlessly playing cpu's, or working on something silly like SWD. I mean even if you were a genius of effort like Rock Lee and manged to stretch it into 3.14 hours vs. cpu's, i'm convinced one hour of video study study would be better.

Also: HugS

ic wat u did thar

 

[Pi]

i don't know
what to say

except for that i just tested to see which of samus moves hits the most below the edge
and the results were
dtilt & utilt > dsmash > dangled fsmash (the most dangle u can go, there are 2 types, the lesser of the downward angled ones don't go below, the furthest down angled does) > d angled ftilt (i only tried this once cause i g2g work i'll try it some more to see if there are more angles)

lol dangle

no sleep bout to get my 40hrs lets do itttttt!!

 

[christianizcool]

Alright guys, been working on my Samus.
Got a question though: When should I ftilt as opposed to dtilt and vice versa? It seems they have the same exact range (I may be wrong though). And ftilt knocks them back, while dtilt knocks up. Aside from that, I am having a hard time knowing when to use which.

Any input is appreciated, thanks

 

[Geist]

Well you can't really Ftilt out of a CC. Ftilt has further range, so it's more of a footsies tool to safely poke from a distance. Dtilt has that gross lag after the hit so if you whiff it your opponent has the chance to inflict pain.
Dtilt sets up for combos though, and imo it's just a better move than Dsmash when it's CC'd since it has that more reliable trajectory to it. (Dsmash is obv better for kills though)

Also consider Ftilt can be angled. Up angled ftilts are sweet against Peach and Jiggs and other characters that like their aerial moves.


So yeah CC dtilt stuff when you get hit, use ftilt for spacing safely.
I guess I'll also note that I personally love dtilt against fast fallers. I'd much rather use dtilt than ftilt if I think I can pull it off while facing a fast faller. Personallyyyy

 

[Strong Badam]

I was ****ing around with Samus today. I found walking and wd back -> tilts and stuff to be really effective at close range, U-tiltd when I expected a grab. Pri good.

 

[HugS™]

I have a question for HugS

If anyone else knows the answer, feel free to post it. in pp's thread a few weeks ago HugS remarked that he had trouble dealing with zhu's laser--> shinegrab, lasergrab, and laser-->shine-->aerial mixups. My question is what does shine grab-shine aerial add to that mixup? Like what would samus do differently between shinegrab and shine retreating aerial if she knew which one falco was going to do? Doesn't upb OoS beat both?

LOL, sup guys.

Well, the issue lies in the set-up to the shinegrab/shine retreating aerial. The reason zhu's laser mixups are hard to deal with is because when a falco approaches with lasers, you're dealing with a move that gives no after-lag to the person using the laser.

Where an aerial gives you a window to upB between them landing an aerial on top of your shield and landing on the floor and shielding, the laser approach doesn't give you the same luxury of time to make a reactive decision. Furthermore, the options out of a landing laser are more numerous, if not, they're at least a lot quicker.

What I'm saying is that yes, you CAN upB most anything to beat it, but there's more guesswork involved in upBing a laser approach rather than an aerial approach. So you have to pre-emptively upB many times to catch them. Many questions arise in a split second:

1. Is this his actual laser approach, or is he gonna back out to bait the upB?
2. He lasered me, is he gonna roll away, sidestep, or grab when he lands? Or maybe I should stay in my shield because he will shine first. Should I delay my upB or do it immediately?

That's the hard part about it. You kinda have to know your opponent's habits in order to make proper use of your upB. In other easier situations, you'd be allowed to simply react.

 

[HugS™]

Alright guys, been working on my Samus.
Got a question though: When should I ftilt as opposed to dtilt and vice versa? It seems they have the same exact range (I may be wrong though). And ftilt knocks them back, while dtilt knocks up. Aside from that, I am having a hard time knowing when to use which.

Any input is appreciated, thanks

Ftilt is more of a spacing tool. Dtilt is a combo/damage tool. Idk if the range is actually the same, but the afterlag of both moves is not similar. Therefore, ftilt works better to poke and keep your opponent out of range, dtilt works best for a guaranteed hits, though I'm sure some people like to gamble with these stronger moves.

 

[christianizcool]

Alright thanks a lot for the help you guys! I really like Samus, hopefully I get good with her ^_^

 

[Van.]

LOL, sup guys.

Well, the issue lies in the set-up to the shinegrab/shine retreating aerial. The reason zhu's laser mixups are hard to deal with is because when a falco approaches with lasers, you're dealing with a move that gives no after-lag to the person using the laser.

Where an aerial gives you a window to upB between them landing an aerial on top of your shield and landing on the floor and shielding, the laser approach doesn't give you the same luxury of time to make a reactive decision. Furthermore, the options out of a landing laser are more numerous, if not, they're at least a lot quicker.

What I'm saying is that yes, you CAN upB most anything to beat it, but there's more guesswork involved in upBing a laser approach rather than an aerial approach. So you have to pre-emptively upB many times to catch them. Many questions arise in a split second:

1. Is this his actual laser approach, or is he gonna back out to bait the upB?
2. He lasered me, is he gonna roll away, sidestep, or grab when he lands? Or maybe I should stay in my shield because he will shine first. Should I delay my upB or do it immediately?

That's the hard part about it. You kinda have to know your opponent's habits in order to make proper use of your upB. In other easier situations, you'd be allowed to simply react.

So the mixup is about what happens after the laser, not as much what happens after the shine?

I've heard both that you can and that you can't up b between shine and aerial/grab, i think you can, but Im unsure.

Would a falco who can't shine grab consistently be able to keep you adequately guessing with just laser--> shine-->aerial and lasergrab, or would laser shine grab also be necessary?

I appreciate the quick response, and I'm sorry if I misunderstood it.

 

[leffen]

Why dont you just powershield the laser?

 

[Van.]

^Its impossible to consistently input a button on reaction within a twentieth of a second time window.

 

[AntoPark]

It's kind of like this, but with powershielding.
http://i.imgur.com/7Nanx.gif

 

[Geist]

if you can even powershield even a few times, it becomes more discouraging for falco to shoot lasers, especially if you can follow up with it.

 

[Van.]

It's kind of like this, but with powershielding.
http://i.imgur.com/7Nanx.gif

lololol so true

the first thing we learn as falcos is to stick to our laser pressure tho'

 

[HugS™]

Why dont you just powershield the laser?

Because you're not always gonna be at a long enough range to powershield a falco that's trying to laser you. Because it's beyond the limits of today's metagame to consistently powershield lasers at a distance where you can also be grabbed. You can learn it and do it, yeah, but there are more practical things to learn, like how to read and exploit habits.

I'd rather deal with the issue more practically, and if the metagame seems to be progressing in that direction, then you can learn it, but only as long as it doesn't interfere with learning more practical things. Like, if you're going to depend on consistently powershielding lasers at grab range rather than learning how to read and exploit their habits at this range, then you're not being very efficient IMO.

 

[Pi]

laser...pressure...?

 

[leffen]

"long enough range to powershield" ~_~? You do realize that the laser comes out before he lands is so all SHLs are always powershieldable.

and all that other stuff is very true, but the very same kind of thinking held true when wavedashing was new. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't use it or at least try to implement it to your game.

Especially since in your case, you were shielding the laser either way, then why not try to powershield it? The reward completely rules out him doing lasers and failure puts you at roughly the same disadvantage.

If reading and exploiting habits is all you do and you dont focus on trying to limit your opponent or beating their RPS entirely then why arent you playing Bowser? And you know, exploiting the laser shl range is imo, best done by removing their best option by, you know, powershielding.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If you went to powershield a laser like that and they did something like dair, wouldn't you get hit and combo'd?

 

[Pi]

samus edgeguarding hitboxes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrfEkufDQDQ


leffen ur pretty cute r u single?

 

[leffen]

Since he said grab range, which in my mind means that the falco will land in grab range at the end of his SH. In that case, you have plenty of time to decide if its an laser approach (it takes 14+ frames to come out) or a dair/nair.

You can also WD back / walk back out of his Dair/Nair range if you have the stage to do it so that you can punish his aerial (if he chooses to do that) and his lasers (chasing with a approaching SHL when the opponent is baiting you by retreating is a extremely effective tactic if you arent good at powershielding, where it instead becomes a rare mixup)

edit: her edgeguarding hitboxes are so much worse than I thought :/

 

[Ørn]

Good vid. It's nothing new, but I'm sure that kind of information would be helpful to new players. Though I am a little surprised by how low nair hits. Still kind of a second rate edgeguard move though.

It's a shame bair hits too high to effectively edgeguard with, that **** hits so hard. Maybe if you're sure they won't sweetspot.

 

[Pi]

yea would be nice to sweet spot bair edgeguard, i didn't even bother testing though since it's such an iffy move..for edgeguarding at least

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Anything less than 20 frames and you are reacting based on the spacing not the animation, btw

 

[ThePrime]

If falcos shl approach and you know from the spacing of it that they're going to shinegrab/grab then just nair oos. The hitbox on it is perfect for halting that kind of approach, and isn't as punishable as a missed up-b. But since falco is basically lagless out of shl he can simply dash back or do some mixup that still requires you to guess to some extent.

 

[Violence]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrfEkufDQDQ

This is pretty ****, Pi.

HugS, can you react to the laser hitting your shield and preemptively use a safer, less punishable ooS option, like shnair out of shield, or wd back out of shield?

 

[Pi]

if the falco SHL into grab/shine range
he also has the option of shielding any of ur OoS options
there's no end all for if he does that

if u think he's going to shine/grab then UB him
if u think he's going to shield, then shieldgrab him, or wavedash into jabbing positon, or something to counter his shield

being in shield is not a good thing any more =|

 

[KirbyKaze]

Pi, have you tried the thing I told you about regarding waiting for the opponent to stop rising from moves like dair and up tilt so you can get a better trajectory?

The more I use it, the more I realize how ridiculous it actually is.

In Fox dittos if you up tilt > bair on illusions while they're rising, they can almost always recover super high if they DI well but if you delay the bair so they don't get the momentum it's often hoggable vs the same DI. It really is all that. No lie. It makes 2-step launch > horizontal combos way, way more efficient for killing.

 

[Geist]

That's awesome and I can't believe I've never heard of/ thought of that at all.

 

[Dobs1007]

Good stuff Pi whats with the new name change lol

 

[KirbyKaze]

That's awesome and I can't believe I've never heard of/ thought of that at all.

When you start using the rising momentum to pop them a bit higher so you can combo something like aerial > f-smash where you normally couldn't the foundations of combos literally come apart at the seams and we get all sorts of opportunities you never knew you had.

It gets even crazier when you use horizontal momentum to mitigate the effects of DI. In that same aerial > f-smash example, nairing them into the f-smash caused them to be already moving slightly to the side, so the f-smash gets to build off horizontal momentum and thus cheats to get more useful KB.

Opportunities everywhere oh my god!

Sadly, Samus is not one of the characters most likely to take advantage of this sort of thing. She kind of blows at taking advantage of primarily-air-combo-oriented developments because of her massive jump. But that doesn't mean she can't do it period.

 

[Pi]

i haven't actively been trying that out KK
i'm not one to land dair/utilts a whole lot lol
i'll keep it in mind the next time i play

right now though i'm trying to get into the habit of grabbing out of them when applicable

and going along that same thought process...what about when samus do that bomb/nair thing? is that perhaps allowing people to recover safer because the bomb knocks them in a direction? should we just be nairing?

[edit]
just tested to see if utilt will hit a fox sweet spot UB
process wass;
fox, release edge, and fall for 34 frames
start his UB on frame 35 (no directions beind held)
on frame 29 of his moving UB, is the peak of his climb, after this the UB stops and he starts to tumble far below reach
so i timed samus Utilt to hit at it's lowest point, frame 17, to hit exactly when he is at the peak (frame 29)
and it did hit him

some variables i'd rather not test;
having him just 'fall' probably isn't perfect, because he accelerates more and more, so shining some where in between his decent and trying different spacing that way may change how close i can actually get to the ledge

utilt vs. this ss UB is already very close so even a couple pixels variance could determine him getting hit from not getting hit

BUT within reason, fox is going to have an extremely hard time out spacing Utilt with his UB, if u miss it it's more likely to u mistiming it
though in our defense, it's only at it's lowest point for 1 frame before it ends =\
fsmash stays out longer, but doesn't reach nearly as low

also, fox UB is really ****t in terms of priority, if u look at all of samus hitboxes aside from her nair it should be easy to outspace his UB w/ them so u don't trade