EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[bubbaking]

i'm not saying its' an awful matchup that should be fretted over, but at the very least i think it requires more know-how on the samus part to fight the links than it does on the links part
since a lot of what we're use to being able to do gets negated

also inb4;40ppp

Yeah, I feel you. Usually, those Links can go on playing the same they usually do while Samuses have to adapt. Those shields are a big problem since they can effectively shut down most of Samus's projectile game. Btw, what does that last line "also inb4;40ppp" mean?

I dunno if Bubba's trolling or just ignorant.

The matchup chart is a very tentative and highly debated thing. You can't really refer to it as end all be all information.

Same goes for the Samus guide, a lot of the info there is outdated and unsuited to the modern metagame.

In addition, Samuses have such diverse styles, it's hard to come up with a sweeping statement regarding all of us. It makes it hard to discuss matchups.

My top 5 worst matchups is probably:

1. Sheik
2. Puff
3. Ganon/Falcon
4. Marth
5. Falco

Though Link is pretty hard too. I'm pretty sure you can edgeguard him, I just haven't figured out how yet.

Well, I would think that you are in fact trolling me since your summary of Samus's worst matchups basically said the same exact stuff I did, down to the Link. Anyway, I was mistaken and thought that Pi was listing his discussion off the charts, but yes, I agree with your statements. To edgeguard Link, would it be possible to lay bombs off the edge of the stage and cause him to screw up the sweetspot?

Strike FoD? Really? I'd think that Samus would love to go there...I expected FD & Dreamland off for Samus and FoD and Yoshis off for Peach. Though I suppose if the Samus really hates Battlefield's ledge, they could grind it out on Dreamland...

Hrm. Violence what do you think? Or whoever else posts on Samus boards haha

Well, I wouldn't really mind the boost in life expectancy from Dreamland since Peach doesn't really kill off the top. As for FoD, Pi pretty much covered why Peach can potentially **** on that stage, although it is probably true that Samuses could expand on that stage a bit more.

bubba has expressed some pretty confident opinions which i haven't completley agree'd with but he's also siad plenty of stuff which makes me think he has at least a decent grasp on the game and how it functions

i would say though that he might wanna be slightly less blunt w/ some of the things he says, cause just the way he says thhem comes accross slightly arrogant/know-it-all-y

Thanks for the feedback Pi! I'll try to tone it down a bit. I'm not exactly certain how I come across to some people but I definitely don't want to seem arrogant, so if you could continue the positive criticism I would greatly appreciate it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AIm3tYL0sY

This basically sums up what I think of this matchup.



Also, Bubba, can you please change your font color? Seriously, it's insanely hard to read.

Got ya covered! I guess it's back to standard white... :/ Anyway, I posted that second comment on ur vid. Don't really agree with that guy when he says u were playing gayly.

 

[MonkUnit]

inb4;40ppp means "in before 40 posts per page." you can set it up so you can view 40PPP instead of the default 10(?) in the User CP.

 

[bubbaking]

So how do I change how many PPP I can see?

 

[MonkUnit]

User CP -> Edit Options -> Number of Posts to Show Per Page

 

[bubbaking]

Thank you!

 

[Violence]

The first comment is me >_>

 

[Pi]

violence i don't think, vs that peach any way, that you needed to camp to that extent

in some friendlies i would try exploring zoning her so that she can't pull a turnip w/o risking you WD in and punishing it

obv. in tourney you use what you know works

but i think there's more to the the peach matchup than camping her

i spoke to hugs about the peach mathcup, because i wasn't confident/didn't know how to challenge her float

missiles is obv. a good safe way, but he also mentioned fair, which often leads into something else

you also can, if ur forced to shield, UB most of peach's stuff

and if u ever can force her to shield, u can ftilt her shield all day free of punish iirc, and force her OoS actions which u can pick up on and punish

i know this was tourney, but if you haven't, try practicing some less campy strats vs peach in friendlies at least

 

[Violence]

Problem is, there aren't any Peaches around here...

 

[bubbaking]

The first comment is me >_>

..........................................................................

Edit: Well, I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think you have to blame yourself for trying to win.....that's just my opinion, though.

 

[bubbaking]

violence i don't think, vs that peach any way, that you needed to camp to that extent

in some friendlies i would try exploring zoning her so that she can't pull a turnip w/o risking you WD in and punishing it

obv. in tourney you use what you know works

but i think there's more to the the peach matchup than camping her

i spoke to hugs about the peach mathcup, because i wasn't confident/didn't know how to challenge her float

missiles is obv. a good safe way, but he also mentioned fair, which often leads into something else

you also can, if ur forced to shield, UB most of peach's stuff

and if u ever can force her to shield, u can ftilt her shield all day free of punish iirc, and force her OoS actions which u can pick up on and punish

i know this was tourney, but if you haven't, try practicing some less campy strats vs peach in friendlies at least

This is just me, but I feel like having a charge shot stored (even if it's not fully) kinda deters Peaches from floating so much. If it doesn't, then let it rip, I guess?

 

[Violence]

I had to play Riddlebox in bracket too. I apologized to him as well. He shrugged it off, but I'm sure we both would've enjoyed some more entertaining sets.

To me, it's not about playing to win, there are many other ways I could've played to win, to be honest.

I think it may have to do with a big part of my smash development.

When I was in college, the best player around was Camper Bob. For those who don't know, Camper Bob is a very old Peach player who would basically turnip camp and dsmash spam. You'll notice after the first Dsmash, I avoid that crap like the plague.

As a fledgling Sheik main who had started on the path to Samus, back in 2006-2008, I just became increasingly frustated at how every shield hit was punishable by djc dsmash oos(not the case, of course, but my spacing was terrible back then).

I think I just grew to think there's just this area around Peach I shouldn't be in. You can see it in the video on Dream Land where I dair Peach, hit the L cancel, and instead of following up with an pivot fsmash or pivot dsmash or pivot ftilt or up B, I run away and start spamming again.

It's pretty much the only matchup where I do it, too. I haven't had a Peach main in my region to play against consistently and learn the nitty gritty of the matchup, I've just always thought, Peach can't approach, so if you force her approach, you can win.

 

[Pi]

hmmm that's hard to overcome w/o having peach players to play against

ur best bet i would say is to watch videos of samus v. peach (lol) and look at other ways of shutting peach down

if camping is working, then by all means do it, but it'd be good to go ahead and study other ways of fighting her just in case a peach player is able to work around ur camping better

so find a video of samus vs. peach and look at how they interact w/ each other

look at howt he samus approachs, when he approachs, and if it works or not

if it does, try to understand why it works, what the peach could have done to counter it, and then what the samus player coud have done to counter that.

if it doesn't work, whhy didn't it work. did he approach too soon? or at a poor angle? could he have baited the response then punished it?

personlly my strat when i fight peach is to zone them as i said earlier, instead of giving hem any type of space to work with, i try to make them think they have room to pull a turnip then punish it.

from that i attempt to apply pressure and outspace w/ samus long legs

peach does have some good combo breaks in her nair and cc dsmash, but these can be epxloited as well


idk, just throwing some stuff out here, for now you have a streategy that works so i'm not advocating changing it, but if you were interested in knowing how to go about fighting peaches in different ways i thought i'd offer some advice

 

[Geist]

I sort of have a pocket peach violence lmao
We haven't played in forever.

 

[Violence]

You have like a pocket everything. Get@me. I could use the practice.

 

[Rat]

Peach really needs to turnips to approach. But it's been awhile since I fought a peach though.

My top 5 bad match-ups:
Zelda - Holy **** this is a bad match-up.
Shiek - 7-3, maybe 8-2. Still finding new tricks. Shiek just poops on samus. Risk/Reward is just all screwed up in Shieks favor.
Ganon - I watched plup dismantle some amazing ganons. Spaceballs does well against G.Vice. I need to learn there secrets.
Falcon/Jiggs - These are both pretty close. 6-4?

Good Match-ups:
ICs - double po: UpB wrecks 'em. Missiles, and bairs are good too. Bombs are real good. Nana just dies. Single po: Missile and Ftilt camp till he dies.
Pikachu - Not gonna lie, pikachu has to work really hard to beat samus.
Mewtwo - He's got some stuff, but he's too big.

 

[bubbaking]

I had to play Riddlebox in bracket too. I apologized to him as well. He shrugged it off, but I'm sure we both would've enjoyed some more entertaining sets.

To me, it's not about playing to win, there are many other ways I could've played to win, to be honest.

I think it may have to do with a big part of my smash development.

When I was in college, the best player around was Camper Bob. For those who don't know, Camper Bob is a very old Peach player who would basically turnip camp and dsmash spam. You'll notice after the first Dsmash, I avoid that crap like the plague.

As a fledgling Sheik main who had started on the path to Samus, back in 2006-2008, I just became increasingly frustated at how every shield hit was punishable by djc dsmash oos(not the case, of course, but my spacing was terrible back then).

I think I just grew to think there's just this area around Peach I shouldn't be in. You can see it in the video on Dream Land where I dair Peach, hit the L cancel, and instead of following up with an pivot fsmash or pivot dsmash or pivot ftilt or up B, I run away and start spamming again.

It's pretty much the only matchup where I do it, too. I haven't had a Peach main in my region to play against consistently and learn the nitty gritty of the matchup, I've just always thought, Peach can't approach, so if you force her approach, you can win.

It's also the development of the meta, and not only the meta of Melee or even Smash but the meta of almost ALL fighting games, in general. Playing incredibly defensive and camping the livin' daylights out of your opponent is extremely effective. In Melee, Fox and Falco (and even Sheik) can run around shooting lasers (needles) and punishing attempts to approach them w/ ease. In SF, it's the turtle charge chars, waiting for u to screw up and end the block string so they can bust out a combo>super/ultra in ur face. Heck, even in Pokemon (kind of a combat game, lolz), the meta has shifted from speed and interesting abilities to bulk and power with entry hazards always out to punish switches (analagous to approaching).

Basically, it may be gay or uninteresting, but I can't blame anyone for trying to camp me out. I feel like they're just flowing with the advancement of the metagame.

Peach really needs to turnips to approach. But it's been awhile since I fought a peach though.

My top 5 bad match-ups:
Zelda - Holy **** this is a bad match-up.
Shiek - 7-3, maybe 8-2. Still finding new tricks. Shiek just poops on samus. Risk/Reward is just all screwed up in Shieks favor.
Ganon - I watched plup dismantle some amazing ganons. Spaceballs does well against G.Vice. I need to learn there secrets.
Falcon/Jiggs - These are both pretty close. 6-4?

Good Match-ups:
ICs - double po: UpB wrecks 'em. Missiles, and bairs are good too. Bombs are real good. Nana just dies. Single po: Missile and Ftilt camp till he dies.
Pikachu - Not gonna lie, pikachu has to work really hard to beat samus.
Mewtwo - He's got some stuff, but he's too big.

Zelda, really? Wow, I'm surprised. I have trouble w/ her too, but I thought it was just me being stupid and falling for all her zoning tricks. Funnily enough, I actually get trapped in shield by that woman. Not literally, but after seeing so many SHFFL fair>bair>DJ fair all w/out touching the ground, my ability to rationalize shuts down and I just think "that Zelda just hit me from three sides with attacks that could kill me!" (T_T)

As for Jiggs, funnily enough, I actually like facing off against Jiggs but everyone I know says I'm weird and that it's a really bad MU. Somehow, my zoning usually works but I may just be playing around w/ bad Jiggs over here on LI.

I feel like Pikachu's kinda dangerous w/ that high mobility and that threatening usmash but I guess at your level, it doesn't matter so much. Any tips? Mewtwo IS too big. He's got legit combos on fast-fallers and floaties alike, especially ones that end in fair on the latter, but it's like *derp* work=nothing.

 

[Rat]

Zelda's not horrendeously bad. I just don't like camping with missiles. Camping with movement and Utilts is fine, just not missiles.

The problem with Pikachu's upsmash is that she can't really combo into it all that well. It's not hard to stay out of range. She also has a tough time approaching samus.

 

[bubbaking]

So, I should utilize my ground game to zone Pika out while refraining from taking to the air?

 

[Pi]

i would say yea, my limited pikachu experience lead me to believe ftilt was pretty good for shutting him down

 

[bubbaking]

Next topic: Samus vs Falco :S
Specific Q: Is it possible to react to a Falco's grab fast enough to eliminate his lasergrab and laser>shinegrab options?

I feel like it isn't. 7 frames....(._.).....but is there some kinda lag somewhere that helps Samus out?

 

[Rat]

So, I should utilize my ground game to zone Pika out while refraining from taking to the air?

Sort of. At low percent that's pretty good. CC is great. Utilt can work. Bomb is nice if they mix up their timing/spacing a lot. I like the spot at the tip of her SHFFl nair range.

At high percent platforms get better good. Her aerials are good for combos not kills. At like 100% you're not worried to much about them Uairing you off the stage. So slipping around while looking for an opening is nice.

Also Her best kill spot is when you are getting off the ledge. Similar to how fox can fish for an Upsmash there.



Edit: Avg reaction speed is about 20 frames.

 

[Pi]

samus vs. falco

biggest advice

do not get frustrated, one hit can lead to death from the bird, so that's all you look for the whole game

as long as you land and follow up your hits well you should be ok

but if u get frustrated, he's going to win

 

[McNinja]

I'm having problem vs. Falco. my missles are almost useless against him. Whenever I shoot one, falco just shines it and he's too far away for me to punish the reflection lag. Any advice? Oh and how should samus deal with lazers?

 

[Geist]

Start zoning your missiles more appropriately. Experience will teach you when it's more suitable to shoot a missile to catch the falco off-guard. It's not really something that can be solved with a few magic words of advice unfortunately. There's no solve-all - just experiment with different situations to see what you can get away with. A lot of the times you'd be surprised to see how often that your own apprehension is the only thing keeping you from shooting at the right times.

As for avoiding lasers, platforms should be your main getaway device for this. You just have to use them wisely, or else you'll put falco in an advantageous position. Using platforms also ties in with that missile problem. Standing homing missiles from an higher platform, or platform missile cancelling can bait the falco into approaching you or shining your missile.
IIRC a well timed dash attack can destroy reflected missiles and cancels your attack animation.

Along with wavelands, wd OoS is good for inching closer to falco. Not so much an awesome tool against rapid spam though.

And of course powershielding. It's really not as hard as they make it out to be. I find that once you reflect a whole bunch into their face they stop (at least mindlessly) spamming them. Kinda like how shutting them down with an UpB OoS stops them from attempts to pillar you. Most of the time.

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, what Geist said. Just make sure you don't take to platforms right when Falco's running under them since his underneath game is pretty scary. Also, I need to work on the consistency but I'm pretty sure I've managed to dash attack THRU shined missiles and hit falco. U could probaby CC the reflected missiles at low %s to hit him out of the shine lag, but I've never tried that (think I will now :D). Once Falco's offstage, he's done-ions (rhymes w/ onions in case ur wondering ). Utilt (for gimping) and upB oos are probably Samus's best tools against Falco.

Oh, and another thing I often do against Falcos that are shine-reflect happy is continually full hop MC. I'm not sure if a SH can clear enough height to avoid the reflected missiles, need to try that out, but a lot of the time, after continually shining missiles that blatantly miss on the way back, they start looking for another way to get in. These are just things that have worked for me. As Geist said earlier, building experience in the MU is the best way to deal w/ things.

 

[Violence]

Use bombs wisely.

They're the only thing he can't dair through.

 

[McNinja]

Wow, I didn't think of the dash attack being used to stop missiles. Definately going to have to try this. Thank you for the help!

 

[MonkUnit]

Dash attack a reflected missile does indeed destroy the missile and cancel your dash attack. Unsure on what other moves Samus can use to stop her own missiles.

 

[bubbaking]

Does the dash attack vary in strength at all during its execution?

 

[Pi]

^yea
has a phase of strong, and a phase of weak
they both probably cancel out a missile

 

[bubbaking]

Hmmm, I need to go back and see if I can do it again, but I was certain that the strong part of the dash attack would not be cancelled by the missile and would instead continue as a full-fledged attack. I may be wrong, though...

 

[Pi]

pretty sure they cancel out, most ground moves do 'clank' with missiles
you yourself mentioned fsmash by marth, which is undoubtedly stronger, getting cancelled by a missile

 

[bubbaking]

Well, actually, if you look at that post, I said if Marth is close enough, he can smash THRU the missile and hit Samus and indeed this is true. It's happened to me too many times... @_@ Not sure how the hitbox strength/priority varies w/ time and distance, though.

 

[Geist]

I vividly remember being able to ftilt missiles in samus dittos, but since the reflector actually gives projectiles an extra oomph, I don't think you can ftilt them after they're shined.
Too lazy to test though.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

You can dash attack through them though, and you won't have any lag after.

 

[bubbaking]

To clarify, Spaceballs, you're talking about Samus or Marth?

 

[Pi]

probably both

EVERYTHING clanks w/ missiles

they have ****ty priority or something, you jab them, or fsmash them
knee them, w/e

aerials will go through cause they can't clank

but ground moves usually if not always do clank

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

I was talking about Samus being able to after they get powered-up from being reflected. But Marth can probably do it too, pretty much all his moves go through missiles except neutral B and side B.

 

[bubbaking]

Weird Q: would Samus be able to gain invincibility by grabbing Falco right before she gets hit by a shined missile?

 

[Pi]

i think grabs just have like transcendent priority

throws have invincibility

not sure on that though

in my experience when that happens u get hit by the missile and falco gets grabbed then knocked to the ground all weird like