EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[Pi]

Do you have to Isai Drop through platforms when Missile Canceling? Couldn't find a clear explanation.

if you're talking about platform canceling missiles (like on PS or YS), then no

if you simply land on a platform from a missile cancel, then probably yes

I believe there is a window in which you can just drop down.

In general, when you are MCing on a platform from below the platform, it's easy to just drop down.

But

Let's say you run off the top middle platform of BF, onto the right platform, and MC there, for some reason idk why it's harder to just drop through, in this case I always Isai drop.

It is not hard to learn, you basically just MC and hold a direction after you input the missile, then when you land wait like 5 frames at least and then you can just rotate your control stick down and you'll drop through.

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

Let's say you run off the top middle platform of BF, onto the right platform, and MC there, for some reason idk why it's harder to just drop through, in this case I always Isai drop.

I think this is exactly what he was asking, and what i was trying to say

 

[Pi]

I think this is exactly what he was asking, and what i was trying to say

ah, okay, was juss making sure though, cause it's hard to determine mc on a platform from another platform vs. the ground, or whatever the hell makes them different

 

[Geist]

Isai dropping is an easy technique to get down naturally. I actually did this before I knew what it was.

 

[Pluplue]

I really dont think isai drop would be that useful. the ONLY time it would be useful is if your opponent is approaching and dropping down 3 frames faster is the only way to defend : P

 

[Geist]

Its always a good thing trimming lag down between transitions, but yeah it's not like it's a game-breaking technique lol

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

pretty sure isai dropping is situational

it's just a tool you have at your disposal

 

[ph00tbag]

The reason you sometimes don't have to Isai drop on a missile cancel is because MCing always defaults to the landing animation you would have had had you not been shooting a missile. When you don't have any downward momentum and you land, there is zero landing animation. You are just standing. But if you have downward momentum, you have four frames of landing, IIRC. It's possible to do this on any platform in the game. All platforms are just at the right height for this or higher. For the higher ones, you just need to time your double jumps.

 

[Rat]

ok i got a bunch of questions: What i'm looking for are short answers. Basically what are your Go-To counters for the following things. (i'm mostly looking for ideas.)



How do you beat...?
-Fox's Top Platform camping?

-Fox's Fullhop Dair?

-Shine on shield wd away (the kind that you can't upB)?

-Fox ledgehogging while you're recovering (usually turns into FF shine DJ bair)?
(I've tried upB, spacing the up B out (bair is 2 big), over shooting the upB (bair is 2 high priority), wall hugging the up b (get shined), grappling the edge (they drop down and shine), grappling the stage (shined again)))

-Shiek's running shield (well just running shield in general)?
This is really one of my biggest problems. If you can only answer 1 question answer this one.

-Shiek who is in their dash attack/running shield/running grab range and is moving around on the ground. (WDing, DDing whatever.)

-When shiek shields your Ftilt then WD in-> Shield, wtf do you do?

-What do you do when Shiek fair->shields you? (you're getting hit by the Fair btw.)

-Ganon's standing/retreating Bairs or Fairs

-Also how do you escape Ganon's low% combos?
(Cause like if he hits me with pretty much anything it's like 40-60% damage + edgeguard.)

-Captain Falcon crossing you up.
(Also this means he's already in your space, ie he's broken the WDback barrier and is in Standing SHNair range or is jumping around your shield.)

-Captain Falcon's Full Jump.
(usually from standing (out of shield) and he is positioning for a Dair, Knee, or DJ waveland->shenanigans. (See SS style (that kind of FJing) )

-How do you approach a laser camping low %age Falco?
(If try to get into the Ftilt/jab zone they do a pivot laser, a FJ->platform camp, or put safe pressure on that zone.
If I try aerial approach's (Missile->Nair/Fair. Platform Waveland Bair (Spaceballs style)) I get CC->shined.
If I try DashAttacking I get CC->Shined.)

How the **** do you edgeguard marth?

 

[Pluplue]

^^^ it sounds like you just have trouble spacing. as for the camping with fox, you just need to inch in up airing and wave dashing forward shielding till he attacks. Then he's in your clutches : P

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

ok i got a bunch of questions: What i'm looking for are short answers. Basically what are your Go-To counters for the following things. (i'm mostly looking for ideas.)



How do you beat...?
-Fox's Top Platform camping?
It's uncounterable since he'll be back down on the ground before you can reach him, but at least you can get him down.

-Fox's Fullhop Dair?
utilt, wd back anything if it's predictable. if the dair comes fast, then shield and up oos.

-Shine on shield wd away (the kind that you can't upB)?
you can wd forward oos and ftilt or just wd back and reset the situation. depends on your opponent

-Fox ledgehogging while you're recovering (usually turns into FF shine DJ bair)?
(I've tried upB, spacing the up B out (bair is 2 big), over shooting the upB (bair is 2 high priority), wall hugging the up b (get shined), grappling the edge (they drop down and shine), grappling the stage (shined again)))
really there's not much you can do since Fox is just gay like that. but you can just grapple very quickly and up-B right before you see the Fox try to shine you. If the Fox gets the timing of the grapple down you're kinda screwed regardless of what you do. your best bet is to try and recover parallel to the stage, try to bait a bair or airdodge-> grapple or something. up-b him out of his bair if you're close enough to the stage. but yeah, Fox is just gayyyyyyyyyyyy.

-Shiek's running shield (well just running shield in general)?
This is really one of my biggest problems. If you can only answer 1 question answer this one.
wd back. wd behind their shield for some mindgames. but really there's not much samus can do against this except try to keep perfect spacing so running up to you and shielding won't be an easy option.

-Shiek who is in their dash attack/running shield/running grab range and is moving around on the ground. (WDing, DDing whatever.)

-When shiek shields your Ftilt then WD in-> Shield, wtf do you do?
same thing as running shields. although you might be able to shieldstab with the up-B if their shield is damaged. wdback and space some jabs or whatever on her shield. not much samus can do

-What do you do when Shiek fair->shields you? (you're getting hit by the Fair btw.)
tech the fair? DI? If you mean at low percents, it's the same as running/wd shields.

-Ganon's standing/retreating Bairs or Fairs
ganon is just gay. pressure him with missiles or something from a distance and approach CAREFULLY. then just make him run out of stage. there really isn't much samus or many characters can do about ganon's retreated aerials.

-Also how do you escape Ganon's low% combos?
(Cause like if he hits me with pretty much anything it's like 40-60% damage + edgeguard.)
dunno what to tell you except don't get hit. or at least don't get hit by a dair for god's sake.

-Captain Falcon crossing you up.
(Also this means he's already in your space, ie he's broken the WDback barrier and is in Standing SHNair range or is jumping around your shield.)
run the **** away and try utilt/ftilt/up-b oos to get him off your back. but there's not much you can do in this matchup to stop CF from running circles around you. you can try missiling at SH height too. Oh yeah, you can do a SH nair, which will beat and possibly interrupt Falcon's aerial, but if he baits or you guess wrong, then you jumped and Falcon will proceed to uair you across the stage.


-Captain Falcon's Full Jump.
(usually from standing (out of shield) and he is positioning for a Dair, Knee, or DJ waveland->shenanigans. (See SS style (that kind of FJing) )
run the **** away and try to get him as he lands.

-How do you approach a laser camping low %age Falco?
(If try to get into the Ftilt/jab zone they do a pivot laser, a FJ->platform camp, or put safe pressure on that zone.
If I try aerial approach's (Missile->Nair/Fair. Platform Waveland Bair (Spaceballs style)) I get CC->shined.
If I try DashAttacking I get CC->Shined.)
you don't have much choice but to ftilt at low percents but if you're confident that he'll continue lasering, you can waveshield oos right next to falco and up-b oos. but just try to interrupt his lasers with a jab or ftilt because everything else you do gets *****.

How the **** do you edgeguard marth?
dsmash or ledgehop nair if he recovers from below. both are pretty risky but you don't really have much better than that. you can also try using bombs. if he's recovering parallel, then missile, force him to fair or use his side-B. hope he messes up because there's not much else you can do.

hope I helped

 

[edgeluca]

How the **** do you edgeguard marth?

For now, this is the only one I have time to answer.
The trick is to drop a bomb right beside the ledge, he'll hit it on the way up and you can either utilt/fsmash/ftilt him immediately after the bomb, or wait till he tries to recover again, his sweetspot will be messed up. The trick is to drop it from a fullhop.
Another thing to do is grab the ledge and nair/bair him as he's approaching it, I do that sometimes.
Or space yourself enough so that down-angled fsmash will him him out of his sweetspot, since I can't stress enough that it has more range than utilt.

 

[Rat]

thanks for the answers so far.

Does placing a bomb really work against marth's recovery? I've been doing recently with some success. Yet it seems like they still have a lot of options. (Mostly changing the timing/angle of their upB (early vs SS) or by stalling with SideB or DJ.) One of my friends has been telling me to just keep refreshing my invicibility and try to force him on the stage, but his ****ing fair/nair tends to push you off the edge. (I wish Samus had an edge stall like Spacies/Shiek. Airdodge back (from the edge) instant grapple only works once =/.)

What I usually do is just throw out an Utilt/Dsmash and hope it works while mixing it up with walk-off Nair/WD backwards off nair. Which ***** when it hits btw. <3 killing Marth at 40-60%.

Even sometimes I just let him back on to get into a good position while he's on the edge. =/.


Thanks again, I'll respond in more detail when I'm not sleeping.

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

i'm not a big fan of the bomb on the ledge

mostly because if they're not dumb, they'll just hit the sweetspot again
at least that's what it seems like to me

also what do you do against a marth camping on a ledge?
the only thing i could think of doing then was the bomb thing, and even though i didn't get punished for it, i feel like i probably would get punished for it

 

[ArstNeio]

Er, can't you just wait there? Idk, I'm pretty noob at this game right now, but they can't camp there indefinitely even if they're up right? If so, then can't you just wait, perhaps in crouch, near the ledge? Maybe you can space it too so his get-up attack or ledgehop aerials can't hit you.

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

it's just that if they see you crouching there
they will probably ledgehop into wd grab
and if you don't
they will just attack you with anything
i guess i could try to bait with shielding
i dunno i'll try stuff again next time

 

[Geist]

A little late for the party but I'll answer anyways.

How do you beat...?
-Fox's Top Platform camping?

Well if he's attempting to clock you out, good luck if he's determined. It's hard to force him down if he doesn't have to. If he's just staying there spamming lasers or shielding I usually try to coax him down with missiles, carefully spaced Uairs, etc. Or you could just do absolutely nothing until he realizes camping isn't making the match go anywhere.

-Fox's Fullhop Dair?

It's a bit tricky if he's spacing well and FFing, but WD back or under him and catching him with a spaced tilt usually works. If he's doing it continuously just UpB OoS and shut his face down.

-Shine on shield wd away (the kind that you can't upB)?

WDing straight down allows you do do things faster than releasing the shield button does. Sometimes you can hit him with a grab. WD forward jab works when you want a good hit and run move.

-Fox ledgehogging while you're recovering (usually turns into FF shine DJ bair)?
(I've tried upB, spacing the up B out (bair is 2 big), over shooting the upB (bair is 2 high priority), wall hugging the up b (get shined), grappling the edge (they drop down and shine), grappling the stage (shined again)))

Well a good fox won't let you on the stage ever. All he really has to do is hold the edge and time his shine. If the Fox is unpatient, you can usually coax him into doing something prematurely and get back on. Stalling your grapple timing and spacing with bomb jumps usually does the trick. Sometimes I Uair and poke him, but you need to position yourself well to do that.

-Shiek's running shield (well just running shield in general)?
This is really one of my biggest problems. If you can only answer 1 question answer this one.

Grab lol
Or WD back. Just don't attack the shield, ever, unless you know she can't do anything, which is also never.

-Shiek who is in their dash attack/running shield/running grab range and is moving around on the ground. (WDing, DDing whatever.)

Use move that disrupt her spacing. Tilts (namely Ftilt in my experienced) that are spaced well and Jabs work. As long as you pay attention to where she's going you won't be overwhelmed.

-When shiek shields your Ftilt then WD in-> Shield, wtf do you do?

Dash back, WD back, grab, and pivot ftilt/jab. I use platform WDing for quick getaways.

-What do you do when Shiek fair->shields you? (you're getting hit by the Fair btw.)

Mostly same as above.

-Ganon's standing/retreating Bairs or Fairs

Not much you can do. If they're doing it repeatedly, just time and space moves, then time and space moves more. Jabbing will get you jabbed, ftilted and/or wizard kicked.

-Also how do you escape Ganon's low% combos?
(Cause like if he hits me with pretty much anything it's like 40-60% damage + edgeguard.)

Depends on the combo. He can CG you I think, and combos with Fair can be DI'd, and combos with Dair can be teched.

-Captain Falcon crossing you up.
(Also this means he's already in your space, ie he's broken the WDback barrier and is in Standing SHNair range or is jumping around your shield.)

This just means you should have spaced better. If he's broken the WD back barrier you can WD forward. UB OoS works too.
-Captain Falcon's Full Jump.
(usually from standing (out of shield) and he is positioning for a Dair, Knee, or DJ waveland->shenanigans. (See SS style (that kind of FJing) )

UpB OoS, utilt, Uair, etc. Falcon's easy to predict when he Full jumps or DJs.

-How do you approach a laser camping low %age Falco?
(If try to get into the Ftilt/jab zone they do a pivot laser, a FJ->platform camp, or put safe pressure on that zone.
If I try aerial approach's (Missile->Nair/Fair. Platform Waveland Bair (Spaceballs style)) I get CC->shined.
If I try DashAttacking I get CC->Shined.)

PS their lasers if you want to be cool. Generally better spacing should rid you of this problem though.

How the **** do you edgeguard marth?

Best way, force him to land on the stage with the super duper marth edgeguarder. Back facing the ledge, light shield, and tilt backwards. If he tries to sweetspot, his sword hits you and you tumble back, grabing the ledge. If he Doesn't sweetspot, he'll take the stage, where you can ledgehop aerial him back off.
Yeah bombs can work. Dropping down and nairing works well too.

 

[Rat]

Thanks again for the responses! Imma try paraphrasing what you said if that's ok.


Fox's Top Platform camping
So your saying there isn't much you can do. Nuts.

A lot of the time I just try to figure out where they are going and get into position. Upairing seems bad (maybe on Yoshi's it's ok, cause you can get there in 1 FJ) cause well you jump and fox can get to the ground faster than you.

What position would you aim for? Under fox? Outspace potential Bairs? Figure out which side he's going to and take stage space? Maybe even SHFF to bait a response?


Fox FJ Dair
Soluation: shielding it. If u can predict/react: space a tilt.

Fox Shine on Shield Wave away:
Solution: reposition and chase if they run?
The problem is moving from the shield seems risky, maybe i'm just not moving fast enough.

Fox Ledgestalling edgeguard:
-Solution: Be a tricky *****?
I'll try poking him with Uair. The problem is that I've been shined after that b4 (which is basically death.)

Shieks running shield
-Solution: Run away, mix-up run forward, jab, or ballzy grab. Make sure to space perfectly. Don't attack her shield (really? I'll try it. When do you attack shiek then? As she lands? Maybe poke and run will work.)

Is there anything you should definitely not be doing? Like jumping?

Shiek WD in after she blocks a safe move
-Solution: Run, grab (really?! Ftilt grab seems like the loosest and most hilarious pressure ever. I'll try it!)

Shiek Fair->Shield
What I way trying to get at was that it's an approach you can't CC dsmash/dtilt. What do you do instead after CC? Grab? Reposition? Jab a bunch?

Ganon's Combos:
How do you avoid Dair then? I have the problem that it pokes my shield. Spot Dodge and just eat a jab?

Captain Falcon all up in your space:
Solution: Do stuff
-I'm pretty sure jumping and doing an aerial is bad, cause if you miss you get **** combo'd.

Falco Low% laser camp:
Solution: Get close and UpB. (ie approach with shield.)
Solution 2: Space better
-Wtf does that mean? Space how? So the tip of your ftilt hits him? Or like stay in WD in Ftilt range? or like Try to hit him with the meaty part of your tilts? Could you be a bit more specific, cause I really doubt you are Ftilting camping Falcos. That is unless you already threw them off with something else.

Marth Edgeguard:
-The Shield trick (Super duper marth edgeguard) doesn't work with Samus, she is too heavy. She tumbles when pushed backwords from a shield off an edge. You can do it forward and then do a nair. Which I seriously have tried, the problem is it take super awesome timing which I don't have.

 

[Geist]

There is no 'correct solution' that you're looking for unfortunately. Everything depends on you and your opponent's playstyle, stage, percentage, positioning, etc, etc, etc.
Knowing what to do in certain situations can't really be learned from someone telling you, it just comes with time.
For instance your 'sheik fair -> wd shield approach' has no perfect solution, and the last thing you want to be doing is the same thing over and over again.
Just do random things in friendlies and experiment.

-The Shield trick (Super duper marth edgeguard) doesn't work with Samus, she is too heavy. She tumbles when pushed backwords from a shield off an edge. You can do it forward and then do a nair. Which I seriously have tried, the problem is it take super awesome timing which I don't have.

You want to tumble down. If the Marth is sweetspotting correctly you'll tumble down and grab the ledge before he does and he'll die.

 

[ArstNeio]

Can't you also charge your shot if you're being camped in the Fox top-platform and Marth ledge situations? Sometimes that makes them nervous and they approach. I suppose in the Fox top-platform situation, if he's really good at it and determined to run the clock, you having a charge shot doesn't make much of a difference, though if he does mess up and you hit him with it, it hurts a lot.

In the Marth situation though can you charge your shot further away than he is able to ledgehop wd grab, and just shoot it partially charged and/or shield-cancel charge jump out of shield aerial to cover his options? This probably leaves some other option open but just throwing ideas out there.

I feel like charging your shot makes people nervous and at the same time overzealous in their attempts to punish you for it. Perhaps you can use it to bait stuff.

 

[Pi]

I feel like charging your shot makes people nervous and at the same time overzealous in their attempts to punish you for it. Perhaps you can use it to bait stuff.

yea
it is
works

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

i'm not a big fan of the bomb on the ledge

mostly because if they're not dumb, they'll just hit the sweetspot again
at least that's what it seems like to me

also what do you do against a marth camping on a ledge?
the only thing i could think of doing then was the bomb thing, and even though i didn't get punished for it, i feel like i probably would get punished for it

They will sweetspot again if they're at a low percentage, but in a heat match they usually lose their cool and their timing. Then you can Wavedash back and D/F Tilt them off once you see their sword above the stage.


The real travesty is trying to edgeguard a Marth on Yoshi's Story, nothing is safe, and Down Smash only works if you're lucky.

 

[Geist]

Drop down and Nair if they're sweetspotting again after they get hit by the bomb.
Gimps

 

[edgeluca]

Soooooo
how you all doing?

 

[Geist]

lol I'm good, I just landed a job.
Game reviewer.
Get at me.

 

[edgeluca]

lol I'm good, I just landed a job.
Game reviewer.
Get at me.

OMG
GRATS
NOW COME TO BC SO I CAN THROW YOU A PARTY

 

[Geist]

lmao then I won't be able to work

I want to come down this summer. BC should host a sizable tourney so we can have an excuse to go over there because I can't go alone.


LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL I JUST NOTICED YOUR TITLE

 

[edgeluca]

lmao then I won't be able to work

I want to come down this summer. BC should host a sizable tourney so we can have an excuse to go over there because I can't go alone.


LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL I JUST NOTICED YOUR TITLE

Seriously, that's awesome about your job
Seems like something I might wanna get into as well

 

[Pi]

Applying @ blockbusters & steak 'n shake.
Recently got a car.

My samus is still 2good

 

[resTy]

Been not playing Samus.
No job, no car, no life.
I win :')

 

[Geist]

Well honestly I was looking for an apprenticeship with Ubisoft in Toronto lol.

lol Tyser
I thought you got banned again

 

[AntoPark]

THELIFERUINER.
I heard you're selling your controller to a fox/falco/falcon player and you're going to g-rev.
I need a new controller too so if he doesn't want it can you sell it to me? :]

Oh I work at a bagel shop, 5:30am to 12:30pm ftw. :[

 

[Dynamism?]

I just got back from my 1st year apprenticeship in Gas Fitting (from Vancouver woop woop) and things have been AMAZING since my return home to Ktown.
My car is the sexiest thing to hit the streets in the name of smash in history, bran new in 08, been the DD for the BC melee community ever since.
Not been playing smash but will soon and MY BRO is coming to the next tourney since he'll already be in Van and he'll be smashing for the FIRST TIME IN 3 YEARS and it's gonna be sick. The kid had skills back in the day, I hope he can get some back in less than a days time LOL

GRATS BLOWTOES


Edge and Aids, see you July 10th.
Prime you coming with SW to this one?\


Samus ftsexy

 

[edgeluca]

I just got back from my 1st year apprenticeship in Gas Fitting (from Vancouver woop woop) and things have been AMAZING since my return home to Ktown.
My car is the sexiest thing to hit the streets in the name of smash in history, bran new in 08, been the DD for the BC melee community ever since.
Not been playing smash but will soon and MY BRO is coming to the next tourney since he'll already be in Van and he'll be smashing for the FIRST TIME IN 3 YEARS and it's gonna be sick. The kid had skills back in the day, I hope he can get some back in less than a days time LOL

GRATS BLOWTOES


Edge and Aids, see you July 10th.
Prime you coming with SW to this one?\


Samus ftsexy

GGs Jamsey, too legit
We gotta have some friendlies this time son

 

[Geist]

lol thanks :D
My little bro just moved back up here from vegas for the summer.

Anyone know any good art schools in BC btw?

 

[ThePrime]

edgeluca, aids, dynamism

see you nukkas july 10th ^__^

 

[Dynamism?]

Capilano (something like that, college or uni can't remember) is freakin legit for art schoolio
That's where my bro is going for his crazy shinanigans (the kids a drawing god I swear), and my bassist for jazz music ridonculousness.

See you July 10th ^^


LOL Brennan, somehow I just never play friendlies with Victorians. You're like the other half of the invasion with Okanagan in means of taking over Vancouver so we're like...on the same team or something.

Gotta train each other up for the final assault in declaring #1 region(particles) in BC.

 

[edgeluca]

Capilano (something like that, college or uni can't remember) is freakin legit for art schoolio
That's where my bro is going for his crazy shinanigans (the kids a drawing god I swear), and my bassist for jazz music ridonculousness.

See you July 10th ^^


LOL Brennan, somehow I just never play friendlies with Victorians. You're like the other half of the invasion with Okanagan in means of taking over Vancouver so we're like...on the same team or something.

Gotta train each other up for the final assault in declaring #1 region(particles) in BC.

LOL
But I team with a Vancouverian!

 

[Dynamism?]

It's ok cause it's a Samus! yaaay
lol

 

[otg]

Since my boy Preq will never post it himself, I present the dumbest Samus combo ever performed ever (skip to 1:20):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYADlT-D9-8&playnext_from=TL&videos=GB-qGngro14&feature=sub

BEST?