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EVO made me realize a few things.

PKNintendo

Smash Master
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Whatever you say dude. MK has an iron grip on Brawl and is the cancer that is killing the metagame. Stage selection has been crippled, diversity in Brawl has been shot, etc. Nobody wants to play Super Smash Bros: Metaknight edition. Have you seen the M2K vs GNES at genesis 2? Could you imagine if that match was being played at EVO? You'd hear boos from all of the players that attended it.

I'm being realistic, Brawl is a lot more bearable without MK.
 

Revven

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I've been playing Smash since 1999 and I've never heard of non-tumble DI nor did I notice anything that different. I also mentioned this to my friends who play Smash. Never heard of it either.

I think you just don't know what your talking about.
Wooow, uh yes I do know what I'm talking about. It's you who doesn't.

Go put Melee in, do a move like Fox's jab1, jab2, jab3 combo and have the opponent hold back to DI the jabs (at 0%). Then put Brawl in, pick Fox and do the exact same thing, hold back with the other the controller. You will notice that you're not DI'ing out of the jabs in Brawl, but in Melee you are DI'ing out of them because there is DI during the non-tumble action or I should say, weak stun animation as most people would be used to what it is called.

If you still don't believe me with the jabs, let's do another comparison. Do Marth's Forward Throw in Brawl at 0%, don't try to DI it. Then do the exact same throw and try to DI it (hold back or forward or something) the distance won't change. Then put Melee in, do Marth's Fthrow at 0% with DI and without, there's clear differences in the distance you go.

That is a feature Smash 64 did not have (which also lacked regular DI) that Melee added that Brawl removed. A feature that makes the game horribly imbalanced, as small and unaware of it as you might be.
 

SmashChu

Banned via Warnings
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Wooow, uh yes I do know what I'm talking about. It's you who doesn't.

Go put Melee in, do a move like Fox's jab1, jab2, jab3 combo and have the opponent hold back to DI the jabs (at 0%). Then put Brawl in, pick Fox and do the exact same thing, hold back with the other the controller. You will notice that you're not DI'ing out of the jabs in Brawl, but in Melee you are DI'ing out of them because there is DI during the non-tumble action or I should say, weak stun animation as most people would be used to what it is called.

If you still don't believe me with the jabs, let's do another comparison. Do Marth's Forward Throw in Brawl at 0%, don't try to DI it. Then do the exact same throw and try to DI it (hold back or forward or something) the distance won't change. Then put Melee in, do Marth's Fthrow at 0% with DI and without, there's clear differences in the distance you go.

That is a feature Smash 64 did not have (which also lacked regular DI) that Melee added that Brawl removed. A feature that makes the game horribly imbalanced, as small and unaware of it as you might be.
Really don't care.

The reason I say you don't know what your talking about is you are saying Brawl is terrible because it lacks this Non-tumbling DI. I did a Google search for it and it asked "Did you mean: non-tumble DRY." I looked in a Smash wiki and it couldn't find it. If it's so important why can I not find it though a simple search.

It doesn't matter because the game isn't made so Smashboards can play silly tournaments. No game is made for that. Games are made to make sales. How do they do it? Why, appealing to the larger audience. So no one at Nintendo cares that someone on Smashboards claims that they need to revamp the series because they took out the most obscure elements (which can't be found though a normal search engine). This happens all the time. games are always made easier. Heck, many claim SF4 is an easier game (but it did better than SF3). It is something your going to have to deal with.

And it's still "Melee has X. Brawl doesn't. Thus, Brawl sucks." This whole Melee worship has to stop.
 

Sneak8288

Smash Champion
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Really don't care.

The reason I say you don't know what your talking about is you are saying Brawl is terrible because it lacks this Non-tumbling DI. I did a Google search for it and it asked "Did you mean: non-tumble DRY." I looked in a Smash wiki and it couldn't find it. If it's so important why can I not find it though a simple search.

It doesn't matter because the game isn't made so Smashboards can play silly tournaments. No game is made for that. Games are made to make sales. How do they do it? Why, appealing to the larger audience. So no one at Nintendo cares that someone on Smashboards claims that they need to revamp the series because they took out the most obscure elements (which can't be found though a normal search engine). This happens all the time. games are always made easier. Heck, many claim SF4 is an easier game (but it did better than SF3). It is something your going to have to deal with.

And it's still "Melee has X. Brawl doesn't. Thus, Brawl sucks." This whole Melee worship has to stop.
Lol what an awful post. LOL at the since i can't google it, it doesn't matter mindset. Too good
 

Revven

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It's not Melee worship, jesus christ why are you so ignorant?

By definition, Brawl is the sequel to Melee and Melee is the sequel to Smash 64. People compare sequels ALL THE TIME. Are they worshipping the past game as well for saying "The previous title does this well but the sequel does it wrong for some reason." There's PLENTY of games that have had sequels that don't do as well because they're deviating from what made the previous title GOOD. Reviewers do it all the bloody time with many different games.

Look at ****ing Duke Nukem Forever. A sequel to Duke Nukem 3D and reviewers compared DNF to DN3D, saying DN3D was a much better game for X reasons and X mechanics and DNF did X mechanics wrong or X things wrong. Does that show those reviewers are worshipping DN3D? Is it REALLY negative to be comparing sequels? No, it's not, it's the natural order of ANY franchise.

I am comparing sequels, that is what I'm doing, that is the only thing you CAN do. If someone asks me what the differences are between Melee and Brawl am I going to flat out lie and tell them they are the same game? No, I'm going to compare and contrast highlighting both the bad and good things each game does and how they are related and come from the same franchise.

Do you get it or are you still going to tell me I'm worshipping a previous title when I am merely comparing the two and showing how Brawl removed mechanics Melee added, it's not just ONE mechanic SmashChu. Non-tumble DI was but only ONE example of a mechanic Melee added that Brawl flat out removed (and actually HAD IN THE GAME AT ONE POINT!!)
 

AlphaZealot

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Warnings for the next Brawl v Melee debate response I see. This topic is located in BRAWL GENERAL DISCUSSION. The question at hand is basically how to improve the Brawl scene.
 

Skadorski

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Whether or not you believe that MK's banishment would help or hinder the competition, the idea remains that it would increase the level of excitement in matches. Nobody is interested in planking, scrougeing, and other things that really only benefit MK and.. Pit. Again, I'm not debating the strategy behind time outs and planking and such, I'm saying that it's not entertaining.
IMO strategy behind timeouts are boring but actual timeouts are fun. If it's 30 seconds left with MK at 24% and Snake at 32%, I'm going to be at the edge of my seat.
Problem is, that's not likely to happen. :urg:

:038:
 

Mr.Jackpot

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I wouldn't mind if Smash 4 was like Smash 64 as long as it's not like Brawl physics wise. It's better to be offense heavy than it is to be defense heavy because it's much more interesting to watch a player eat a 0-Death combo to the face after missing a single Z-Cancel than it is to watch two players flail projectiles and nado's at each other until the timer runs out. Smash 64 is the future of Smash :awesome:

@SmashChu People compare Brawl to Melee not because worship Melee but because Brawl was supposed to be the better game, but it's not, and Melee players aren't going to play a worse game just because it's newer, and a better gaming isn't killing the community because it's older. If Melee was worse than Smash 64 we would compare Brawl to Smash 64.
 

Zankoku

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By your logic, the only difference between Smash 64 and Brawl is that combos are more fun to watch, 'cause I assure you there is far more reason to dance around avoiding getting hit if failing to do so immediately leads to losing a stock.

Let's avoid Melee vs Brawl talk, please. The perceived qualities of one game over another have little to do with the communities that are around 200 strong for both when it comes to national events.
 

ZMan

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EVO will never accept Smash because of the flawed attitude of Smash players.
evo will never have smash as a main game again due to more reasons than that. reasons like bad blood between smash players and evo back in 08, newer fighting games like kof13 and sfxt coming out, and the biggest reason that nintendo doesn't support competitive smash. if smash dies or it doesn't get picked up by a professional circuit like evo or mlg again its due to no nintendo support.
 

Jack Kieser

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Zman, that's not the reason. It's because Smashers are so very closed to constructive criticism from outside sources. People don't realize that there is no one more biased than the top Brawl player or Brawl TO. Yes, they know their ****. No, sometimes they can't be truly objective.

Take the FD situation. I guarantee you, as in willing to put money on the table, that if we went to SRK and posted a thread (that people actually posted in) entitled "Is Final Destination a starter-worthy stage?" and explained what a starter was supposed to be in the context of our metagame, they would, hands down, deny it's starter-worthy. Yes, those people might not know Brawl inside-and-out, but you know what they do know? ALL of the underlying, base concepts that make competitive Brawl. They know game balance. They know pacing. They know fairness. They know competitive theory. They know entertainment.

They have to balance these things all the time. You know, having the most prolific fighting game series of all time every year.

But, we are closed-minded and cannot take criticism, especially if that criticism is about our sacred cows (like our starters, like item play, like the CP system). THAT'S why we can't ever get along with SRK and EVO: because they would require us to assimilate into a greater fighting game community, and we refuse to assimilate. "We're awesome!", we proclaim, while they try to explain back "No, you're not, dude. Don't lie". We really do have that proverbial "swagger like a cripple", but in our eyes, we swagger like we're a million bucks.

THAT'S why SRK can't stand us. Because we're so full of ourselves that we won't ever make room or take steps to assimilate into greater fighting game culture. We refuse, because we're convinced, like the ****ing House Republicans, that we don't have to compromise due to our own innate amazing-ness and correctness.

It's because, in essence, we're stuck-up *******s.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Jack, that is entirely wrong.

We have a lot of people on this site who are open minded and play a lot of other games. Otherwise I wouldn't see people in character boards talking about Blazblue, MvC3, SF and such.

Last time I read SRK, the community was mad because we banned items for what looked like no real reason to them. Stages weren't even a main point on that site if at all brought up.

It was mostly how our game plays, and who made it is where the issue lies.
 

Steam

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I'm pretty open to anything in tourney besides item play. I've always kinda felt FD shouldn't be a starter...
 

Eternal Yoshi

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I'm sorry, but I think that Brawl has no more continues if you know what I mean.

I think we should learn from what we did wrong with Brawl(and what Sakurai did) and use it to approach SSB4 better.

For instance, we shouldn't ban things in the first 3 months of the game.
Innocent until proven guilty, except in cases like New Pork City, where the developer said why it's not a good stage.

"........At any rate, it’s big, so if all someone does is run away, there will be no end to it."
 

choknater

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haha nice, sky. this is why i quit brawl. i know i love smash soooo much, but it only happened cuz melee was godlike. i placed my hope in brawl for 2 years but i just got bored.
 

choknater

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shoutouts to evo haha. we do a fine job making our own huge tournaments with the pound, rom, apex, and genesis series though. and more are sure to come up. maybe some day again if a future smash becomes a better game, but i doubt it
 

Eternal Yoshi

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All the more reason to play the role of that guy in the image to learn how to improve the community for SSB4 through.
 

choknater

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i personally think some characters in brawl are really exciting to watch because they are fast. i really like strong peach vs marth matches.

unfortunately that's not what most grand finals look like haha, and those are the matches that everyone sees.
 

choknater

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the current fan base of marvel vs capcom 3 reminds me of the early brawl community haha. basically... irritated consumers who need instant gratification to cure their itch for a better game

now the brawl community is full of the true fans. it's pretty cool but i'm not very well acquainted with them anymore haha
 

Big-Cat

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Jack, that is entirely wrong.

We have a lot of people on this site who are open minded and play a lot of other games. Otherwise I wouldn't see people in character boards talking about Blazblue, MvC3, SF and such.

Last time I read SRK, the community was mad because we banned items for what looked like no real reason to them. Stages weren't even a main point on that site if at all brought up.

It was mostly how our game plays, and who made it is where the issue lies.
The problem is that the ones that play only Smash happen to be the most vocal about their feelings. Those that treat this series like the holy grail are the biggest problem.

And I also agree each game did something wrong. IMO, L/C-Canceling should've never happened (but you know my position on that), and going off what I'm reading on DI, it was made more complicated than necessary and makes Melee AND Brawl too, for a lack of better words, mix-up oriented.

@choknater
From my understanding, that's the way fanbases are for EVERY fighting game. Capcom gets the brink of it though since the fans can be so overly whiny. At least Capcom actually listens to the fanbase, something Nintendo really outta consider. Then again, there's been the problem where the Nintendo fans don't really live up to their part of the bargain (case in point, localizing certain games) so Nintendo is naturally reluctant to listen.
 

choknater

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yeah, you're right about that kumaoso

i honestly think they're not gonna do well with the wii u haha. 3ds already kinda flopped...

wii was a really cool idea, but now they're just getting gimmicky
 
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Well I personally think the Wii U will be good mainly because i think Nintendo understands the position they are in: If they flop this console like the wii then they pretty much are going to end up like Sega. Also smash 4 i have high hopes for mainly due to DLC. If the wii could handle DLC like the other 2 consoles and they could add and patch the things in brawl we probably wouldn't have as many issues and the longevity and lasting competitive appeal for brawl might have ended up better. But i'm staying skeptical sorta until next E3 where we'll most likely get a trailer as well as many a name for the game.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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The problem is that the ones that play only Smash happen to be the most vocal about their feelings. Those that treat this series like the holy grail are the biggest problem.

And I also agree each game did something wrong. IMO, L/C-Canceling should've never happened (but you know my position on that), and going off what I'm reading on DI, it was made more complicated than necessary and makes Melee AND Brawl too, for a lack of better words, mix-up oriented.

@choknater
From my understanding, that's the way fanbases are for EVERY fighting game. Capcom gets the brink of it though since the fans can be so overly whiny. At least Capcom actually listens to the fanbase, something Nintendo really outta consider. Then again, there's been the problem where the Nintendo fans don't really live up to their part of the bargain (case in point, localizing certain games) so Nintendo is naturally reluctant to listen.
Every series have people like that. I ignore them, they don't rep the brightest or the more knowledgeable people in each fanbase. They may be loud but they sure ain't people I use for the shape of what the community is.

I wouldn't say Capcom is great at listening to it's fanbase, maybe I'm just salty over Legend 3 and no Megaman in the new MvC3 version.
 

Big-Cat

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Every series have people like that. I ignore them, they don't rep the brightest or the more knowledgeable people in each fanbase. They may be loud but they sure ain't people I use for the shape of what the community is.

I wouldn't say Capcom is great at listening to it's fanbase, maybe I'm just salty over Legend 3 and no Megaman in the new MvC3 version.
Given the current economic times and Japan's status with the earthquake, I'm more lenient than I normally am with Japanese developers. While I'm sad that Legends 3 was cancelled, that wasn't a decision they made lightly.

Now for Megaman in UMvC3, I'm betting either he's DLC or they couldn't think of a way to make him where he wasn't bland and/or borrowed robot master moves (meaning you're playing as them, not Megaman).
 

Anth0ny

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The way we deal with Smash 4 will be interesting.

Instead of drooling over dojo updates, we should have a huge thread regarding how we'll deal with the ruleset. As much as the Smash community unanimously agrees that items/certain stages should be banned on the spot... it is a new game. We should really give it a chance for a few months, no matter HOW horrible it will feel for Smash vets.

If we can get Evo's support in the first year (with items/questionable stages legal), maybe, with continuous play over the following 12 months, we can convince them to ban items/stages (and back it up with tournament proof) and have Smash 4 on the Evo roster for years to come.

As opposed to how we dealt with Brawl, which was pretty much "Items and stages legal? **** you we don't need you to live enjoy your ****ty tournament".

Smash 4, if successful with Evo, could also find it's way onto he MLG circuit if we're lucky.

of course, I retract all these statements if the game sucks. which is pretty likely, unfortunately =(
 

Mr.C

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The way we deal with Smash 4 will be interesting.

Instead of drooling over dojo updates, we should have a huge thread regarding how we'll deal with the ruleset. As much as the Smash community unanimously agrees that items/certain stages should be banned on the spot... it is a new game. We should really give it a chance for a few months, no matter HOW horrible it will feel for Smash vets.

If we can get Evo's support in the first year (with items/questionable stages legal), maybe, with continuous play over the following 12 months, we can convince them to ban items/stages (and back it up with tournament proof) and have Smash 4 on the Evo roster for years to come.

As opposed to how we dealt with Brawl, which was pretty much "Items and stages legal? **** you we don't need you to live enjoy your ****ty tournament".

Smash 4, if successful with Evo, could also find it's way onto he MLG circuit if we're lucky.

of course, I retract all these statements if the game sucks. which is pretty likely, unfortunately =(
There is no need to test items for competitive play and the argument to do otherwise will never be taken seriously, for good reason.

Which stages we dictate are balanced comes down to common sense, you don't need tournament proof to know Hyrule Temple is a terrible stage.

If EVO people were seriously arguing otherwise they have absolutely no idea how these games work.

The absolute biggest thing SSB4 needs to have the attention of EVO/MLG is be an actual good game worth watching. If matches have zero excitement factor it will not be a good spectator sport.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Given the current economic times and Japan's status with the earthquake, I'm more lenient than I normally am with Japanese developers. While I'm sad that Legends 3 was cancelled, that wasn't a decision they made lightly.

Now for Megaman in UMvC3, I'm betting either he's DLC or they couldn't think of a way to make him where he wasn't bland and/or borrowed robot master moves (meaning you're playing as them, not Megaman).
I can't really let this pass by me at all.

Capcom should still wait if that was the issue at hand. This is a reason people I have heard are starting to boycott buying MvC3 since it offers little to be worth the addition. I mean, SF4 -> SSF4 offered a huge upgrade. MvC3 -> UMvC3 isn't offering much to be worth $40 again. And still you gotta download the DlC characters.

~

As for the subject at hand, meh. Items were tested so I have no clue why Evo would use that silly excuse if it is what they are saying. I mean unless they want this to happen on a regular basis.

[yt]GFjw9p7PQYM[/yt]

Even ignoring the random factor with them, even if we know how items spawn with grid lines or something. Smashballs home in on the person who is losing and are easier to break by the loser. We can turn off capsules which were one of the main problems in melee if I recall.

Even then, there are things that are obvious ban. Stages for example, Temple is the main one, it doesn't need testing to see it's busted. Some do, and we did, not all in tournament but we learned what was or wasn't acceptable.

So I dunno why that is a legit reason.
 

Anth0ny

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There is no need to test items for competitive play and the argument to do otherwise will never be taken seriously, for good reason.

Which stages we dictate are balanced comes down to common sense, you don't need tournament proof to know Hyrule Temple is a terrible stage.

If EVO people were seriously arguing otherwise they have absolutely no idea how these games work.

The absolute biggest thing SSB4 needs to have the attention of EVO/MLG is be an actual good game worth watching. If matches have zero excitement factor it will not be a good spectator sport.
Obviously they don't lol. "You should play it how it is out of the box". The logic is flawed for Smash Bros, but they are dead set on applying it. Even though we KNOW how items work/don't work from 10+ years of tournament play.

Regardless, I still think we're better off swallowing our pride for one year, gaining their trust, and then dropping the BOMB on them. The bomb being "items are kinda ****ing random and dumb and hurt competition" and "lame stages are lame".

If they want Hyrule Temple/New Pork City/whatever the equivalent in Smash 4 is legal at Evo, so be it. Someone will counterpick it at one point or another, and time out the **** out of their opponent. If that doesn't send them the message... continuous video evidence from further tournaments will.

Capcom should still wait if that was the issue at hand. This is a reason people I have heard are starting to boycott buying MvC3 since it offers little to be worth the addition. I mean, SF4 -> SSF4 offered a huge upgrade. MvC3 -> UMvC3 isn't offering much to be worth $40 again. And still you gotta download the DlC characters.
SF4 -> SSF4= new stages, balance changes, 10 new characters, $40 price point
MVC3 -> UMVC3= new stages, balance changes, 12 new characters, $40 price point

It's worth just as much as SFIV. and for what it's worth, spectator mode and improved netcode are also included. I think the problem people have is that they pretty much released a public beta in MVC3, and UMVC3 was announced a mere 5 months after Marvel 3's release, set for release in the very same year.
 

MasterShake

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It's too bad that Brawl is so poop to watch (to most people). Seriously, you don't need rules and stuff shoved down people's throats, can your top players just stop playing so damn campy? I mean a ledge grab rule sounds totally silly. What scares me is that counterarguments to this will be "but you can't WIN without doing that stuff..." Well that says a lot doesn't it...
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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It's really only M2K that makes it really bad.

Which he does the same in Melee.

I mean if Campy is an issue, then Defensive characters in other games like street fighter should stop doing it, just like Armada should stop camping as Young Link.
 

MasterShake

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It's really only M2K that makes it really bad.

Which he does the same in Melee.

I mean if Campy is an issue, then Defensive characters in other games like street fighter should stop doing it, just like Armada should stop camping as Young Link.
Werd, he didn't do that stuff before Brawl though....

And also werd to Armada, I was actually thinking how much it annoyed me that he never approaches. And those sets at G2 he had were mad boring.

Don't care too much about defensive characters in other games, it's hardly as noticeable because the fighting space is so limited you're basically in footsies all the time. In smash you can really just be across the whole stage or running away, not even fighting. Boring.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Werd, he didn't do that stuff before Brawl though....

And also werd to Armada, I was actually thinking how much it annoyed me that he never approaches. And those sets at G2 he had were mad boring.

Don't care too much about defensive characters in other games, it's hardly as noticeable because the fighting space is so limited you're basically in footsies all the time. In smash you can really just be across the whole stage or running away, not even fighting. Boring.
Welcome to competitive play and fighting games. Not always entertaining, but it's how they try and win.

Idk how M2K is totally but he has gotten more defensive over the years, I don't think there is a direct correlation necessarily.
 
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