EVO made me realize a few things.

[JoFTWin]

The Brawl vs. Melee argument is dumb, just play whichever damn game you like more.

In terms of expanding the smash community, I think the best thing we could do is ban MK find a way to bring legitimacy to smash tournaments. Items aren't the way to do it. They don't "level the playing field", they just make characters that are already good better. IMO the best way would be to get more sponsorship. The reason things like Apex and Genesis are so hype is because they actually have some serious money behind them in order to bring the best players in the world to one place and see who is truly the best.

Also, the fact that threads like this degenerate into "Items vs. No Items" or "Brawl vs. Melee" probably doesn't help. We should be figuring out ways to make the community better, not just having the same tired arguments over and over.

Exactly. I really don't think the answers are as complex as people are making this out to be. We know what we need to do, we're just either scared to try or close-minded. All I know now is that I'm going to take action in my area.

 

[Mr.C]

The Brawl vs. Melee argument is dumb, just play whichever damn game you like more.

In terms of expanding the smash community, I think the best thing we could do is ban MK find a way to bring legitimacy to smash tournaments. Items aren't the way to do it. They don't "level the playing field", they just make characters that are already good better. IMO the best way would be to get more sponsorship. The reason things like Apex and Genesis are so hype is because they actually have some serious money behind them in order to bring the best players in the world to one place and see who is truly the best.

Also, the fact that threads like this degenerate into "Items vs. No Items" or "Brawl vs. Melee" probably doesn't help. We should be figuring out ways to make the community better, not just having the same tired arguments over and over.

That is the entire point though...the community is going to be garbage because of Brawl. The game is terrible, the game is not competitive and Nintendo spit in the face of every single dedicated competitive player when they released the game.

I was just watching Brawl streams last night of some of the best players in the south and it was a ****ing joke. There was absolutely no rhyme or rhythm to anything they did, they were just running around spamming **** because that's the only thing you can do in Brawl. Not to mention only 4-6 characters are even remotely viable since Brawl pretty much removed the aerial aspect of the game due to getting rid of Lcanceling.

The only way things are going to get better are when the new WiiU is released and the new Smash Bros. game is incredible (if they go down the same path as Brawl it will be the same garbage) or if we switch back to Melee (which won't happen).

How can people say the Brawl vs Melee argument is dumb when Brawl is the only thing that killed this community?

 

[FOUREYES]

That is the entire point though...the community is going to be garbage because of Brawl. The game is terrible, the game is not competitive and Nintendo spit in the face of every single dedicated competitive player when they released the game.

I was just watching Brawl streams last night of some of the best players in the south and it was a ****ing joke. There was absolutely no rhyme or rhythm to anything they did, they were just running around spamming **** because that's the only thing you can do in Brawl. Not to mention only 4-6 characters are even remotely viable since Brawl pretty much removed the aerial aspect of the game due to getting rid of Lcanceling.

The only way things are going to get better are when the new WiiU is released and the new Smash Bros. game is incredible (if they go down the same path as Brawl it will be the same garbage) or if we switch back to Melee (which won't happen).

How can people say the Brawl vs Melee argument is dumb when Brawl is the only thing that killed this community?

The Brawl vs. Melee argument is dumb because there's no resolution to it. There can't be. Melee players will always say that melee is better, Brawl players will not give a **** because brawl is the current game and they win more money at it.

The reason only 4-6 characters are viable in Brawl is MK, not lack of Melee mechanics. But that's beside the point. We should be focusing on building and improving the community we have, not wasting time with the mindless ****-waving that is the Melee/Brawl debate.

 

[Mr.C]

The reason only 4-6 characters are viable in Brawl is MK, not lack of Melee mechanics. But that's beside the point. We should be focusing on building and improving the community we have, not wasting time with the mindless ****-waving that is the Melee/Brawl debate.

Are you kidding? Lol? If Brawl had Lcanceling, frames that make sense and a shielding animation that was actually allowed to be used within the dash animation, every single character in the game would be viable.

If Ganon could Lcancel he would decimate MK, notice how every viable character has no noticeable lag on any of their aerials? That's the major reason why they are even playable in the first place.

The Brawl vs. Melee argument is dumb because there's no resolution to it.

If you put it this way, you're correct.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ganondorf would be WAYYYYYY better with l-cancelling and wave-dashing.

 

[FOUREYES]

If you put it this way, you're correct.

Hence why I put it that way.

I'd like to hear your opinions on how the smash community could improve; you did, in fact, read and post in this thread, which implies that you have some interest in expanding and improving the smash community.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Mr.C, shut up. Your tired "Melee v. Brawl" ranting is not relevant, nor is it entertaining. You add nothing to the discussion with your incessant whining. Go away.

 

[Mr.C]

Mr.C, shut up. Your tired "Melee v. Brawl" ranting is not relevant, nor is it entertaining. You add nothing to the discussion with your incessant whining. Go away.

Keeping this thread bumped isn't it? Yes, it is relevant, Brawl is the current tournament standard and it's terrible, sounds pretty relevant to me.

My opinion on making the game better? The community should either A.) Switch back to Melee or B.) Switch to a community made Brawl mod like Brawl + etc, both things are highly unlikely which is sad but really nothing anyone suggests will save the community from Brawl being a terrible game and Brawl being a terrible game is directly correlated to the community dying.

I guess the community could try and convince EVO/MLG to pick up Melee again but I don't have any information on how that is possible.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

You ranting on how brawl is a terrible game isn't going to help solve any issues ether. And if all your going to do is rant about the game and how you prefer melee then why don't you go and play some melee instead of wasting your time. And the community isn't dying because the games bad, it's dying because ppl are losing interest in the game and we're to blame for that. As a lot of ppl have said already we need to evaluate what needs to be tournament worthy and regardless of what that is. The last thing we need is people unwilling to try anything if only to help our community reach more people.

If the our competitive scene didn't need help we wouldn't be in the mess we are in. And while yes we are capable of surviving without brawl or smash being at EVO or MLG having our communities games featured on their rosters only benefits and proves that are game isn't just some wannabe competitive game.

And even all this depends on if the community wants change at all and wants to break away from being split into so many different sides. That is another thing that needs to be addressed, our community unlike so many other fighters is split into so many kinds and it's mainly due to ppl simply looking down on one another simple for how they play this game. Just because some of you say items aren't meant for tournaments doesn't mean they still can't be held simply to allow those casual players to get a feel for what tournaments are like. And although I'm sure ppl have tried they don't get any type of attention simply because of peoples grudge against item use. We are constantly at war with the people within our community and it just shows from an outsiders point of view how childish this game can be.

I know people mean well when they try and voice their opinions on whats right for the community but all the words in the world can mean nothing if ppl aren't willing to listen, just as ppl probably won't listen to what I'm saying now.

Suming it all up: We're losing players (big and small, competitive or casual) and something has to be done. IDK who or how many ppl will try to fix this but the community needs to discuss it and agree universally(or majority) on how to appeal to new players, make the game interesting and as fair as possible to play a competitive level.

 

[Mr.C]

Suming it all up: We're losing players (big and small, competitive or casual) and something has to be done. IDK who or how many ppl will try to fix this but the community needs to discuss it and agree universally(or majority) on how to appeal to new players, make the game interesting and as fair as possible to play a competitive level.

My entire point, if Brawl is the tournament standard nothing will change, how can you not understand that? People are leaving because of Brawl, competitive players are leaving because of Brawl. This community doesn't really need to appeal to new players, it does that fine enough, it needs to appeal to the good players and keep them wanting to play, something, Brawl cannot do.

That's not ranting about how Brawl is a bad game it's ranting about how Brawl needs to be removed from the tournament standard if you want the competitive community to survive.

 

[FOUREYES]

Guys, I was trying to steer this thread AWAY from Melee vs. Brawl. Mr. C has valid points: Melee IS a better competitive game than Brawl, and I think doing more to revive melee would be great for the community. Brawl is, however, here to stay; it's too deeply ingrained not to be. I feel like getting more people into the melee community would actually help smash as a whole. Brawl hacks are also an option. I feel like a no-trip, MK-nerfed/banned version of brawl could definitely get more people interested in playing brawl competitively, since those are the main things holding brawl back. I don't feel like the slower pace or lax tech skill requirements detract from brawl at all; I personally prefer playing Brawl over melee specifically because of those things. Something does need to change, though.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

But the thing is no one knows what that thing that needs to change is? And before someone says removing MK is the answer it isn't. That's only going to force ppl to ether quit or pick a different character. And making melee the competitive standard isn't what we should do. both games if not all 3 games should be equally supported as just as many ppl play them. Ignoring a whole game iteration just because it's lacking in the competitive department doesn't make it a bad game just one that needs more help in finding whats right for it. We simply can't just say " no more brawl tournaments because it lacks melee's depth" Because there too many ppl already involved in playing it competitive. Though if we want to change things it needs to be big changes and they need to be universally integrated. The reason i say big changes overall(though the steps in reaching that big change can be small). For example taking out some of the more complained about stages and eventually replacing them with newer ones or just adding newer stages to the list. Reinventing the CP system of some sort or try to create a item CP system that can be implemented in brawl(simply because issues arise in melee with them). We need to get ppl together as a community ether by putting things like polls up and having ppl vote and have ppl in each region test things out. If we can't find a way to evolve our community and the rules in which we use eventually ppl will grown bored and leave regardless if it's Brawl Melee or smash 64.

 

[Djent]

If the Brawl ship actually desreves to sink, let the leaks do the job instead of blasting the hull apart. Focus on reaching out to the doomed sailors instead of shunning them - because where do you think they'll go if their vessel goes down? Out into an open ocean that is hostile to them, or toward a nearby ship that just happens to be nicer? My point is, you should ready the rescue raft instead of the cannons, and you might find yourself with a lot of new recruits. Or let the sharks have them and proceed with your own thinning crew...that's your call. Whatever you do, know that the spiteful option carries the cost to the nice ship, because the current officers won't be around to maintain the decks forever.

 

[Steam]

I was just watching Brawl streams last night of some of the best players in the south and it was a ****ing joke. There was absolutely no rhyme or rhythm to anything they did, they were just running around spamming **** because that's the only thing you can do in Brawl. Not to mention only 4-6 characters are even remotely viable since Brawl pretty much removed the aerial aspect of the game due to getting rid of Lcanceling.

well, you're making yourself sound like a serious scrub. taking out some movement options doesn't just ruin all competitive depth from the game. if you're saying they're just running around spamming **** then you don't understand the game.

just because you can't just cut landing lag in half by pressing L doesn't mean there is no aerial aspect to the game. it means you have to space your aerials well to make them safe (and use the right aerials might I add). or keep in mind that your aerials might not be safe on shield and have to cross them up or FF AD to the ground. you know... mix ups! :D

and the game isn't ruined because you can't cancel your initial dash by shielding. it's just something you have to work around. sounds more like you're just complaining about change other than giving real reasons. It's honestly dumb to me that you can make unsafe moves safe by pressing the L button at the right time... but oh well, melee is still fun

@KC24- at this point MK forces people to play a different character or quit... by invalidating half the cast lmao.

but yeah... though melee is generally better/more fun competitively. brawl is here to stay and the community will only grow if we work together. if one community hates the other we'll just separate and die quicker.

 

[JoFTWin]

My entire point, if Brawl is the tournament standard nothing will change, how can you not understand that? People are leaving because of Brawl, competitive players are leaving because of Brawl. This community doesn't really need to appeal to new players, it does that fine enough, it needs to appeal to the good players and keep them wanting to play, something, Brawl cannot do.

That's not ranting about how Brawl is a bad game it's ranting about how Brawl needs to be removed from the tournament standard if you want the competitive community to survive.

Here's what we're saying. Brawl won't be removed from the tournament standard. There's too many gray areas to that situation. I agree with you that the competitive community is suffering (to an extent) because of Brawl, but there's honestly nothing we can do about that. There are still people who will continue to take competitive Brawl seriously whether we like it or not. We have to accept that and adapt to this dilemma in another way. Whether you want to accept that is up to you.

Basically, instead of trying to kill off Brawl, we should be trying to breathe life back into Melee. There's no reason they can't co-exist.

Now as far as improving the Brawl tournament ruleset. I still feel there are changes that can be made to help that situation. I've recently been testing a 2-stock ruleset with some other smashers and it helps alot in giving matches a greater sense of speed/urgency.

If the situation to improve Brawl is that dire though I say we should handle it democratically instead of waiting for the BBR. Theorizing about how people will react to changes is cool and all but at the end of the day, nothing beats people actually telling you how they would react to certain changes.

 

[QUIVO]

Mr C's posts are hilarious.

 

[SmashChu]

Left these threads because it's obvious that the Smash community doesn't want to help itself, only whine. I'd love to help if there wasn't so much resistance from simple stuff that needs to change.

My entire point, if Brawl is the tournament standard nothing will change, how can you not understand that? People are leaving because of Brawl, competitive players are leaving because of Brawl. This community doesn't really need to appeal to new players, it does that fine enough, it needs to appeal to the good players and keep them wanting to play, something, Brawl cannot do.

That's not ranting about how Brawl is a bad game it's ranting about how Brawl needs to be removed from the tournament standard if you want the competitive community to survive.

Brawl did nothing. It's just a game. The community was far to childish to except that the designer didn't just copy/paste Melee with new characters. The community is dying because they see Melee as "perfect," so nothing will be as good and they'll complain and want more Melee. If anything, Melee is doing more damage than Brawl.

You have to appeal to new players. It's a reality. That is where the good players come from. People will leave regardless because there isn't enough money to keep playing and life tends to get in the way.

Basically, instead of trying to kill off Brawl, we should be trying to breathe life back into Melee. There's no reason they can't co-exist.

It can't. The old game only co-exist for so long and eventually dies because everyone (the fanbase, the players, the viewers) will all move to the new game. The old game will only hold players who played it. Everyone who is new will jump onto the new game (heck, they can actually buy the new one). Everyone moves on. The Smash Brothers fanbase moved to Brawl.

Trying to stick with Melee will only hold the community back and be forever behind. No one but Melee players care for Melee. No one else wants to watch it, play it or support it. They want Brawl instead. Every game community does this. Starcraft is about Starcraft 2. Halo moved to Reach. Modern Warfare 3 will over take 2. Street Fighter players moved to 4 (even though many still prefer 3). Smash, too, has to move to Brawl and than from brawl to 4.

I realize Melee is what is killing competitive Smash. If competitive Smash is going to survive the transition to SSB4, Melee must forever die and float off to sea.

 

[QUIVO]

To be fair, Melee players are the ones that are far more immature than Brawl players. I try to play both, and it's kind of rare nowadays to meet accepting/understanding melee players.

Not so much anymore (at least in person), but back in the day all you would get were a bunch of brats that were upset that only 8 people were attending their Melee tournaments and they would try to take it out on brawl players.

In the end it's who cares? Play whatever you want, bro.

 

[Mr.C]

Brawl did nothing. It's just a game. The community was far to childish to except that the designer didn't just copy/paste Melee with new characters. The community is dying because they see Melee as "perfect," so nothing will be as good and they'll complain and want more Melee. If anything, Melee is doing more damage than Brawl.

You have to appeal to new players. It's a reality. That is where the good players come from. People will leave regardless because there isn't enough money to keep playing and life tends to get in the way.

To be fair, Melee players are the ones that are far more immature than Brawl players. I try to play both, and it's kind of rare nowadays to meet accepting/understanding melee players.

Not so much anymore (at least in person), but back in the day all you would get were a bunch of brats that were upset that only 8 people were attending their Melee tournaments and they would try to take it out on brawl players.

In the end it's who cares? Play whatever you want, bro.

Are you people serious? This has nothing to do with being immature, how can you honestly say Brawl isn't the reason the community is dead?

THE GAME HAS ZERO DEPTH COMPARED TO MELEE

Trouble accepting a new game? No, people never had trouble giving Brawl a chance, EVERYONE gave Brawl a chance, then they realized how bad the game was and the competitive Melee players never played it again. It's really not that hard to understand, it's like going from WoW to Maplestory, the transition is impossible when you're use to a superior game.

If Brawl was a good game no one would be complaining about it, but guess what? It's not. It's a terrible competitive game and no one takes it seriously.

It can't. The old game only co-exist for so long and eventually dies because everyone (the fanbase, the players, the viewers) will all move to the new game. The old game will only hold players who played it. Everyone who is new will jump onto the new game (heck, they can actually buy the new one). Everyone moves on. The Smash Brothers fanbase moved to Brawl.

Trying to stick with Melee will only hold the community back and be forever behind. No one but Melee players care for Melee. No one else wants to watch it, play it or support it. They want Brawl instead. Every game community does this. Starcraft is about Starcraft 2. Halo moved to Reach. Modern Warfare 3 will over take 2. Street Fighter players moved to 4 (even though many still prefer 3). Smash, too, has to move to Brawl and than from brawl to 4.

I realize Melee is what is killing competitive Smash. If competitive Smash is going to survive the transition to SSB4, Melee must forever die and float off to sea.

That's funny because most Brawl players are quitting and the largest competitive community is still Melee. Although, it's only the major EC/WC states that have very large Melee scenes they are still larger and more active than any state playing Brawl.

Trying to stick with Melee will only hold the community back and be forever behind.

You're so delusional it's disgusting. Trying to stick with the superior game isn't whats holding the community back. The majority of the casual community and tournaments using Brawl is the only thing that is holding the community back.

-----------

It's simple.

Melee's community is dying because of a new game. So, Melee will never be the tournament standard outside of the major EC/WC states.

Brawls community is dying because everyone is sick and tired of playing a bad game. Brawl does not have dedicated players like Melee does because the game lacks any long term depth.

Both cannot live together, Melee was killed by Brawl, Brawl was killed by itself.

There is absolutely nothing that can save the Smash community now except the arrival of the new game. If SSB4 goes down the path of Melee, the community will become extremely healthy and last for another 10+ years. If SSB4 goes down the path of Brawl, the community will have a very large influx of casuals, people will play the game for a couple of years then quit because the game lacks depth/skill, and the same exact thing will happen that is happening right now.

The only thing that can save this community is the new game being extremely well made and made for BOTH competitive players and casual players (like Melee) not just casual players (like Brawl).

Don't make me laugh. EVERY melee player I know gave Brawl a shot. It's a garbage game with a garbage engine that isn't even a tenth as complex and competitive as Melee was. The comparison to SF3 is invalid - that's entirely different and completely irrelevant.

If Brawl were actually a worthy successor to melee, we would've found a way to make the transition. Since it isn't, melee players have pretty much either A) quit smashing completely or B) moved on to other games as a competitive outlet. Because most the serious melee players could give less of a **** about Brawl, the current Brawl scene is composed of 75% newcomers who have never played anything BUT Brawl. This ruined the "Smash community".

You want my opinion? Brawl is a very simple, dumbed down game which doesn't have the depth necessary to be a premier competitive game. It'll never be as big as Street Fighter or MvC because the game isn't deep enough to ever be entertaining to watch and difficult to master. There's practically no difference between a great player and an excellent one in brawl, because there are so few advanced mechanics to practice and utilize. The competitive fighting game community sees Brawl as a joke, and they are largely justified in their views.

Melee had a legitimate shot at being a widely known, premier competitive game. Then Brawl came along, split the community in half and basically forced all of us to either move on to the newer, ****ty game, or leave the scene entirely. I for one moved on to other games and have never once felt a desire to join the Brawl competitive community.

100% correct.

 

[JoFTWin]

Left these threads because it's obvious that the Smash community doesn't want to help itself, only whine. I'd love to help if there wasn't so much resistance from simple stuff that needs to change.

Brawl did nothing. It's just a game. The community was far to childish to except that the designer didn't just copy/paste Melee with new characters. The community is dying because they see Melee as "perfect," so nothing will be as good and they'll complain and want more Melee. If anything, Melee is doing more damage than Brawl.

You have to appeal to new players. It's a reality. That is where the good players come from. People will leave regardless because there isn't enough money to keep playing and life tends to get in the way.


It can't. The old game only co-exist for so long and eventually dies because everyone (the fanbase, the players, the viewers) will all move to the new game. The old game will only hold players who played it. Everyone who is new will jump onto the new game (heck, they can actually buy the new one). Everyone moves on. The Smash Brothers fanbase moved to Brawl.

Trying to stick with Melee will only hold the community back and be forever behind. No one but Melee players care for Melee. No one else wants to watch it, play it or support it. They want Brawl instead. Every game community does this. Starcraft is about Starcraft 2. Halo moved to Reach. Modern Warfare 3 will over take 2. Street Fighter players moved to 4 (even though many still prefer 3). Smash, too, has to move to Brawl and than from brawl to 4.

I realize Melee is what is killing competitive Smash. If competitive Smash is going to survive the transition to SSB4, Melee must forever die and float off to sea.

In the SF community, when Street Fighter 3 came out, the community still supported Street Fighter 2 pretty strongly, granted now that 4 is out, no one's supporting 3..but still there have been cases where a new game didn't divide the community in a bad way.

 

[SmashChu]

To be fair, Melee players are the ones that are far more immature than Brawl players. I try to play both, and it's kind of rare nowadays to meet accepting/understanding melee players.

Not so much anymore (at least in person), but back in the day all you would get were a bunch of brats that were upset that only 8 people were attending their Melee tournaments and they would try to take it out on brawl players.

In the end it's who cares? Play whatever you want, bro.

From what I've seen, Melee players seem worse. They are willing to throw under Smash players under the bus. Its hard for me to say that Melee players are more mature because they don't act that way.

My argument is that Melkee must go and Brawl take it's place and than Brawl will move aside to SSB4. That isn't happening. What will likely happen is that they'll refuse to play SSB4 and move back towards Melee, slowly dying as people leave and no new ones take their place.

THE GAME HAS ZERO DEPTH COMPARED TO MELEE

Trouble accepting a new game? No, people never had trouble giving Brawl a chance, EVERYONE gave Brawl a chance, then they realized how bad the game was and the competitive Melee players never played it agai

That's funny because most Brawl players are quitting and the largest competitive community is still Melee.

You're so delusional it's disgusting. Trying to stick with the superior game isn't whats holding the community back.

Both cannot live together, Melee was killed by Brawl, Brawl was killed by itself.

If SSB4 goes down the path of Melee, the community will become extremely healthy and last for another 10+ years.

(like Melee)

If Brawl were actually a worthy successor to melee

Notice how it's "Melee is great. Melee is god."

There is a difference between liking other and worshiping another game. Notice how everything wrong with Brawl is in the context of Melee. It doesn't have the depth of Melee. It's not as fast as Melee. It's not as good as Melee. Melee is bigger. Melee. Melee. Melee. Try and find an argument of why brawl isn't good without them referencing Melee. Probably wont happen.

This is the real problem. You'll never move on if you think Melee was mana from heaven. Nintendo and Sakurai have an obligation to sell video games and make the players happy. They do this by keeping the game accessible and fun. They will avoid Melee because Melee was not accessible and actually lowered the number of Smash players (which Brawl brought back). Melee's ways are all but dead. Maybe SSB4 wont be as float-y. Maybe. But it wont be Melee.

But not how the context is "If SSB4 is like Melee, the community will survive." So the community says that Melee is the only reason they exist and will fade away without Melee.

The rose colored glasses need to come off. Melee had a lot of flaws. Heck, if you were facing the wrong way, you couldn't grab the ledge. You also had a cast that was either really good or crap, and the bottom tier only got bigger and bigger and there was no mid-tier. Not to mention that you couldn't use items because of the risk of hitting an exploding capsule. Melee wasn't that great.

The point is that you all need to move on. Forget about Melee and just play Smash. If you all want to keep playing competitive Smash then you better have something change. Because this clinging to Melee and hoping for the best hasn't worked for the last 3 years.

In the SF community, when Street Fighter 3 came out, the community still supported Street Fighter 2 pretty strongly, granted now that 4 is out, no one's supporting 3..but still there have been cases where a new game didn't divide the community in a bad way.

The community should never be divided. It's dying because of the division.

There is nothing wrong with having Melee tournaments, but Brawl has to be the big show. And SSB4 will be the big show as it comes out. There is only one community: the Smash community. You play Brawl. You play Melee. You play both. You play 64 (of all things). But in the SF community, SF4 is the big show. Some people prefer 3S. That's fine. But SF4 has to be the big focus and SF5 after it. That is where the Smash community is wrong.

 

[QUIVO]

What's wrong with newcomers? Newbs = mo money mi rite?

I think you should actually quote "ruins" instead of "smash community."

 

[Steam]

@Mr.C- if you think brawl has no depth you haven't really played it. I mean you're the guy who said brawl was just randomly spamming moves around right? lol...

Melee is not dying because of brawl. It's dying because of people like you who alienate brawl and all it's players for some sort of disgusting elitism. you really want melee to thrive? bring it to brawl tourneys and have all the brawl players see how much better it is by playing the game. I'd appreciate being able to play both games at a tourney. both games are fun. I mean where do you think you'll get players from? melee's the old game so you'll have to go through brawl, and acting like you and your melee are better than everyone else will get you nowhere, especially when you don't understand brawl.

again, I do think that melee is a better and deeper and more fun game, but you don't give brawl nearly enough credit.

 

[QUIVO]

I thought I posted this, but I guess not.

We should really start hosting tournaments with both games. It is the smash community after all.
That way we can spark interest from both games.

 

[Steam]

I thought I posted this, but I guess not.

We should really start hosting tournaments with both games. It is the smash community after all.
That way we can spark interest from both games.

That's what my scene is doing. it's definitely the best route to take.

 

[QUIVO]

My area kind of does that, but for some reason at the last one they didn't let you participate in both. I guarantee you they would've had an additional 3-5 entrants for both tournaments.

 

[Mr.C]

Notice how it's "Melee is great. Melee is god."

There is a difference between liking other and worshiping another game. Notice how everything wrong with Brawl is in the context of Melee. It doesn't have the depth of Melee. It's not as fast as Melee. It's not as good as Melee. Melee is bigger. Melee. Melee. Melee. Try and find an argument of why brawl isn't good without them referencing Melee. Probably wont happen.

This is the real problem. You'll never move on if you think Melee was mana from heaven. Nintendo and Sakurai have an obligation to sell video games and make the players happy. They do this by keeping the game accessible and fun. They will avoid Melee because Melee was not accessible and actually lowered the number of Smash players (which Brawl brought back). Melee's ways are all but dead. Maybe SSB4 wont be as float-y. Maybe. But it wont be Melee.

But not how the context is "If SSB4 is like Melee, the community will survive." So the community says that Melee is the only reason they exist and will fade away without Melee.

The rose colored glasses need to come off. Melee had a lot of flaws. Heck, if you were facing the wrong way, you couldn't grab the ledge. You also had a cast that was either really good or crap, and the bottom tier only got bigger and bigger and there was no mid-tier. Not to mention that you couldn't use items because of the risk of hitting an exploding capsule. Melee wasn't that great.

The point is that you all need to move on. Forget about Melee and just play Smash. If you all want to keep playing competitive Smash then you better have something change. Because this clinging to Melee and hoping for the best hasn't worked for the last 3 years.

You're basically painting a picture in your mind and trying to throw your logic on what I'm saying. No one is saying Melee is heaven, no one is worshiping Melee, and, no one is saying Brawl is the worst game ever made.

I'm saying Brawl is not a 'tournament competitive' game compared to Melee, YES, compared to Melee. Why are we comparing Melee vs Brawl? Because they're in the same ****ing genre and one is a games predecessor. These are the only game we can talk about, it's pretty ****ing obvious why you see quotes like,

THE GAME HAS ZERO DEPTH COMPARED TO MELEE

Trouble accepting a new game? No, people never had trouble giving Brawl a chance, EVERYONE gave Brawl a chance, then they realized how bad the game was and the competitive Melee players never played it agai

That's funny because most Brawl players are quitting and the largest competitive community is still Melee.

You're so delusional it's disgusting. Trying to stick with the superior game isn't whats holding the community back.

Both cannot live together, Melee was killed by Brawl, Brawl was killed by itself.

If SSB4 goes down the path of Melee, the community will become extremely healthy and last for another 10+ years.

(like Melee)

If Brawl were actually a worthy successor to Melee

If we were talking about Michael Jordan vs Scottie Pippen would you have to underline pointless words to try and prove something that has absolutely zero merit? No, because that doesn't make any sense.

Hey, speaking of Michael Jordan vs Scottie Pippen who is the superior basketball player? I'll give you a hint: Michael ****ing Jordan, common sense, common knowledge, simple logic, easy to understand.

Hey, speaking of Melee vs Brawl what is the superior competitive game? I'll give you a hint: Super Smash Brothers ****ing Melee, common sense, common knowledge, simple logic, easy to understand.

P.S. I can underline things for no reason.
---------------
You are everything that is wrong with this community and you should feel ashamed.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree 100% with Mr.C

Once people stop underlining words unnecessarily, this community will improve heaps.

 

[Fear]

You guys have to realize that when Mr.C talks about Melee and Brawl he is talking strictly competitive not that game as a whole. Brawl is not a bad game, Brawl IS a bad competitive game. Games with randomness, and basically no depth will fail on a competitive scale. Brawl being the "competitive" standard is a bad thing, because it's not very competitive at all. This indirectly is what is killing the smash community as a whole.

 

[Anth0ny]

Yeah we should just abandon Brawl and stick with Melee and hope for the best with Smash 4 =p

No way that's happening, people simply prefer Brawl to Melee. No matter how much you try and drive the point home (Melee has more depth, more competitive etc.), ultimately it's up to the person and their preference.

Melee is the stronger game competitively if you look at the numbers at Genesis, Genesis 2, Pound 4, Pound 5... of course this is no coincidence, the Melee community has 10 years over Brawl, players are older and therefore can travel more. Regardless, the numbers don't lie and although I'm sure Brawl tourneys are pumping out 50+ man tourneys every weekend, ultimately it's the majors that matter.

In the end, it's really in Nintendo's hands, though. They need to wake up and stop acting like HUMAN BEINGS and realize you can talk and communicate with fans. Capcom did it. American video game companies do it. Other Japanese companies (ESPECIALLY Nintendo) seem to have a problem with it. If Nintendo doesn't support Smash 4 via DLC and tournaments, the game will die. Surely they're taking notes from Capcom and Mortal Kombat?

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Well if not havign support form nintendo is such a problem then why hasn't anyone here tried to get in touch with them and ask them to support our community. Smash 4 i'm sure will have plenty of support seeing as their trying to go a more hardcore driven route with the system so i can expect leader boards and DLC and voice chat and online hosted tournaments like they do still for mario kart. But if we want them to really support us we should get in contact with them now before smash 4. Heck i would request that they make like a forum type thing for the new smash dojo for smash 4 that allows them to have polls and discussion about smash 4. We as a community that has been standing alone have to realize there's only so much we can achieve without support from the nintendo and even sakurai.

Also i doubt anyone like Sakurai or nintendo would want to support us especially since we are constantly mocking them for there decision to try and bridge a the gap between casuals and hardcore smashers with brawl.

 

[Revven]

Also i doubt anyone like Sakurai or nintendo would want to support us especially since we are constantly mocking them for there decision to try and bridge a the gap between casuals and hardcore smashers with brawl.

Well....... really, there's a lot of really questionable things in Brawl they shoved in there that even makes the casual experience bull****. They didn't have to bridge a gap with Smash because... there was no gap. Smash has been easy to get into since the beginning, since Smash 64. Nintendo is ignoring the competitive scene so if they can do that why couldn't they ignore that aspect when making Brawl?

Instead, they decided to attack us directly by making obvious anti-competitive mechanics and changes to the game that the previous Smash titles did not employ. Melee expanded on what Smash 64 brought to the table. Brawl removed gameplay mechanics, even the most basic of things that a casual player wouldn't notice (non-tumble DI). What did Brawl really add to Smash?... Name one mechanic that actually encourages competitive play in Brawl. Name one new mechanic that competitive players can actually use to be better than another player with. I'm not even talking about technical mechanics either, I'm talking about mechanics that actually make a healthy competitive scene.

You can't name one new mechanic that competitive players can use on a regular basis in matches in Brawl. They didn't add anything, footstooling doesn't even count because it's not even practical. Instead, Sakurai decided to remove mechanics and tweak things to be easier than they already were.

How could we not mock them? Nintendo expects criticism with all their games, even Zelda games get quite the criticism and they often times listen to that (Wind Waker, Twilight Princess being two Zelda games that fans weren't really happy with due to obvious reasons). It's whether they can take that criticism and actually repair what they did wrong with the last game(s). And, we won't know if they've even heard the 10000+ complaints about tripping in Brawl until SSB4 is out. Just like we won't know if SSB4 will be a good competitive game as well as casual. They need to find that middleground (though in my opinion they already had it with Melee, too many people were just whining about mechanics they shouldn't have cared about) and really they aren't going to if they go with Brawl's path (which it already seems like they're going to).

We never even heard of random dash tripping from the DOJO as an update, remember that as chances of them revealing "Hey guys! No more tripping!" are really slim.

 

[Steam]

nobody's really trying to argue that brawl has more depth than melee. but it's definitely not the reason the smash community is "dying".

but still, people don't give brawl nearly enough credit. It has plenty of depth. just kinda slow and boring.

@falco4000- they added wavebouncing, Dacus, Instant throwing, pivot grabbing glide tossing... once again I will say that IMO brawl is not nearly as deep and fun as melee... but people never give it enough credit. and I will agree that they made many changes to make it easier to play. namely adding all that buffer and reducing shield/hitstun.

 

[link2702]

i've only been to a few tournaments in my state before life took hold and i had a whole hell of alot of things come by that kept me from going to anymore(and i was so wanting to get truely deep into competitive melee...:< )

but...

is bad hygiene REALLY that big of a problem here in our community D:?


i mean the few i went to, everyone seemed like they took a shower(no one stunk around there) maybe the worst was simply alot of people were wearing worn out/faded jeans/clothes, but by no means was anyone just downright completely disgusting.

 

[JoFTWin]

Well if not havign support form nintendo is such a problem then why hasn't anyone here tried to get in touch with them and ask them to support our community. Smash 4 i'm sure will have plenty of support seeing as their trying to go a more hardcore driven route with the system so i can expect leader boards and DLC and voice chat and online hosted tournaments like they do still for mario kart. But if we want them to really support us we should get in contact with them now before smash 4. Heck i would request that they make like a forum type thing for the new smash dojo for smash 4 that allows them to have polls and discussion about smash 4. We as a community that has been standing alone have to realize there's only so much we can achieve without support from the nintendo and even sakurai.

Also i doubt anyone like Sakurai or nintendo would want to support us especially since we are constantly mocking them for there decision to try and bridge a the gap between casuals and hardcore smashers with brawl.

Never hope for anything from Nintendo. You'll be let down. And plus that's what we thougth they'd do with Brawl since they've done it for other games they have like Mario Kart, but look how that turned out. Expect nothing from them so that when you do get something you'll happy and when you don't, you won't be dissapointed. Tis what I've grown to learn back in the days when I used to be a Nintendo fan lol.

nobody's really trying to argue that brawl has more depth than melee. but it's definitely not the reason the smash community is "dying".

but still, people don't give brawl nearly enough credit. It has plenty of depth. just kinda slow and boring.

@falco4000- they added wavebouncing, Dacus, Instant throwing, pivot grabbing glide tossing... once again I will say that IMO brawl is not nearly as deep and fun as melee... but people never give it enough credit. and I will agree that they made many changes to make it easier to play. namely adding all that buffer and reducing shield/hitstun.

You're right. It doesn't get enough credit, but I'm sorry, tripping alone takes alot of merit away from brawl for me personally. Though I do agree Brawl does have alot of uncredited depth.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Well while i know i shouldn't expect anything from Nintendo I'm sure they aren't completely out of the loop in that smash needed a better online experience then what it got in brawl. And i do think Smash 4 will hit it's mark and if it doesn't it's not like they can't do a rebalanced patch like capcom does because now we'll have DLC options. And in case anyone's think they won't Nintendo has already said they are planning for purchasable DLC for both 3DS and WiiU. Truthfully i think brawl is best played with items regardless of random factors simply because of the mechanics of the game like how slow paced it is without them on and how floaty the game is and the fact that there's tripping(which was most likely to prevent players from running away without a risk i think idk). But again this is just my opinion based on the way brawl feels.

Smash 4 can either be the best of both worlds from melee and brawl or just further cause issues and i think it's up to every type of smash player or fan to voice their opinion to nintendo and to sakurai while development is underway so they hear what we want and how things should be because in the end it'll only help the game sell more.

 

[Revven]

@falco4000- they added wavebouncing, Dacus, Instant throwing, pivot grabbing glide tossing... once again I will say that IMO brawl is not nearly as deep and fun as melee... but people never give it enough credit. and I will agree that they made many changes to make it easier to play. namely adding all that buffer and reducing shield/hitstun.

I forgot about those... but still, those don't take that long to learn (except maybe wavebouncing I guess). And they're only useful for certain characters, DK for example has a terrible if not useless DACUS whereas Wolf has an amazing DACUS. In the end though, they're not really new gameplay mechanics that keep competition going for years, to bring about healthy competition. They're easy to learn, short-term mechanics that once you've learned them, you realize you're not the only one who knows them. You're essentially on the same playing field as everyone else again, character main aside. And while this is true for Melee with L-Canceling, at least with wavedashing it depended on how you use it. You can't really use DACUS in some inventive way, nor can you really use glide tossing in much the same way as you can wavedashing.

I was also thinking more along the lines of how Melee added all of those DI options to the game. You could DI every move in the game as well as SDI, ASDI, double stick DI, etc. etc. Brawl sought out to remove what Melee added, it didn't improve on anything. It didn't improve the base game that they've been working on since Smash 64. They pretty much removed all of those DI options (except for of course SDI, ASDI only works in the air) and made DI even easier than it already was. Brawl didn't improve DI, it made it worse by not being able to get out of silly throw chains like DDD's Dthrow and Falco's Dthrow because Sakurai & co. decided it'd be cool to remove DI during non-tumble. Which throws off the game completely, allowing Sheik's Ftilt lock, the CGs I mentioned earlier, MK's tornado to be godlike (nevermind the fact that it has like no SDIability), and so on.

Brawl didn't add anything that will stay in the base game in the long run. It only removed and that's its main problem when going into the game after playing Melee or hell even playing Smash 64 for so long.

 

[SmashChu]

No one is saying Melee is heaven, no one is worshiping Melee, and, no one is saying Brawl is the worst game ever made.

And then I hear.

Hey, speaking of Melee vs Brawl what is the superior competitive game? I'll give you a hint: Super Smash Brothers ****ing Melee, common sense, common knowledge, simple logic, easy to understand.

You are everything that is wrong with this community and you should feel ashamed.

Your tone says otherwise. It's clear you put Melee on a petistal.

Who cares if one is somehow more competitive than another based on some arbitrary rules that some people on a message board made up. Also, seeing as the definition of competitive is just a drive to be successful, both would be the same as there is a drive for both and you compete in both.

The problem is that you do put Melee on this higher level and it is what holds you back. You claim it's OK, but you can't give a reason that Brawl is bad without referencing to Melee. "It's too slow." Brawl isn't a slow game by any means. That also doesn't hurt competitiveness since SF4 is slower than 2. I'm sure other things will come up, many which are weaknesses of the player or result because you don't use items. Outside of tripping, it's always in the context of Melee.

My solution: get Melee out of your head. No one else cares about an 11 years old game and neither should you. Move on and hope that the community survives because Sakurai has already said he's staying closer to Brawl.

It's nice to know that I'm trying to help you guys yet I'm everything wrong with the community.

(Of course, than there is this post)

Well....... really, there's a lot of really questionable things in Brawl they shoved in there that even makes the casual experience bull****.

Seeing as it's the second most played Wii game and the best selling Smash, I'm thinking they didn't make the experience bull.

They didn't have to bridge a gap with Smash because... there was no gap. Smash has been easy to get into since the beginning, since Smash 64. Nintendo is ignoring the competitive scene so if they can do that why couldn't they ignore that aspect when making Brawl?

Melee was the worst selling of the 3 in Japan. In other words, it decreased the number of players playing Smash. Brawl brought them back.

Brawl removed gameplay mechanics, even the most basic of things that a casual player wouldn't notice (non-tumble DI).

I've been playing Smash since 1999 and I've never heard of non-tumble DI nor did I notice anything that different. I also mentioned this to my friends who play Smash. Never heard of it either.

I think you just don't know what your talking about.

 

[PKNintendo]

Lets work on making the meta more viable

Spoiler

cough ban mk cough

then there's a realistic chance EVO might accept Brawl.

 

[SmashChu]

Lets work on making the meta more viable

Spoiler

cough ban mk cough

then there's a realistic chance EVO might accept Brawl.

EVO will never accept Smash because of the flawed attitude of Smash players.