EVO made me realize a few things.

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=308204

If anyone here is willing to help me out with testing those rules. They may still need lot of work idk, I am having an online tourney to be run this Sunday and there's a smash fest tomorrow that I'll be testing that rule set out with a few ppl.

I'd prefer constructive criticism over ppl going in there and flaming me about how items are random and they ruin everything.

Also comparing smash bros to SF is just pointless the games while share a genre are completely different in the they should and are be played.

Also if capcom had put items in SF I'm sure they would allow it to not interfere with the traditional play and would figure out a way to blend that into competitive play.

The first few brawl tourneys such as the ones held at launch and at those game stops if i remember correctly no one had absolutely no problem with the rules and just played the game. Yet now all of a sudden saying the word items with competitive play is taboo?

If your so inclined to play a fighter without items then go play SF or MvC or tekken. If we as a community are ever going to get smash a spot at EVO or brawl to be more precise we need to wake up from our silly little dream that smash bros is perfect without the need to use or try item because it's not. Being stubborn and condoning the use of items in competitive play is also what puts ppl off who are new or casual players who want to try going to tourneys because they know that if they wanted to experience an item-less fighter they could just save themselves the trouble and play a game designed without them aka every other traditional fighter.

 

[Mr.C]

Explosive capsules were the main reason. Randomness was always a side reason. More so that the competitive community got the mindset of "No items," rather than looking at what makes sense. The banning of items as created a lot of flak for competitive Smash, even from their own fanbase. It is time to relook at it.

What makes sense? What makes sense is items being banned, how can you argue otherwise? Having items that randomly spawn on the map and give power disparities is not something you want in a game. One randomly lucky spawned item can completely change the outcome of a competitive series, you want player skill to decide victory not a random beam sword spawning next to you.

Also, not sure how you know it benefits the top when no one has used them in tournaments.

It's called common sense.

In Melee, Fox, Falco, Sheik, Falcon used items better than anyone, thus creating even larger balance disparity.

In Brawl characters like MK, Snake, Diddy, Wario would use items better than anyone, thus creating even larger balance disparity.

Items would help high tier characters more than anyone, because they're already the best. Middle/Low tier characters would have an even harder time trying to keep up, especially in Brawl since there is no way for low tier characters to aerial cancel and the removal of shielding while in the initial dash animation. Adding items would do nothing but break the game.

The point of what I'm writing is that Smash needs to grow. You can ignore everyone and stay in your bubble, but the result is the games will die due to lack of new players and further splintering of the games. The point is to try and change or else the community dies. I think some people see it.

The game needs to grow? There are millions and millions of people that already play this game casually. The casual community doesn't need to grow because this series will always have an extremely large player base. What needs to grow is the competitive community, which consists of actual good players that compete in tournaments.

This game will not die due to lack of new players it will die due to lack of good players. This series would have no competitive scene, this series would have no tournaments and there would be no such thing as Smash Boards if it wasn't for the Melee community. It's pretty easy to understand why people don't want to change the roots of the game.

Want to know what WILL kill Smash Bros? The game developers. If they purposely try to competitively ruin another game, purposely remove depth, and purposely dumb down their next game, Smash Bros. will have no competitive community.

The problem is no one cares. More isn't better if no one is willing to watch you play or join in. The problem with competitive Smash is that it's isolated. Everything is set up for competitive people and is not welcoming of new players. These big tournaments will get the name of Smash out their and would encourage people to join it. It is transparent. Small tournaments do nothing as the only people who care are those already in the inner circle.

Also, prize pools are comparable. EVO and MLG payed about the same, given EVO is a pot play.

This is so untrue it's disgusting lol.

People do care, that's why this community is GIGANTIC. All competitive communities are isolated to an extent, why? Because only the dedicated actually play the game competitively. To say Smash Bros. is isolated when Smash Boards exists for the very reason to help people that want to play seriously find other players around their area is just nonsense. This game is one of the easiest communities to join compared to any other fighting game.

This game is extremely accessible. There are smash fests every single week in pretty much every single city in the U.S, there are tournaments pretty much every two weeks, and there are major tournaments every month.

I know I entered the community with the sole purpose to play Melee competitively. It was extremely easy to find other people that wanted to play and it was extremely easy to find tournaments to play in. I made dozens of close friends that I still know almost 10 years later, became top 10 in Texas when Rob$/Caveman/FLT were top 20 in the USA and enjoyed this game immensely with hundreds of other people that I consistently played with in Texas.

Why? Because I WANTED to play competitively, anyone that WANTS to join the competitive community will, because it's extremely easy. A lot easier than any other game.

 

[Steam]

That's not it at all. There was a thread not to long ago where SF players say they hate the community because of the way they act. They disagree with the item bans because they understand why Melee banned them. Melee banned items because you couldn't turn off exploding capsules. You can in Brawl. But now the argument makes no sense.

it makes plenty of sense. imagine if there was a mode in SF where a player was awarded meter at random. items are more drastic than this brawl. items in general in melee were very tame. in brawl they're overwhelmingly powerful and a good portion of them are unblockable. They can't understand that without actually playing the game. besides smash and SF/marvel tournies are quite separate now. they shouldn't judge us based off of what they hear. because it's bad to generalize.

 

[Strong Badam]

I've been apart of the Melee competitive scene since 2004, I've kept track of the competitive scene since 2003 and I cannot recall a single major tournament that used items.

Items were being tested in tournament before major tournaments such as Tournament GO and etc.. Read Chillendude's "History of a Smasher," there was much debate over whether to ban items between WC and EC.

I'm pretty sure SRKers can't really argue against most arguments to ban items in Brawl. Their main counter argument that is still stronger than any argument you can put forth is the fact that item play was never tested properly in tournament in Brawl.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

If anything items are far less of a threat in brawl ten melee simply because in melee you couldn't control explosive container in brawl you can and what items are unblock able please list a few. and the now top tier characters wouldn't have an easier time getting items simply because of the way the game spawns them and the fact there not character specific and catch able. And No the developer don't kill smash they help build the game to allow more ppl to be able to pick it up. We'll end up killing the game simply because of how single minded we are in how to play the game. There will always be a fine line that separates casual smashers from competitive simply because of the ay we play compared to them and the fact that each side despises the other. Yet in other fighting game community casuals and hardcore player coexist and have no problem with each other.

 

[Mr.C]

Items were being tested in tournament before major tournaments such as Tournament GO and etc.. Read Chillendude's "History of a Smasher," there was much debate over whether to ban items between WC and EC.

I'm pretty sure SRKers can't really argue against most arguments to ban items in Brawl. Their main counter argument that is still stronger than any argument you can put forth is the fact that item play was never tested properly in tournament in Brawl.

Some things don't need to be tested to know they're broken. That's why we have brains.

 

[Strong Badam]

and that's why you will never understand why SRK hates our community

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Thats why MK's stilled banned right? because we have brains so theres no need to test to see if he's not broken with every type of ruleset possible.

 

[Steam]

If anything items are far less of a threat in brawl ten melee simply because in melee you couldn't control explosive container in brawl you can and what items are unblock able please list a few. and the now top tier characters wouldn't have an easier time getting items simply because of the way the game spawns them and the fact there not character specific and catch able. And No the developer don't kill smash they help build the game to allow more ppl to be able to pick it up. We'll end up killing the game simply because of how single minded we are in how to play the game. There will always be a fine line that separates casual smashers from competitive simply because of the ay we play compared to them and the fact that each side despises the other. Yet in other fighting game community casuals and hardcore player coexist and have no problem with each other.

I (and every other competitive player I know) have no problem with casual players. I play with them all the time with items on and everything. it's fun as ****. but I do not want that in tournies where I could win and lose money by them.

and err... gooey bomb, smartbomb, deku nut, warpstar, and plenty others. you had listed them out in another thread. keep in mind items like that can spawn into smash attacks just like exploding capsules. and items are much worse in brawl lol. they made items stupidly effective as part of their "everyone can win " approach with brawl.

and you don't have to play with items in tourney to play just with items in general and see how horrible they'd be in a tourney environment :/

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

just because there unblockable doesn't mean it's not possible to dodge them. And if your so worried about losing your money then you could simply learn to adapt a playstyle that works around items. It's not like they spawn really low on the ground. And just because you think something might not work you can't say it wouldn't simply because how much effort as been put into trying items out in tournaments not enough to warrant a ban.

I'd laugh if Sakurai just said you know what i feel like removing the option to turn items off for the next Smash bros then all that would be left is New players and the casuals who enjoy playing with items and they would start most likely run tournaments. All the while everyone else left to sit and continue debating whether MK needs to be banned or not and also hating sakurai.

 

[Steam]

the items casuals would start running tourneys... and anyone who cared about how they did would get pissed when they get screwed over. it happens all the tiiiime. people rag on brawl already for tripping.

and yeah you can work around many items. the problem is that they are given out essentially at random. THAT is where the problem lies. it's like randomly getting meter in another fighting game or randomly getting an invincible assist in marvel. duuumb.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

So then why don't be ban GnW is side B because his 9 is random or peach's down B because she can pull a bomb out at random or D3's side b because a gordo is random. doesn't matter what you say there still random right? Thats your reasons behind items being banned. Especially when they have intervals in which they spawn depending on the low medium or high setting. The only thing that is random is where they spawn. And also why don't we ban the character slot random as well.

 

[Steam]

So then why don't be ban GnW is side B because his 9 is random or peach's down B because she can pull a bomb out at random or D3's side b because a gordo is random. doesn't matter what you say there still random right? Thats your reasons behind items being banned. Especially when they have intervals in which they spawn depending on the low medium or high setting. The only thing that is random is where they spawn. And also why don't we ban the character slot random as well.

you can't effectively ban those random elements. items are easy to get rid of AND heavily randomize every single matchup in the game on every single stage. Besides, peach can increase the chance of getting a bomb-omb/beam sword by pulling more turnips. same with D3 and GW. there's nothing you can do to increase your chance of getting an item (other than losing apparently). and banning the random button... that's different. because at the character select screen you can easily choose the best option... I mean the most horrible thing that could come from the random button is that person gets their main... which is what they would choose anyways if they didn't choose random... no reason to ban the random button if choosing it only really hurts you.

 

[SmashChu]

What makes sense? What makes sense is items being banned, how can you argue otherwise? Having items that randomly spawn on the map and give power disparities is not something you want in a game. One randomly lucky spawned item can completely change the outcome of a competitive series, you want player skill to decide victory not a random beam sword spawning next to you.

Strong Bad's post explains it. Items have not been tasted in Brawl. That was the argument for having them in EVO 08.

It's called common sense.

In Melee, Fox, Falco, Sheik, Falcon used items better than anyone, thus creating even larger balance disparity.

In Brawl characters like MK, Snake, Diddy, Wario would use items better than anyone, thus creating even larger balance disparity.

Items would help high tier characters more than anyone, because they're already the best. Middle/Low tier characters would have an even harder time trying to keep up, especially in Brawl since there is no way for low tier characters to aerial cancel and the removal of shielding while in the initial dash animation. Adding items would do nothing but break the game.

You didn't really explain it. You just listed characters. Be specific.

The game needs to grow? There are millions and millions of people that already play this game casually. The casual community doesn't need to grow because this series will always have an extremely large player base. What needs to grow is the competitive community, which consists of actual good players that compete in tournaments.

That's what I meant. I was hoping it was clear from the context of my post.

This game will not die due to lack of new players it will die due to lack of good players. This series would have no competitive scene, this series would have no tournaments and there would be no such thing as Smash Boards if it wasn't for the Melee community. It's pretty easy to understand why people don't want to change the roots of the game.

The post makes no sense. So, the site started with Melee, so everything has to based on that game, despite it is 10 years old and there is Brawl and a fourth one coming it.

If you wish for the community to fall apart, than please, don't let me try and stop you.

Want to know what WILL kill Smash Bros? The game developers. If they purposely try to competitively ruin another game, purposely remove depth, and purposely dumb down their next game, Smash Bros. will have no competitive community.

One of the problems with the transition to Brawl was that the Smash community doesn't want to learn a new game.

Street Fighter III was originally trashed when it came to arcades. The first one was eh at best, the second one was decent but broken, and the third was great. Needless to say, 3s had outstanding graphics and sound design-- but people hated it at first. Same reasons.

-It was too slow.
-The mechanics of Street Fighter were still TOTALLY different.
-The roster was criticized for not having enough SFII favorites included.
-People though the game system rewarded turtling as opposed to offensive rushdown.

There were a lot more, but that's how it was. Look up "History of Street Fighter" articles anywhere and you'll see what I mean. Why the hell you think it took Capcom so long to create IV?

3s of course, is sick. And we look at it now in those terms. But honestly, nearly every complaint lobbied against Brawl since it's release by the smash community(Save for maybe tripping, which is pretty stupid.), is an identical, if not similar complained lobbied against SFIII. The "This game isn't competative" or, "this game will destroy our community" arguments ALL sound really familiar.

This is so untrue it's disgusting lol.

People do care, that's why this community is GIGANTIC. All competitive communities are isolated to an extent, why? Because only the dedicated actually play the game competitively. To say Smash Bros. is isolated when Smash Boards exists for the very reason to help people that want to play seriously find other players around their area is just nonsense. This game is one of the easiest communities to join compared to any other fighting game.

This game is extremely accessible. There are smash fests every single week in pretty much every single city in the U.S, there are tournaments pretty much every two weeks, and there are major tournaments every month.

I know I entered the community with the sole purpose to play Melee competitively. It was extremely easy to find other people that wanted to play and it was extremely easy to find tournaments to play in. I made dozens of close friends that I still know almost 10 years later, became top 10 in Texas when Rob$/Caveman/FLT were top 20 in the USA and enjoyed this game immensely with hundreds of other people that I consistently played with in Texas.

Why? Because I WANTED to play competitively, anyone that WANTS to join the competitive community will, because it's extremely easy. A lot easier than any other game.

Again, talking about the competitive community.

The competitive community is not that big for Smash. It's comparable to other fighting games despite the fact it is the best selling fighting game ever. There aren't a lot of competitive players and Smash tends to always be beaten in numbers at any event it is at (save it's own). The community also has a habit of telling you how to play Smash and why your character sucks (gotten better with Brawl, but it still happens). Not to mention how bizarre the rules are.

 

[Steam]

there's a reason why next to no people who are part of the competitive community want items... we all play with items on every now and again. I for one think it's muchmuchmuch more fun than without. but pretty much everyone who understands the game know items are very bad for competitive balance. even casuals who start to get into smash begin to understand why items are a problem... usually the first time they get totally screwed by them in a serious match XD

if items were legalized... the community would basically die. sure casuals would be happy about it... but most of them wouldn't care about tournies anyways... they're casual gamers for a reason. shortly after the rest of it would die out after people get sick of getting screwed over by random events. it would be like if someone tripped into an fsmash on their last stock in every match 0_0

items are fun and a great inclusion into a great game. but they just aren't fit for competitive play where the desire is to test skill.

and the ratio of sales: size of competitive community is so bad for smash because it's a mainstream casual game. the same can't be said for other fighting games. sure street fighter is known by the casual gamer, but not something they want to buy. smash gets the large sales due to accessibility, items are a big part of this.

 

[Mr.C]

Street Fighter III was originally trashed when it came to arcades. The first one was eh at best, the second one was decent but broken, and the third was great. Needless to say, 3s had outstanding graphics and sound design-- but people hated it at first. Same reasons.

-It was too slow.
-The mechanics of Street Fighter were still TOTALLY different.
-The roster was criticized for not having enough SFII favorites included.
-People though the game system rewarded turtling as opposed to offensive rushdown.

There were a lot more, but that's how it was. Look up "History of Street Fighter" articles anywhere and you'll see what I mean. Why the hell you think it took Capcom so long to create IV?

3s of course, is sick. And we look at it now in those terms. But honestly, nearly every complaint lobbied against Brawl since it's release by the smash community(Save for maybe tripping, which is pretty stupid.), is an identical, if not similar complained lobbied against SFIII. The "This game isn't competative" or, "this game will destroy our community" arguments ALL sound really familiar.

Why do people try and use this as an argument lol? They are two completely different games in two completely different scenarios, posted by some random guy on this forum.

People hated 3's when it first came out and it turned out amazing? Awesome. That doesn't mean Brawl is going to all of a sudden turn into some super amazing in-depth technical game, because it NEVER will, the games engine doesn't allow it. The game has already been out for almost four years and it's still the same stale, boring game that came out in 2008, and nothing will ever change that.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

The only items i can see that could really screw over someone during a match are bombs. and that item is already agreed upon by everyone to be banned even in item based tournaments. Sure a beam sword can spawn right in front of you but it doesn't automatically mean your opponent is dead. And the thing about ppl who understand the game is that they understand how the game is played without items so of course when they use it they can see why they shouldn't be in tournaments. I'm sure we would adapt a different style of play that if items were around(and i don't mean ppl just camping for items). Items are unreliable because you don't know which one is next. You might be able to predict when the next item will show up but what one is a mystery and that mainly because we don't know everything there is on how they work. The game doesn't just pull an item out of a hat and say here spawn. There are values and such that we probably don't know or ratio's that determine what spawns where. PPl figure out frame data and stage transition times but not s single person bothers to figure how item spawning works and where they spawn and how the game decides what item to appear.

And if anything item require more skill than without because your having to constantly reevaluate your opponent if they have an item or if an item appear you'd have to adjust to each one accordingly and it would keep you constantly preparing yourself for whatever is thrown onto the stage.

And it's impossible to say smash's tourney scene would die with item tournaments mainly because we would most likely create rules to limit players abusing them such as we're doing now with MK. Just as there are many reason to ban items there are reason to implement them into tournaments.

And you've said they make the game much more enjoyable which isn't that what tournaments should be about, having fun competing with a bunch of ppl instead of getting wrapped up in the stupid money that a prize?

And if ppl find brawl to be stale and boring why are there ppl willing to go to such lengths such as myself to help form change? The same can be said for Melee the games what, 10 years old and it's still the same fast paced fighter with the same rules and same dying community that trying to 1up the brawl community simply because they find melee superior.

 

[Steam]

you can compete against other people in a not tournament. that's what items are suited for. if you just care about fun then why do tournies? they're about competition.

items don't require more skill. the require a different skillset (a skillset already seen in brawl without items with snake's grenades/banana's etc.) the problem is they introduce a completely random element that gives one player a very very powerful option.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

You can compete and have fun at the same time you know the way you make it seem is that once you enter a tournament it's an auto no fun zone or something in which it isn't.
and also items are a very powerful option yes but all i need to do is simply dodge it and it's gone and items are only as powerful as the person who is using them. And that powerful option is open to everyone and not just diddy, peach, d3, or snake.

And again the only random factor is what and where the items spawn not when. And even to say where is pretty borderline considering there are spawn points just which one is going to mak an item pop up is yet to be discovered. I'm sure ppl would have a blast at an item tournament i doubt ppl would be upset and call it's random because they didn't know how to Z catch a lip stick thrown at them while they were trying to recover as just as easily their opponent could edgehog them or just attack them physically to keep them from recovering.

Final smashes are also apart of each character and some character if not most are balanced around their final smash for example sonic: has great ground mobility barely any KO moves/options but has one of if not the best final smash in the game(if used properly).

Items would help fix some isses such as planking, camping and spamming along with allow every character almost or close too even MU depending on the item on the field. it would also allow more ppl to be able to enter as there's a lower level of entry skill require though overall they probably would still get destroyed, especially by someone who knows what they are doing. Then ppl watching on streams and such wouldn't have to sit through boring matches watching an MK time someone out or watch repetitive ditto's because there would be a variety of different items that could appear to spice up the every match.

 

[Steam]

tournies are fun and competition...if all you want is fun why would you do a tourney?

giving everyone items takes diversity away... from everyone.

items solve planking. though that's already solved by a LGL, without bringing up tons of other issues.

final smashes don't... really solve balance issues... I see a lot of bad final smashes in the low tiers. and a lot of amazing ones in the top tiers.

you doubt people would complain about the randomness of items? how about polling the community? keep in mind it's not like we haven't played with items before. a vast majority of us started out always playing with them. we have experience with BOTH.

also "boringness" can pretty much be solved by banning MK... which seems likely.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Smash shouldn't worry about how other fighting game communities perceives it. All the communities hate each other; it's not a phenomenon that's unique to Smash. Besides, what Average Joe 2-D Fighter thinks about Smash has nothing to do with it being in EVO or MLG.

The major problem with Smash is, as others have mentioned, the lack of professionalism. For anyone who watched Evo, was there any doubt that everyone in the top eight wanted to be first place in their respective game, whether it was Street Fighter, MvC, Tekken or BlazBlue? Weren't the validity of the outcomes above reproach? Meanwhile in Smash, there are constant accusations of sandbagging, bracket manipulation, TO misconduct, thrown sets and splitting. Despite the best efforts of Smash to downplay these as isolated incidents, they form a pattern that no professional tournament organization in their right minds would want to deal with.

 

[-Ran]

If players wanted to have No Item events, they would do so. It is clear that the 'Item scene' has died off and failed to run their own tournaments due to a conversion of their players to the Unity Rule Set. The market, as they say, has spoken.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

The item scene has mainly died off due to us always mocking and condoning the use of them not because there no interest. The issue also roots back to when we first started brawl tournaments we instantly adopted melee's rules which by that time banned items. So right out of the gate ppl who wanted to go to tournaments with items where out of luck. And also their scene dies out because we refuse to support it and only feature none item tournaments so of course a scene that has no outside support will wither and disappear just as our community is doing now we have no one but ourselves to lean on no real major support, not by the games creator or by it's company or other communities willing to help our game get spots at tournaments like MLG and EVO.

Assumptions can always be proven ether false or correct just as I'm saying items should be adopted we won't know because as of late no ones tried, the same can be said for everyone else saying they can't.

 

[SmashChu]

Why do people try and use this as an argument lol? They are two completely different games in two completely different scenarios, posted by some random guy on this forum.

People hated 3's when it first came out and it turned out amazing? Awesome. That doesn't mean Brawl is going to all of a sudden turn into some super amazing in-depth technical game, because it NEVER will, the games engine doesn't allow it. The game has already been out for almost four years and it's still the same stale, boring game that came out in 2008, and nothing will ever change that.

Your right, there is a difference. The Street Fighter community was willing to give it a shot.

The senarios are almost mirrors of each other. Street fighter players gave 3 a fair look over and they liked it. Smash players said it wasn't Melee and forever shoe horned it, solidifying the community's demise.

Smash shouldn't worry about how other fighting game communities perceives it. All the communities hate each other; it's not a phenomenon that's unique to Smash. Besides, what Average Joe 2-D Fighter thinks about Smash has nothing to do with it being in EVO or MLG.

The major problem with Smash is, as others have mentioned, the lack of professionalism. For anyone who watched Evo, was there any doubt that everyone in the top eight wanted to be first place in their respective game, whether it was Street Fighter, MvC, Tekken or BlazBlue? Weren't the validity of the outcomes above reproach? Meanwhile in Smash, there are constant accusations of sandbagging, bracket manipulation, TO misconduct, thrown sets and splitting. Despite the best efforts of Smash to downplay these as isolated incidents, they form a pattern that no professional tournament organization in their right minds would want to deal with.

The professionalism is a big issue, but note that what I have be talking about is how to grow the community (if you all so wish. It's your choice). The reason to expand it is because, unlike other games, Smash players hate the community and refuse to join it. This is a huge problem as the community can't grow. There wont be a competitive community if this isn't solved soon.

Still, the professionalism should be enforced. That is something that can be done down.

If players wanted to have No Item events, they would do so. It is clear that the 'Item scene' has died off and failed to run their own tournaments due to a conversion of their players to the Unity Rule Set. The market, as they say, has spoken.

My argument has been to grow the community and that the current thinking is wrong (as it keeps people away from competitive Smash and prevents it from being in big events). In other words, I'm saying the way Smash is played now (in the scene) is wrong and needs to start over.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Melee players definitely gave Brawl a shot, lol.

They quickly realized it wasn't what they were interested in, because, well, they aren't stupid.

 

[JoFTWin]

Smash is not like every other fighting game..this is true. But that doesn't mean we can't learn from what other communities have done. I am personally against allowing items. Why? Because you can't predict where they land or which item arrives. This alone adds a gamble/randomness factor that can give unfair advantages in tourney play even if they are minor, they are still unpredictable.

Even with that though, I still don't feel the community is making the best decision by not extensively trying out item play and every possible way Brawl could be played "competitively". Even scientists with Ph. Ds run experiments on the simplest of concepts. Once again, why? Because it's professional, but most of all to have proof of their hypothesis. So we should at least test item-play extensively, even if it's just vain protocol.

And lastly, let's not be close-minded. Personally, I don't see why we can't just promote Melee and Brawl equally instead of being so divided. Let both of them co-exist and allow the higher ups like EVO and MLG to decide what games are more fit for their competitions. Whatever they choose, it's all contributing to bringing more exposure to the Smash community as a whole. So it's a win-win situation. The goal is to keep the Smash community alive, not to have everything our way.

Things like banning MK for diversity's sake, I don't see the problem with that. Mind you, I don't think MK is "unbeatable" per se. But that's not the point right now. I mean if 80% of the community played as a wack low-tier character like Zelda or something, hell, I'd say ban that character too if we want to add more of an excitement factor. It's a sacrifice for the greater good. The SF community banned Akuma in SF 2. Why can't MK be our Akuma. (Once again, I'm not saying it's the same situation, the point is we need to be open to everything, like other fighting game communities are)

Whatever the case may be, let's not be close-minded. We need to try everything.

EDIT: This is all under the assumption that we want to be accepted by events like EVO and MLG. I personally don't think we NEED that though. I don't see anything wrong with us being the "indie scene" of the fighting game community. We don't need EVO or MLG to stay alive, we just need more spirit and unity.

 

[Steam]

My argument has been to grow the community and that the current thinking is wrong (as it keeps people away from competitive Smash and prevents it from being in big events). In other words, I'm saying the way Smash is played now (in the scene) is wrong and needs to start over.

if you're implying items again... the current competitive community would prolly all quit. and I really doubt a bunch of casuals would all start playing and not quit due to item BS before long. What it needs more than anything is better advertisement and definitely more professionalism.

 

[-Ran]

If you feel that is what Smash needs, then stop discussing it with people that aren't your target audience. You're looking for acceptance at the wrong venue. You aren't going to change the mines of individuals at the largest No-Item Smash Community in the world which seems to do rather well for itself tournament wise [$1,000 in prizes every month in the US alone, despite a shoddy economy.] So, much like we apply ourselves, secure venues, build our scenes, and so forth, it's your job to do the same for the scene you want to have.

Don't rely on others to do the work for you. If you want a no-item scene, go build it. Everyone can -talk- about what they want, very few are capable of taking the steps to grasp it.

 

[Impmacaque]

Your right, there is a difference. The Street Fighter community was willing to give it a shot.

Don't make me laugh. EVERY melee player I know gave Brawl a shot. It's a garbage game with a garbage engine that isn't even a tenth as complex and competitive as Melee was. The comparison to SF3 is invalid - that's entirely different and completely irrelevant.

If Brawl were actually a worthy successor to melee, we would've found a way to make the transition. Since it isn't, melee players have pretty much either A) quit smashing completely or B) moved on to other games as a competitive outlet. Because most the serious melee players could give less of a **** about Brawl, the current Brawl scene is composed of 75% newcomers who have never played anything BUT Brawl. This ruined the "Smash community".

You want my opinion? Brawl is a very simple, dumbed down game which doesn't have the depth necessary to be a premier competitive game. It'll never be as big as Street Fighter or MvC because the game isn't deep enough to ever be entertaining to watch and difficult to master. There's practically no difference between a great player and an excellent one in brawl, because there are so few advanced mechanics to practice and utilize. The competitive fighting game community sees Brawl as a joke, and they are largely justified in their views.

Melee had a legitimate shot at being a widely known, premier competitive game. Then Brawl came along, split the community in half and basically forced all of us to either move on to the newer, ****ty game, or leave the scene entirely. I for one moved on to other games and have never once felt a desire to join the Brawl competitive community.

 

[Steam]

Don't make me laugh. EVERY melee player I know gave Brawl a shot. It's a garbage game with a garbage engine that isn't even a tenth as complex and competitive as Melee was. The comparison to SF3 is invalid - that's entirely different and completely irrelevant.

If Brawl were actually a worthy successor to melee, we would've found a way to make the transition. Since it isn't, melee players have pretty much either A) quit smashing completely or B) moved on to other games as a competitive outlet. Because most the serious melee players could give less of a **** about Brawl, the current Brawl scene is composed of 75% newcomers who have never played anything BUT Brawl. This ruined the "Smash community".

You want my opinion? Brawl is a very simple, dumbed down game which doesn't have the depth necessary to be a premier competitive game. It'll never be as big as Street Fighter or MvC because the game isn't deep enough to ever be entertaining to watch and difficult to master. There's practically no difference between a great player and an excellent one in brawl, because there are so few advanced mechanics to practice and utilize. The competitive fighting game community sees Brawl as a joke, and they are largely justified in their views.

Melee had a legitimate shot at being a widely known, premier competitive game. Then Brawl came along, split the community in half and basically forced all of us to either move on to the newer, ****ty game, or leave the scene entirely. I for one moved on to other games and have never once felt a desire to join the Brawl competitive community.

you're just dumb. brawl has roughly the same ammount of depth and "complexity" as street fighter. but yes. it is much easier to pick up.

and there is a massive difference between a great player and an excellent one in brawl. consider just how many times you have to hit your opponent to actually win... sure it's pretty easy to take like a stock off of anyone. but actually beating them... good luck. Advanced mechanics don't make a competitive game... but brawl has its fair share. things such as forced get up combos, Shield SDI, a whole slew of item related techs that make or break several matchups... they just aren't things as obvious and universally useful as wave dashing, wavelanding, crouch canceling, etc. and of course brawl IS easier. mainly due to the large buffer system. many other games have large buffer systems. but never really on a game as slow paced as brawl. so I can see where the perception comes from.

and I love melee much more than brawl... it's an extremely fun and competitive game... but not 10 times as complex and competitive as brawl. that's an exaggeration and you give brawl no credit. sure barwl is simpler. but street fighter is simpler than other 2D fighters but you can still find depth in the finer details. same thing with brawl.

 

[Big-Cat]

There's definitely more depth in Street Fighter than Brawl. Sorry, I just had to respond to this.

• Specials with varying versions that each have their own uses.
• Decision to either go for damage or knockdown.
• Resets
• Block high, low, tech grab, crossup or backdash out of pressure or wakeup.
• Meters and using them wisely.

Also, f Brawl took out stuff that Melee had, how does that make Brawl more in depth than Melee?

 

[Mr.C]

you're just dumb. brawl has roughly the same ammount of depth and "complexity" as street fighter. but yes. it is much easier to pick up.

and there is a massive difference between a great player and an excellent one in brawl. consider just how many times you have to hit your opponent to actually win... sure it's pretty easy to take like a stock off of anyone. but actually beating them... good luck. Advanced mechanics don't make a competitive game... but brawl has its fair share. things such as forced get up combos, Shield SDI, a whole slew of item related techs that make or break several matchups... they just aren't things as obvious and universally useful as wave dashing, wavelanding, crouch canceling, etc. and of course brawl IS easier. mainly due to the large buffer system. many other games have large buffer systems. but never really on a game as slow paced as brawl. so I can see where the perception comes from.

and I love melee much more than brawl... it's an extremely fun and competitive game... but not 10 times as complex and competitive as brawl. that's an exaggeration and you give brawl no credit. sure barwl is simpler. but street fighter is simpler than other 2D fighters but you can still find depth in the finer details. same thing with brawl.

No, Brawl is no where near as complex as Melee. The difference in Melee from a good player and a great player is extremely large and extremely noticeable. In Brawl? Not so much. Look at M2k, the people he plays in Brawl couldn't even touch him in Melee, because they suck (very few exceptions) and the only reason why they compete is because Brawl is so one dimensional.

My first Brawl tournament consisted of nothing but people I can easily four stock in Melee, I placed 1st yet they were consistently getting me to 1 stock, and taking sets off of me because this game doesn't punish mistakes nearly as bad as Melee does and this is coming from someone that was ranked #7 on the Texas PR (Three of the people ahead of me where top 20 in the US PR.)

Bad players can get away with bad play in Brawl, to argue otherwise would be nonsense.

Your right, there is a difference. The Street Fighter community was willing to give it a shot.

The senarios are almost mirrors of each other. Street fighter players gave 3 a fair look over and they liked it. Smash players said it wasn't Melee and forever shoe horned it, solidifying the community's demise.

Everyone gave Brawl a shot, it's just garbage plain and simple. Almost every single pro in Melee looked forward to Brawl, played Brawl, and quit Brawl, simply because it's no where near as good as Melee.

Don't make me laugh. EVERY melee player I know gave Brawl a shot. It's a garbage game with a garbage engine that isn't even a tenth as complex and competitive as Melee was. The comparison to SF3 is invalid - that's entirely different and completely irrelevant.

If Brawl were actually a worthy successor to melee, we would've found a way to make the transition. Since it isn't, melee players have pretty much either A) quit smashing completely or B) moved on to other games as a competitive outlet. Because most the serious melee players could give less of a **** about Brawl, the current Brawl scene is composed of 75% newcomers who have never played anything BUT Brawl. This ruined the "Smash community".

You want my opinion? Brawl is a very simple, dumbed down game which doesn't have the depth necessary to be a premier competitive game. It'll never be as big as Street Fighter or MvC because the game isn't deep enough to ever be entertaining to watch and difficult to master. There's practically no difference between a great player and an excellent one in brawl, because there are so few advanced mechanics to practice and utilize. The competitive fighting game community sees Brawl as a joke, and they are largely justified in their views.

Melee had a legitimate shot at being a widely known, premier competitive game. Then Brawl came along, split the community in half and basically forced all of us to either move on to the newer, ****ty game, or leave the scene entirely. I for one moved on to other games and have never once felt a desire to join the Brawl competitive community.

Pretty much this. The Texas Smash community consists of nothing but new Brawl players, old mediocre Melee players that weren't very good and couldn't compete in tournaments for top 10 (so they play Brawl because it's easier) and that's it.

Every single good player, some of the best players in the USA all quit and left the community because Brawl is a terrible game.

These people have no idea how great Melee was because they couldn't actually play it, they didn't have a taste of what the community was like before Brawl and they didn't get a taste of the competitive Melee scene. It's pretty sad.

 

[-Ran]

The thing is, you didn't have to quit Melee. It's just most of the TOs were mediocre players since they give up competing in tournaments in order to run events smoothly. So often times, the local scenes had no willing replacement to the TO that moved on to Brawl. People didn't step up to fill that void until a year or two after Brawl was released. Now Melee is recovering in scenes where it was dead a few months ago. What Melee lost was the pot fillers, they moved on to Brawl since it was the newer game. That's the case in -every- fighting game. The new game will always steal away the easy bracket victories.

 

[Steam]

There's definitely more depth in Street Fighter than Brawl. Sorry, I just had to respond to this.

• Specials with varying versions that each have their own uses.
• Decision to either go for damage or knockdown.
• Resets
• Block high, low, tech grab, crossup or backdash out of pressure or wakeup.
• Meters and using them wisely.

Also, f Brawl took out stuff that Melee had, how does that make Brawl more in depth than Melee?

I never said brawl was more depth than melee. I just said saying that melee was 10 times deeper is a horrible exagerration.

and smash has many things SF doesn't have. namely freeform movement that makes spacing much more complex. and rewarding for good spacing in both move safety and shield pokes. there's also offstage game... DI... landing kill moves...

but for specific counters to your points...
* no varying specials.
*going for damage or knockdown is just like deciding to throw an opponent offstage to put them in a bad position or use a set up throw that can lead to damage
*like every potential string in brawl is a reset :I
*getting up from the ledge, things like snake's Dthrow.
*no meters in smash :0

also still SF is somewhat of the brawl of traditional 2D fighters... it's simpler... slower... but you can still find depth in the finer aspects... that's my point.

@mr.C- I didn't say it wasn't... but I hope you understand 10 times is still an exagerration.

the M2K argument works both ways... how would hungrybox or armada do against M2K in brawl? they'd probably get ***** because they don't play brawl. same thing with a lot of brawl players, they don't play melee as much as they play brawl. skill isnt universal.

the reason they all took you to last stock in brawl is because it was your first brawl tourney. just because you could **** them at melee doesn't mean you can **** them at brawl. you (presumably) put much more time into melee than brawl. but yes I have already said several times brawl is more accessible mainly due to the buffer system.

bad players can't get away with bad play in brawl. they just don't lose a stock over it. the better thing to say the game is more forgiving of mistakes (usually). but you can still be put in a bad position and probably take more damage. so it's not just 9% and then reset all the time...

and then baseless hate. lol.

 

[Mr.C]

The thing is, you didn't have to quit Melee. It's just most of the TOs were mediocre players since they give up competing in tournaments in order to run events smoothly. So often times, the local scenes had no willing replacement to the TO that moved on to Brawl. People didn't step up to fill that void until a year or two after Brawl was released. Now Melee is recovering in scenes where it was dead a few months ago. What Melee lost was the pot fillers, they moved on to Brawl since it was the newer game. That's the case in -every- fighting game. The new game will always steal away the easy bracket victories.

You're absolutely right but it's hard to get people to travel around in Texas when cities can be as far as 1-5 hours away from each other.

Especially when people already gave up on the scene because of Brawl and especially since there will only be 10-20 people attending and 1st place will only be around $50-70 when it use to be 50-100 people and $200-700+, that pretty much wouldn't even cover gas prices.

It's a mix of laziness and a mix of just not caring anymore after so many years of Brawl being the tournament standard, which is pretty sad to be honest.

@mr.C- I didn't say it wasn't... but I hope you understand 10 times is still an exagerration.

the M2K argument works both ways... how would hungrybox or armada do against M2K in brawl? they'd probably get ***** because they don't play brawl. same thing with a lot of brawl players, they don't play melee as much as they play brawl. skill isnt universal.

The transition from Melee to Brawl is only a mental challenge because it's hard to go from a great game to a mediocre one.

The transition from Brawl to Melee is a technical challenge because it's hard to go from a game so easy to a game that requires top notch technical skill.

There's a reason why most of the great Melee players that stuck around to play Brawl are still the best in the world. I'm 100% positive those players can practice Brawl and be great, I'm 100% positive that most Brawl players will never be capable of playing Melee properly.

Yes, skill isn't universal (could be argued for Melee/Brawl since the transition from Melee to Brawl skill wise is so easy), it's learned. Talent is universal, and the skilled mindset is universal. I've played Melee at a professional level, can play Brawl at a professional level, can play Dota/HoN/LoL on a professional level, WoW Arena etc etc.

In the realm of E-Sports a skilled person is a skilled person, it doesn't matter what he plays.

 

[Steam]

The transition from Melee to Brawl is only a mental challenge because it's hard to go from a great game to a mediocre one.

The transition from Brawl to Melee is a technical challenge because it's hard to go from a game so easy to a game that requires top notch technical skill.

There's a reason why most of the great Melee players that stuck around to play Brawl are still the best in the world. I'm 100% positive those players can practice Brawl and be great, I'm 100% positive that most Brawl players will never be capable of playing Melee properly.

Yes, skill isn't universal (could be argued for Melee/Brawl since the transition from Melee to Brawl skill wise is so easy), it's learned. Talent is universal, and the skilled mindset is universal. I've played Melee at a professional level, can play Brawl at a professional level, can play Dota/HoN/LoL on a professional level, WoW Arena etc etc.

In the realm of E-Sports a skilled person is a skilled person, it doesn't matter what he plays.

the transition is easier from melee to brawl. I will admit that. but top melee players couldn't just go to brawl and suddenly be better than people that had been playing brawl for years. same for brawl players going to melee. treating brawl as if it was the minor league will just make people think you're elitist. I mean Zucco for example went from brawl to Marvel and is a very good player... An attitude like that is what divides the smash community and is what is slowly killing it. I don't know why some people have to be so sore or why you can't just enjoy both games for what they are...

the reason that top melee players that played brawl ended up being so good was that they had plenty of experience with smash prior to brawl. so they had a head start compared to those who started with brawl.

 

[Mr.C]

the transition is easier from melee to brawl. I will admit that. but top melee players couldn't just go to brawl and suddenly be better than people that had been playing brawl for years. same for brawl players going to melee. treating brawl as if it was the minor league will just make people think you're elitist. An attitude like that is what divides the smash community and is what is slowly killing it. I don't know why some people have to be so sore or why you can't just enjoy both games for what they are :/

the reason that top melee players that played brawl ended up being so good was that they had plenty of experience with smash prior to brawl. so they had a head start compared to those who started with brawl.

It really depends on the type of players you're talking about. A top Melee player can pick up Brawl for a few weeks and beat anyone outside of the best. It's really IS that easy, that's why a lot of Melee players (the ones that actually play Brawl) are still on top 10 PR for most states. Both games have the same fundamentals for victory, that's why the top Melee players ended being so good at Brawl.

As mean as it sounds, skill wise, Brawl is the Minor League. Honestly, the Smash community will always be divided, it doesn't really matter what people think or what people do, Melee players will want to play Melee and the new wave of casuals will want to play Brawl. They are two completely different games in the same community, people will be divided.

You act like being an elitist is a bad thing. There are tiers in games, there are tiers in players and there are tiers in real life. The only people who complain about elitism in video games are people that aren't very good.

 

[Steam]

It really depends on the type of players you're talking about. A top Melee player can pick up Brawl for a few weeks and beat anyone outside of the best. It's really IS that easy, that's why a lot of Melee players (the ones that actually play Brawl) are still on top 10 PR for most states. Both games have the same fundamentals for victory, that's why the top Melee players ended being so good at Brawl.

As mean as it sounds, skill wise, Brawl is the Minor League. Honestly, the Smash community will always be divided, it doesn't really matter what people think or what people do, Melee players will want to play Melee and the new wave of casuals will want to play Brawl. They are two completely different games in the same community, people will be divided.

You act like being an elitist is a bad thing. There are tiers in games, there are tiers in players and there are tiers in real life. The only people who complain about elitism in video games are people that aren't very good.

as for melee players doing good in brawl... examples? you make brawl sound so easy. why don't you go to some tournies and make yourself some free money?

I have never met a brawl player that isn't accepting of melee. not one. I enjoy the game more than brawl and have interest in playing it. I think the problem lies with melee players :/

you must be trolling... how good games are is completely subjective. I don't see why you can't just play the game you think is better without having to make it clear that you think you and the game you play are better than everyone else :/

 

[NeoBatou]

"As mean as it sounds, skill wise, Brawl is the Minor League"

Mean and unreliable to say for this argument....I think...

 

[FOUREYES]

The Brawl vs. Melee argument is dumb, just play whichever damn game you like more.

In terms of expanding the smash community, I think the best thing we could do is ban MK find a way to bring legitimacy to smash tournaments. Items aren't the way to do it. They don't "level the playing field", they just make characters that are already good better. IMO the best way would be to get more sponsorship. The reason things like Apex and Genesis are so hype is because they actually have some serious money behind them in order to bring the best players in the world to one place and see who is truly the best.

Also, the fact that threads like this degenerate into "Items vs. No Items" or "Brawl vs. Melee" probably doesn't help. We should be figuring out ways to make the community better, not just having the same tired arguments over and over.