EVO made me realize a few things.

[Mr.C]

Brawl does not reward aggressive play styles, that's all there is to it, which is understandable seeing as Lcanceling does not exist and approaching with aerials will do nothing but get you punished outside of maybe 4-5 characters.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

approaching with aerials will do nothing but get you punished outside of maybe 4-5 characters.

You clearly aren't a Brawl player.

 

[Mr.C]

You clearly aren't a Brawl player.

Brawl Bowser just perfectly space Faired your shield, who is about to be punished?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Bowser.

You still aren't a Brawl player.

 

[Mr.C]

Bowser.

You still aren't a Brawl player.

Melee Bowser just perfectly spaced Faired your shield, who isn't going to be punished?

Hint: Bowser.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Bowser.

You still aren't a Brawl player.

 

[Mr.C]

Bowser.

You still aren't a Brawl player.

Check & Mate, valiant effort though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Melee Bowser will be punished from perfectly perfectly spacing his Fair?

You aren't a very bright player.

I said that Bowser won't be punished.

I'd suggest re-reading your question and my answer before insulting my intelligence.

Check & Mate, valiant effort though.

The majority of characters in the game approach with aerials, watching any video will show you that. Approaching isn't always a bad position, you just have to do it cautiously. I still prefer Melee over Brawl, but considering I play both competitively and you (quite apparently) don't, you should probably just shutup before you embarrass yourself further.

 

[Mr.C]

I said that Bowser won't be punished.

I'd suggest re-reading your question and my answer before insulting my intelligence.



The majority of characters in the game approach with aerials, watching any video will show you that. Approaching isn't always a bad position, you just have to do it cautiously. I still prefer Melee over Brawl, but considering I play both competitively and you (quite apparently) don't, you should probably just shutup before you embarass yourself further.

Yes, I reread, apologies...too busy drawing.

 

[o-Serin-o]

I think we do fine without EVO's popularity. We have Apex, Genesis, WHOBO, things like that. We have plenty of representation. We don't need EVO IMO.

All of these tournaments barely break 175+.

EVO easily breaks 1200+.




I think we could do better for representation...

 

[-Ran]

Evo had ~2,400 total competitors split between five official games [SF4:AE, MVC3, BB:CS2, MK9, and Tekken 6]. This amounts to ~480 per game. Genesis 2 had a total of 425 competitors between Brawl and Melee. Considering both of these games have absolutely no support by their developers or evolution in terms of patches/re-releases, that's pretty amazing.

Let's compare for a moment:

SF4:AE - April 4th, 2011.
MVC3 - February 17th, 2011.
BB:CS2 - May 10th, 2011.
MK9 - April 19th, 2011.
Tekken 6 - October 27, 2009. [Was patched in 2010.]

Vs.

Brawl - March 9th, 2009.
Melee - December 3rd, 2001.

Evo doesn't support games that are old*. They allow them to have side events, but they are usually dwarfed by the other events because people aren't -going- to Evo to play the older games. Evo relies on a common fact to survive. Most players do not realize their skill level within the first year of a game being released. Remember all the newbies that would attend your tournaments? When a game is new/fresh people don't know -who- is going to win. They have vague ideas based on past dominance in other games, but most players that attend Evo have hope that 'this is their year.' Since these new games are filled with hype and new players, it allows the industry to sell new items to the players. Thus, you have sponsored teams attending these [and other large events] since they can justify the cost. What would someone sponsor a Smasher for: a new gamecube controller?

By representing the most popular and newest games, they guarantee that their events are going to be large. Since they have the backing of the gaming industry, they are able to have endorsements to lower the cost of attendance or provide large price pools. This also turns it into a spectacle since the creators of the games attend on occasion. Smash isn't going to have this. We couldn't even stream during MLG.

Though we all enjoy Smash, we have to look at it as an outlier. Games usually die out after a year or two competitively when they are fighters. They are either replaced by something fancy, or players move on to a different game the moment they realize that they aren't the best in their region/state. With Smash, we don't have options if we want to continue playing a king of the hill fighter, outside of playing a different Smash game. This is what ties the community together and maintains the user numbers. Though other games might try to come out and emulate Smash [TMNT, Cartoon Network], they all are pale imitations.



*Tekken 6 survives at EVO merely because it is the last game in a major fighting franchise . I can't find the official Evo numbers, but we know first hand from MLG events that Tekken 6 had a poor amount of pull for entrants. Despite this, Sony was throwing money at MLG to keep the events going for Tekken. At CEO [major event before Evo] Tekken 6 had 60 entrants compared to the 300 SF4:AE and MVC3 each had a piece. Smash doesn't have a sponsor behind it pushing for it to remain at a massive event.

 

[Anth0ny]

Of course Brawl (and Melee ; _ ; ) don't stand a chance of getting into Evo. We need to start fresh with Smash 4.

Of course the best case scenario would be having Nintendo's support via sponsorship, but I'm almost certain that won't be happening. Our next best bet would be Madcatz or something. Maybe they could make a USB Gamecube controller for the Wii U? The competitive Smash scene would eat that up, like the FGC with arcade sticks.

 

[SmashChu]

It's not Melee worship, jesus christ why are you so ignorant?

By definition, Brawl is the sequel to Melee and Melee is the sequel to Smash 64. People compare sequels ALL THE TIME. Are they worshipping the past game as well for saying "The previous title does this well but the sequel does it wrong for some reason." There's PLENTY of games that have had sequels that don't do as well because they're deviating from what made the previous title GOOD. Reviewers do it all the bloody time with many different games.

Look at ****ing Duke Nukem Forever. A sequel to Duke Nukem 3D and reviewers compared DNF to DN3D, saying DN3D was a much better game for X reasons and X mechanics and DNF did X mechanics wrong or X things wrong. Does that show those reviewers are worshipping DN3D? Is it REALLY negative to be comparing sequels? No, it's not, it's the natural order of ANY franchise.

I am comparing sequels, that is what I'm doing, that is the only thing you CAN do. If someone asks me what the differences are between Melee and Brawl am I going to flat out lie and tell them they are the same game? No, I'm going to compare and contrast highlighting both the bad and good things each game does and how they are related and come from the same franchise.

Ok, yeah, that's fine. Still a problem though, Just because you can comparable them doesn't mean that's the only thing you do. No one mentions 64. No one talks about Brawl as it's own game. It's just Brawl as compared to Melee. I keep up with Starcraft 2 a lot and you want to know something funny? The topic of Starcraft 1 almost never comes up. Heck, the most you'll hear about Brood War is that you had 12 units in a control group, people want the Reaaver back and inControl mentioned something about the Archon once. Otherwise, people look at Starcraft 2 as Starcraft 2.

The Melee worship is that every discussion, even ones about Brawl, always have to do something with Melee. Melee is always a focus. Always in the center of attention. So much so that, gasp, the competitive community can't just move on. You know, as try another game.

My argument is that Melee is what is killing the community as proof by everyone putting Melee on a grand pedestal. Especially as every argument against Brawl is that it doesn't do X yet Melee does.

Do you get it or are you still going to tell me I'm worshipping a previous title when I am merely comparing the two and showing how Brawl removed mechanics Melee added, it's not just ONE mechanic SmashChu. Non-tumble DI was but only ONE example of a mechanic Melee added that Brawl flat out removed (and actually HAD IN THE GAME AT ONE POINT!!)

NERD RAGE. The reason i honed in on Non-tumble DI is because you made a big deal about ti and said "They removed this. it sucks." yet, at the same time I can not find it anywhere. Heck, as far as I know, you could have made it up. Either way, ti goes back to my previous statements. It's all about Melee.

As for the subject at hand, meh. Items were tested so I have no clue why Evo would use that silly excuse if it is what they are saying. I mean unless they want this to happen on a regular basis.

Even ignoring the random factor with them, even if we know how items spawn with grid lines or something. Smashballs home in on the person who is losing and are easier to break by the loser. We can turn off capsules which were one of the main problems in melee if I recall.

Even then, there are things that are obvious ban. Stages for example, Temple is the main one, it doesn't need testing to see it's busted. Some do, and we did, not all in tournament but we learned what was or wasn't acceptable.

So I dunno why that is a legit reason.

There wasn't any testing. I know because I was here. The ruleset was taken from Melee and put into Brawl. When MrWizard asked for result, everyone gave him what "could" happen when he wanted tournament results. Testing is only done in a tournament setting, and EVO showed you can have a good tournament with items. Notice how the hammer thing happened in a random match, not in a tournament.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

A good tournament where the person who won had both never been heard of before and has never been heard from since? Pretty sure the aim of a tournament is to find who the best player is, if items weren't interfering with results at all, CPU wouldn't have won.

And it makes absolutely 0 sense that the community would die because people are comparing Brawl to Melee. Do you even read what you type?

 

[Djent]

If you go to Socal Brawl's PR Page, you can see CPU's name in the formerly-ranked section. Not positive it was the same person (he's listed as D3 instead of R.O.B.), but I doubt 2 people would have used that tag. Either way, he was never a legendary player or anything, but if I'm right then "never heard of before or since" isn't accurate either.

 

[otter]

It's a shame Smash can't get proper representation considering who the games sell, but I don't think evo has any incentive to bow down to Smash player's insane demands. Making huge game changes without proper testing is just contrary to the mindset most fighting game players have.

I don't think it has much to do with the age of the games, but the drama that is attached to anything smash related. TO's know that they have to give up total control or have be trampled in a see of smelly pokemon fans. It's just not worth it.

One thing is for sure though, get the eff out of MLG asap!

 

[Anth0ny]

Just realized... CPU must be the only player ever to never go to another tournament for the game he won at Evo =P

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If you go to Socal Brawl's PR Page, you can see CPU's name in the formerly-ranked section. Not positive it was the same person (he's listed as D3 instead of R.O.B.), but I doubt 2 people would have used that tag. Either way, he was never a legendary player or anything, but if I'm right then "never heard of before or since" isn't accurate either.

The chance of the name "CPU" being used more than once is astronomically high, not sure why you'd say otherwise. Especially considering it is a different character listed next to his name.

 

[holyv]

Its more than obvious, like, someone just do things that CPU does, he's going to use the CPU tag because of the commentary behind him '-'

 

[Musical Rum]

EVO opened my eyes to how fun MvC3 and SSFIV are to watch. Brawl doesn't compare, it's so slow

Of course there are crap things about all of the fighting games, but Brawl tries hard to not be a competitive fighting game. We probably would not be at EVO anway, too much bias against our 'kiddy game' :/

 

[polarity]

So I'm just reading Smashboards for comedy value (these inferiority complex threads are the best btw) and I guess I'll correct some massive ignorance.

Evo had ~2,400 total competitors split between five official games [SF4:AE, MVC3, BB:CS2, MK9, and Tekken 6]. This amounts to ~480 per game.

That's massively unrepresentative. Most of the Evo attendance is across the two major games, SF4 and MvC3, both of which had ~1500 entrants. Players don't just play one game. For all the non-Capcom games, I'd imagine the vast majority (like, 80+%) probably entered at least one of the Capcom games too.

Evo doesn't support games that are old*. They allow them to have side events, but they are usually dwarfed by the other events because people aren't -going- to Evo to play the older games. Evo relies on a common fact to survive. Most players do not realize their skill level within the first year of a game being released. Remember all the newbies that would attend your tournaments? When a game is new/fresh people don't know -who- is going to win. They have vague ideas based on past dominance in other games, but most players that attend Evo have hope that 'this is their year.'

Absolute nonsense. The vast majority of players know they have no chance of winning. If anything this is a real problem with the scene post-SF4, the spectator mentality that much of the new player base has. Evo is at least as much a meetup and convention as it is a tournament these days. The Evo brand is very strong (how many other fighting game tournaments do you see getting reported on Kotaku, G4 etc.) and a whole ton of people show up that aren't really tournament-goers in general. They don't go with some kind of misguided hope of winning, they go for the experience.

Though we all enjoy Smash, we have to look at it as an outlier. Games usually die out after a year or two competitively when they are fighters. They are either replaced by something fancy, or players move on to a different game the moment they realize that they aren't the best in their region/state.

You're just making this up. Older games managed to last a good 10+ years in tournaments with fairly consistent attendance (Guilty Gear was actually growing until the Evo staff decided to take a **** on the community) though obviously the scale was smaller before SF4. We really have no idea at this point how things will pan out in the post-SF4 generation of fighting games, but SF4's attendance at Evo has increased year on year and it's not like the updates were new enough to give anyone new hope that they could suddenly win if they couldn't before.

With Smash, we don't have options if we want to continue playing a king of the hill fighter, outside of playing a different Smash game.

I find it funny that you people will argue to the death that Smash is a real fighting game, but when it comes down to it players of every other fighting game play multiple games and will move on to another if whatever they're playing loses its appeal, while Smash players act like they don't have any other options and thus must do whatever they can to save Brawl from itself and its community. If it's such a real fighting game some of that skill should be transferrable and you shouldn't be so attached to this one game that everyone seems to agree is inferior to its predecessor. If Smash is so different that you can't/don't want to move to some other fighting game, stop getting your panties in a bunch when people say it isn't a real fighter.

 

[polarity]

As an aside since the whole "wahh items are random" thing came up here, I find it funny that if everyone subscribed to the Smashboards mentality, Texas Hold 'Em would be a dead, unplayed game, rather than one of the most popular and profitable tournament games in the world.

 

[Juushichi]

Polarity, you often find that players do move from smash to other fighters and vice versa.