Fortress | Sveet
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I still don't get why anyone would play any character besides fox
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Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.
- Thread starter P. O. F.
- Start date
Chip.
you know what to do
.Chipmunk.
Smash Ace
atm, fox is too demanding for my fingers.
Niko45
Smash Master
fox is hard
outside of the super cheese uthrow uair (when its working) or shine spikes, he basically requires marth level precision to make sure people don't break out of his combos while maintaining crazy execution
prob the most rewarding char/most depth
and sorry chip I just randomly felt like talking about fox
outside of the super cheese uthrow uair (when its working) or shine spikes, he basically requires marth level precision to make sure people don't break out of his combos while maintaining crazy execution
prob the most rewarding char/most depth
and sorry chip I just randomly felt like talking about fox
Chip.
you know what to do
I feel like a Fox with perfect shield pressure and tech skill is near unbeatable
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
i would have been fine if it had been something like "I feel like a fox with perfect spacing and tech skill is near unbeatable"
but shield pressure..meh fox's shield pressure is garbage..he doesn't even get as large of a combo string on me as falco when he does get in...
I mean characters who combo for less than 50..how can they be scary?
but shield pressure..meh fox's shield pressure is garbage..he doesn't even get as large of a combo string on me as falco when he does get in...
I mean characters who combo for less than 50..how can they be scary?
Advice for a total noob.?Oh and it's PAL.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3N8WfZnA9w (Marf-Puff)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUN3MPpDIC8 (Marf-Sheik)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3N8WfZnA9w (Marf-Puff)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUN3MPpDIC8 (Marf-Sheik)
Last edited:
Chip.
you know what to do
A Fox with perfect shield pressure allows you to do almost nothing. You can roll. If he had perfect pressuring (like TAS perfect) then it limits your options IMMENSELY. He controls your defensive game too much and therefore controls you too much.
What's scary is that some Fox players are getting closer to that level. I.e. Lovage, SW, Javi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Omi9MyweC_I
Great example.
Niko45
Smash Master
The problem with Fox shield pressure is that random shines lead to nothing where with Falco random shines can still be followed up on. Shine grabs are more rewarding but you can just roll out of those. Dair shield stabbing into combos is beast but also situational. I don't think Fox's shield pressure is that great.
Also since he doesn't have a stunning projectile and is relying on pure movement speed to create openings he's not particularly great at even establishing shield pressure in the first place.
Also since he doesn't have a stunning projectile and is relying on pure movement speed to create openings he's not particularly great at even establishing shield pressure in the first place.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
if you're going to talk about TAS theoretical nonsense, then i have a simple solution
marth shield DI's entirely out of shine range after the nair and grabs the fox because human reaction time is too slow to react to shield DIing out of moves and therefore gets shield grabbed.
why does everyone keep talking about this theoretical world where fox is the perfect character
..
honestly fox is a great character, bu tit's not because of his shield pressure or even because of his combos ( i smash DI out of so many of them i would say he gets less than 1/3 of falco gets)..
what makes fox good is simply movement and his amazing nair.
i have had games where i couldn't move from shield against a fox but it was never because the shield pressure was too strong, it was because I was being stupid and predictable with the timing of when i rolled and when i wavedashed out and also because i was letting the fox get greedy and do aerials with no shine to cover it because i was wavedashing out early. to avoid shield pressure just make sure that they are too scared to do rising aerial out of shine or falling aerial out of shine...after that, you will still get punished some, but as long as you aren't predictable on when you move out of shield they aren't going to get you very often with the stupid nair shine nonsense.
marth shield DI's entirely out of shine range after the nair and grabs the fox because human reaction time is too slow to react to shield DIing out of moves and therefore gets shield grabbed.
why does everyone keep talking about this theoretical world where fox is the perfect character
..
honestly fox is a great character, bu tit's not because of his shield pressure or even because of his combos ( i smash DI out of so many of them i would say he gets less than 1/3 of falco gets)..
what makes fox good is simply movement and his amazing nair.
i have had games where i couldn't move from shield against a fox but it was never because the shield pressure was too strong, it was because I was being stupid and predictable with the timing of when i rolled and when i wavedashed out and also because i was letting the fox get greedy and do aerials with no shine to cover it because i was wavedashing out early. to avoid shield pressure just make sure that they are too scared to do rising aerial out of shine or falling aerial out of shine...after that, you will still get punished some, but as long as you aren't predictable on when you move out of shield they aren't going to get you very often with the stupid nair shine nonsense.
Fortress | Sveet
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Fox's drill shine on the back of a shield is actually one of the best shield pressures in the game. On the front of the shield there is a 1 frame gap where you can get grabbed even if you execute properly. But on the back of the shield, they can't jump out at all while you're doing it, and most characters don't have a fast enough move there. A lot of players will WD after an early aerial or after a shine, but thats not really possible against drill shine pressure.
Niko45
Smash Master
so just let the shine hit you while they whiff another dair and you're free
Beat!
Smash Master
Freeeeeeee!
Fortress | Sveet
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Or trapped at the edge. Plus, couldn't you just do that to nair shine pressure?
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
because hes fraudulent
Niko45
Smash Master
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Just jump between the dair and the shine.
Fortress | Sveet
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again, how is that any different than what you can do against fox's other pressure?
danieljosebatista
Smash Journeyman
Hey guys, got another video I would love some feedback on. Please be critical, give me whatever feedback you see fit. I'm tying to get decent after all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hiea03oxHbY&list=PL1CFAAAC72E50BE08&index=4&feature=plpp_video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hiea03oxHbY&list=PL1CFAAAC72E50BE08&index=4&feature=plpp_video
Dart!
Smash Master
Actually this is a bad example
not to disrespect taj but he isn't great vs fox. Marth has spacing tools to defeat fox. This matchup isn't in fox's favor because of Marth...not fox.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
this is true. he openly admits to being really bad against fox.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
well main thing i dislike is him missing his reverse gimp on the first stock...why did it have to be an angled up b
QWA
Smash Apprentice
n00b alert
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDW3Hmfaqyo
I came here a while back asking for help, and it made me considerably better. I'm still a scrub mind you, just a better scrub. I'm working on the more advanced techniques, and my slow fingers have not helped in this task (they are a bit faster now). I can almost wavedash (it's hit or miss, but improving), and I can kinda tech. It's SHFFLing and L-canceling that are making me the most frustrated. I know it's going to take a lot of practice before I can utilize all of these techniques, so nudges in the right direction help me understand what I need to practice the most.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDW3Hmfaqyo
I came here a while back asking for help, and it made me considerably better. I'm still a scrub mind you, just a better scrub. I'm working on the more advanced techniques, and my slow fingers have not helped in this task (they are a bit faster now). I can almost wavedash (it's hit or miss, but improving), and I can kinda tech. It's SHFFLing and L-canceling that are making me the most frustrated. I know it's going to take a lot of practice before I can utilize all of these techniques, so nudges in the right direction help me understand what I need to practice the most.
I think I remember the last time you posted. I'm sure this was stressed last time, but you really need to do whatever you can to play with some actual players. I've been there, I went from 2007 to late 2011 having consistency w/ wavedashing, L canceling, and a few more of the basic staples down. But, I only had one person I know of in my area that played, and that held both of us back from getting invilved competetively.
Its really hard to judge your gameplay off of cpus, but theres definitely a lot of technical improvement you can make.
A lot of this will be a bit over your head for now, but thecrimsonblur put together a really good list of stuff you can practice on your, for marth players. Found here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10954335&postcount=19
Try to focus on your spacing and hitting with the tip as much as possible, especially against cpus. Fast falling is also something that really speeds up your play, try to fast fall whenever appropriate. Marths hitboxes stay out for so short a time, that you generally want to get grounded asap. Also, Marths grab game is boss, learn how it works and how you can use it.
I just woke up so thats all I have for now.
Fastfall more, grab more, when you get link trapped on a platform like that spam utilt/uair and make him wish he never went to a platform. Try and get your edgeguarding a bit more crisp, fsmashing works alright on cpus, but there are so many better things for Marth to do.
And work on that techy stuff
EDIT: Try to roll less too. You're probably using it more as a positioning tool than as a roll, so as you WD more you'll notice your usage of rolling go down, which is a good thing
And work on that techy stuff
EDIT: Try to roll less too. You're probably using it more as a positioning tool than as a roll, so as you WD more you'll notice your usage of rolling go down, which is a good thing
Dart!
Smash Master
yeah you don't want to get inside link and do nothing he can tear you up if you aren't offensively aggressive vs him.
.Ðempt
Certified Ponch
Ref Code: demptisbad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3vs18DQs9Y ------ Skip to 6:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcHOVmGDJoc ------ Skip to 2:46
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11xW3MMDNOU&feature=relmfu ------ Skip to 3:05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEu-GZC5sew&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9yMcqAdfdE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLlUEWpyfrg ------ Only Game 1
I want to improve with him, and any critique would be helpful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3vs18DQs9Y ------ Skip to 6:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcHOVmGDJoc ------ Skip to 2:46
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11xW3MMDNOU&feature=relmfu ------ Skip to 3:05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEu-GZC5sew&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9yMcqAdfdE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLlUEWpyfrg ------ Only Game 1
I want to improve with him, and any critique would be helpful.
Archangel
Smash Hero
hmmm...you have a pretty good Marth. Reminds me a bit of darts at times when you just go in and try whatever you want aggressive and all. I like your movement and the way you make use of the side-B.
If I was you I would try working on change ups and not repeating tactics as often. You got away with it with people who weren't as good but against better and better opposition it kills you more and more. Another thing is you have a beautiful way of giving up your second jump. Either you get hit out of the air or you willingly jump and then Side-b stall and either waveland or go for a FF-Dair. You did it in almost all of your matches and against better players like Green Ranger game 3 for example you got punished very hard for giving up your jump. Last thing I'd say is you should learn to rest on your lead alot more. When you are an up an coming player it's easy to get into a mode where you just want to put on a show and do some fancy stuff but it's better to get the wins under your belt first before you start looking cool. Times when you had a clear lead you would approach without reason or sometimes seemingly without thought. Nairing against shields and then getting grabbed for it. It could be the fact that you also play a Falco alt. I've had this problem as myself but sometimes you get so use to what Falco can do against a shield that you forget Marth isn't a pressure character Without extremely good spacing of retreating aerials.
All in all a pretty good marth.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Dash attack, Dancing blades, and counters are all good things in moderation. Mixing them in with Marth has it's uses from time to time. However, abusing them can be fatal though.
Be warned I'm a Roy main so that might slip into my Marth playing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESko5grHKwM thanks, the sheik is RUN, a ness main
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESko5grHKwM thanks, the sheik is RUN, a ness main
Archangel
Smash Hero
Whoa did this place die as soon as summer hit....well in anycase I'll get to it.
You do sometimes have a Roy habit but imo the better Roy habits didn't show up as much.
There was a moment when you used the Side-B against the sheik at around 2:12 seconds in. It's a hidden gem if you can find the right time to use it. Something I didn't see you use enough especially on that stage when the platforms get real low are the Throw-utilt/fsmash set ups. Backthrow actually becomes useful especially against characters in the sheik weight. It should land her on a platform and set her up for a well deserved spanking at the hands of Marth. You Fsmashed at her too often which would get you seriously hurt against better sheiks. Try to use the cancel dtilts and go for more guaranteed attacks. Fsmash repeatedly will only get you so far.
I didn't mean to use so much fsmash, but he has a habit of con up short so I wanted to punish that.
Also, Marths back throw is useful?
And I rarely use the dtilt because I'm always so disappointed when it doesn't perform like roys.
Also, Marths back throw is useful?
And I rarely use the dtilt because I'm always so disappointed when it doesn't perform like roys.
MT_
Smash Ace
Bthrow is a useful mixup a middish-high percents (character dependent) to get people on platforms. Also, if spacies DI in on bthrow at super high percents (around 130+) it will combo into fsmash/ftilt, so it's a decent mixup.
Ripple
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- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 9,632
Archangel
Smash Hero
MasterShake
Smash Lord
1:22. . . uthrow->usmash->usmash. . . nuff said. . . wtf
but sursly. . . I only watched first link. . . and I noticed a lot of semi-mediocre move choice (coughfsmashhackcough
) and other poor decision-making that either left you in some form of a positional disadvantage or left him alive when he shouldntve been.
And I can point out specific examples of this, but I would just rewatch and see every single spot where you made an overcommitment to hit him while he was less than 20-25%, and that would cover like 85% of the instances im talking about. I feel that %s (especially that of your opponents) make a decent effect on how you should approaching/defending vs specific opponents. . .
aaand. . . im obv dont main this char, so I cant really speak with 100% certainty on this, but you used dashattack a heck of a lot and it didnt seem like the best thing to do like 50% of the time. . .
is it like the go-to for marth vs laser spammy falcos, im guessing?
cause I like walkover->ftilt, myself, at like 40%+
Hi, btw (and yes, I did lurk you =D)
Edit: and obviously Im not saying youre a bad marth, by any means. . .
just when you have two players that are pretty high up there in skill level, I feel like you have to be a little more nitpicky than usual
but sursly. . . I only watched first link. . . and I noticed a lot of semi-mediocre move choice (coughfsmashhackcough
srsly though? I thought we talked about that when I was over there. . .
And I can point out specific examples of this, but I would just rewatch and see every single spot where you made an overcommitment to hit him while he was less than 20-25%, and that would cover like 85% of the instances im talking about. I feel that %s (especially that of your opponents) make a decent effect on how you should approaching/defending vs specific opponents. . .
aaand. . . im obv dont main this char, so I cant really speak with 100% certainty on this, but you used dashattack a heck of a lot and it didnt seem like the best thing to do like 50% of the time. . .
is it like the go-to for marth vs laser spammy falcos, im guessing?
cause I like walkover->ftilt, myself, at like 40%+
Hi, btw (and yes, I did lurk you =D)
Edit: and obviously Im not saying youre a bad marth, by any means. . .
just when you have two players that are pretty high up there in skill level, I feel like you have to be a little more nitpicky than usual