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Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

Stylez

Smash Cadet
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Anyone feel like critiquing some friendlies I had with Armada a month ago?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCMsLwDeN1k#t=22m40s

I play Marth for about 20 minutes starting at that point. The first 8 minutes are Marth dittos and the rest is vs. Fox/Falco.

On one hand I feel like I was really on top of my game, but on the other hand I feel like I missed a bunch of fundamental things.

My god, Marth dittos are so freakin' cool. You were green right? The first things I noticed were just some bad decision making on your part. Upthrow to upair doesn't work when he's at 35%, he can jump out of it. And at 165%, forward throw is just allowing him to live longer. Also, don't dtilt his sheild when you're within shield-grab range.
ALSO, I think @25:10, edgelog+bair covers more options rather than giving him the oppurtunity to return to the map. Pretty sure it does...
 

Ørn

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Haha, yeah I'm green.

I'm not really very comfortable with Marth's throw game yet, so I'm not surprised I messed up there. What would be some good things to do in the ditto? It seems like you simply have to forward throw a lot at low %, and after that I usually upthrow and attempt to juggle.
 

Chip.

you know what to do
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Hit him off the stage and gimp/edgeguard. Any throw is good as long as it gets him closer from bein away from the stage and off the edge; building % doesn't matter that much unless your center stage and the other Marth is at low %. Then you can upthrow, uptilt, upair juggle him.
 

Niko45

Smash Master
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Yea the biggest thing I noticed was that you kept fthrowing Marth back into the middle of the stage instead of throwing him towards the edge where you can either gimp or pin him and just be really gay until he dies. He has escape options from fthrow if he has full room to tech away behind him. Nice marth tho.

I might add more if I get around to rewatching those matches.
 

Archangel

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I forget who, but somebody wanted to take a look at Chaddd vs Articanus and Articanus vs Linguini (This one will be up hopefully tomorrow)
I just watched the video a second ago. He does good vs Ganon. I felt like he could have ledgehop countered or Neut-B at time instead of wavelanding on and shielding all the time but he made it work. Pretty good set. I'll take note of some things.
 

_eternal

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Does regular DI/ASDI on Fox's drill or shine do anything useful or does it have to be SDI? If the latter, do you have to SDI multiple drill hits to get out of it, and can you SDI the shine away to get out of the combo?
 

Archangel

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Not bad. I will say it's good to see Marth's being Marth again. **** what his weaknesses are and **** what he can't do. Just be a Marth....for some reason that helps.
 

Chip.

you know what to do
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Some things I noticed were:

- I could've used more Uthrows
- I should've used utilt after my full hop bair -> fastfall fair spacing when he was on platforms. That would've caught him a few times
- Need to work on gimps on top players more

Cool things:

- I get hella tippers :colorful:
- I survived way too long lol partially cause I did have some dope recoveries/di
 

Niko45

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Few thoughts I'll post them as I watch:

So yea with the grab game you're caught in between because you're fthrow/dthrow tech chasing but you're not doing it on reaction and guessing a lot so you end up playing a high risk high reward game that ultimately imo, will always end up catching up to marth if he tries to play like this long term. You either have to tech chase honestly or use up throw but really up throw is good. Sidenote, recently I've gotten frustrated with fthrow/dthrow tech chase stuff because people are getting too good at just sliding themselves onto the ledge and it seems like there's a pretty big window/space/area for them to do that. Really annoying to get nothing off grab. Just a little tangent, but yea, up throw is good.

Don't up throw to top platform and try to tech chase with nair. Super easy to CC into shield or moves in order to beat it, and now you're out of position if they shield drop or kinda do whatever they want. You either have to recognize that at that position and percent up throw isn't going to yield anything or, if you can get there in time you need to fair/uair/bair depending on where they tech in relation to you. If you have a lot of time, go for dair. :D

You're getting beat by high side B recovery quite a bit. High side B recovery is super obvious on every space animal so instead of walking too close to the ledge too soon and then being force to do things like bair him back into the middle of the stage or get nothing at all if he edge cancels, stay back for a second and then jump fair the high side b. Keep pushing him off stage as he'll probably then side b again immediately and you just jab or do whatever at that point.

You're missing tippers on your bairs quite a bit. Some people don't realize how stupidly high above marth's head this hitbox reaches.

Smash DI lasers away to get out of laser fsmash.

If you're going to be aggressive in pursuing Falco when he's goes to top platform, you've gotta be sure that you're going to hit him. You can't afford to just whiff bairs underneath him entirely or whiff them on his shield. Marth can combo at full hop height but he's in no position to bait or exchange with an OOS opponent from that position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl_zFYDq5Pw This set always struck me as a good example of swinging to HIT on top platform Falco. Especially the dreamland matches. Admittedly tho, this Falco is really obvious about where he's going and way less tricky than someone like Westballz, still tho, concept applies.

Overall your play looks a bit janky and what I like to term "unorganized" (probably the biggest criticism I have of my own play as well). Basically when you're unorganized you kinda roam around unsafely and go for random hits instead of being disciplined and finding the type of hits (like grab) that will start efficient big damage/stock taking combos for you. Random bairs at 0 will not do that. I think basically your spacing is being compromised because you're not powershielding at all. If you can powershield consistently you will establish a presence on the ground and not always be on the outside looking in trying to poke Falco with random stuff while he dominates the stage. As a result, you'll get more grabs and more meaningful hits, and less random pokes or hits that get CC'd into Falco combos.

Edgeguarding also looks like it has much room for improvement. I think you're a bit passive. Spacies 2 good to do it all on reaction anymore. Not saying you need to blind guess what he's going to do, but just realize that at certain knockbacks they favor certain recovery options universally and there are tons of tip offs in their behavior during recovery that will indicate what they are probably going for. Basically my outlook to edgeguarding them now is to get myself into as generally option cover-y a position as I can at the start and as I watch them fall and wait for a DJ I start to develop some sort of idea of what they are going to do and prioritize things that are harder to cover on reaction. This stuff just takes experience (neverending, ongoing process really) and will allow you to be more aggressive in your edgeguards.

Really nice Marth. Stylistically reminds me of my own a lot, actually.
 

Chip.

you know what to do
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Thanks Niko, wow, that's honestly the best advice I've ever gotten on this site. And your Marth looks hella **** so I'll take that as a compliment yo :)
 

knightpraetor

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that advice about holding back and getting fair on high phantasm rather than upair/bair seems good.i think i need to implement that.

don't really agree that spacies can now prevent marth from reactively covering their options....or maybe you are referring to how you need to change your position in advance to cover the falco as he falls...but that is still reactive by my definition since you're not actually committing.

really agree about the problems of throwing toward the ledge. I have been wondering lately whether in marrth vs sheik I should throw toward the ledge where i have good options on the techchase but they may bounce to the ledge 70-80% of the time..or just dthrow them give them stage control but then have an actual techchase option...or upthrow...which seems best but can't get me techchase kill moves so it makes sheik hard to finish
 

Chip.

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the direct link isn't working because it says f@g in the video ID
LOL that's funny

Also, Niko - I don't think I always predict when I tech chase. I think I do a mix-up of both reaction and prediction. Reaction is probably best, but both pay off in their own way
 

Niko45

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I totally get that. I've only see you play one set, I won't try to pretend like I know what your whole game is about lol. Just first impressions really. I'm glad you appreciated the advice.
 

knightpraetor

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i think hard predicting tech in place with fsmash is horrible except in marth dittos and against non top 6.

but hard predicting dair isn't too bad in my experience.

edit: it might not be too bad against peach, i dunno. it all depends on how much you get punished for it if you're wrong and they tech in...i feel like peach will hit you with a dash attack into something maybe? still doesn't seem worth it unless the stage is small.
 

Chip.

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Np, Niko!

I think it's good to predict standup tech after you grab a spacie because it's super hard to react and punish after they do it. They have an easier time to shine/spotdodge/spotdodge-shine before you can react, run, and grab. If they don't standup tech after the grab and you're predicting it then you can still react pretty easily to every other option they have

what's hard predicting?
 

knightpraetor

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hard predicting means doing the move assuming they will tech a certain way. such as grabbing so that even buffering will not allow them to escape..but in general with grabs i just reactively move and do it a little late since you can outrange shine/spotdodge/jab
 

.Chipmunk.

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hard predicting means doing the move assuming they will tech a certain way. such as grabbing so that even buffering will not allow them to escape..but in general with grabs i just reactively move and do it a little late since you can outrange shine/spotdodge/jab
I dunno if I like that definition. To me, hard predicting is doing a move that has enough lag time so that you either get punished if you predict incorrectly or could have gotten punished.

If it's a low lag move you can still get frame advantage or simply get no punish out of it. I would call that a soft prediction.
 

knightpraetor

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no, chip, that's called being bad^_^

I just don't think your definition is useful. we don't need terminology that is used for covering stuff that is strictly bad....and we do need a distinction between techchasing in a way that predicts them doing something as opposed to techchasing in a way that reactively covers both techrolls and then makes a guess as to what they will do out of tech in place

nah to be fair, i see how you could need distinction between predicts that don't cover a spot guaranteed but gain frame advantage and moves that cover a spot guaranteed but don't cost you badly if you're wrong...

meh soft firm and hard? lol
 

.Chipmunk.

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no, chip, that's called being bad^_^

I just don't think your definition is useful. we don't need terminology that is used for covering stuff that is strictly bad....and we do need a distinction between techchasing in a way that predicts them doing something as opposed to techchasing in a way that reactively covers both techrolls and then makes a guess as to what they will do out of tech in place
lol, fair enough.
 

knightpraetor

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honestly though as i've gotten better at covering their options I use less and less medium predicts and have been working on using stronger moves like fair/dair to cover because i can usually protect myself when doing them and one grab barely seems worth it if i'm going to risk not getting anything if they techrolled.

but i guess you're right that against spacies it would still be worth it


I guess my bigger issue with taking super hard predict techchases is that when wrong they get you punished massively since sheik/fox/falco/marth/falcon all have extremely strong punishes, as at high level getting grabbed once can be quite a bit of damage..though i guess it's rare that you don't have the option to at least spotdodge, so i guess if you are certain that regardless of DI the hard predict will get you a kill if they tech in place, then it's worth it.

i gave up on super hard predict and medium predict...just going to say hard predict and people will have to discern whether i'm refering to something risky or not
 

Chip.

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no, chip, that's called being bad^_^

I just don't think your definition is useful. we don't need terminology that is used for covering stuff that is strictly bad....and we do need a distinction between techchasing in a way that predicts them doing something as opposed to techchasing in a way that reactively covers both techrolls and then makes a guess as to what they will do out of tech in place

nah to be fair, i see how you could need distinction between predicts that don't cover a spot guaranteed but gain frame advantage and moves that cover a spot guaranteed but don't cost you badly if you're wrong...

meh soft firm and hard? lol
I was so confused by this post for a second. lol

Let's just refer to myself as the only 'Chip' on the Marth boards, just for distinction purposes.=P
 

knightpraetor

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lol, I just had been thinking for a while that that was chipmunk..your vs fox was pretty good. what's your conception of the matchup..is what i want to ask...but what i really mean is...how often do you approach vs fox and how often are you just camping grab or boxing them out with aerials...honest answer.
 

Chip.

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You usually want to be spamming spaced nairs/fairs at them from a safe, but not too far of a distance to keep your footing against them and only approach them if need be. Generally you don't want to be approaching too much. Fox is moving ALL over the stage so it's better to just keep your footing and look for openings to catch him (with like a grab or aerial). I approach more often only if the Fox realizes he can camp whenever there's a decent gap between him and Marth in which case I'll get up in his face. When I approach it's usually with a nair or fair. Running -> crouch Dtilt and wavedash -> Ftilt are good approaches too.
 

Niko45

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lol, I just had been thinking for a while that that was chipmunk..your vs fox was pretty good. what's your conception of the matchup..is what i want to ask...but what i really mean is...how often do you approach vs fox and how often are you just camping grab or boxing them out with aerials...honest answer.
really really depends on the fox imo

First things first you should always check to see if things like dash away grab on undershot aerials is working and if it is its probably a free win but after that you basically have to see what the fox likes to do.

I feel like there are 3 types of fox players. Super aggro, super campy, and platform heavy.

Against super aggro you need to do things like grab early when they try to overshoot shine approaches or spam stationary/retreating double fairs to snag him coming in

Super campy is the easiest because when you know they won't approach you just go over there and start overshooting grabs/fsmashes/dtilts/dash attacks and they get obliterated. If they camp really hard and then as soon as you make a move to come in they just nair your face or grab you before you can overshoot I like to bait that with a dash forward into a quick WD in place. WD in place is amazing for quickly establishing the precise spacing that you want for pressure or outspacing their options and is essential for Marth's pressure game.

Platform heavy you just have to know when to chase and when to stay grounded. Basically try to read their movement patterns on the platforms and when you're confident they will be in a certain spot at a certain time, swing at it. You have to be very careful about going for full hop aerials at very low percent tho, because that won't combo and can get you in trouble. Camping hard under side platforms is a good way to stop platform heavy stuff all together, tho it often just leads to stalemate.

Obviously better fox players will implement all of these styles at various points to keep you off balance but this is how you deal with each of them. When you're playing someone who mixes it up, you have to recognize...when they like to do what. Fox is a very versatile character and a great punisher but he has ****ty range and no stunning projectile which is pretty much exactly the kind of matchup Marth thrives on.
 
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