ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Reread my post, and you'll see that I did take both points into account.
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Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.
- Thread starter P. O. F.
- Start date
stopNstart
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2010
- Messages
- 228
against sh-nair, Lord taught me to wd back --> cc grab and if they start reading you wit extended dash-attack , retreating sh f-air works. but maybe this is too basic.
and full hop nair he just told me to cc it too lol or dash dance camp it
and full hop nair he just told me to cc it too lol or dash dance camp it
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
marth's tipper dsmash *****
you guys don't even know
you guys don't even know
except MT
Niko45
Smash Master
Well said. There's nothing in Marth dittos that is truly safe so I'd much rather be the one applying the pressure than being pressured.
Unless the Marth you're playing is really bad and grossly undershoots dash attacks/aerials wait and punish will get you ****ed up. Or more realistically only after a series of good approaches you condition them to expect pressure and you bait them to throw out moves in anticipation of an approach it also becomes viable.
I'll have more thoughts for MT later.
And any Marth struggling with Fox's nair literally just needs to hold down and press L + A.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
i prefer X+Z
unless i'm in shield
then i'll hold R and mash A
unless i'm in shield
then i'll hold R and mash A
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
The problem with the X+Z method is that sometimes you randomly d-tilt. I can't figure out why.
Niko45
Smash Master
Idk why you'd jump cancel a stationary crouch cancelled grab. That also requires you to be frame perfect out of cc hit stun.
Where as just holding down and L/R and mashing A is basically buffering it for the same result even if you're hypothetically frame perfect at grabbing out of CC'd hit stun.
Where as just holding down and L/R and mashing A is basically buffering it for the same result even if you're hypothetically frame perfect at grabbing out of CC'd hit stun.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Yeah, I don't know why I do it. The shield mash a method is better in every way.
OverLord
Smash Ace
Approaching is way over rated.
JediSange
Smash Apprentice
It's because your jump is not going off. Crouch and hit z. You'll see what I mean.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Oh, thanks. Makes sense now.
MasterShake
Smash Lord
Here is the set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iuk6DBHCHMc
Also the first match of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWqtNlNR7Lw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iuk6DBHCHMc
Also the first match of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWqtNlNR7Lw
Niko45
Smash Master
Moon:
Way way way too much nair. The spacing is not good on these nairs either. You're undershooting right in front of him making it easy for him to just wait for it and punish. If you're going to use nair you either need to undershoot it much more so that it works as a bait for dash away pivot grabs, or you need to overshoot it much much more so that it actually hits him.
The other problem by approaching from the air so much is that it takes away your crouch cancel, which explains why nair is such a problem for you. Stay grounded. Approach with dtilts and fsmashes, or honestly plain old running up and grabbing works surprisingly well. Always be on the look out for dash away pivot grab opportunities. If you follow this game plan, even when he does break your spacing and manages to nair you you can emergency cc grab and turn his punishes into big punishes for you, which is obviously a massive game changer.
The other thing you should work on is your out of shield game. It seems spotty at times. Sometimes you shield, wait, and WD out accordingly but other times you're getting stuck in shield and allowing him to pressure you further unnecessarily. WD out fsmash is something I really don't like very much anymore and I think it's much better to just wavedash out of the pressure into a dash dance and basically use stage control (and their anxiety that you just escaped their shield pressure) to create openings for you.
Way way way too much nair. The spacing is not good on these nairs either. You're undershooting right in front of him making it easy for him to just wait for it and punish. If you're going to use nair you either need to undershoot it much more so that it works as a bait for dash away pivot grabs, or you need to overshoot it much much more so that it actually hits him.
The other problem by approaching from the air so much is that it takes away your crouch cancel, which explains why nair is such a problem for you. Stay grounded. Approach with dtilts and fsmashes, or honestly plain old running up and grabbing works surprisingly well. Always be on the look out for dash away pivot grab opportunities. If you follow this game plan, even when he does break your spacing and manages to nair you you can emergency cc grab and turn his punishes into big punishes for you, which is obviously a massive game changer.
The other thing you should work on is your out of shield game. It seems spotty at times. Sometimes you shield, wait, and WD out accordingly but other times you're getting stuck in shield and allowing him to pressure you further unnecessarily. WD out fsmash is something I really don't like very much anymore and I think it's much better to just wavedash out of the pressure into a dash dance and basically use stage control (and their anxiety that you just escaped their shield pressure) to create openings for you.
MasterShake
Smash Lord
How do I get out of uthrow uair easiest?
Archangel
Smash Hero
It's so old....It's so gimmicky that I hate to say it but...what's best is "don't get grabbed" I know it's played out...I'm sick of it...*throws up a bit* but it is very true in this case. aside from that you can Superman DI and try to Side-B out but you risk getting hit anyway or go for your own Uair when your around mid-ish percent. try to time smash DI'ing the Uair as best as you can so you don't get the full force...thats all you can do really.(that I can think of)
MasterShake
Smash Lord
Lol what's superman DI? Should I try to DI the throw at all? I was thinking why don't I just go straight up, surely the uair would be easy to smash DI then...or is that wrong?
Niko45
Smash Master
DI the up throw behind fox, then DI the up air back in the opposite direction.
stelzig
Smash Lord
Personally, I have most succes smash DIing out of Uair to the right, but I imagine that's just me being able to smash DI more in that direction heh (just like my moonwalk to the right is longer). The whole DI behind fox on the throw and smash DI in the opposite direction never really worked for me, though it does put you at a greater distance from fox if he does get you with the strong hit.
Niko45
Smash Master
Personally I prefer not to go crazy over SDIing up airs and basically the DI behind fox, DI back the other way gives me a chance to SDI, and if not, it minimizes how many more up airs he will get after the initial one.
SDIing fox up air is largely about the fox imperfectly up airing you and in my experience DI behind fox is the most difficult DI for him to up air (for what it's worth). Good foxes will still land this but even still I notice it can get pretty awkward to land at higher percents.
SDIing fox up air is largely about the fox imperfectly up airing you and in my experience DI behind fox is the most difficult DI for him to up air (for what it's worth). Good foxes will still land this but even still I notice it can get pretty awkward to land at higher percents.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Lol @ the complaints about Spam's former signature. I definitely experienced a few crashes from it.
stelzig
Smash Lord
Well yeah I suppose. The fox I play most of the time doesn't time/place his Uair so I can't smash DI it most of the time though 
(however I did find that when another guy randomly decided to play fox against me it got significantly harder to do so maybe I should consider DIing behind fox at least if my smash DI doesn't seem to work out )
(however I did find that when another guy randomly decided to play fox against me it got significantly harder to do so maybe I should consider DIing behind fox at least if my smash DI doesn't seem to work out )
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
If Fox is forced to do an uair while moving in a direction versus jumping straight up, you can get smash DI easier by SDIing in the opposite direction of him momentum.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Superman DI is when you smashDI an Uthrow on an Awkward diagonal angle
.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
Basically what I was going to say. Those nairs were killing him. That and edgeguarding.
The problem I have is that I move around so much in that MU that I almost never have my crouch available to me. Is there any way to help resolve this?
I really want to include CC grab into my Fox game. :/
JC grab is ~3 frames slower than stationary grab. So....there is really no reason to do X+Z. Its worse in every way lolz. Use shield TAI
Archangel
Smash Hero
use the lvl 9 CPU abuse to help. or red turtle shells whatever. Basically just dash all over the place and then crouch cancel when your about to get hit. Get use to doing it during your dash dance games.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
...I think you misunderstood my question :/
What I was saying is that since I am in initial dash frames so often in that matchup, I have a tough time CCing Fox's moves (you can't crouch during an initial dash).
Fortress | Sveet
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Yes you can. You can't crouch to cancel your dash animation, but you can still CC.
Niko45
Smash Master
Yea you can basically CC anything on reaction there's a pretty nice window for it. After a while you just naturally start DIing everything down anyway, at least at low-mid %. And I agree moving a lot is really good against Fox.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Moon, kind of random but you have to tip your U-tilts from zero to some percent if you're gonna throw them onto a platform or they won't knock Fox over and he'll get out of your little combo. Just a small note.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Dart!
Smash Master
That was the scariest thing i've ever seen. and you didn't even fsmash spam. you did worse, you spammed nair...versus FOX.
Archangel
Smash Hero
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
Wait...what? Have I really been wrong about something so fundamental all these years? Really? Woooow.
Are you sure thats not just ASDI down? Is it really the same effect as CC?
Archangel
Smash Hero
you can SDI or CC anytime except when you are in the air you can't CC.....because you can't C.....yea..
MasterShake
Smash Lord
Niko45
Smash Master
Nair is pretty good. In fact it's kind of amazing imo. Just have to space it better.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
ASDI down lets you hit the ground after you get hit.
CCing works a LOT more effectively because crouching (the actual crouching animation) reduces.... knockback and hitstun and all that jazz.
I think Marth's nair might be the most controversial thing in the entire game of Super Smash Bros Melee.
CCing works a LOT more effectively because crouching (the actual crouching animation) reduces.... knockback and hitstun and all that jazz.
I think Marth's nair might be the most controversial thing in the entire game of Super Smash Bros Melee.
Archangel
Smash Hero
agreed. The Upsmash is actually safer than it looks for him
Nair isn't horrible I agree. Spaming it is horrible. Spacing it badly makes it worse. Spacing it well and using it in moderation makes it amazing.
Controversial? How so?
OverLord
Smash Ace
Nair is good against Fox.
Fortress | Sveet
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there isn't much difference between them, really. All you really need to know is that when you get hit, press down and then grab.