ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I liked this, too.
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Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.
- Thread starter P. O. F.
- Start date
ComboTurtle
Smash Lord
critique please
http://www.youtube.com/user/PKClauSD#p/u/8/_vE1MeA-fgE
http://www.youtube.com/user/PKClauSD#p/u/5/A6S9lRCgSrk
the matches are vs peach, falco and falcon
http://www.youtube.com/user/PKClauSD#p/u/8/_vE1MeA-fgE
http://www.youtube.com/user/PKClauSD#p/u/5/A6S9lRCgSrk
the matches are vs peach, falco and falcon
Dart
Smash Lord
Besides sheik...what does everyone think marths next hardest matchup? i'd say falcon/peach *at a metagame level falcon touches you and hes almost guaranteed combo if hes spacing right so you die* it all goes down to who gets the first combo to death really. IMO and peach is deceptively tricky if you aren't able to grab her.
Fortress | Sveet
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Peach isn't marth's hardest, marth is one of peach's hardest.
falcon and fox are both really difficult for marth
falcon and fox are both really difficult for marth
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Peach is useless against Marth.
If you're having issues with Peach, you're letting her inside too much and trying to sword her when she's on the ground.
If you're having issues with Peach, you're letting her inside too much and trying to sword her when she's on the ground.
ComboTurtle
Smash Lord
naw i thought i had critique
Niko45
Smash Master
After sheik I'd say it's split between fox/falco/CF/Ganon.
Fortress | Sveet
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Ganon isn't hard for Marth if you know the matchup. Its even at worst.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
I think thats the point. Pretty much everything after Sheik is even at worst.
Fortress | Sveet
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not fox. i've heard arguments for fox > marth, and in some ways i agree with them. a top level fox (one who knows how to cover all the options and doesn't make many technical errors) really beasts the **** out of marth. Marth can do pretty well back at him, but a lot of it stems from grabs. Marth does have many good ways to land grabs, and his other moves combo into grabs, but i find fox's projectile and overall speed advantage to be really frustrating and difficult to handle as marth.
I still think the MU is even-ish though. I think fox would be marth's 2nd worst matchup, then falcon. Marth > Ganon IMO, though i don't argue it in the MU thread because everytime i say that people feel like being douchebags and riding Kage's ****. I think marth is ganon's 3rd hardest matchup (after spacies). For ganon, marth basically has the same speed as fox but equal range as him. Marth combos ganon really well and also edgeguards him to death easily. On the other side, ganon has to really work to outspace marth and has to use lots of mixups to try and edgeguard him. I was talking to one of the best marth's in the MW (not gonna say names) and he agrees with me that ganon gets wrecked by marth.
I still think the MU is even-ish though. I think fox would be marth's 2nd worst matchup, then falcon. Marth > Ganon IMO, though i don't argue it in the MU thread because everytime i say that people feel like being douchebags and riding Kage's ****. I think marth is ganon's 3rd hardest matchup (after spacies). For ganon, marth basically has the same speed as fox but equal range as him. Marth combos ganon really well and also edgeguards him to death easily. On the other side, ganon has to really work to outspace marth and has to use lots of mixups to try and edgeguard him. I was talking to one of the best marth's in the MW (not gonna say names) and he agrees with me that ganon gets wrecked by marth.
ComboTurtle
Smash Lord
critique please 
Fortress | Sveet
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Youtube is being a ***** right now. I'll watch them and give some advice once youtube stops sucking
Niko45
Smash Master
CrimsonBlur got what I'm saying. All these matchups I mention can be argued even, but the general consensus (at least currently) is that they are slightly disadvantageous for Marth.
I agree, though I think Fox's very slight overall advantage comes ultimately from stage versatility. Marth has the tools to fight Fox on neutrals undoubtedly, but even pound 4 rules didn't eliminate fox's all-around greatness on CP stages, which Marth lacks.
Sheik?
I honestly have so many problems with this argument. Marth does not = fox + range. Marth and Fox have very different properties that make fox much more problematic for Ganon (subtext: shine + moves with hitboxes lasting more than 1/2 a second). Ganon's approach is safer than Marth's imo due to the severity of Ganon's punish (Marth combos are nice, but they aren't equivilently devastating). Ganon also shield stabs the **** out of Marth. As far as edgeguarding goes, well most of Marth's edgeguards on Ganon can be ledge-teched (good DI + high recovery also works at reasonable percentage where nair/fair are giving him too much height and not enough distance from the stage). On the flip side, drop off up air from the ledge/up air at the ledge seems pretty dang good for Ganon. I don't see Ganon working any harder than Marth for edgeguards in this. If anything Marth is going to have to work hard to deal with repeated recovery attempts until a blown ledge tech or 200% rolls around to seal the deal.
Like I can understand someone having an argument, though I'd disagree, that its 55/45 Marth. But to say Marth ***** Ganon, to me, is completely out of the question. Kage vs HBK as example.\
EDIT: More evidence - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0L0OUJkGQk - 2nd match (m2k vs chad)
Fortress | Sveet
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i dont watch videos or accept player vs player as matchup truth. I watched that game of m2k vs chadddd and m2k played really really bad, and still almost won lmao
fox does well against ganon because of his speed and projectile, not his hitboxes or shine. If you compare ganon's hitboxes and priority to anyone else, ganon always has the best. the size of those and the reward is incredible.
As far as marth edgeguarding ganon, if all you're doing is fsmashing from on stage, you're really doing it wrong. Marth should almost always go off stage and kill early. A spike at 0% kills and is untechable until ~40%. Taking ganon's jump with fair is also very effective if he is going low, and kills at any percent. If he ever uses downb or upb you can spike him no matter where he does it. Going high is NOT an option for ganon. He isn't falcon, he doesn't have air mobility to get over people or the few fake outs falcon has because of his air mobility. When ganon goes high he is a sitting duck.
When ganon edgeguards marth he really has to call exactly when marth is going to use his jump and when he will upb. You can live almost every time unless you're predicted. If you upb early and hit ganon, his startup time is too low to hit you before you grab edge in almost all situations. If he goes off stage, you can save your jump and fast fall under him, upb up and reverse the edgeguard. In almost all cases its easier for ganon to lock you onto the edge with bairs and fairs than to kill you with edgeguards straight up. If he grabs edge and forces you on stage, he doesn't really have much to punish you with between his lack of ledge jump and slow aerial start up. If he calls your onstage upb he can do a standard getup then grab->aerial which won't even setup another edgeguard as long as you DI toward the stage then DI the followup correctly (it'll eventually kill tho...). If he does a standard getup and you go for the edge, the edge is yours.
Basically, ganon gets rewarded for reads a lot better but thats just how his character is. If ganon lands all of his reads, or at least a majority of them, then the matchup is even. Otherwise marth *****.
fox does well against ganon because of his speed and projectile, not his hitboxes or shine. If you compare ganon's hitboxes and priority to anyone else, ganon always has the best. the size of those and the reward is incredible.
As far as marth edgeguarding ganon, if all you're doing is fsmashing from on stage, you're really doing it wrong. Marth should almost always go off stage and kill early. A spike at 0% kills and is untechable until ~40%. Taking ganon's jump with fair is also very effective if he is going low, and kills at any percent. If he ever uses downb or upb you can spike him no matter where he does it. Going high is NOT an option for ganon. He isn't falcon, he doesn't have air mobility to get over people or the few fake outs falcon has because of his air mobility. When ganon goes high he is a sitting duck.
When ganon edgeguards marth he really has to call exactly when marth is going to use his jump and when he will upb. You can live almost every time unless you're predicted. If you upb early and hit ganon, his startup time is too low to hit you before you grab edge in almost all situations. If he goes off stage, you can save your jump and fast fall under him, upb up and reverse the edgeguard. In almost all cases its easier for ganon to lock you onto the edge with bairs and fairs than to kill you with edgeguards straight up. If he grabs edge and forces you on stage, he doesn't really have much to punish you with between his lack of ledge jump and slow aerial start up. If he calls your onstage upb he can do a standard getup then grab->aerial which won't even setup another edgeguard as long as you DI toward the stage then DI the followup correctly (it'll eventually kill tho...). If he does a standard getup and you go for the edge, the edge is yours.
Basically, ganon gets rewarded for reads a lot better but thats just how his character is. If ganon lands all of his reads, or at least a majority of them, then the matchup is even. Otherwise marth *****.
Niko45
Smash Master
Just nevermind. This whole post is just wrong or assumes Ganon is bad.
Fortress | Sveet
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Just nevermind. This whole post is just wrong or assumes that anyone with disagreeing opinions must be wrong.
Niko45
Smash Master
My bad. Poor post on my part. Ur not really wrong about anything I just think ur exaggerating and being a bit dismissive of the actual evidence. I'll try to get some Ganon vids and you can show me where I should be ******, etc.
Fortress | Sveet
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Go ahead, i'll try to give tips. I'm not top level but I understand the matchup pretty well i think.
The matchup is all about stage control, more-so than other matchups. Ganon gets one hit and can't combo, but rather takes stage control and forces you to approach by pushing your back to the edge. You never want to be in that situation against a hard hitter like ganon. I find ganon's edge trap to be pretty easy to break with marth compared to less ranged characters like fox because you can more safely gain a small amount of room then punish him if he uses any of his moves.
How I would explain the MU to my friends would be, you have to understand why ganon is a good character before you can understand why ganon is a bad character.
The matchup is all about stage control, more-so than other matchups. Ganon gets one hit and can't combo, but rather takes stage control and forces you to approach by pushing your back to the edge. You never want to be in that situation against a hard hitter like ganon. I find ganon's edge trap to be pretty easy to break with marth compared to less ranged characters like fox because you can more safely gain a small amount of room then punish him if he uses any of his moves.
How I would explain the MU to my friends would be, you have to understand why ganon is a good character before you can understand why ganon is a bad character.
Niko45
Smash Master
Been looking for some recent Ganon/Marth vids in the meantime.
PKM vs Kage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOyLYouH83U&feature=related
Strawhat vs Kage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTVQA0QKRLU&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAHjTGXiruo&feature=related
Hopefully these demonstrate a little about how Ganon can actually use high recovery - he gets hit again, but it can set him up for down B to DJ sweetspot (bc marth had to go high to hit ganon off he's out of position to intercept the down B - Marth needs to anticipate down B pretty early because ganon can up air stage spike him if he's late getting there).
Other things I notice I forgot to mention, which appears in all the vids: trading hits = marth loses. Since they have comparable range, this means the marth player has to outspace the Ganon all the time or he loses. So with comparable range and not wanting to trade hits, Marth is at a spacing disadvantage in this matchup that he then needs to make up for elsewhere if he really is advantaged in the matchup overall.
Marth also really struggles when trying to get on the stage from the ledge. Ganon also struggles from the ledge but somehow, even with less options, it doesn't seem as problematic for him.
It's a very unorthodox Marth matchup because typically Marth loses to fast characters that can evade, force Marth to whiff, and then punish heavily. Here the rolls reverse a bit, where Marth has to respect Ganon's range, forcing marth to move and force a miss + punish. Ganon's lack of mobility isn't a gamebreaking issue because Marth can't challenge Ganon's moves safely and is forced to avoid, which Marth can do just fine, but he is dependent on the Ganon to give him openings from the neutral position or else whatever Marth does isn't safe.
But you could actually say the same is true for Ganon (needing a Marth miss to punish) once you assume the Marth realizes he can't challenge and needs to evade and punish a Ganon miss. So nobody is very safe from neutral position. Then in overall effectiveness, I find both their punish and edgeguard games to achieve comparable results, which is why I'd argue this matchup is close to even.
PKM vs Kage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOyLYouH83U&feature=related
Strawhat vs Kage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTVQA0QKRLU&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAHjTGXiruo&feature=related
Hopefully these demonstrate a little about how Ganon can actually use high recovery - he gets hit again, but it can set him up for down B to DJ sweetspot (bc marth had to go high to hit ganon off he's out of position to intercept the down B - Marth needs to anticipate down B pretty early because ganon can up air stage spike him if he's late getting there).
Other things I notice I forgot to mention, which appears in all the vids: trading hits = marth loses. Since they have comparable range, this means the marth player has to outspace the Ganon all the time or he loses. So with comparable range and not wanting to trade hits, Marth is at a spacing disadvantage in this matchup that he then needs to make up for elsewhere if he really is advantaged in the matchup overall.
Marth also really struggles when trying to get on the stage from the ledge. Ganon also struggles from the ledge but somehow, even with less options, it doesn't seem as problematic for him.
It's a very unorthodox Marth matchup because typically Marth loses to fast characters that can evade, force Marth to whiff, and then punish heavily. Here the rolls reverse a bit, where Marth has to respect Ganon's range, forcing marth to move and force a miss + punish. Ganon's lack of mobility isn't a gamebreaking issue because Marth can't challenge Ganon's moves safely and is forced to avoid, which Marth can do just fine, but he is dependent on the Ganon to give him openings from the neutral position or else whatever Marth does isn't safe.
But you could actually say the same is true for Ganon (needing a Marth miss to punish) once you assume the Marth realizes he can't challenge and needs to evade and punish a Ganon miss. So nobody is very safe from neutral position. Then in overall effectiveness, I find both their punish and edgeguard games to achieve comparable results, which is why I'd argue this matchup is close to even.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
how exactly does the spacing work in marth vs peach roughly?
i know that marth > peach in the air
but im not exactly positive what moves to use in his ground spacing game
i usually just run around and shield, mixed in with grabs and dtilts and bait-> retreating rising nair/fair when they start camping or grabbing.
is that about right?
i know that marth > peach in the air
but im not exactly positive what moves to use in his ground spacing game
i usually just run around and shield, mixed in with grabs and dtilts and bait-> retreating rising nair/fair when they start camping or grabbing.
is that about right?
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Often Peach will run at you intimidatingly. She has her dash attack/grab/shield mix-up. Jab pretty much beats all of these. Jab is virtually unpunishable if you space it. She can't even punish it by CC'ing. If you try to dtilt, you'll find yourself losing to her ridiculously fast dash attack a lot. Plus, if she CC's the dtilt, you might get dsmashed while holding down. >_>
I absolutely love countering her turnips. Sometimes you dash dance away from the turnip, other times shield and fair out of shield, other times catch or jab her turnip. With all this you can effectively mitigate her turnip -> fair game.
Every time you call her jumps, fsmash. Goes without saying. Umm ... dash dance grab ***** Peach. Uthrow puts her in horrendous position. Fthrow with bad DI can combo into fsmash, fair, or dash attack (or if she doesn't DI up can sometimes set up tech chases).
M2K seems to like approaching Peach with dash attack. I guess it's pretty good. Fair >>>> nair in the match-up. Pretty much all I have to say. :nerd:
I absolutely love countering her turnips. Sometimes you dash dance away from the turnip, other times shield and fair out of shield, other times catch or jab her turnip. With all this you can effectively mitigate her turnip -> fair game.
Every time you call her jumps, fsmash. Goes without saying. Umm ... dash dance grab ***** Peach. Uthrow puts her in horrendous position. Fthrow with bad DI can combo into fsmash, fair, or dash attack (or if she doesn't DI up can sometimes set up tech chases).
M2K seems to like approaching Peach with dash attack. I guess it's pretty good. Fair >>>> nair in the match-up. Pretty much all I have to say. :nerd:
Fortress | Sveet
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Yeah a lot of that is true, but it doesn't change the matchup because you don't realize how well marth can beat it.
anyways, on the videos, the first one of kage vs pkm was garbage. Total ****. pkm either doesn't know how to play the MU or was sandbagging like a mofo.
The first strawhat vs kage friendly, watch how the game starts. Kage gets a shieldgrab, which leads to bair. As i said, one hit is just stage control for ganon. Strawhat didn't realize how trapped he was and ended up walking into a ganon fair. Marth off stage, sweetspots jump. You can't edgeguard that. Standup from edge from strawhat, kage bairs him in the face for another edgeguard attempt. Kage holds edge, strawhat goes on stage, kage can't punish. Back to neutral position.
Strawhat sees ganon sitting on a platform and fairs him, then falling uair. That all leads into some easy utilts, then a techchase on a platform. Look at the percents right now. Kage got a combo and 2 edgeguard attemps and got 54%. Strawhat just wildly threw his sword around without too much thought and made 57%. Now look at stage control, Kage has to fight to get his back away from the edge. Strawhat gives him a little room they are both messing up a little tech skill, things go back to neutral.
Kage tries to punish a random shield grab in the middle of nowhere with a ganon sideb. It wiffs, strawhat gets a free grab and edgeguard. Kage grabs edge, rolls immediately, strawhat fair->fsmashes him. Look how he edgeguarded that. He jumped up at kage, tried to fair him, kage had to use his one jump to avoid the fair then was helpless and had to airdodge. Strawhat said "lul" and fsmashed him for an easy kill.
2nd stock, kage reviving has stage control. Strawhat goes to the edge to wait out the invincibility. He gets back on stage, with full stage control, with stand up from edge->roll behind, all because ganon decided to use a move. Strawhat jabs a few times, kage CC dtilts, kage tries to follow up. Strawhat easily gets his defenses in order before ganon can get there. In the end strawhat gets a grab and an early edgeguard. Kage had to upb, but he did it in an awkward area and unexpectedly, so he sort of gets away with it as strawhat messes up his fair->fsmash combo (if after the first fair, he fell thru the platform did another fair then fsmashed, it would have been another edgeguard). Back to neutral.
Just running around the stage, strawhat gets an easy fair because ganon wasn't attacking. Kage gets away to the top platform, and when on the ground ends up with a jab. Trying to follow up the jab, kage gets faired which leads to a few more fairs and ganon is forced to the edge. Kage ledge jumps and goes to the top platform, strawhat over commits with his double jump and gets falling uaired and then edge hogged.
Next stock, strawhat is trying to trap ganon down, but finds it hard with only his invincibility frames, almost gets jabbed but is barely out of range or has a few more frames left. Anyways, he sees ganon enter the air and nairs him, and lucky for him ganon used his 2nd jump. strawhat follows it up well and kage being trapped in the air with no jump has to find a way down or get hit off stage. He decides to downb at the platform, hitting strawhat. Strawhat punishes the lag from the downb and starts a juggle. Kage eventually gets down to bottom while strawhat is on the middle platform. Kage gets a uair, but doesn't even phase strawhat. Strawhat tries to space with a nair->fsmash, and gets fair'd. Strawhat is sort of stuck in the air, getting chased and hit a bit, but eventually gets down with a fair on ganon. Kage in the air, baits strawhat to the air then fast falls below him and uairs. Strawhat out of position, and kage pressuring with uairs. strawhat gets down with a fair and now has an edge trap on kage. Kage tries to break thru with a downb but strawhat nairs him and finishes the edgeguard.
Strawhat sees ganon sitting on a platform and fairs him, then falling uair. That all leads into some easy utilts, then a techchase on a platform. Look at the percents right now. Kage got a combo and 2 edgeguard attemps and got 54%. Strawhat just wildly threw his sword around without too much thought and made 57%. Now look at stage control, Kage has to fight to get his back away from the edge. Strawhat gives him a little room they are both messing up a little tech skill, things go back to neutral.
Kage tries to punish a random shield grab in the middle of nowhere with a ganon sideb. It wiffs, strawhat gets a free grab and edgeguard. Kage grabs edge, rolls immediately, strawhat fair->fsmashes him. Look how he edgeguarded that. He jumped up at kage, tried to fair him, kage had to use his one jump to avoid the fair then was helpless and had to airdodge. Strawhat said "lul" and fsmashed him for an easy kill.
2nd stock, kage reviving has stage control. Strawhat goes to the edge to wait out the invincibility. He gets back on stage, with full stage control, with stand up from edge->roll behind, all because ganon decided to use a move. Strawhat jabs a few times, kage CC dtilts, kage tries to follow up. Strawhat easily gets his defenses in order before ganon can get there. In the end strawhat gets a grab and an early edgeguard. Kage had to upb, but he did it in an awkward area and unexpectedly, so he sort of gets away with it as strawhat messes up his fair->fsmash combo (if after the first fair, he fell thru the platform did another fair then fsmashed, it would have been another edgeguard). Back to neutral.
Just running around the stage, strawhat gets an easy fair because ganon wasn't attacking. Kage gets away to the top platform, and when on the ground ends up with a jab. Trying to follow up the jab, kage gets faired which leads to a few more fairs and ganon is forced to the edge. Kage ledge jumps and goes to the top platform, strawhat over commits with his double jump and gets falling uaired and then edge hogged.
Next stock, strawhat is trying to trap ganon down, but finds it hard with only his invincibility frames, almost gets jabbed but is barely out of range or has a few more frames left. Anyways, he sees ganon enter the air and nairs him, and lucky for him ganon used his 2nd jump. strawhat follows it up well and kage being trapped in the air with no jump has to find a way down or get hit off stage. He decides to downb at the platform, hitting strawhat. Strawhat punishes the lag from the downb and starts a juggle. Kage eventually gets down to bottom while strawhat is on the middle platform. Kage gets a uair, but doesn't even phase strawhat. Strawhat tries to space with a nair->fsmash, and gets fair'd. Strawhat is sort of stuck in the air, getting chased and hit a bit, but eventually gets down with a fair on ganon. Kage in the air, baits strawhat to the air then fast falls below him and uairs. Strawhat out of position, and kage pressuring with uairs. strawhat gets down with a fair and now has an edge trap on kage. Kage tries to break thru with a downb but strawhat nairs him and finishes the edgeguard.
Well i don't really want to keep doing this for 2 more stocks, so i'll just give some easy-ish tips. Don't try and space ganon (or anyone) with fsmash. You can edgeguard with it, you can combo into it, but don't try to lead with it. Not worth it, rarely ever works.
As far as the matchup goes, look at how much baiting kage does and how much strawhat simply goes "lol i'm playing a character who is better in every way and all i have to do is follow this method and i win".
On strawhat's second death, its all because of how he recovered. He tried to jump over ganon which is a big no-no. If you have you're jump you should always always always try to grab the edge with it. Marth is 99% safe off the stage as long as he has his jump. (also, strawhat could have made edge if he did 1 more sideb before his upb, due to how early kage rolled)
also, watch this stock http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAHjTGXiruo#t=1m50s
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Doing full jump double fairs is really risky. All Ganon has to do is shffl an uair, bair or fair in-between the swipes like at 2:26. Then Ganon initiates the sequence of moves that will only lead to Marth's demise.
Fortress | Sveet
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My point is ganon has to read correctly to get a hit, marth simply has to be not read and almost any situation on the stage favors marth.
IDK i'd be on the side of RPS where you only lose if they do a hard counter to you and otherwise you win.
IDK i'd be on the side of RPS where you only lose if they do a hard counter to you and otherwise you win.
ComboTurtle
Smash Lord
i hate this thread
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Whoops.... Nobody critiqued you yet?
I'm a bit busy tonight, but if no one else has yet, I should be able to analyze your videos and give you feedback in the next couple days.
I'm a bit busy tonight, but if no one else has yet, I should be able to analyze your videos and give you feedback in the next couple days.
Fortress | Sveet
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Ah i forgot, i'll watch them on my next smoke break... currently playing majora's mask for the first time :D
edit w/ crit:
Falcon:
When you dthrow him off the stage, there are 2 things he can do. Go low and grab the edge/upb or immediate dj to knee/nair. because of this you have 2 options. 1) wd off the stage with fair/bair then upb him or 2) counter. When trying to take his first stock you did dthrow to wd grab edge which let him get back to the stage when he would otherwise have been dead if you did falling fair.
When you get a grab, dont give him any options to get away. You did a few fthrows before he could tech which lets heavy characters escape a lot easier than spacies. You also did uthrow around 15% which gave you no followup and let him get away. Use dthrow before 10% and a combination of dthrow and fthrow until ~40% when you can either tech chase or uthrow->utilt.
Falco:
Similar to falcon except he is lighter and gets comboed a lot harder. He took you back to one of your best stages, so use it.
When you get him on a platform, use it. Don't space utilts or fsmash, wait for his tech or missed tech and attack on reaction.
In the first game he did a lot of walljump recoveries, and in the 2nd game you had him off the stage but you let him back on easily with another one. Don't spam dtilts after a dthrow. Time a single dtilt to cover the sweetspotted jump (if he goes early you will still hit him) then after that cover whatever he did.
Don't try to control the stage with fsmash. The ONLY time its even viable is when you get them cornered, and then its only 50/50. You tried to fsmash him for rolling behind you, you reacted in time to grab, but instead tried to fsmash and got punished.
When you use fthrow techchase, you have to watch the in place options before you look for any other options. You can cover both tech directions on reaction, but your biggest focus has to be to avoid the quick options. Especially on spacies who can tech in place->shine, you have to be waiting for the tech in place before you move on to the other options.
Learning to powershield would do you good.
You did really bad against shield pressure. It seems like your favorite option is to grab, which has great reward for marth, but its not going to work on good players. If he gets in close, choose your time wisely and WD backwards or roll. If you're lucky he will be too focused on pressuring you and you will get free. If you're not lucky he will be waiting for the roll and will cover it, in which case you have to pay attention to how he does it and come up with your own escape method based on your opponent.
DON'T COUNTER PICK SPACIES TO STADIUM. IDK why you even would want to.
Don't camp your shield. Stay mobile and only shield when there is an attack coming. The game is 80% movement, and you cant move while you're shielding.
Marth shield pressure is a lot different than spacies'. You don't attack the shield repeatedly, but rather stay outside their range and wait. The absolute first option you need to learn to cover is the roll behind. All you have to do is turn around and grab.
Don't edgeguard with fsmash. Edgeguarding with marth is about maximizing the number of options you can cover. If he already got his firefox started before you got into position, try dtilt (covers edge) and then grab/pivot grab if he goes high. If you're there early and he does upb, then just swat him away every time. No risk for you.
If he goes above you with sideb, regrab him and dthrow/uthrow him until he is dead. Don't try to hit him with your sword.
Overall, get better at covering airdodge recovery.
edit w/ crit:
Falcon:
When you dthrow him off the stage, there are 2 things he can do. Go low and grab the edge/upb or immediate dj to knee/nair. because of this you have 2 options. 1) wd off the stage with fair/bair then upb him or 2) counter. When trying to take his first stock you did dthrow to wd grab edge which let him get back to the stage when he would otherwise have been dead if you did falling fair.
When you get a grab, dont give him any options to get away. You did a few fthrows before he could tech which lets heavy characters escape a lot easier than spacies. You also did uthrow around 15% which gave you no followup and let him get away. Use dthrow before 10% and a combination of dthrow and fthrow until ~40% when you can either tech chase or uthrow->utilt.
Falco:
Similar to falcon except he is lighter and gets comboed a lot harder. He took you back to one of your best stages, so use it.
When you get him on a platform, use it. Don't space utilts or fsmash, wait for his tech or missed tech and attack on reaction.
In the first game he did a lot of walljump recoveries, and in the 2nd game you had him off the stage but you let him back on easily with another one. Don't spam dtilts after a dthrow. Time a single dtilt to cover the sweetspotted jump (if he goes early you will still hit him) then after that cover whatever he did.
Don't try to control the stage with fsmash. The ONLY time its even viable is when you get them cornered, and then its only 50/50. You tried to fsmash him for rolling behind you, you reacted in time to grab, but instead tried to fsmash and got punished.
When you use fthrow techchase, you have to watch the in place options before you look for any other options. You can cover both tech directions on reaction, but your biggest focus has to be to avoid the quick options. Especially on spacies who can tech in place->shine, you have to be waiting for the tech in place before you move on to the other options.
Learning to powershield would do you good.
You did really bad against shield pressure. It seems like your favorite option is to grab, which has great reward for marth, but its not going to work on good players. If he gets in close, choose your time wisely and WD backwards or roll. If you're lucky he will be too focused on pressuring you and you will get free. If you're not lucky he will be waiting for the roll and will cover it, in which case you have to pay attention to how he does it and come up with your own escape method based on your opponent.
DON'T COUNTER PICK SPACIES TO STADIUM. IDK why you even would want to.
Don't camp your shield. Stay mobile and only shield when there is an attack coming. The game is 80% movement, and you cant move while you're shielding.
Marth shield pressure is a lot different than spacies'. You don't attack the shield repeatedly, but rather stay outside their range and wait. The absolute first option you need to learn to cover is the roll behind. All you have to do is turn around and grab.
Don't edgeguard with fsmash. Edgeguarding with marth is about maximizing the number of options you can cover. If he already got his firefox started before you got into position, try dtilt (covers edge) and then grab/pivot grab if he goes high. If you're there early and he does upb, then just swat him away every time. No risk for you.
If he goes above you with sideb, regrab him and dthrow/uthrow him until he is dead. Don't try to hit him with your sword.
Overall, get better at covering airdodge recovery.
ComboTurtle
Smash Lord
interesting. As far as the thing with facon goes i sometimes do that d off fair to up b gimp but then i do somtims get kneed for it i guess its a bit of a guessing game and wding onto the edge is like as good as chosing the wrong one automatically. I never really see countered though vs falcon ill have to try it. Also vs falco i try to wd oos lots to tipers but i **** up the timing lots and either get shined or end up spot dodging or something. I really liked what you said about the tech chasing of fast fallers and just reacting to the techs that arent spot techs however sometimes when i do that i react too slow and get spot dodge shined and i have to mind game th spot dodge with a dash dance. I guess my reactions are just bad? And yeah i really do need to work on pressurin shields and waiting for rolls also when someone rolls behind me i always feel inclined to try and pivot grab when i should just tilt the opppsite drection and press z its a bit of a bad habit i guess anyays thanks for the critique ill try to work on all the things you said and ill post more vids soonl hopefully of me winning the upcoming major in aus. But probably not ha.
ComboTurtle
Smash Lord
also sorry that i missed letters in some parts of that post im on my phone
P. O. F.
Smash Ace
Off topic:
I think it can be argued that Marth VS Falco is 40-60 Falcos favor.
Honestly, I think Fox is 10X easier than Falco these days. Falcos are getting so much better at taking care of Marth that it's beyond nerve racking.
Marth definitely beats Ganon 60-40.....you just can't be stupid or treat him like a mid tier or some crappy character.
Falcon is even on FD and Dreamland but I think it is 60-40 Marth on smaller stages such as BF, YS, FOD. Tech chasing him is so beyond broken. Falcon gets ***** by it.
I think it can be argued that Marth VS Falco is 40-60 Falcos favor.
Honestly, I think Fox is 10X easier than Falco these days. Falcos are getting so much better at taking care of Marth that it's beyond nerve racking.
Marth definitely beats Ganon 60-40.....you just can't be stupid or treat him like a mid tier or some crappy character.
Falcon is even on FD and Dreamland but I think it is 60-40 Marth on smaller stages such as BF, YS, FOD. Tech chasing him is so beyond broken. Falcon gets ***** by it.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Ganon is a mid tier character ...
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Dahean got hit out of his FJ Fairs because he didn't retreat them and did them too close.
If he'd retreated then Kage's Uair would have failed.
Even if Ganon is mid-tier, you can't act like he's a normal mid-tier. You have to act like he's a better mid-tier.
If he'd retreated then Kage's Uair would have failed.
Even if Ganon is mid-tier, you can't act like he's a normal mid-tier. You have to act like he's a better mid-tier.
Niko45
Smash Master
You're overestimating Falco and underestimating Ganon and CF. I do agree, though, that fox is noticably easier than falco. I feel like against a good campy falco, if I'm not powershielding I'm not getting an opening at all. I feel like falco much more than fox I need free openings from them screwing up.
Fortress | Sveet
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I disagree, fox is much harder to handle. I'll take lasers over speed and gayness any day.
Not like falco can combo marth very well anyways. He can only start real combos between 20% and 40%, before and after that marth can DI out pretty safely. On stage its relatively even once you know how to deal with lasers, but marth has much better punishment and slightly better edge guards.
On stage, fox basically has the stage advantage on marth that sheik has, but marth can combo and edgeguard fox a hell of a lot better than he can sheik.
Not like falco can combo marth very well anyways. He can only start real combos between 20% and 40%, before and after that marth can DI out pretty safely. On stage its relatively even once you know how to deal with lasers, but marth has much better punishment and slightly better edge guards.
On stage, fox basically has the stage advantage on marth that sheik has, but marth can combo and edgeguard fox a hell of a lot better than he can sheik.
Dart
Smash Lord
IMO Fox Marth/ Falcon Marth are the most stage dependent "even" matchups in the game.
Fox is better on Stadium FoD and can camp on dreamland and top platform Uair **** marth *dl and bf are debatable* marth is better on YS FD and FoD if he can platform trap. Falcons favor in DL Stadium and CP stages *DK64, RC, Brinstar* i'd say its even on FD, Marth is borken on YS and falcon BLOWS on FoD. i'd say falcon has CP stage choice while marth has better first stage overall.
Fortress | Sveet
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i agree with most of that except the stages that favor each character
Sharky
Smash Master
Hey guys =D I'm just starting to pick up melee again, so I know I'm nothing special or anything lol, just looking for suggestions. The first match I play yoshi, and the last match isn't uploaded for some reason, but it's me beating his sheik on FoD. So yeah, here's the second match, and the rest of the set is right there. =)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At0TjW1KSMo&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At0TjW1KSMo&feature=channel
Fortress | Sveet
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I'm back to playing marth :D
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Sharky, I'll check out your match after I get some food.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Work on your movement. You tend to roll when Jiggs is close to you, and that's a bad habit. You want to use wavedashes and dash dancing to put space between you and your opponent. I'd also be willing to give you some in-depth play-by-play critique if you could get some matches of yourself playing better people on YouTube.
Edit 2: The first hit of side-b is really good at catching Jiggs out of the air. Work that in a bit. Nair and ftilt are also excellent for keeping her at bay.
Edit 2: The first hit of side-b is really good at catching Jiggs out of the air. Work that in a bit. Nair and ftilt are also excellent for keeping her at bay.