Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
i'll get some friendlies vs SS in this thread once stab uploads them
EDIT: dunno why i posted this
EDIT: dunno why i posted this
-
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Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.
- Thread starter P. O. F.
- Start date
P. O. F.
Smash Ace
You need to work on spacing. No other way to really put it. Use d tilt if the jigs is ground friendly and is trying to WD into you, roll past you, etc.
Use f tilt and fair to space her in the air and never go toward her. Ftilt is nice sometimes but stick to fair mainly. Always let her come to you. Rarely go for grabs because a good jigs will rest that and put you in a bad spot. Like Chival said, kill the rolls when Jigs is close to you and work on dairing her when shes extremely close or even nair works nicely. I don't like Wavedashing away from her because if you aren't quick enough to react its an easy bair or rest really. Jigs is slow on the ground so a roll away is pretty decent option IMO seeing as Marths back roll is pretty good.
Those are the basics of the match up. Just space and don't let her inside basically. Jab is sometimes nice too.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
When Jiggs does her little dance around my shield, I like to wavedash out and fsmash. Usually catches her.
Also, side-b is too good.
Also, side-b is too good.
P. O. F.
Smash Ace
Side B to u tilt is amazing but good players know how to Di out of it.
Just my little opinion here, but the playstyle wasn't quite aggressive enough. As people have said before, dashdancing and wavedashing are good for mindgames and sometimes even intimidating some less experienced players. I actually didn't think the spacing was too bad, lots of tipper Fsmash's, but make sure to keep in mind all of Marth's moves (tilts, f/b/uair). If it helps, I've seen ken do some tricks where if Jiggs just wasn't falling for that fsmash, he would see a chance where Jiggs was on a platform, get under her, and just Utilt.
P. O. F.
Smash Ace
You don't want to be aggressive against Jigs.
You don't want to be aggressive in ANY fighting game.
You don't want to be aggressive in ANY fighting game.
Dart
Smash Lord
...is that why aggro fox is a legit playstyle in the "ultimate fox guide"?
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
its not a legit play style in the ultimate fox guide. Its labeled as a style. A style =/= a good style
Dart
Smash Lord
Legit=working=/=good
therefore good=/=legit
besides that "good" is a subjective term. effective is probably better to say here.
an aggro fox may not be a "good" strategy but if it works then its legit, if only in that situation.
i could put up more examples but its 2:30 in the morning and im absolutely blasted right now.
BBQ°
Smash Champion
Some friendly matches against Boss Nasty (Peach)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQla2gxSENc
I'll get the 3rd game uploaded when I get around to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQla2gxSENc
I'll get the 3rd game uploaded when I get around to it.
BBQ°
Smash Champion
is anyone going to critique? 
P. O. F.
Smash Ace
is anyone going to critique?
Yes, your spacig needs a little work. You also need to drop the "back to peach" idea when you are trying to edge guard her. Do this every now and then, but you're being way too predictable with this. Marth excels when his opponent is in front of him, we all know this. Jab is actually amazing VS Peach while edge guarding her. Anytime you are trying to d tilt....try jab. It comes out faster and will send her straight below. 9 times out of 10 the Peach will immediately upB and then it is an easy fsmash for more damage/the kill.
Try to kill nairs on stage and use f tilt to punish float cancel if they try to do that. IMO, it works better than fair because you don't need to retreat it to be 100% safe.
Also, I noticed you d threw nerar the ledge to try to get the gimp. I find f throw is ALWAYS your best option unless peach is at like 0-15%....then u throw. I rarely use d throw because f throw combos from literally 0-100%. If peach is a t a higher percent and DI's away you can WD to fsmash or if they don't you can follow up with dash attack or fairs to combo her ***. Don't be afraid to use uair when hse is above you as well. It's pretty good too.
How can Peach safely kill you? She really can't unless you ms space. Remember that. D smash does not exactly **** Marth as much as it does Falcon/spacies so just remember to space, f throw to read di then ****, jab is nice and don't keep your back to peach often. Otherwise, she'll begin ****** you.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
tai i left a comment on game 5, idk if you read it.
otherwise i think you did really well, gj taking games and being close to winning the set. You'll get him next time mirite?me on youtube said:
Niko45
Smash Master
Tai:
First of all, good ****. Some suggestions...
-On stage, Up throw him MORE at mid percents and do MORE fantastic kills. You're doing amazing things when you up throw at 50-60% so try to recognize more often when you have those opportunities.
-Personally, from the middle of the stage I like to tech chase with fthrow. It's easy to know what his options are right in front of you, and you don't have to worry about covering tech away on dthrow. What I would suggest, in general, is that you get very much in the habit of turnaround dtilting after your dthrows. You should also in general mix in some upthrows on to the platforms at low %. Get an up tilt or a quick up air-up tilt and go from there. Dthrow or fthrow off stage is the best option at any % but when you're trying to build damage early on platforms can be very useful.
-Try to avoid approaching with nair. It's almost never a good result. Keep your distance and nair in place => DD away. Force him to approach sometimes. Approaching with shield isn't bad either since you can basically react pretty safely to whatever his reaction is to you approaching him.
-He was taking easy lives off you after he re-spawned and you were DDing around. Use the ledge after kills, or at least mix in shields and WD oos during his invincibility.
-Your edgeguard is a little weird. Bair from the ledge? Your nairs are pretty solid when he recovers high (I've seen people struggle mightily to edgeguard Jeff's high recovery, so kudos). Just fsmash or dtilt if he needs to up B anywhere around the ledge area.
-Dash attack is great, I'm not going to lie, so I'm not going to tell you to stop doing it. But Jeff is a very "jumpy" falcon player. Which is really bad for dash attack/dtilt approaches. Try to mix the dash attack in when he's trying to land instead of catching him from a directly neutral approach. He may just not be the style of falcon that it pays off well on.
Overall, you have one of the better Vs Falcon games that I've seen (Why do most Marths suck at this matchup?). You clearly know the matchup well. Hope my suggestions help.
First of all, good ****. Some suggestions...
-On stage, Up throw him MORE at mid percents and do MORE fantastic kills. You're doing amazing things when you up throw at 50-60% so try to recognize more often when you have those opportunities.
-Personally, from the middle of the stage I like to tech chase with fthrow. It's easy to know what his options are right in front of you, and you don't have to worry about covering tech away on dthrow. What I would suggest, in general, is that you get very much in the habit of turnaround dtilting after your dthrows. You should also in general mix in some upthrows on to the platforms at low %. Get an up tilt or a quick up air-up tilt and go from there. Dthrow or fthrow off stage is the best option at any % but when you're trying to build damage early on platforms can be very useful.
-Try to avoid approaching with nair. It's almost never a good result. Keep your distance and nair in place => DD away. Force him to approach sometimes. Approaching with shield isn't bad either since you can basically react pretty safely to whatever his reaction is to you approaching him.
-He was taking easy lives off you after he re-spawned and you were DDing around. Use the ledge after kills, or at least mix in shields and WD oos during his invincibility.
-Your edgeguard is a little weird. Bair from the ledge? Your nairs are pretty solid when he recovers high (I've seen people struggle mightily to edgeguard Jeff's high recovery, so kudos). Just fsmash or dtilt if he needs to up B anywhere around the ledge area.
-Dash attack is great, I'm not going to lie, so I'm not going to tell you to stop doing it. But Jeff is a very "jumpy" falcon player. Which is really bad for dash attack/dtilt approaches. Try to mix the dash attack in when he's trying to land instead of catching him from a directly neutral approach. He may just not be the style of falcon that it pays off well on.
Overall, you have one of the better Vs Falcon games that I've seen (Why do most Marths suck at this matchup?). You clearly know the matchup well. Hope my suggestions help.
JBM falcon08
Smash Master
Tai I think you have alot of good decisions.
Although, you also go for the read. In alot of situations had you sat in place and covered options, or simpl played it safe by being patient, you wouldn't have been punished.
Some examples are in game 5. You tried to see where he would go on top platform, going for an fsmash instead of waiting, reacting better, or simply grabbing and staying in control. There was also once that he got back on the ledge because you were impatient. You went for the kill to dair him and missed. That allowed him to get back on the stage and punish you.
My advice is make smarter decisions more often, call jeffs decisions and punish him for them, or be more patient and punish by covering options.
Although, you also go for the read. In alot of situations had you sat in place and covered options, or simpl played it safe by being patient, you wouldn't have been punished.
Some examples are in game 5. You tried to see where he would go on top platform, going for an fsmash instead of waiting, reacting better, or simply grabbing and staying in control. There was also once that he got back on the ledge because you were impatient. You went for the kill to dair him and missed. That allowed him to get back on the stage and punish you.
My advice is make smarter decisions more often, call jeffs decisions and punish him for them, or be more patient and punish by covering options.
Dart
Smash Lord
i wish jeff wouldn't sandbag so hard in friendlies...next time take his money! 
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
Its hard for me to give advice because your vs. Falcon game is so much more developed than my own.
All I wanna say is **** thats a good Marf. Good clux.
All I wanna say is **** thats a good Marf. Good clux.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
haaha thanks for the compliments
<3 marth boards
one thing though
nvm i bothered mango about my question
<3 marth boards
one thing though
nvm i bothered mango about my question
Dart
Smash Lord
god**** SS with moonwalk dsmashes are so ****ing hot...idc if this is the marth boards thats insane how he hits people with it
Moxin
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2009
- Messages
- 92
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7o2HZWqg_E
Ref Code: Moxin667
Sorry I only had one vid T.T skip to :25ish for the actual match.
Audio is annoying, so i recommend muting it o.o
Ref Code: Moxin667
Sorry I only had one vid T.T skip to :25ish for the actual match.
Audio is annoying, so i recommend muting it o.o
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Apparently not. I'm watching American Idol right now. When it's done, I'll check out your video.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Moxin667:
Your tech looks pretty solid. Keep working on it, though. There's always room for improvement. You seem to know the gimp setups pretty well, too. You were consistently hitting them. I liked your dash dance and wavedance movement. Your grab spacing is definitely what it needs to be, and so you should keep doing what you're doing in that regard.
As for things you could work on - well, the biggest one is to find good players whom you can regularly play against. The Fox in that video didn't seem to have any respect for the Marth's gimping prowess, and he was constantly approaching you at the ledge, allowing you a free dthrow to set-up for an edgeguard that he lacked nohow to get around. He was also blatantly inexperienced in the art of attacking. Not only did he have essentially zero mix-ups (he did nothing but dash attack and, from time to time, dash grab), he didn't seem to even begin to adapt to your dash dancing away from him or jumping over his ground approach. Once he started running at you, he would never wavedash in place to prepare for your response. He'd never approach with his shield, he didn't seem capable of shffl'ing aerials, or adjusting to your reactive movements. Now I'm not saying you'd necessarily get destroyed by an experienced player. But it's really hard to detect the subtle things you lack in your game when you don't need those tools against an inferior opponent. For example, do you adapt against a Fox who overshoots his aerials/dash attacks. Do you know the chaingrab percents and have mastery over the algorithms to keep Fox in your combos for maximum damage? Do you have a reliable plan if Fox laser and dash dance camps you rather than vice versa? None of these questions can be answered from the video you provided.
If you can find more competent players, I'd highly encourage you to record yourself playing them and to post those matches in this thread. It'd be easier for all of us.
Your tech looks pretty solid. Keep working on it, though. There's always room for improvement. You seem to know the gimp setups pretty well, too. You were consistently hitting them. I liked your dash dance and wavedance movement. Your grab spacing is definitely what it needs to be, and so you should keep doing what you're doing in that regard.
As for things you could work on - well, the biggest one is to find good players whom you can regularly play against. The Fox in that video didn't seem to have any respect for the Marth's gimping prowess, and he was constantly approaching you at the ledge, allowing you a free dthrow to set-up for an edgeguard that he lacked nohow to get around. He was also blatantly inexperienced in the art of attacking. Not only did he have essentially zero mix-ups (he did nothing but dash attack and, from time to time, dash grab), he didn't seem to even begin to adapt to your dash dancing away from him or jumping over his ground approach. Once he started running at you, he would never wavedash in place to prepare for your response. He'd never approach with his shield, he didn't seem capable of shffl'ing aerials, or adjusting to your reactive movements. Now I'm not saying you'd necessarily get destroyed by an experienced player. But it's really hard to detect the subtle things you lack in your game when you don't need those tools against an inferior opponent. For example, do you adapt against a Fox who overshoots his aerials/dash attacks. Do you know the chaingrab percents and have mastery over the algorithms to keep Fox in your combos for maximum damage? Do you have a reliable plan if Fox laser and dash dance camps you rather than vice versa? None of these questions can be answered from the video you provided.
If you can find more competent players, I'd highly encourage you to record yourself playing them and to post those matches in this thread. It'd be easier for all of us.
Moxin
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2009
- Messages
- 92
First of all, thanks for the reply
Yeah, everything about the fox was true... i was mainly just hoping there would be something i could build on/ integrate (i know 1 vid is nothing, just anything that i missed :/). I practice 95% on cpus, and I just wanted something to really focus on until i can drive myself out of town/ state in a few months.
My chain grabs vs spacies could use a bit more work vs human DI (which is mainly why i posted this, and to get input on how i was tech chasing after the grab), though i know the percents for utilt/ uair regrab or fmash, etc. Like i said, I pretty much have access to only cpus atm since i don't know anyone that's any better than the fox :/, so i'll have to keep sticking vastly to tech, i suppose. Oh, and i'll be sure to record anything i can vs better players (pocket sized mino hd ftw).
I was missing a surprising amount of wavelands, and i couple easy edgeguards (dair/ bair) so ill work on those some more... weird vs actual people i guess. Any ideas on the above/ anything I can mix in with my approach, etc would be awesome as well, if there's anything else to see from the vid =x.
Much thanks for the post :D
Yeah, everything about the fox was true... i was mainly just hoping there would be something i could build on/ integrate (i know 1 vid is nothing, just anything that i missed :/). I practice 95% on cpus, and I just wanted something to really focus on until i can drive myself out of town/ state in a few months.
My chain grabs vs spacies could use a bit more work vs human DI (which is mainly why i posted this, and to get input on how i was tech chasing after the grab), though i know the percents for utilt/ uair regrab or fmash, etc. Like i said, I pretty much have access to only cpus atm since i don't know anyone that's any better than the fox :/, so i'll have to keep sticking vastly to tech, i suppose. Oh, and i'll be sure to record anything i can vs better players (pocket sized mino hd ftw).
I was missing a surprising amount of wavelands, and i couple easy edgeguards (dair/ bair) so ill work on those some more... weird vs actual people i guess. Any ideas on the above/ anything I can mix in with my approach, etc would be awesome as well, if there's anything else to see from the vid =x.
Much thanks for the post :D
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Dtilt and dash attack are great approaches against Foxes who like to stay grounded. If the Fox tends to jump when you approach, running in with fsmash works wonders. If you know he's going to double jump, you can just uair. Or if he's going to shield, grab. It basically comes down to reading your opponent.
ComboTurtle
Smash Lord
tbh it looks like you dont really have much experience with good players and you were trying to be as flashy as possible and not really reading anything your opponent did and also your tech skill still needs some work alot of missed wavedashes and wavelands and a few missed l cancels idk cant really say much from the vid.
Moxin
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2009
- Messages
- 92
Err, ok. I said i play 95% against cpus so I obviously havn't had a chance to play anyone good yet and practice reacting to people very much. I know i was obviously missing alot of wavelands since i didn't play for awhile before that, so i was hoping tech would be a smaller part of what people critique.
From the post i basically got "you're bad at this, this, and this, I have no suggestions." So basically all i can do with that is do what i've been doing. I just wanted advice, as in, "it looks like you were being too flashy, etc, do this to fix it."
(Please.)
From the post i basically got "you're bad at this, this, and this, I have no suggestions." So basically all i can do with that is do what i've been doing. I just wanted advice, as in, "it looks like you were being too flashy, etc, do this to fix it."
(Please.)
Niko45
Smash Master
Okay Moxin, don't take the criticism too harshly. I'm gonna try to help you out with some specific things you missed or could do better. It's only one vid, so you may have just missed it once and I don't care if you "normally land it", that's fine. I'm just going to throw out stuff that you missed in this particular vid and if it is something you're already aware of or working on, just dismiss it.
---
You are honestly looking like you've established a decent foundation for yourself to get better, and that once/if you do play better opponents you may be able to adapt or improve your game accordingly. Your movement is fairly fast, but I'm sensing that a lot of your follow ups are things you do out of habit, not on reaction, because they work on this guy and you know it.
Particular stuff:
-When you're on stage you should be up throwing fox, even on dreamland. You can tech chase the entire platform with up air, and if they are directly underneath you, up tilt will still land. In general I think you should look for way more up tilts, because they will open up the amazing combos that you end up needing to beat a great fox. Chaingrabbing is something you can work on against the computer. Lvl 9 will DI vertically always and lvl 1 will DI sideways (tho predictably back and forth, but it at least gives you different DIs to play around with once you get to the point where you need to up tilt).
At 0:36 you want to make sure that you tip this up air. You up air'd too early. Work on short hop fast fall up air as the timing can seem a little awkward at first, but this is really really important for Marth.
At 0:40 you really want to get on to that top platform with a double jump waveland out of fox's up throw. You jumped a little late, didn't get on the platform, and now you're side Bing in the middle of the stage after using your jump. If you get knocked off stage at that point you have no DJ or side B - you're dead. Be very careful about how you use your DJ and side B and get your *** on the platform.
0:45 wreckless getting on the ledge. Wavedash off and fastfall on to the ledge. He could have running shined you for the kill. You also shouldn't be getting on the ledge there at all. At low levels, you can just destroy people with ledgehop aerials bc they just massacre people who aren't ready for them. At higher levels people will kill or at the very least hit you as you try to come up from the ledge much more often than you will hit them. Don't rely on the edge to give you an opening. Focus on your on stage game.
0:57 again going off stage for no reason, and wrecklessly
1:17 it's very tricky to ledgehop dair fox dependably here because there are different angles he can take that will alter the timing of it. Ledgehop and counter is the right move here, which you then follow up accordingly with offstage fair or ledgehog or whatever you read to be the right response to how he Up B's.
1:20 you get stuck in shield. work on wavedashing in and out of shield. You want to be able to transition fluidly from shield to movement and back whenever you please (whether its with wavedashes, short hop aerials, whatever).
1:32 whenever a fox jumps or better yet double jumps right above you like this you should ledgehop with up air. Follow up with up tilt, fsmash offstage, or grab (at really low%). Fox should be dead if he double jumps in front of you like this.
1:43 WALKING IS AMAZING IN MELEE. Notice how you dash danced in the wrong direction and then wavedashed in place in order to set up that edgeguard? Luckily for you he decided not to just regrab the ledge or side B, or else you wouldn't have had time. I also notice you dash danced in the wrong direction, which makes me think you might not be comfortable with starting your dash backwards yet. This is an insanely important tactic for Marth (aerial, dash away immediately is a staple high level Marth technique). Also don't jab his up B in that spot. Use dtilt as it makes it much harder for fox to come back.
1:46 so immediately following that jab you rush down there for maybe a reverse up B and get burned by fire. When fox up Bs this close to the stage, you need to stay on stage and counter his up B as he comes up.
1:57 always DI up throw
2:08 once you get a grab on fox facing away from the stage, you should fthrow to dtilt. It pushes them further from the stage and sets up better edgeguarding. You can run off fair on a good fox (that might work once, and then you'll start finding yourself getting killed for doing it). He can shine stall below stage, DJ into a wall jump back up, DJ regrab the ledge (he didn't do it properly) or DJ air dodge up. Then he'll be on stage and you'll be off stage, getting edgeguarded. Fthrow dtilt and then react.
2:23 again fthrow dtilt
2:31 it is really inexcusable to miss this tech, and you allow him to get a hit and potentially a major follow up combo. That would cost you half a stock or more against a good fox. You might not be very comfortable with GETTING hit. The swiftness of your offensive game may be because you are so focused on it. Once you get hit you need to be ready to DI, and properly, and also to not miss techs and recognize when you can escape and when not.
2:33 To top it off, after you allow him to up air, you knee-jerk react by double jumping and fairing at him. you never want to do this, do not waste your double jump, fairing in that position is predictable - he could just wait for it and shine you or combo you more now with no jump, which should be the end of you.
2:36 MORE OF THIS - dash away grab is too good - if you find that you up tilted slightly early and he's going to land on the ground before you can regrab, jab him and he will stand up automatically for you to then grab(called a jab reset).
2:41 Missed another up air tech chase on platform. Good fox does not give you many opportunities like this, and its critical to execute when you get them.
2:54 you should up tilt or fsmash out of this dash attack, not nair
2:56 you get stuck in shield again, this goes back to being comfortable defensively. Know the timings for shield stun, and wavedash out of shield with an fsmash or do any of the various short hop aerials that would have worked.
2:57 why run and grab here? you should just turn around in place and grab. This goes back to being comfortable standing/walking rather than just dashing for everything. This put you way way out of position (and probably is the reason you missed the grab).
3:00 again, I can not emphasize enough how this type of edgeguard will not work on a good fox. He has way too many options for you to commit off stage here, and more often than not you will find yourself being edgeguarded for it instead of the other way around. Stay on stage, jab/dtilt side B.
3:17 I will say that you have a good instinct to really go for blood once you've landed a backbreaking hit on fox.
In general tho, you are getting so SO much for free because this fox is terrible around the ledge (recovery, him on the ledge, you coming up from the ledge). Please don't take this too harshly, it's difficult to really explain how different this would go if you played a really solid fox.
Up tilt and try to combo into tipper fsmashes more.
---
You are honestly looking like you've established a decent foundation for yourself to get better, and that once/if you do play better opponents you may be able to adapt or improve your game accordingly. Your movement is fairly fast, but I'm sensing that a lot of your follow ups are things you do out of habit, not on reaction, because they work on this guy and you know it.
Particular stuff:
-When you're on stage you should be up throwing fox, even on dreamland. You can tech chase the entire platform with up air, and if they are directly underneath you, up tilt will still land. In general I think you should look for way more up tilts, because they will open up the amazing combos that you end up needing to beat a great fox. Chaingrabbing is something you can work on against the computer. Lvl 9 will DI vertically always and lvl 1 will DI sideways (tho predictably back and forth, but it at least gives you different DIs to play around with once you get to the point where you need to up tilt).
At 0:36 you want to make sure that you tip this up air. You up air'd too early. Work on short hop fast fall up air as the timing can seem a little awkward at first, but this is really really important for Marth.
At 0:40 you really want to get on to that top platform with a double jump waveland out of fox's up throw. You jumped a little late, didn't get on the platform, and now you're side Bing in the middle of the stage after using your jump. If you get knocked off stage at that point you have no DJ or side B - you're dead. Be very careful about how you use your DJ and side B and get your *** on the platform.
0:45 wreckless getting on the ledge. Wavedash off and fastfall on to the ledge. He could have running shined you for the kill. You also shouldn't be getting on the ledge there at all. At low levels, you can just destroy people with ledgehop aerials bc they just massacre people who aren't ready for them. At higher levels people will kill or at the very least hit you as you try to come up from the ledge much more often than you will hit them. Don't rely on the edge to give you an opening. Focus on your on stage game.
0:57 again going off stage for no reason, and wrecklessly
1:17 it's very tricky to ledgehop dair fox dependably here because there are different angles he can take that will alter the timing of it. Ledgehop and counter is the right move here, which you then follow up accordingly with offstage fair or ledgehog or whatever you read to be the right response to how he Up B's.
1:20 you get stuck in shield. work on wavedashing in and out of shield. You want to be able to transition fluidly from shield to movement and back whenever you please (whether its with wavedashes, short hop aerials, whatever).
1:32 whenever a fox jumps or better yet double jumps right above you like this you should ledgehop with up air. Follow up with up tilt, fsmash offstage, or grab (at really low%). Fox should be dead if he double jumps in front of you like this.
1:43 WALKING IS AMAZING IN MELEE. Notice how you dash danced in the wrong direction and then wavedashed in place in order to set up that edgeguard? Luckily for you he decided not to just regrab the ledge or side B, or else you wouldn't have had time. I also notice you dash danced in the wrong direction, which makes me think you might not be comfortable with starting your dash backwards yet. This is an insanely important tactic for Marth (aerial, dash away immediately is a staple high level Marth technique). Also don't jab his up B in that spot. Use dtilt as it makes it much harder for fox to come back.
1:46 so immediately following that jab you rush down there for maybe a reverse up B and get burned by fire. When fox up Bs this close to the stage, you need to stay on stage and counter his up B as he comes up.
1:57 always DI up throw
2:08 once you get a grab on fox facing away from the stage, you should fthrow to dtilt. It pushes them further from the stage and sets up better edgeguarding. You can run off fair on a good fox (that might work once, and then you'll start finding yourself getting killed for doing it). He can shine stall below stage, DJ into a wall jump back up, DJ regrab the ledge (he didn't do it properly) or DJ air dodge up. Then he'll be on stage and you'll be off stage, getting edgeguarded. Fthrow dtilt and then react.
2:23 again fthrow dtilt
2:31 it is really inexcusable to miss this tech, and you allow him to get a hit and potentially a major follow up combo. That would cost you half a stock or more against a good fox. You might not be very comfortable with GETTING hit. The swiftness of your offensive game may be because you are so focused on it. Once you get hit you need to be ready to DI, and properly, and also to not miss techs and recognize when you can escape and when not.
2:33 To top it off, after you allow him to up air, you knee-jerk react by double jumping and fairing at him. you never want to do this, do not waste your double jump, fairing in that position is predictable - he could just wait for it and shine you or combo you more now with no jump, which should be the end of you.
2:36 MORE OF THIS - dash away grab is too good - if you find that you up tilted slightly early and he's going to land on the ground before you can regrab, jab him and he will stand up automatically for you to then grab(called a jab reset).
2:41 Missed another up air tech chase on platform. Good fox does not give you many opportunities like this, and its critical to execute when you get them.
2:54 you should up tilt or fsmash out of this dash attack, not nair
2:56 you get stuck in shield again, this goes back to being comfortable defensively. Know the timings for shield stun, and wavedash out of shield with an fsmash or do any of the various short hop aerials that would have worked.
2:57 why run and grab here? you should just turn around in place and grab. This goes back to being comfortable standing/walking rather than just dashing for everything. This put you way way out of position (and probably is the reason you missed the grab).
3:00 again, I can not emphasize enough how this type of edgeguard will not work on a good fox. He has way too many options for you to commit off stage here, and more often than not you will find yourself being edgeguarded for it instead of the other way around. Stay on stage, jab/dtilt side B.
3:17 I will say that you have a good instinct to really go for blood once you've landed a backbreaking hit on fox.
In general tho, you are getting so SO much for free because this fox is terrible around the ledge (recovery, him on the ledge, you coming up from the ledge). Please don't take this too harshly, it's difficult to really explain how different this would go if you played a really solid fox.
Up tilt and try to combo into tipper fsmashes more.
Moxin
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2009
- Messages
- 92
Wao, perfect. Thanks for such a thorough critique, Niko
I noticed how much i go to the edge, it's kind of obnoxious. I'll stop that. Now that you point it out i really waste DJ and side b alot o.0. Ill fix that +edgeguard/ onstage (offensive and defensive) stuff. And yeah, most of my follow ups were just habit.
I'm surprised you got that much out of the vid, lols.
I noticed how much i go to the edge, it's kind of obnoxious. I'll stop that. Now that you point it out i really waste DJ and side b alot o.0. Ill fix that +edgeguard/ onstage (offensive and defensive) stuff. And yeah, most of my follow ups were just habit.
I'm surprised you got that much out of the vid, lols.
P. O. F.
Smash Ace
Sorry that i've been neglecting my thread. I've been pretty busy this past week.
Class on Saturday is dumb.
Class on Saturday is dumb.
P. O. F.
Smash Ace
Double post because I can.
Moxin-
Your Marth did some pretty cool edge guards. That run off fair to reverse upB was really nice and I enjoyed it.
However, you need to work on a few things.
Chain throws-I noticed early on in the match that you missed a few grabs first stock around 20% in the center of the stage. IMO, it is pretty important to learn the percentages to a science against high level Fox's. He's the best character in the game, us Marths need to utilize everything that we have against him. Dreamland actually is not THAT bad for u throw setups as long as we are not far right or far left on the stage. on platforms i love to do CG to tech chase BS on multi platforms. its fun.
Your edge guarding also needs a little work and you need to learn when to jab, counter, fsmash, etc. Although you got two nice gimps, it was mainly because the Fox was not recovering properly. (Oh yeah, don't try to bair illusion. You're better off just going on stage to save yourself some % because the timing is hard most of the time. Be safe.)
Jab and d tilt-use these on illusion....nothing else. it doesn't work well for Fire fox. (tippering a d tilt is hard IMO when they fire fox...but if you can do it...yay. Not reliable under pressure imo.)
F smash, neu b, counter, fair, reverse upB-use these against Fire Fox. I actually last tournament reverse upB'd someone for the kill on Fd. I liked it. lol. Fair is pretty shakey because Fox will most likely be able to upB again and it will just reset everything from the same position almost.
Niko was right about the side B. It's good that you always face your opponent...some Marths forget we always need to do that but doing side B sometimes can throw people off but it is generally a way for Fox to say, "lol uair/bair" because it makes you fall slower and have more lag.
Moxin-
Your Marth did some pretty cool edge guards. That run off fair to reverse upB was really nice and I enjoyed it.
However, you need to work on a few things.
Chain throws-I noticed early on in the match that you missed a few grabs first stock around 20% in the center of the stage. IMO, it is pretty important to learn the percentages to a science against high level Fox's. He's the best character in the game, us Marths need to utilize everything that we have against him. Dreamland actually is not THAT bad for u throw setups as long as we are not far right or far left on the stage. on platforms i love to do CG to tech chase BS on multi platforms. its fun.
Your edge guarding also needs a little work and you need to learn when to jab, counter, fsmash, etc. Although you got two nice gimps, it was mainly because the Fox was not recovering properly. (Oh yeah, don't try to bair illusion. You're better off just going on stage to save yourself some % because the timing is hard most of the time. Be safe.)
Jab and d tilt-use these on illusion....nothing else. it doesn't work well for Fire fox. (tippering a d tilt is hard IMO when they fire fox...but if you can do it...yay. Not reliable under pressure imo.)
F smash, neu b, counter, fair, reverse upB-use these against Fire Fox. I actually last tournament reverse upB'd someone for the kill on Fd. I liked it. lol. Fair is pretty shakey because Fox will most likely be able to upB again and it will just reset everything from the same position almost.
Niko was right about the side B. It's good that you always face your opponent...some Marths forget we always need to do that but doing side B sometimes can throw people off but it is generally a way for Fox to say, "lol uair/bair" because it makes you fall slower and have more lag.
Niko45
Smash Master
Alright, I don't know if anyone really knows the doc matchup well enough, but if you do please help:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bLyXtHfh6w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arR6_k8jmy4&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyRjlaseRro&feature=channel
It's just more of a struggle than it seems it should be for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bLyXtHfh6w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arR6_k8jmy4&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyRjlaseRro&feature=channel
It's just more of a struggle than it seems it should be for me.
P. O. F.
Smash Ace
Niko:
If you haven't, check out my Match up section on this...I cover Doc pretty nicely.
Kill the f throw for the most part and just u throw doc and watch what he does....similar to what we do with Sheik to either u tilt or bait the jump and start fairing. Doc from this point is really in a **** load of trouble and is bad against marth. Don't fish around for grabs too hard because you'll eat d smash to the face and die early from some dumb BS and a chain of bairs for the edge guard. Docs not too bad at edge guarding marth but we do it much easier. D tilt is your weapon of choice VS him. It really ***** him hard. Look at your first match if you don't believe me lol.
Anytime he was above you he got ***** and anytime you used d tilt he got *****.
Do you know how to fight Luigi or Mario? It's the exact same match up. lol.
If you haven't, check out my Match up section on this...I cover Doc pretty nicely.
Kill the f throw for the most part and just u throw doc and watch what he does....similar to what we do with Sheik to either u tilt or bait the jump and start fairing. Doc from this point is really in a **** load of trouble and is bad against marth. Don't fish around for grabs too hard because you'll eat d smash to the face and die early from some dumb BS and a chain of bairs for the edge guard. Docs not too bad at edge guarding marth but we do it much easier. D tilt is your weapon of choice VS him. It really ***** him hard. Look at your first match if you don't believe me lol.
Anytime he was above you he got ***** and anytime you used d tilt he got *****.
Do you know how to fight Luigi or Mario? It's the exact same match up. lol.
Niko45
Smash Master
Most of the time I find myself dtilting the ledge in vain as he sweetspots. He can also tech that easily if he ****s it up. Idk I'm totally lost on the edgeguard. Maybe lightshield edgehog the pill?
Ur definitely right about up throw tho.
Ur definitely right about up throw tho.
otg
Smash Master
POF you are in no position to be giving niko advice about the Doc matchup.
P. O. F.
Smash Ace
It's a lot safer than doing fsmash because it is much easier to time and you have less ending lag of course. If you don't sweet spot it though he's probably going to make it back up. (like most characters) If that happens space yourself from the ledge and just wait on stage for what he does and react. Remember that once doc goes out pretty low...hes screwed. He's not like Falco from the ledge where he can jump up instantly and frustrate w laser spam so...just wait it out. If Doc pills you from the ledge while getting up i think fsmash goes through that. lol.
I just use spacers (f tilt, d tilt, nair to cover rolls, retreating fair) in this match up and am careful with my grabs because Docs inside game is pretty good.
You're in no position to think you know anything about Marth.
Stop trolling my thread and get out.