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Eldiran's PSAs 'n' Stuff: Newest - Zero 1.4

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Kitamerby

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Wisp is currently my favorite character, but I have a few qualms that might help with its viability. Most of them involve ways to help wisp overcome its kill problems while still keeping it as a uniquely fresh and fun character. =D
(Also, I think this character will probably work best in Brawl+, and I've only used it in B+ so far, so I guess these are based off of my experiences with it in B+. <<)

Firstly, I think fair has too much cooldown. At first, Wisp seems like a great Wall of Pain character, but when you actually try it, fair won't let you pull it off because you fall too far before your next one and they have time to recover. I think it'd be better if you made it with less cooldown so you could act sooner and possibly chain them, which would definitely be a huge help to it. It doesn't need THAT much of a speed buff, probably just a few frames to allow it to stay level/ascend slowly with fairs like Jigglypuff. Giving it a real wop would definitely make it viable. Honestly, when I first tried Wisp, I thought it was going to be a wop character instead of a character who runs away, but it turns out it's only slightly off, which means Wisp has a very thin offense and followup game after landing that fair. WoP's are fun, as well as few and far apart, so we should give Wisp one to keep with its aerial superiority. Since Wisp's approach game is fairly bad as Ampharos said, it should at least have a great reward for landing that short fair.

Thirdly, I think Dsmash and/or Up B both require more wind and possibly reflector status to aide their use. It'd be pretty unique and possibly improve both of their viability. You might also want to pump up Up B's wind box way up to the max or something so that it can actually push away people in the air/offstage, allowing an up B edgeguard to become kinda possible, and allowing it to repel foes who attempt to approach via the air instead of having it so anyone could just jump through. Perhaps you could manipulate the wind boxes to only affect aerial opponents instead of only affecting ground ones? This way it'd be sort of balanced as you could approach grounded easily, but you can't use aerial approaches (or projectiles if you like the reflector idea). Doing this makes more sense, and adds a unique and fun way to shut down aerial-based approaches and many recoveries.

Also for lulz you could put a sweetspot somewhere near the tornado's inner walls that rockets them straight up if you feel like being corny, but that probably won't fly if he's going to be a serious character. :<

I think it would also help to buff the throws by giving uthrow possibly less base knockback for combos, swapping out bthrow's trajectory with fthrow or dthrow (I mean give fthrow or dthrow what bthrow's trajectory was supposed to be, because both are pretty bad as they are now), and make Bthrow kill at like 130 or 140, giving a viable use to a really cool looking move and making landing that unique grab worthwhile, as well as helping with Wisp's kill problems, because Wisp's Bthrow's animation is just so awesome that it should have a good use, while keeping with its wacky grab silliness. Thenagain, a killing throw might be too good if the character already has a wop, so otherwise maybe the throw could instead send at a very low angle but with medium knockback to promote edgeguarding,

DownB with a stored charge mechanic + closer = more power probably is the best idea to buff it.

Ftilt might also be very fun with a bit less cool down, allowing you to start comboing someone in front of you backwards, which is a very unique twist.

If the dsmash wind/tornado reflector doesn't fly, you might also be able to get away with messing with an aerial down B to allow a reflector of some sort. maybe you could use an aura sphere animation to appear like a shield while you use it. It might even work as an absorber. I might be thinking too much about this, but I just think that Wisp is a character who feels like she should be able to easily sap away any advantages that one gets from other energy-based stuff and fire, being an energy entity.

In short, I personally think wisp should have a WoP with fairs, a killing bthrow, an aerial-stopping tornado, some sort of reflector/absorber, and a ftilt that has less cooldown to allow chaining into bairs/reverse fairs.

If only one idea gets accepted, I really think it should be the wall of pain fair. Wisp is a character with average to below average range, the lightest character, has absolutely no way to shake off pressure, and has multiple horrid moves with extremely situational use, combined with horrible potential to outright kill people. If you give it a wall of pain and promote it becoming a wonderful aerial fighter by focusing on various setups and tools to channel its fantastic affinity towards offstage harrassment, then it suddenly becomes a wonderfully balanced character who is not only viable, but incredibly fun and unique, as well.

On a side note, you're amazing for making this very fun (casual? maybe not for long?) character.
 

CRASHiC

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Uh-oh. I can totally fix that but I need more info. Are you playing vBrawl, BBrawl, or Brawl+? Does he just always get hit, or is it an infinite? And who can do this to him? Thanks!
Everything.

He lands right next to the opponent, putting them in room for every attack, and he can instantly be grabbed again. Fix those two things please.

As for who, I don't know, DDD can. We have some frame rate data on grab releases, if you check that I'm sure you can fix it.
 

Eldiran

Smash Lord
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Everything.

He lands right next to the opponent, putting them in room for every attack, and he can instantly be grabbed again. Fix those two things please.

As for who, I don't know, DDD can. We have some frame rate data on grab releases, if you check that I'm sure you can fix it.
Hm! He does land right next to the opponent -- barely even moves. For some reason though, I can't do it with DDD. The computer Wisp usually has time to roll-dodge behind me when I try.

Are you sure it's a lock?

Thanks for bringing this up though.

Wisp is currently my favorite character, but I have a few qualms that might help with its viability. Most of them involve ways to help wisp overcome its kill problems while still keeping it as a uniquely fresh and fun character. =D
(Also, I think this character will probably work best in Brawl+, and I've only used it in B+ so far, so I guess these are based off of my experiences with it in B+. <<)

...
Thank you for the in-depth analysis! I love posts like these. I'm glad to hear Wisp is perfomring alright in B+ (well, about as alright as in normal Brawl). I hear you on the Fair matter -- that move needs a bit of improvement, and I plan to give it some. I'm thinking hitbox changes should mostly do the trick, but I may also cut off a frame or two at the end of the move. I'm not sure how much B+ affects how fair works for you, but I'm taking your opinion into account nonetheless.

Dsmash with a reflect is an interesting idea. It may be more of a novelty, like Ness' bat (unless that's often used. I'm not sure) but it certainly bears some thought.

I am very wary about any improvements to Up+B's wind, if only because it can really screw some characters over. Something about it definitely needs to change though.

I'm glad to hear someone besides me likes the Bthrow :D I'll consider giving it more knockback. I haven't decided on an overall plan for the throws yet though. I'm not wholly convinced they are too bad.

DownB I still ruminating on the idea I posited earlier. Just as I am wondering about the fate of ftilt.

Speaking about using Up+B to halt aerial approaches... I am wondering if I ought to make the area close to the Tornado cause the foe to rise. Perhaps that would be an adequate deterrent. Coupled with weakening the rest of the wind so as not to screw the Mother boys over so much, as well as possibly eliminate the trapping of enemies under stage hazards, this might be an idea. But still thinkin' about it.

I do hope to make Wisp excellent at offstage harassment. Aerial mobility, up+B and down smash were my attempts at that. Few more changes and it should work out!

Thanks very much for the feedback!
 

Crolensus

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 2, 2008
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8
Lol wisp is amazingly fun to play, however grabbing is hard since you can't tell which direction your facing, and wisp froze after I used the B special 3 times in a row, he wouldn't move till he got koed.

Still, great job :)
 

Darkurai

Smash Master
Joined
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How exactly do I use Wisp? I can't figure out where I'm supposed to put the file. No one in any thread seems to actually say that.
 

Kitamerby

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Thank you for the in-depth analysis! I love posts like these. I'm glad to hear Wisp is perfomring alright in B+ (well, about as alright as in normal Brawl). I hear you on the Fair matter -- that move needs a bit of improvement, and I plan to give it some. I'm thinking hitbox changes should mostly do the trick, but I may also cut off a frame or two at the end of the move. I'm not sure how much B+ affects how fair works for you, but I'm taking your opinion into account nonetheless.
I don't think that's necessary, really. In Brawl+, fair is just a few frames shy of comboing into itself. The hitboxes aren't really that much of a problem considering how powerful an air combo/wop can be...

I am very wary about any improvements to Up+B's wind, if only because it can really screw some characters over. Something about it definitely needs to change though.
I think I've noticed the problem. You're too concerned about balance in a game that will most likely not even be using the character competitively. (most likely, not impossible). You should work on making the character fun and innovative for now and work on balance after people have tried it out and can say "It's too broken. Nerf it."

I'm glad to hear someone besides me likes the Bthrow :D I'll consider giving it more knockback. I haven't decided on an overall plan for the throws yet though. I'm not wholly convinced they are too bad.
It's not that they're bad, but they sorta lack use. Bthrow sorta puts people in a good position to followup, but uthrow is slightly too high to combo into a usmash on most characters (or anything else it seems), and neither dthrow nor fthrow really make any super favorable conditions, other than maybe dthrow putting them above you.

DownB I still ruminating on the idea I posited earlier. Just as I am wondering about the fate of ftilt.
For showing downB's charge, do you know if it's possible to access DK's head-steam animation? If you could put that on for the downB fully charge, that should work nicely.

Speaking about using Up+B to halt aerial approaches... I am wondering if I ought to make the area close to the Tornado cause the foe to rise. Perhaps that would be an adequate deterrent. Coupled with weakening the rest of the wind so as not to screw the Mother boys over so much, as well as possibly eliminate the trapping of enemies under stage hazards, this might be an idea. But still thinkin' about it.
But if you do that, it can't work as an edgeguard/ offstage harrassment. What if on startup, a massive wind burst is instead generated on or near the tornado capable of blowing someone offstage (into gimp territory, but not enough for an outright KO), and is repeated at regular intervals, like say every 3-4 seconds, and in between the "powerful gusts" a much much weaker gust is blowing out? This would allow it to be a good edgeguard tool, but would force the user to have either good timing, or alot of prep time as well as being able to predict the opponent's recovery strategy?
 

D.B.K.

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Mar 3, 2009
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NNID
tinyfuses
Rename the file FitPurin and put it in x/private/wii/APP/RSBE/pf/fighter/purin.
 

Darkurai

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Aug 20, 2007
Messages
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Just played with Wisp. Here are some impressions I had.

Luigi the Sith (8:32:28 PM): Currently testing how bad the AI is when controlling Wisp
Luigi the Sith (8:32:57 PM): AI is doing very poorly. This was predicted early on, as the AI is designed specifically for Jigglypuff.
Chriso9300 (8:33:03 PM): Yeah.
Luigi the Sith (8:33:33 PM): Playstyle: Wisp takes a lot of getting used to., especially since you can't actually see its hitboxes.
Luigi the Sith (8:33:51 PM): Wisp is very slow on the ground, but quick in the air.
Luigi the Sith (8:34:11 PM): Its nuetral B appears to freeze when it's in "Shadow mode".
Luigi the Sith (8:34:36 PM): Wisp can't hold items; it tosses them into the air and they fall back down as though thrown.,
Luigi the Sith (8:34:46 PM): This leads to an interesting glitch with the hammer.
Luigi the Sith (8:35:09 PM): Two Wisps fighting each other is the most confusing thing in the world.
Chriso9300 (8:35:27 PM): Why's that?
Luigi the Sith (8:35:44 PM): Because it's hard to keep track of them given they have no defined body.
Luigi the Sith (8:36:23 PM): A water Wisp just grabbed a Smash Ball and the game froze. Cause unknown, as earlier in the match Wisp successfully used its final smash.
 

FrozenHobo

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That doesn't even begin to answer my question.

In fact, did you even read my question?
did you even understand your question? what character: jigglypuff. you put it in the folder the affects jigglypuff. its really not complicated, and i don't appreciate you being a **** about it just because you can't figure out what everyone else can.
 

Eldiran

Smash Lord
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Just played with Wisp. Here are some impressions I had.
Dang, that's a bummer you had so many crashes. Thankfully, I believe I've caught the problem that causes the crashes, and it should be fixed in the next iteration. (I can't be sure because I've never been able to crash it with Wisp myself...)

I think I've noticed the problem. You're too concerned about balance in a game that will most likely not even be using the character competitively. (most likely, not impossible). You should work on making the character fun and innovative for now and work on balance after people have tried it out and can say "It's too broken. Nerf it."
It's true I'll lack originality if I always let balance get in the way. Like letting Wisp have 9 jumps :p But I enjoy the mental puzzle of trying make things balanced. It's good practice for if I ever actually make a game.

It's not that they're bad, but they sorta lack use. Bthrow sorta puts people in a good position to followup, but uthrow is slightly too high to combo into a usmash on most characters (or anything else it seems), and neither dthrow nor fthrow really make any super favorable conditions, other than maybe dthrow putting them above you.
True. I might try to give a little more utility to his throws. Otherwise he'll have multiple Marth Bthrows :p

For showing downB's charge, do you know if it's possible to access DK's head-steam animation? If you could put that on for the downB fully charge, that should work nicely.
Unfortunately I have no access to character-specific graphics. Either way, I think that would too easily get lost amid the sparking charge from Side B, Wisp itself, and from the background.

But if you do that, it can't work as an edgeguard/ offstage harrassment. What if on startup, a massive wind burst is instead generated on or near the tornado capable of blowing someone offstage (into gimp territory, but not enough for an outright KO), and is repeated at regular intervals, like say every 3-4 seconds, and in between the "powerful gusts" a much much weaker gust is blowing out? This would allow it to be a good edgeguard tool, but would force the user to have either good timing, or alot of prep time as well as being able to predict the opponent's recovery strategy?
I'm still trying to think of the best thing for Up B, so nothing is settled on. I'm definitely considering spreading the gusts out though.
 

Darkurai

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did you even understand your question? what character: jigglypuff. you put it in the folder the affects jigglypuff. its really not complicated, and i don't appreciate you being a **** about it just because you can't figure out what everyone else can.
I never asked what character.
 

just2good

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 29, 2009
Messages
71
very nice job on this character! but I always hated wisps in mabinogi, they hurt a lot.

Also its too bad school already started, I probably wont have much time to work on any characters.
 

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
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OH MY GOD.


FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF YOU TSUNAMI

FFFFFFFFFFFFF YOU. DO PEOPLE EVEN ****ING LISTEN AND READ THE THREAD

YOU PUT IT IN

private/wii/APP/RSBE/pf/fighter/Purin/ and name it FitPurin.pac


in the codes folder on the root of your sd card, you have to have an RSBE01.gct that has the latest file replacement code on it.

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
 

Fino

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nxt to Dphat wit all dem azn biches
Wisp is so **** good... love it!

I want frame data and all that other bs... even though I can't even tell which direction I'm facing.

Such a unique character. Also, wisp has a grab release on a few characters ^^;

EDIT: I forgot to mention.. kirby's copy ability still does rollout, lol. Nothing you can do about that though

~Fino
 

Rapax

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Hmm, ok. So i just saw the videos until yet. But it seems to me (and i may lay wrong) that it has big problems defeating opponents...

If even a CPU TLink dies at 150%, what will it do against a human heavy-weight? o_O

Like i said, i may be wrong, it just seems so...
 

Plasmakirby1

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why do you care?
we need moar forms, such as a star form, to insert into our copy of wisp. there are many moar effects that could be used as a new form for wisp.

great character. i hate the weak knockback and slow run, so i'll edit the run and get used to the knockback.
 

Fino

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nxt to Dphat wit all dem azn biches
Hmm, ok. So i just saw the videos until yet. But it seems to me (and i may lay wrong) that it has big problems defeating opponents...

If even a CPU TLink dies at 150%, what will it do against a human heavy-weight? o_O

Like i said, i may be wrong, it just seems so...
It's side B is a great kill move. It's got good range, the only draw back is the way you charge it. But brawls bad dash dance actually helps wisp in this game. You can charge your side b when you knock your opponent back (it doesn't even look like you're moving lol).

EDIT: Just killed a bowser at 115% with fully charged sideB... so wisp has one kil move ;D
great character. i hate the weak knockback and slow run, so i'll edit the run and get used to the knockback.
Wasn't the character supposed to be balanced though? Also, it flys through the air well, I think the creator wanted wisp to be an aerial character by the drastic mobility change from ground to air.


~Fino
 

SuSa

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This character is greatly balanced IMO.

I was playing some friendlies yesterday. Wisp has a hard time killing, and can be killed quite easily (once damage is racked on)

I couldn't figure out the side-B stuff, and I totally forgot down-B existed (Sheik main. I never use down-B as is. :p) so I didn't get to test level 3 side-B or down-B.

From my experiences, down smash is 100% COMPLETELY useless. :| In every way, shape, and form.... I tried giving it some shots, and sometimes it wouldn't even push my opponent far enough away to save me from an attack, or I'd get punished....

Up-B is actually pretty balanced, and doesn't horribly ruin anyone (from my experiences. I didn't play a Ness/Lucas)

B is great, although a tad fast IMO. It can also gimp due to how it stops your momentum.... :x I'm thinking of maybe giving it even less knockback? Either that, or slow it down a bit.....

The aerials are outstanding, but I could never find a use for nair. Whenever I could nair, I could've simply done another aerial. I'm thinking of maybe making the hitbox slightly larger? (I could never really get close enough to hit with it either...)

All in all... great character. :o
 

mofo_

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wow if you could make more forms that would be so cool! i hear you can have 8 taunts for facing different directions. Perhaps Electricity form, Sparkly/Star , Coin or Flower form lol!
 

Adapt

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I thought you could access the alloys through the custom character select screen
also giga bowser or something

Ignore my previous post if I am wrong

Well I have been fiddling around with alloys.

You can use alloys separately from any other character. but there is a big problem

They refuse to acknowledge shield, or b button inputs. I thought that maybe they would actually recognize them if you put actually put something in the action/subaction... but alas... it is not so...

So unless I am missing something major... we will never be able to get alloys working.. :(

So long story short... you wouldn't be able to port Wisp to the green alloy



PS: barring the fact that they cannot shield, dodge, pickup items, snap to ledges or use specials... they seem to be fairly good characters. I can beat level 9 computers with them. I'm toying with a lagless blue alloy to see if she can be competitive
 

Kink-Link5

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Wisp is actually pretty bad lol. Side B definitely does NOT infinite in B+, I have gone into the slowest speed and a computer WILL shield after only a few uses. The only characters she seems good against at the moment are Fox, Falcon, and other fast fallers, along with any character that has even less range than her (Which as far as I can tell is only sonic lol), and Kirby for some bizare reason.

Samus and Link absolutely WRECK her, and so does like almost every character heavier than Ness. And good luck getting "gimp kills" when she can't even get the opponent off the stage.

She is pretty much an excellent example of having random counterpicks across good and bad characters.
 

Plasmakirby1

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why do you care?
wow if you could make more forms that would be so cool! i hear you can have 8 taunts for facing different directions. Perhaps Electricity form, Sparkly/Star , Coin or Flower form lol!
sorry, but the way the "form Change" works, you can only have 4 forms. here are forms i have made




 

Eldiran

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Some of those are pretty freakin' sweet Plasmakirby. I'm glad it's easy to edit.

Wisp is so **** good... love it!

I want frame data and all that other bs... even though I can't even tell which direction I'm facing.

Such a unique character. Also, wisp has a grab release on a few characters ^^;

EDIT: I forgot to mention.. kirby's copy ability still does rollout, lol. Nothing you can do about that though

~Fino
Yep, if I could turn Kirby into a Wisp I would :p But I fixed the grab release issue. Still not sure if other characters can do the same to Wisp though.

Thanks!

Wisp is actually pretty bad lol. Side B definitely does NOT infinite in B+, I have gone into the slowest speed and a computer WILL shield after only a few uses. The only characters she seems good against at the moment are Fox, Falcon, and other fast fallers, along with any character that has even less range than her (Which as far as I can tell is only sonic lol), and Kirby for some bizare reason.

...

She is pretty much an excellent example of having random counterpicks across good and bad characters.
Yep, Wisp is bad. I plan to make her mediocre, and maybe tone down the excellent counterpicks if I can.

This character is greatly balanced IMO.

I was playing some friendlies yesterday. Wisp has a hard time killing, and can be killed quite easily (once damage is racked on)

...

All in all... great character. :o
Thanks! I'm working on making Dsmash a little better. I plan also to tweak Up+B, but it will still be useful. I know what you're saying about B and Nair -- it just occurred to me that B is just as quick to start, and quicker to recover, than Nair. So, I'm increasing Nair's hitbox a tad and slowing down B's recovery a tad.

Thanks again for all the comments guys!
 

Elwood

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There.
First, I'll say this: you've done an excellent job. Wisp's concept is awesome, and I've had a blast playing as her.

However, I've been noticing the freezing issue a lot - where Wisp will just not respond until she's hit. I've noticed that it tends to happen mostly around when I try to use the Across B second charge and when I get a Final Smash in the air - when I land, I can't do anything, even if I've already used the Final Smash. This doesn't happen all the time, so I can't reliably replicate it, but I figure any information is good, right?
 

Plasmakirby1

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why do you care?
i like the last 2 form plasma :D how can i make it replace darkness and ice?
either have eldiran tell you, or wait until KC:MM forums are back up. the forums reached its cpu limit, and it had the info on how to edit the forms. once you find the right section in sub actions, just replace the graphics with new graphics. i just don't know where that section is :p
 
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