Eldiran's PSAs 'n' Stuff: Newest - Zero 1.4

[Adapt]

One last thing I noticed... I don't think a forward roll reverses the direction of Wisp

at least not all the time

 

[Eldiran]

Comments in Orange... with some updates due to me playing for another hour or so.

This should work for having both options of side-B:

Assuming the baby one comes out in 4 frames:

Async timer: 4 frames
if(condition: button pressed: B)
goto: large attack subaction
else
goto: small attack subaction

in the small attack subaction have the hitboxes come out immediately

Thanks for the comments: are you sure you haven't found use for Dsmash as a "get away from me" move? I know I have.

Also, I'm not sure what BTT means.

I'll definitely work on the bair. (The fair ought to be fine -- is it giving you trouble?)

As for the code, that is very interesting. I shall have to experiment with that.

Change the hitbox type to Special Offensive Collision. This makes it so hits cannot be reversable.

To make the hitbox actually work, in Undefined parameter 2, c/p 004FFFC3 in.

Magus is so amazing at finding these things. o_O

Wow, sweet! Uh, does this mean I should set all the offsets to be negative (if I want a fair and bair that are identical)? Or does it just stop the hitboxes from going wonky?

...well, I'll figure it out eventually.

Uncharged side-b can jab lock, fully charged launch angle feels weird imo should be more like 45-60 degrees
Pivot-grab has insane range

Also, I think the back throw should throw them, you know, back...

The guy who made mewtwo got the tag to stay while air-dodging, maybe that could help with the shield/tag invisibility problems

Hmmm, you sure? I've had computers roll-dodge out of a constant stream of 'em before. Maybe I'm just a bad button masher.

The fully charged side B actually goes at different angles depending on where you hit them with it.

Pivot grab is identical to the normal grab. It's just incredibly useful for Wisp because Wisp can't grab things nearby.

The back-throw is weird like that to lessen the potency of Wisp's impressive grab range. Less versatility for him and all that.

The disappearing tag is actually intentional. It's supposed to aid Wisp in evading.

 

[Fool's Gil]

Wisp has joined the Brawl!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr-q3nEebiE

Not a match, a machinima short. My way of a formal introduction for Wisp.

 

[BrianYDG]

There's two errors with Wisp.
First with the side b in Brawl+. I seriously could not get out of it when I was being bombarded by it.
And when using up B against Mewtwo, it allows Mewtwo to keep using his Up B over and over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBPhMMlfz4E

Edit:
Mewtwo part is around 5:35

Also, this is quite amazing work btw.

 

[CRASHiC]

Given your vast limitations, this is quite simply amazingly original. I applaud your efforts.

 

[DarkDragoon]

There's two errors with Wisp.
First with the side b in Brawl+. I seriously could not get out of it when I was being bombarded by it.
And when using up B against Mewtwo, it allows Mewtwo to keep using his Up B over and over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBPhMMlfz4E

Edit:
Mewtwo part is around 5:35

Also, this is quite amazing work btw.

o.o Yea, I posted my ideas on that issue in your video comments.
-DD

 

[Eldiran]

Wisp has joined the Brawl!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr-q3nEebiE

Not a match, a machinima short. My way of a formal introduction for Wisp.

Pfgfhahah

That's pretty amazing. Too bad Wisp is actually kinda weak Very nice video. I approve.

There's two errors with Wisp.
First with the side b in Brawl+. I seriously could not get out of it when I was being bombarded by it.
And when using up B against Mewtwo, it allows Mewtwo to keep using his Up B over and over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBPhMMlfz4E

Edit:
Mewtwo part is around 5:35

Also, this is quite amazing work btw.

Is there no way to DI in Brawl+? The DI multiplier for the side B hitboxes are x1. The tip of it is even x1.2.

But regardless. I see why people are saying it's a jab lock. It must only be the case in B+. When I finish bug fixes to it, I'll make a Brawl+ version that has more lag on the Side B. That'd be the only change though.

That Up B thing is weird. It's not part of Wisp though -- I bet the same thing happens with Toon Link's dair and Ness' Down B.

Thanks for the compliments and enthusiasm guys!

 

[cAm8ooo]

If you do edit for brawl+ i have a suggestion. Side b needs a larger charge time. With dash dancing it literally takes like 3 seconds to charge it up.

 

[Kink-Link5]

B-throw is the greatest mindgame throw ever.

 

[DarkDragoon]

Is there no way to DI in Brawl+? The DI multiplier for the side B hitboxes are x1. The tip of it is even x1.2.

Its not that, its that the global hitstun modifier has been bumped up a notch or two, so what may seem balanced in Brawl may need a little tweaking in Brawl+.
-DD

 

[SuSa]

I went and replaced Jigglypuff with Wisp.

Fantastic job, I love it. :3

 

[Crolensus]

For some reason Wisp makes my game freeze whenever I try to load a fight

Why?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I decided to mess around with Wisp a bit, and here's what I noticed...

Wisp has terrible hitboxes on most of its moves, and it's very hard to hit with anything. You don't really notice it until you're actually fighting something, but you have to be really precise to hit with most of Wisp's stuff. That makes Wisp do way better against someone big like Bowser instead of someone small like Olimar.

Wisp's grab is not good. It can't shieldgrab or really use its grab to protect itself. It seems to just plain not have a pivot grab. When you actually do a pivot grab, no graphic effect happens and it seems like there's no grab to be done. I think it's just doing Jigglypuff's pivot grab with no grab hitbox. Given that the throws are fairly poor as well, Wisp is left with a pretty bad grab game all around.

Wisp's dominant strategy seems to be run-away. Its small hitboxes are pretty bad for approaching, and its non-existant shield game makes it bad on defense. It is pretty mobile though (especially factoring in smart use of dair, which is a fairly mediocre attack but an excellent mobility option), and its ridiculously good side-B rewards running away even more. This is extremely polarizing in terms of both stage and matchup. Wisp basically will never lose on Norfair, and it's pretty ridiculous on Delfino Plaza and Halberd since it just spends the whole match playing under the stage games. On the other hand, Wisp is really awful on Final Destination where it really can't run (except by going under it I guess). Wisp has no real way to fight Olimar at all as far as I can tell; Olimar just camps, and I don't think it has an approach (and yes, Olimar uair beats Wisp dair cleanly). If Wisp were a part of standard Brawl, I would expect it to mostly be confined to counterpicking... where it would probably be pretty ridiculous.

Wisp's best smash is easily usmash, and its best attacking aerial is uair. It really, really depends on getting opponents above it if it wants to take the offense, but it seems to have no way to do that.

For some reason, grabbing the ledge as Wisp seems hard.

I was able to "t-pose" Wisp once, but I'm not sure how I did it and wasn't able to repeat it.

I'm pretty sure dsmash and down-B aren't good at all. Up-B seems pretty bad as well except probably to refresh stale moves and against select recoveries.

In general, you can't "feel" what you are doing with Wisp, making everything pretty awkward.

Fun item observations. Gooey Bombs are invisible when stuck to Wisp but behave normally. It is invisible when frozen, including the ice. Likewise when grounded by a Pitfall. It seems to mostly render in front of the smoke from a Smoke Ball, and the ball itself is invisible when stuck to it. Actually, all transformation items are invisible when attached to it though they are still functional. Its Final Smash is terrible; it doesn't kill. The immunity to being pushed on the ground has some funny interactions with Piplup and Kyogre.

If you want to make Wisp a better character design wise, here are my suggestions.

-More base knockback and less knockback growth on several moves. Nair really stands out as just being off in this regard, but usmash could use a bit of tweaking like this as well.
-You need to raise the angle on some of Wisp's moves; the character really wants people above it, but it has no way to do that. If dtilt hit at a typical angle (169h), it would be much better for Wisp, as an example of a possibility.
-I know it's "this character isn't finished" bugginess, but the shield being generally visible (like it is when Wisp is hit) and having an off-screen bubble (not to mention a pivot grab) are pretty important.
-I'd just rethink the grab. I'm quite convinced it isn't good; it goes out far ahead, but it doesn't cover the most important area a grab needs to cover.
-In general, Wisp needs wider hit areas on a lot of moves. It's just too hard to hit with almost everything; it's like half of your moveset is Captain Falcon's sweetspot knee.
-I don't know what, but Wisp needs to reward run-away tactics less. I mean, Norfair is just a free win for it if it ever has a lead...

These are just my casual observations based on training mode and explorative play with the AI; don't take this post as anything more. You did succeed in making a character who is very unique and not obviously broken (like all the other PSA characters), but I don't think I'd really want to play a serious game with this character as it stands now.

 

[GHNeko]

Didnt think I'd ever see a WoT post about a PSA character's metagame. <_>

Wisp is mad famous lmao.

 

[Adapt]

I agree with everything that AA said (and have already said most of it), except for the bit about the pivot grab

Wisp's pivot grab>=regular grab.

since a lot of your game consist of running away, you can actually get quite a few grabs by running away and then doing an auto-pivot grab out of the dash. You just have to time it correctly.

Obviously this doesn't work against aerial approaches... but with proper spacing you can get people while they are vulnerable landing

 

[smashmaniac2008]

BEST ****ING CHARACTER EVER!!! 10/10 dude 10/10.

 

[M.K]

I'd like it if his Up-B did something to characters within the tornado, maybe something like making them rise up the tornado column?
Right now, his Down-Smash is useless, F-Smash has terrifyingly bad range, and UpSmash is awesome, but so situational (UpThrow --> UpSmash).
Otherwise, I love it. Great replacement to JPuff!

 

[D.B.K.]

Eh, the only use I have for DSmash is edge guarding against the space animals.

 

[Bladewing]

i gotta tell ya, i was playing around with this guy and I am really impressed.

 

[MaxThunder]

... i cant seem to switch between his(is it a he) fire and ice form at will... someimtes when i side taunt i get the ice... sometimes i get the fire... why?

 

[Fuhreak]

When you time it right (or wrong really) going from B or side B to a ground dodge will T stance.

Guy above: Facing Left = Ice, Facing Right = Fire

Edit: Oh right I forgot, mushroom stacks with Final Smash, makes it huge.

 

[MaxThunder]

aha............... now i get it...

 

[.Smoreking.]

Do the different forms actually do anything, or are they for show? I can't seem to find any differences in forms

 

[Fuhreak]

Do the different forms actually do anything, or are they for show? I can't seem to find any differences in forms

Protip: Read the first page, no they don't.

Edit: When you use your FS on a moving platform, wisp moves with it, the FS effects stay behind.

 

[smashmaniac2008]

you should have each form have different moves.

 

[Eldiran]

Thanks for the feedback guys!

For some reason Wisp makes my game freeze whenever I try to load a fight

Why?

I don't know
Does it not crash when you don't have Wisp?

I decided to mess around with Wisp a bit, and here's what I noticed...

Wisp has terrible hitboxes on most of its moves, and it's very hard to hit with anything. You don't really notice it until you're actually fighting something, but you have to be really precise to hit with most of Wisp's stuff. That makes Wisp do way better against someone big like Bowser instead of someone small like Olimar.

Ah! Thank you very, very much for the in-depth review. I really appreciate it, especially since I know firsthand you're good at balancing things.

I did notice Wisp fares (and fairs ) much better against the larger characters. I am definitely considering expanding some hitboxes right now, particularly nair, fair and bair. And possibly the top of USmash, along with the charge animation of Dsmash.

Wisp's grab is not good. It can't shieldgrab or really use its grab to protect itself. It seems to just plain not have a pivot grab. When you actually do a pivot grab, no graphic effect happens and it seems like there's no grab to be done. I think it's just doing Jigglypuff's pivot grab with no grab hitbox. Given that the throws are fairly poor as well, Wisp is left with a pretty bad grab game all around.

I'm not sure what you mean about Pivot Grab... when you do a pivot grab, I literally have it change action to a normal grab. It's exactly the same. (Or it should be). I'll make it a Goto just to be sure it works.

I understand the range on it really doesn't make up for the lack of shieldgrab. Although I think I'd rather keep the grab ranged like that to make Wisp unique. I could improve some of its throws though.

Wisp's dominant strategy seems to be run-away. Its small hitboxes are pretty bad for approaching, and its non-existant shield game makes it bad on defense. It is pretty mobile though (especially factoring in smart use of dair, which is a fairly mediocre attack but an excellent mobility option), and its ridiculously good side-B rewards running away even more. This is extremely polarizing in terms of both stage and matchup. Wisp basically will never lose on Norfair, and it's pretty ridiculous on Delfino Plaza and Halberd since it just spends the whole match playing under the stage games. On the other hand, Wisp is really awful on Final Destination where it really can't run (except by going under it I guess). Wisp has no real way to fight Olimar at all as far as I can tell; Olimar just camps, and I don't think it has an approach (and yes, Olimar uair beats Wisp dair cleanly). If Wisp were a part of standard Brawl, I would expect it to mostly be confined to counterpicking... where it would probably be pretty ridiculous.

As for Wisp focusing on running away, that makes perfect sense after I gave her the moves she has. I can imagine how it might be a very polarizing character... I'd like to change that. Do you have any suggestions how I might make Wisp less ridiculous at counterpicking? I suppose I could lessen the number of jumps, but I'm hesitant to do so. (Uniqueness and all that.)

Wisp's best smash is easily usmash, and its best attacking aerial is uair. It really, really depends on getting opponents above it if it wants to take the offense, but it seems to have no way to do that.

Funny how these things always work out. When I made Usmash I thought it'd be one of Wisp's worse moves.

For some reason, grabbing the ledge as Wisp seems hard.

I was able to "t-pose" Wisp once, but I'm not sure how I did it and wasn't able to repeat it.

That's probably Wisp being all wispy. I do also find myself having to be really careful recovering or risk going past the ledge.

The t-pose issues should be fixed in the next release. (I was hoping not to need 'next release's but bug fixes demand it. May as well rebalance too.)

I'm pretty sure dsmash and down-B aren't good at all. Up-B seems pretty bad as well except probably to refresh stale moves and against select recoveries.

I guess I'm the only one who ever uses it to get people away from me quickly. Maybe I've just been using it instead of a better attack, I'm not sure. Up+B should be very situational, or it would easily cross the line to being absurdly overpowered. If you think I should move it closer to the line however, I'm taking suggestions.

In general, you can't "feel" what you are doing with Wisp, making everything pretty awkward.

This is unfortunately kind of inevitable with a graphics-based character.

Fun item observations. Gooey Bombs are invisible when stuck to Wisp but behave normally. It is invisible when frozen, including the ice. Likewise when grounded by a Pitfall. It seems to mostly render in front of the smoke from a Smoke Ball, and the ball itself is invisible when stuck to it. Actually, all transformation items are invisible when attached to it though they are still functional. Its Final Smash is terrible; it doesn't kill. The immunity to being pushed on the ground has some funny interactions with Piplup and Kyogre.

Yyyep, Wisp and items don't exactly get along well. That's why I made Wisp unable to carry things -- because otherwise the items simply wouldn't appear while being held.

The Final Smash doesn't kill, no, but if you'll notice, it does saddle you up all ready with a full Side B charge to do the job yourself.

If you want to make Wisp a better character design wise, here are my suggestions.

-More base knockback and less knockback growth on several moves. Nair really stands out as just being off in this regard, but usmash could use a bit of tweaking like this as well.
-You need to raise the angle on some of Wisp's moves; the character really wants people above it, but it has no way to do that. If dtilt hit at a typical angle (169h), it would be much better for Wisp, as an example of a possibility.
-I know it's "this character isn't finished" bugginess, but the shield being generally visible (like it is when Wisp is hit) and having an off-screen bubble (not to mention a pivot grab) are pretty important.
-I'd just rethink the grab. I'm quite convinced it isn't good; it goes out far ahead, but it doesn't cover the most important area a grab needs to cover.
-In general, Wisp needs wider hit areas on a lot of moves. It's just too hard to hit with almost everything; it's like half of your moveset is Captain Falcon's sweetspot knee.
-I don't know what, but Wisp needs to reward run-away tactics less. I mean, Norfair is just a free win for it if it ever has a lead...

-Yeah, I understand what you're talking about on the first point. I think I made some of those moves back when the values were still switched in PSA... >.<
-I am actually surprised to remember that Dtilt isn't already at 169. I believe I was being cautious and gave it a slightly worse angle. I am likely to make it 169 next version. Perhaps to give Wisp a move that puts foes above him, I could tweak f-tilt to have a higher angle. Speaking of, has ftilt been useful at all? Is the angle a good one as is?
-Unfortunately, the real shield will never be visible. Do you think I should enlarge the "fake" shield? Also, I didn't realize Wisp doesn't have an off-screen bubble. I'm not sure how to/if I can fix that.
-The grab I may want to keep in spite of its crapacity. I am thinking of giving Wisp a better out-of-shield option in return though. Perhaps a quick hitbox at the very start of up+B? It could even send them upwards. Good idea y/n?
-Hitbox areas I am definitely considering expanding, as you mentioned. Are there any moves I missed that stand out as candidates for this?
-This has me stumped too. One option is to limit Wisp's ability to do so by removing jumps. Another would be to change the charging mechanics for Side B, such as to charging whenever Wisp is hurt, but I am equally hesitant to do that (that'd kind of kill the Kirby homage, but would have important ramifications balancely as well).

One last thought I had was to think about Down B being a reflect. That would make it incredibly potent, so I'm not sure it's the way to go. I might want to leave it alone, but I posit to you (if you're still interested by this whole Wisp balancing thing) -- think that'd be a good idea?

These are just my casual observations based on training mode and explorative play with the AI; don't take this post as anything more. You did succeed in making a character who is very unique and not obviously broken (like all the other PSA characters), but I don't think I'd really want to play a serious game with this character as it stands now.

Thank you very much for your feedback, it really helps me out. I'm actually glad you find Wisp to be weak; that means I succeeded at my original goal. Now I'm aiming to remove polarizing elements and make Wisp strong enough that it's fun to play.

Whew, wall of text!

 

[-dUb-]

-Speaking of, has ftilt been useful at all? Is the angle a good one as is?
-Do you think I should enlarge the "fake" shield?
-One option is to limit Wisp's ability to do so by removing jumps

-You can chain them at low %s sometimes
-Yes
-Maybe take out 1 or 2

 

[Fuhreak]

-Increase the hitboxs of all the tilts slightly, as well as Up and Side Smash

-Change Down Smash, Up/Down B to new moves

-Give it a few less jumps

Doing that would make it pretty good in MY opinion. (MY opinion, key words.)
Other than those few things I see nothing wrong with the character, just takes pratice to get used to.

Edit: And as for the bubble when leaving the screen, I never liked those anyway. =P

 

[FrozenHobo]

i have to say, i'm very impressed with this character. its very original and looks really cool. great job.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I don't know if 9 jumps is an inherent evil; it was pretty interesting, and it's fairly character defining. What are the aerial mobility values for Wisp? A possibility might be to trade a little aerial mobility for some grounded mobility; that could have a positive effect.

If you're expanding hit areas, giving utilt a little more horizontal and downward range couldn't hurt. It literally cannot hit most opponents off the ground... The other moves you mentioned are obvious candidates as well, of course.

About pivot grabs, I think Eldiran knows what it is (though I think it's buggy), but for anyone else... A pivot grab is a totally unique action, just like a standing grab or a running grab. You do it by doing a grab out of the "turn around while dashing" animation. I see confusing uses of the term "pivot" in the smash workshop sometimes; it should really be constrained to the hardcoded "turn around" animation. When I do this with Wisp, I don't seem to get anything. It looks like it's just an animation that has no effect on my opponent, but I really can't tell what's going on well due to the nature of Wisp.

Usmash doesn't seem slow, and it's really disjointed. That's why it's good. I'm not sure what style of analysis would suggest such a move is bad unless it did 4% or something...

Is it possible you set some size parameters for Wisp to bad values? That could explain the off-screen bubble issues and minor ledgegrab issues.

I don't really know about up-B; to be honest, it seems like a pretty terrible idea for a move just because of what you're saying. I wasn't playing against Ness in my poking around; my advice for this move would be to balance it to be fair in the Ness matchup and to just accept however bad it is (not every move has to be good).

I don't know about down smash; it just seems bad. If my opponent is near me, I would usually prefer to just jump away instead of trying to hit with anything, and if I did want to hit, I'd prefer to use dtilt. Maybe this move could be good with less tweaking than I think; I didn't look at it much before I concluded that it was not worth using.

About down-B, I think this is the start of a really cool move; it's just underbalanced right now. Here's how I personally would do it...

Allow Wisp to store the charge like Samus neutral-B, and add on some amount of lag between charging and firing to make it possible to react to it if Wisp does it at totally random times (though I'd still make it decently fast so it's reasonable to hit with). Instead of just nuking the field with whatever your level of charge is, I'd have three different hit areas that grow progressively weaker with distance. At max charge, I'd have the close one (still pretty far from Wisp, like 1.25x Ike fair range) do what you already do at max charge, the medium one (most ranges) do what you already do at medium charge, and the far one (huge distances, like all of FD) do what you do at minimum charge. I'd just downgrade for medium charge and minimum charge appropriately, downgrading every hitbox a level and making the ones that would go to 0 simply not come out.

That would make it less of a run-away move (you need to be somewhat close to get the good effect) and useful IMO. Of course, that was just my own mental exercise; you can pursue any design direction you want, though I'd realize that, as implemented now, I don't see down-B ever being useful.

Did you make Jigglypuff not appear by applying the "invisible" effect or by removing every part of her model? You might try the other and see how it interacts with items and shields and such.

I didn't really use ftilt, but I wasn't ready to rule it out completely. Wisp doesn't seem to have much of a follow-up game so I wasn't seeing the usefulness of putting opponents in that position, though I could see how that would be great with most characters. I reserve my judgment of that move.

To be honest, I doubt I'd ever really be playing serious games with Wisp mostly because it's outside of the design direction of BBrawl completely, and given my role in that, I naturally am looking to play it whenever possible. Also, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it right now, but having to replace Jigglypuff is a pretty poor option... Still, messing around with it was an interesting enough exercise; as PSA is implemented now, a character like Wisp is probably the limit of its potential ("Dr. Mario" style characters aren't interesting... at all), and it's a curious thing to see how that plays out.

 

[tirkaro]

http://www.destructoid.com/fan-created-brawl-character-wisp-is-kind-of-a-badass-145300.phtml

You got featured on Destructoid :D

Playing this character right now btw, loads of fun.

 

[SuSa]

http://www.destructoid.com/fan-created-brawl-character-wisp-is-kind-of-a-badass-145300.phtml

You got featured on Destructoid :D

Playing this character right now btw, loads of fun.

Reading the comments, that place seems almost as bad as /b/

 

[FrozenHobo]

wow, those people are *****. way to not even try it out.

 

[Eldiran]

http://www.destructoid.com/fan-created-brawl-character-wisp-is-kind-of-a-badass-145300.phtml

You got featured on Destructoid :D

Playing this character right now btw, loads of fun.

Oh man! Nice. I didn't expect that.

Hehehe, some of those comments are hilarious.

Wall of text:

I don't know if 9 jumps is an inherent evil; it was pretty interesting, and it's fairly character defining. What are the aerial mobility values for Wisp? A possibility might be to trade a little aerial mobility for some grounded mobility; that could have a positive effect.

I think I may experiment with a small reduction of aerial mobility because it's set to be quite high. In the PSA Aerial Mobility is 1, with the Aerial Stopping Mobility being .05.

If you're expanding hit areas, giving utilt a little more horizontal and downward range couldn't hurt. It literally cannot hit most opponents off the ground... The other moves you mentioned are obvious candidates as well, of course.

Hmm. I'll consider that. Of course it'll never hit the really problematic foes like Olimar.

About pivot grabs

Yep, in PSA terms it's "CatchTurn". I never experienced problems with it in its older iteration, but I've made the code a little more reliable now.

Usmash doesn't seem slow, and it's really disjointed. That's why it's good. I'm not sure what style of analysis would suggest such a move is bad unless it did 4% or something...

Well, it does do less damage and knockback the further you get from Wisp. I guess I figured you'd rarely get to hit with the base.

Is it possible you set some size parameters for Wisp to bad values? That could explain the off-screen bubble issues and minor ledgegrab issues.

Unfortunately the only size parameters I can change are for graphics and hitboxes, not hurtboxes or anything else.

I don't really know about up-B; to be honest, it seems like a pretty terrible idea for a move just because of what you're saying. I wasn't playing against Ness in my poking around; my advice for this move would be to balance it to be fair in the Ness matchup and to just accept however bad it is (not every move has to be good).

True. That's why I wasn't too worried making gimmicky things like Up and Down B. I can't help but wonder now if I should make Up B cause an upward wind instead. Or perhaps have the wind less powerful with distance.

About down-B, I think this is the start of a really cool move; it's just underbalanced right now. Here's how I personally would do it...

...

That would make it less of a run-away move (you need to be somewhat close to get the good effect) and useful IMO. Of course, that was just my own mental exercise; you can pursue any design direction you want, though I'd realize that, as implemented now, I don't see down-B ever being useful.

That would certainly have it be a very interesting and useful move. I worry though about giving Wisp strong moves that are usable with any speed -- after all, it's very difficult to telegraph its movements. Your concept gave me an idea though; perhaps I could go with the gradated hitboxes while keeping it as is, so that if you hit with a level 1 Down B while the foe's right next to you they get impaled. Get far enough away from the level 1 and nothing would happen. Each level of charge would simply increase the size of these effects.

That'd have Down B give greater rewards, while keeping it from being too strong. I think your idea is better balance-wise, but I am leery of adding another stored charge ability, and I don't think I could properly show when Wisp is charged to its opponents.

Did you make Jigglypuff not appear by applying the "invisible" effect or by removing every part of her model? You might try the other and see how it interacts with items and shields and such.

Thaaat sounds like a really good idea actually. I used the Invisible effect. I remember a post mentioning how to make character models invisible somewhere, but I can't find it for the life of me. If it worked, I'd totally go with that and give Wisp back her ability to use items.

To be honest, I doubt I'd ever really be playing serious games with Wisp mostly because it's outside of the design direction of BBrawl completely, and given my role in that, I naturally am looking to play it whenever possible. Also, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it right now, but having to replace Jigglypuff is a pretty poor option... Still, messing around with it was an interesting enough exercise; as PSA is implemented now, a character like Wisp is probably the limit of its potential ("Dr. Mario" style characters aren't interesting... at all), and it's a curious thing to see how that plays out.

I understand that, given your position as someone actively trying to balance the game, Wisp will never fit in. Wisp, or any other PSA character, will likely never fit in in any such initiative. Similarly, I can't imagine Wisp would ever appear in any tournament that isn't hosted in someone's basement. But that's totally okay with me.

Thanks again for the feedback! I'll keep striving to make this thing as fun to play as and against as possible, even for balance-obsessed people like me.

EDIT: And thanks to everyone else for the feedback as well! I want as many opinions as I can get on this, so if you have anything to say about the above, feel free to tell me.

 

[Adapt]

Hey Eldiran, did you give any thought to using the green alloy as your default pac?

I know it's a little late now, but the green alloy is roughly the size of kirby, round, and has multiple jumps. That way we wouldn't have to lose Jigglypuff to play with Wisp.

From my moderate knowledge of PSA it looks to be possible, seeing as the actual animations in the moves don't matter because you made the character invisible.

 

[MaxThunder]

...as far as i know you cant just pick up an alloy and play whith it... so... unless something allowing that has been made, we still would be replacing someone...

 

[CRASHiC]

I don't know if its been discussed before, but there is a HUGE problem.

He gets ***** on grab releases.

 

[Volt7x]

Woah. I was thinking or plasma from KSS on a Brawl character earlier today.

 

[Eldiran]

Hey Eldiran, did you give any thought to using the green alloy as your default pac?

I know it's a little late now, but the green alloy is roughly the size of kirby, round, and has multiple jumps. That way we wouldn't have to lose Jigglypuff to play with Wisp.

From my moderate knowledge of PSA it looks to be possible, seeing as the actual animations in the moves don't matter because you made the character invisible.

Very intriguing idea. If I spent the time to port it to green alloy, the only cost would be different size (I think Green Alloy is bigger), and the loss of two or three Jiggly-exclusive sound effects. Also, there's what MaxThunder said.

Unfortunately, that would also take an inordinate amount of time. I don't know I'm really up for that. I'd be more likely to just rename the file to replace Green Alloy and hope it works

I don't know if its been discussed before, but there is a HUGE problem.

He gets ***** on grab releases.

Uh-oh. I can totally fix that but I need more info. Are you playing vBrawl, BBrawl, or Brawl+? Does he just always get hit, or is it an infinite? And who can do this to him? Thanks!

 

[Adapt]

...as far as i know you cant just pick up an alloy and play whith it... so... unless something allowing that has been made, we still would be replacing someone...

I thought you could access the alloys through the custom character select screen
also giga bowser or something

Ignore my previous post if I am wrong