Dont get da kid started (boss)

[Matt07]

Yea, it kinda does suck, but what can you do... .

People just realize Mario is too good so they gotta camp him anyways!

Mario 4 lyfe...

 

[Omari]

@Boss: What do you brawl for?

Spoiler

Pride or Prize?

 

[boss8]

good quest......ill get back to you...

 

[A2ZOMG]

You guys should be hyping Balanced Brawl in your areas more. Hell, I should be doing that. I mean you just change a few small things and implement a clever mechanic that prevents planking, and the game is balanced.

 

[Sleek Media]

I'm a big supporter of BB, but I just get *****ed out any time I suggest it on these boards. Whatever it takes to keep MK on top, I guess.

 

[A2ZOMG]

People are silly and need to learn to suck it up and accept that change is needed to make Brawl a better competitive game. Expecting people to follow a bunch of arbitrary rules that are meant to "nerf" Metaknight is unreasonable. Tournament standard is already a social construct that is fundamentally flawed, and people need to realize that and accept that hacking is an option.

 

[fromundaman]

Except that not everyone has a hacked wii. By making a hacked game the standard, you shrink the community.

 

[Sleek Media]

Except that you don't need a hacked wii for BBrawl. Research, bro.

 

[HeroMystic]

Doesn't stop the game itself from being a hacked/modded game.

 

[Inferno3044]

People are silly and need to learn to suck it up and accept that change is needed to make Brawl a better competitive game. Expecting people to follow a bunch of arbitrary rules that are meant to "nerf" Metaknight is unreasonable. Tournament standard is already a social construct that is fundamentally flawed, and people need to realize that and accept that hacking is an option.

I really don't think hacking is an option. Everyone should be able to have access to everything with just having the game itself and not having to download a modded version on the internet. If I never used a forum and went to a brawl tournament my character could be a lot different and I might have to use different strategies.

Its not about keeping Mk on top. It's about letting everyone have easy access to the game. Remember that everyone doesn't use a forum at first

 

[A2ZOMG]

That's BS and a HUGELY hypothetical stretch if I ever saw one. Tournaments REQUIRE the internet to get word out in the first place to the target audience. The rules of tournaments are also constructed and made available on the internet. Tournaments are NOT made more accessible to the target audience just because you don't have to go to a site to download a few files. There is no tournament player who literally does not have easy access to hacking, especially given how all the competitive hacks are built specifically to be user friendly.

Seriously, tell me how many players you know actually don't have internet access, and make it to tournaments. I probably could count them on one hand, and that's being generous. Exceedingly generous if we assume that these players somehow have a reasonably significant impact in the tournament scene. Easy access as you're explaining it is simply players being lazy.

Seriously, this is as stupidly farfetched as saying that DLC and updates to competitive fighter games are not options. The only difference is that the game company is usually making you pay for their edits. I might as well just say that Shuma-Gorath and Jill are not competitive options in MvC3 because you both have to pay for them and have internet access in order to acquire them. Where is your argument for accessibility?

 

[Sleek Media]

Accessibility? Give me a break. If accessibility was so important, we'd be playing the most common house rules, which is nothing banned, items, and five stocks.

The supposed reason we DON'T use items and such in tournaments is to maintain "balance" and keep it "skill-based". Yet we have a significantly more balanced mod that requires no hacking and maintains all the core Brawl mechanics. Suddenly balance and skill aren't important anymore!

If you wanna keep things broken, whether it's because you have a high-tier main, or don't want to have to learn anything new, or you just don't want all your years of picking every last frame of this game apart to go to waste, then just say so. Don't BS us.

 

[Inferno3044]

OK. I actually read what I said and I sound dumb. Main thing is I don't think any 3rd party modded version will ever be standard for any game. I'm not saying Bbrawl is bad and it probably is much more balanced, but just be realistic. It won't happen. Even in a more balanced game there will be a tier list and people will crowd more towards the high tiers. Before I hear this "oh they're not good because they use high tiers" crap, you should just think about it.

In a sports video game they give you all the stats of the teams and basically ranks them for you. Why would you not pick the better teams? It's like you're playing Madden and instead of picking a good team like the Patriots, you pick the Lions. I could make up tons of stupid analogies that I like to make but the point is if you are given better options, why not take them. Before anyone says "then everyone should just main MK" he isn't the best at everything. He is the best overall. Once again going with the Madden analogy: The #1 team doesn't have #1 in everything. If you want a more defense heavy team, you might wanna go with the Steelers or the Ravens. You have to find the character that suits you best and is good.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

If Bbrawl becomes standard it will just split the community in two and start another flame war.

 

[HeroMystic]

Not nessecarily. If Bbrawl becomes the standard, the worst that can happen is that we'll never get any new players just entering the community. Project: M would cause a split though, although their target audience isn't the Brawl players in particular.

The problem with making a hacked game a standard is less of a fact that it's a hacked game, and more of a fact that it is not the standard game. Despite the flaws, many people would still accept Brawl for what it is and hope for the sequel to be better. If not, they'll just go back to Melee.

There's also the added fact that modded games are made by people not developed by Nintendo which makes it far-fetched to believe a social community can make a balanced game. What happened to Brawl+ is a good example of this.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If Bbrawl becomes standard it will just split the community in two and start another flame war.

I don't see how it could get any worse. Ruleset discussion is extremely polarizing, especially since it's extremely difficult to come up with fair rules. At least for everyone playing Balanced Brawl there can be no arguments about deciding rules on abuses, because abuses have already been handled beforehand.

OK. I actually read what I said and I sound dumb. Main thing is I don't think any 3rd party modded version will ever be standard for any game. I'm not saying Bbrawl is bad and it probably is much more balanced, but just be realistic. It won't happen. Even in a more balanced game there will be a tier list and people will crowd more towards the high tiers. Before I hear this "oh they're not good because they use high tiers" crap, you should just think about it.

And most of this has nothing to do with why I think people should move to BBrawl. The reason why it should be considered is because it's a solution that requires far less disagreement over rules concerning ridiculous abuses that cannot be enforced easily or agreed to be fundamentally fair. But of course, people are too lazy. Hell people are too lazy to switch damage ratio to 1.1. That doesn't even require downloading files from the internet. It's an INGAME OPTION that has strong evidence for improving competitive play. There is practically next to no real arguments for not supporting damage ratio 1.1. Just people are lazy. I'm lazy. All of us are just stuck on one thing that we refuse to change. That's the biggest problem that the community has in general. We are extremely slow to change that which has already been socially established.

In a sports video game they give you all the stats of the teams and basically ranks them for you. Why would you not pick the better teams? It's like you're playing Madden and instead of picking a good team like the Patriots, you pick the Lions. I could make up tons of stupid analogies that I like to make but the point is if you are given better options, why not take them. Before anyone says "then everyone should just main MK" he isn't the best at everything. He is the best overall. Once again going with the Madden analogy: The #1 team doesn't have #1 in everything. If you want a more defense heavy team, you might wanna go with the Steelers or the Ravens. You have to find the character that suits you best and is good.

I agree with this completely. People who pick up BBrawl should all pick up Wolf, Falco, Peach, or Pikachu. You can probably win a serious BBrawl tournament maining anyone else except maybe...Ganon, Bowser, Lucario, Lucas, and Kirby (as of BBrawl2. BBrawl3 is coming up).

 

[HeroMystic]

The reason why it should be considered is because it's a solution that requires far less disagreement over rules concerning ridiculous abuses that cannot be enforced easily or agreed to be fundamentally fair. But of course, people are too lazy. Hell people are too lazy to switch damage ratio to 1.1. That doesn't even require downloading files from the internet. It's an INGAME OPTION that has strong evidence for improving competitive play. There is practically next to no real arguments for not supporting damage ratio 1.1.

Just people are lazy. I'm lazy. All of us are just stuck on one thing that we refuse to change. That's the biggest problem that the community has in general.

I can agree with this.

 

[fromundaman]

Except that you don't need a hacked wii for BBrawl. Research, bro.

Oops, shows how much I know about hacked versions... which in a way kind of supports my point.

The problem doesn't lie in the good players. If BBrawl became the standard, which I doubt it ever will, then you know the good players would switch over and keep playing.

However, despite what many may think, they aren't the ones that matter. The people who fill the pot, people like myself who aren't good enough to make money for whatever reason (Not competitive and attend because friends convinced them to, those who attend for social purposes, people who play casually and hear about the tournament through venue advertising, those who don't have or take the time to improve let alone learn new game mechanics, etc.), as well as anyone who's character suddenly gets worse, are the ones who are more likely to stick with the original version. Sadly, these are the people who supply the money the top players then take, and without the money, all the top players migrate to the game where they can win money.

Now the main difference with DLC is that DLC comes to you. Take for MVC3 for example, since you bring it up. I play it, and I've attended a tournament for it, but I don't actually have the time, and probably won't ever with the schedule I have, to learn to get good at the game. Hell, I've barely even looked over Shuryuken for anything other than where tournies/MVC gatherings happen. If they had developed and distributed Jill and Shuma-gorath on the forums, I wouldn't know about them. However, if every time I get on the game it reminds me that hey, there's this update out there that it'll download for me in about 5 minutes if I want to (The shadow battle thing atm, but will probably do the same for the characters when they hit), then there's a much larger chance I'm going to get it.


TL:DR version: The pot-fodder player is more likely to accept change if it comes to them than if they have to go out and get it. The reason DLC works is because the people who made it are trying really hard to get you to buy it, one of those ways being that you are excluded from the group of people who do have it (Black Ops for example won't let anyone in a party play first strike maps if any single player in said party hasn't downloaded it, which leads to peer pressure to get the DLC and join the fun everyone else is having.). BBrawl pretty much says "I'll leave this here. Come get it if you want it."

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is the Smash community we are talking about though. The Smash community is too lazy to even work on damage ratio 1.1, which has LOTS of evidence for being competitively superior.

Our community as a whole just doesn't have enough people who are willing or able to actively promote significant competitive changes.

 

[Inferno3044]

This is the Smash community we are talking about though. The Smash community is too lazy to even work on damage ratio 1.1, which has LOTS of evidence for being competitively superior.

Our community as a whole just doesn't have enough people who are willing or able to actively promote significant competitive changes.

There really isn't enough evidence yet. The step that needs to be taken by multiple people is to have tournaments with 1.1 and have it prove its balance. As you said people are too lazy. Also, I have not done my research into 1.1 damage ratio. Care to explain to me how it's more balanced and competitive?

 

[Jimmyfosho]

1.1 apparently removes infinites if i'm not mistaken

 

[A2ZOMG]

There really isn't enough evidence yet. The step that needs to be taken by multiple people is to have tournaments with 1.1 and have it prove its balance. As you said people are too lazy. Also, I have not done my research into 1.1 damage ratio. Care to explain to me how it's more balanced and competitive?

Removed infinites, more balanced KO percents (Snake gets less of a KO percent boost than Mario does for example, since killing iirc 20% earlier has a larger effect on weaker kill moves), combos for a lot of lower tiered characters happen to work better BECAUSE of the slight knockback increases (Mario and Jiggs are characters benefit obviously from this given that their combo moves in regular physic fall short of having enough hitstun for reliable combos). A lot of abusive chaingrabs/locks are less effective or nonexistent as a result of the knockback increase (King DDD's chaingrab is much less abusive especially).

Renegade did a LOT of research on 1.1.

 

[Sleek Media]

However, despite what many may think, they aren't the ones that matter. The people who fill the pot, people like myself who aren't good enough to make money for whatever reason (Not competitive and attend because friends convinced them to, those who attend for social purposes, people who play casually and hear about the tournament through venue advertising, those who don't have or take the time to improve let alone learn new game mechanics, etc.), as well as anyone who's character suddenly gets worse, are the ones who are more likely to stick with the original version. Sadly, these are the people who supply the money the top players then take, and without the money, all the top players migrate to the game where they can win money.

Have you actually tried BBrawl? It's pretty obvious you haven't. You can just jump right into it from a casual standpoint. You might notice a change here or there, but unless you've memorized a bunch of combos that rely on abusing vBrawl, you're not going to be worse off in any way.

That said, since when does the casual player count for anything on this board? Please. I watched you guys suck the life out of Otronicon because the rules weren't *competitive*.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Man, this thread has such a fitting title.
Anything that's discussed here turns so heated

 

[Calebyte]

I don't think 1.1 changes enough to justify migrating to it. Infinites aren't removed, they just have a lower % window. (Pika's cg on Fox only works till 40-ish% for example). Admittedly, I don't really know about KO percents being more balanced, but I still don't think it improves enough to justify migration, and it's detrimental to characters like the ICs who have to re-learn a lot of grabs.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't think 1.1 changes enough to justify migrating to it. Infinites aren't removed, they just have a lower % window. (Pika's cg on Fox only works till 40-ish% for example).

Understatement if I ever saw one. I mean...how is not getting 0-deathed from a grab not significant? There's a half billion ways to deal damage. Getting a chaingrab isn't a huge deal unless at the end of it the opponent is either dead or put in a position where they are essentially going to be dead. I mean Mario in Melee chaingrabs Sheik to around 60% if I recall, and can reliably end the combo with U-smash. Sheik still is a very bad matchup for Mario.

Admittedly, I don't really know about KO percents being more balanced, but I still don't think it improves enough to justify migration, and it's detrimental to characters like the ICs who have to re-learn a lot of grabs.

Snake actually can die in 1.1 mechanics. He already kills people stupidly early, so at most he gets about a 15-20% reduction in KO power if I recall, while someone like Mario can consider killing him perhaps 30% earlier.

 

[Inferno3044]

@sleek- if you don't like brawl why do you play it?

 

[Sleek Media]

@sleek- if you don't like brawl why do you play it?

Can you quote the post where I said that I don't like brawl?

 

[Inferno3044]

Can you quote the post where I said that I don't like brawl

Right here

But seriously, it really sounds that way by reading your posts. To be more precise, you don't like competitive brawl. You always talk ill of higher tiered characters for no reason, obviously pro ban on MK, and think the only reason people don't want to have BBrawl as the standard is to keep the high tiers where they are. Just a heads up, EVERY competitive game is like this. Let's take melee as an example. Yeah people can use low tiers like Roy or Pichu, but a vast majority of good players use Fox, Falco, Sheik, and other high tiers. They are better characters and there's nothing wrong them choosing them.

If you are just going to complain about how this game is unbalanced and how you don't like people that use high tiers, don't play competitively.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Or y'know, promote competitive alternatives? The fact is what we call tournament standard is very far from being optimal competitively.

 

[Sleek Media]

If you are just going to complain about how this game is unbalanced and how you don't like people that use high tiers, don't play competitively.

Thanks for the suggestion; I don't play competitively. Never did. The rules are boring, and the people in that crowd are almost always less than ideal to play with. That said, don't mistake suggesting improvements to resolve the MANY problems with the competitive scene for complaining. I don't really care whether you disagree or not, but don't twist my words.

Or y'know, promote competitive alternatives? The fact is what we call tournament standard is very far from being optimal competitively.

Yes, but like I've said before, the "competitive" community only cares about the meta game they've already studied. There is absolutely no chance they will change the rules in any way that will invalidate all the frame-by-frame data they've come up with. It's an obsession.

Still, if you want to play, you sound like you'd fit in with my group.

 

[Fire!]

I highly doubt that the people in this community are playing Brawl competitively for the sake being competitive. There may be a small fraction, but for the most part we as a whole have accepted the fact that Brawl is not a competitive game. No hack is going to change that.

 

[Inferno3044]

Thanks for the suggestion; I don't play competitively. Never did. The rules are boring, and the people in that crowd are almost always less than ideal to play with. That said, don't mistake suggesting improvements to resolve the MANY problems with the competitive scene for complaining. I don't really care whether you disagree or not, but don't twist my words.

The way you say things comes off to me as complaining. Also you're making statements about how competitive play is bad and you have never played it in that sense? Someone is going BCP status right now. Just wondering, you said the rules are boring. What would your competitive ruleset be?

 

[Sleek Media]

What would your competitive ruleset be?

Never the same thing twice in a row.

 

[Matador]

Never the same thing twice in a row.

That's...innovative, lol

 

[Inferno3044]

That's...innovative, lol

That's a nice way to put it. If the rules aren't the same, how do you expect consistency?

 

[Sleek Media]

That's a nice way to put it. If the rules aren't the same, how do you expect consistency?

I don't. Maybe you haven't noticed, but this is SMASH BROTHERS. Consistency isn't in the cards unless you literally cut out every fun factor imaginable. Oh, wait...that's exactly what you do on this board.

 

[HeroMystic]

Then get off the boards.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I like money.

 

[Inferno3044]

I don't. Maybe you haven't noticed, but this is SMASH BROTHERS. Consistency isn't in the cards unless you literally cut out every fun factor imaginable. Oh, wait...that's exactly what you do on this board.

This is what I mean by complaining. Maybe you haven't noticed, smash boards is meant for COMPETITIVE SMASH BROTHERS. Consistency is best for competition's sake. This is why we get rid of bull**** like items and bad stages. I have three questions though:

1. If you don't play competitive smash why are you on smash boards?

2. If you don't play competitive smash why do you complain about high tiers when anyone can beat anyone due to bull****

3. If you don't play competitive smash why do you keep enforcing balanced brawl?

I like money.

I like money too.