Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Cursed Yoma]

honestly just look back a few pages almost every other page has good advice from Max? in the MU.
i was trying to find Max?'s "cliffnotes" vs falco but i dont' remember which page its on and after lookin through about the last 40 pages or so it must be sorta older.. or i scanned over since i skipped a few pages..


basics: cape/powershield/avoid lasers. wavedash OoS approach/retreat against lasers/ in general. get your grabs and make them count. bad Di at low percents can lead into good percent. i like to up throw, up tilt then jab as they hit the ground/right befoe then grab again. good players can cc/shine out of this so use it sparingly. Up throw - fsmash can kill w/ a grab around 60% from bad DI. if you grab them and upthrow and they DI away wavedash fsmash/dash sh uair. Highest priortity *besides avoiding lasers* is getting him off stage. at lower percents and bad reaction/di from them can get you quick gimps. back throw at ledge and if they double jump right away you can dash jump nair and if they go for up b right after rejump uair and then up b to ledge grab and edge hog. dont rely on this and mostly rely on reading thier recovery w/ bairs or nairs . it can be good to fake jumping out after them and then going back on stage to punish what they do. also if you call a side b and have time, cape it. same goes for Up b. i personally am not very good at caping recoveries so i usually grab edge and ledge hop bairs or something.

if you are good at chain grabs you basically get 0-deaths *maybe not realistically, but in theory* Upthrow cgs into the dthrow cg percent and once dthrow cg percent starts it's almost the end of thier stock anyways.

shield pressure can get to you if you aren't good at mixing it up. don't always expect the pillars on shield and respect that they can shine grab you if you stay sheilded in once spot. if all they go for is pillar after the first shine/dair i think you can wd back Out of Shield to avoid it. also mix up how you hold your shield. tilt it up vs his down air can help mess up his l-cancel timing due to him hitting your shield earlier. i think it's best to hold away if he hits it w/ a shine*not sure*.

also look out for laser - grab.. overall Falco's don't get THAT much off their throws but watch for dumb gimmicks like fthrow fsmash or if you tech in place after dthrow..

dont' approach recklessly. lasers will easily snuff anything predictable and will set you up for falco to do ANYTHING to you.. basically. hitting on the point earlier about CGs. i'm not very good at those either, so make sure you got good tech chases cause that's what you'll mostly rely on at that point. something like dthrow spaced dash dance, wd/dash in down smash.


this thread is full of useful info. just read back a few pages. i know there is some discussion on pages 264 and a few pages before it.. probalby a few pages after it..

i touched on a lot, but i'm really not that good of a player so anyone else who wished to put in info is welcome. I was gonna quote some Max? posts but i figured that'd be too much to read then i go and type all this >-> makes sense right?...

 

[g□□n]

Hello there friends. Ive been meaning to get some of my games watched by you guys so you can tell me all the stuff im doing wrong and whatnot. hopefully ill get on stream at kings of the south next month and will be able to post some tourney games, but for now I have random friendlies. Also warning im still not very good and **** up alot.


So apparalently I cant post links yet
so just slap this on at the end of the youtube url

yjTg7qK2LR0

Doc games start around 156

I mess up alot of inputs alot of the times so If I do something completely random like shooting a pill backwards I either flubbed or was feeling myself too hard . Please be as critical as possible and point out all the weak parts of my play ... and if youre feeling nice tell me what I did right too Thanks all

 

[schmooblidon]

You seen a little too eager to land strong hits. You're throwing out fair, fsmash and cape waaay to often. They are super laggy and will get you punished. You had a couple wd back>wd in fairs that worked, but a better player would of predicted them.

You should focus more on spacing and using moves that give you better frame advantage. Extent your combos instead of going for the finisher right away. Try to limit yourself to stuff like nair shffl, shbawd, wd>ftilt, wd>dsmash to approach in neutral, with sometimes a pill in front of you. Use jabs, grabs, insta-upairs when you see a window to get close. Use raw fairs extremely sparingly, you can bait them into a fair but don't do the same bait over and over.

Chaingrab falcon and ganon always, then combo from it. Turn around at the edge when edgeguarding, bair is your best tool.

You have solid movement though, a little erratic but that's not a bad thing if you kknow what your doing. A few too many rolls in neutral and ledgedash sds. Overall good stuff, you seem to have good control, so improving your game shouldn't be a technical issue.

 

[g□□n]

thanks alot for taking the time to watch and write out advice I really appreciate it ! I do tend to throw out those 3 quite a bit and have been noticing as off late how often the raw f-air will get punished if I do not have an accurate read. Are there other ways you would suggest to bait them besides wavedashing and dashdancing ?

The list of moves you gives for use in neutral make a lot more sense than always approaching with f-air. Ive noticed that my neutral game is at its best when I can land wavedash->f-tilt,downsmash consistently. How do you feel about wavedash->up tilt. Ive moticed wavedash uptilt will suprise alot of people in the neutral and even kill on stages like yoshis and dreamland if you hit them with the right part of its hitbox.

Are falcon and ganon chaingrabbed more easily with up-throw or down- throw? Ive been practicig chaingrabs on spacies alot quite recently but still seem to have trouble chaingrabbing Falcon and Ganon.

Thanks for the compliment on my movement. I really enjoy the movement in melee and especially docs movement so it is something I like to practice alot.

 

[schmooblidon]

Well it kinda depends on the opponent. You want them to throw out a laggy move, but even then, fair might not be optimal punish. I'd say use fair if you don't have time or positioning to grab or if it will kill. You could bait a getup attack on a platform, but wavelanding backward off the platform then dj'ing on with a fair.

Yeah it's pretty decent, it has good priority. It doesn't have good horizontal range though, it is best for catching people in the air. But I recommend you play around with it as much as you can, it's a little under utilized.

Falcon = UpThrow. Ganon = Dthrow.

Doc's movement is orgasmic, easily the most satisfying wavedash/land.

 

[Max?]

I recently played Zang at Super Nebs. We'd played friendlies earlier in the week where I was bopping him, but in tournament he 2-0ed me and timed me out both games. It was brutal. Thinking I might need to reevaluate the matchup if Falco's decide to play like that. I literally could not catch him. Anytime I would get close he would immediately DJ away to the top platform or side platforms to safety.

It was the first time I've ever felt that my character was the issue. Usually when I lose it because the other person is better than me/I got out played, but in that moment Doc felt pretty bad.

 

[Mr.Lemon]

That's so sad

Falco on the top platform is so hard to deal with. I usually just dash dance around and make them come to me.

 

[Zonak]

Space animals on the top platform are definitely hard to deal with, and I feel it's the only time that Doc's limitations as a character really come out. There's that NY Fox named Kaeon I had to fight in losers of a Nebulous once. We struck to battlefield game 1 and he just sat on the top platform the entire game. Doc's lack of verticality hurts him on Battlefield and Dreamland, and he can get camped hard. I can't seem to see any good way to get up there fast enough to catch them off guard.

I'm starting to consider doing the ditto or going Falco against Foxes that absolutely refuse to leave the top platform if I have to play on either of those two stages. This is also part of the reason why I believe Pokemon Stadium is the second strongest stage in the matchup. Yes, you can get camped horizontally with lasers but you can deal with that. And that fact that you die at 90% is irrelevant because you kill Fox and Falco off of a grab at 90 as well.

 

[Mr.Lemon]

A good way to get to the top platform while someone is camping it is to go to a side platform then do a FH d.air onto the top one

 

[Zonak]

What do you think about using perfect waveland on the top platform into utilt or usmash? Utilt might be fast enough to catch them jumping and the invincibility from usmash could let you beat a potential bair or nair and combo off of it.

 

[Mr.Lemon]

Mmmm prob not too practical only because they will most likely see it coming, and they're on the platform taking up space to WL onto. An alternative would be maybe and Up+B onto it but then you run the risk of missing it and getting punished. I use Down B a lot to tech chase when ppl are on platforms, try that. I Just make sure I hit them with the last hit of the tornado and I don't land on the platform.

 

[T-Rex Games]

Goon, if you remind me at Kings of the South, I'll do my best to get you on stream

 

[St. Viers]

I'm pretty sure that you can also pill from lower platforms to hit the top one, which at least forces them to jump/shield, which gives you windows to get in. In general people faster than doc (feels like all of them) camping is quite hard. Could also just make sure to camp the lower platforms yourself (prevent laser damage) and try and lame them out yourself. If you do go for the up B that @ Mr.Lemon mentioned, remember that you can fall back through the platform or go for a ledge cancel to make it safer.

In general doc's neutral game feels very poor (limited to ground-based spacing games and pills/capes from very limited ranges) which is something that I struggle with when I do get out to play other people.

 

[VGmasta]

Those aren't bad ideas guys. But Doc's offense gets stuff by Falco's aerials no matter what. And when Falco has the lead like that, Falco can literally just camp away the entire game. I've lost to several unskilled Falco's (I won't drop any names here) ONLY because they've resorted to such playstyle.

 

[St. Viers]

Those aren't bad ideas guys. But Doc's offense gets stuff by Falco's aerials no matter what. And when Falco has the lead like that, Falco can literally just camp away the entire game. I've lost to several unskilled Falco's (I won't drop any names here) ONLY because they've resorted to such playstyle.

Clearly all you can do is powershield the first laser and camp the side platforms >_>

 

[Mr.Lemon]

Those aren't bad ideas guys. But Doc's offense gets stuff by Falco's aerials no matter what. And when Falco has the lead like that, Falco can literally just camp away the entire game. I've lost to several unskilled Falco's (I won't drop any names here) ONLY because they've resorted to such playstyle.

There are ways around campy play when the opponent camps with a lead

 

[VGmasta]

There are ways around campy play when the opponent camps with a lead

Yeah, I know. But it's still like trying to iceskate up hell to chase a super campy Falco all over the stage the whole time.

 

[Mr.Lemon]

Yeah, I know. But it's still like trying to iceskate up hell to chase a super campy Falco all over the stage the whole time.

Yea it's definitely a pain, but Falco is slow moving horizontally. He relies on lasers to help him move across the stage. So he'll prob start camping the platforms, chase after him but don't approach from below the platform he can easily d.air you. Throw pills to slow him down, and force him to move around them. Caping his lasers prob won't do much if he's constantly moving, but this can be good because now you know he'll be jumping around more (because he's slow on the ground) so predict where he is going to end up and punish him for it. The only real problem you should have when someone is trying to camp you is if they go to the top platform. Then you have to get creative.

 

[SmashMac]

The current meta has called for Falco players to come about differently than any other time in SSBM history. I don't see any of the pro Falco's near the ledge anymore. They know to maintain center stage and stick to their pros, pressuring most proficiently in close combat whereby when it's time to secure the kill they have no problem leading the opponent to the edge. Doc is a close combat character as well, but against a proficient Falco or Fox that knows the matchup, the battle will always be double as hard and largely in the space animal's favor. Perfect laser game will always outplay perfect pill game. The premier successful Falco players from the past until this point such as DaShizWiz, PPMD, WestBallz, Lambchops, Forward ... they got that far mostly by knowing their character and its limits. Shiz told me the other day that nowadays it's not enough to know your character but you must know your enemy's character and their limits as well. In essence, a current meta borne Falco would know that he has no need to approach a Doc. He knows Doc. must come to him to get any work done. This is one of the reasons for the space animal matchup I have switched to Marth. It's because of his range and ability to power-shield and cover more space as to break the distance against the spacies. Doc. in this current meta is just too niche of a character that will unfortunately not succeed at the higher levels of play. This is why we've recently seen Shroomed retire his Doc. and pick up Sheik and Marth. Doctor Mario is now more of a secondary character that you can pull out for certain matchups in my opinion. Some may not agree, but to me, it's the sad truth.

 

[JipC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JahKL8Db0xQ
im bad
tell me why
(No but really, criticism would seriously be appreciated, I know I dropped some pretty free edgeguards and did dumb rolls but I'd like advice on my neutral game as Doc)

 

[Sir Bubbles]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JahKL8Db0xQ
im bad
tell me why
(No but really, criticism would seriously be appreciated, I know I dropped some pretty free edgeguards and did dumb rolls but I'd like advice on my neutral game as Doc)

Tech needs improvement, your neutral game would be a lot cleaner with stuff like pivots, cleaner dash dances/wavedashes. I see you do a lot of random rolls, double jumps and spot dodges.

I feel like your Doc is a little too slow in the neutral... (That's not always a bad thing mind you) But you try to get in Fox with Doc's lousy approach, so it doesn't help when your Doc is a little slow. You need to fastfall a little more as well, it

It's good to spice up his movements with wavelands and wavedashes, especially in the Fox MU. I can see your decent spacing working well with some better movement.

Some good things to note, you make good reads, keep good coherent spacing with pills.

Your Doc is definitely not bad like you said you where (Even if you were joking, lol) But I just think that working on your tech will help you very well.

It's also a very good idea to have move diversity, such as uptilt/ftlit to either combo or push the opponent away, or dtlit for some sneaky edgeguards.

 

[1MachGO]

Doc is the best character in the game vs. space animals after Marth

Discuss

 

[Sir Bubbles]

Doc is the best character in the game vs. space animals after Marth

Discuss

That's extremely far fetched.

IMO either Peach, Samus or Sheik.

 

[Mr.Lemon]

Doc is the best character in the game vs. space animals after Marth

Discuss

fair statement tbh

mostly because spacies don't know what to do against doc

 

[as;ldh]

Well in theory doc should have a great matchup against spacies since he can chaingrab them from 33-200 percent (with downthrow). But right now there are no docs that can do that, since it is so hard to do. Doc's generally poor approach compared to the spacies makes it really hard for him to do anything really. I would say that Samus' matchup against them is probably better (we've seen success from Plup recently).
Never posted before, thought I'd start with discussion.

 

[JipC]

Tech needs improvement, your neutral game would be a lot cleaner with stuff like pivots, cleaner dash dances/wavedashes. I see you do a lot of random rolls, double jumps and spot dodges.

I feel like your Doc is a little too slow in the neutral... (That's not always a bad thing mind you) But you try to get in Fox with Doc's lousy approach, so it doesn't help when your Doc is a little slow. You need to fastfall a little more as well, it

It's good to spice up his movements with wavelands and wavedashes, especially in the Fox MU. I can see your decent spacing working well with some better movement.

Some good things to note, you make good reads, keep good coherent spacing with pills.

Your Doc is definitely not bad like you said you where (Even if you were joking, lol) But I just think that working on your tech will help you very well.

It's also a very good idea to have move diversity, such as uptilt/ftlit to either combo or push the opponent away, or dtlit for some sneaky edgeguards.

Thanks for the advice and criticism dude! I also got @SleepyK to analyse the match on his stream which helped me a lot as well

 

[VGmasta]

Doc is the best character in the game vs. space animals after Marth

Discuss

No wayy, not even close. Doc can't hold down high level spacies that easily.
Doc too slow and floaty vs Fox.
Doc can't jump very fast and high enough to keep up with Falco and gets combo'd terribly by Falco.
Doc's projectile game is ok, but it's not LAGLESS and overpowered like Falco, Fox, Peach and Samus. No matter HOW you throw the pill, you are in pill throwing animation for at least 40 frames all day. That's too much vulnerability at high level play.
Good spacies with any type of match up knowledge vs Doc don't challenge Doc on the ground at all. That takes away from nailing free grabs and smash attacks, which are pretty much most of Doc's on-stage kill moves.
Doc's grab game is AMAZING. But his ability to LAND GRABS... "OOOF"-ful. It would be one thing to fight a spacie that would sit still and shield. Good luck landing grabs on a good spacie with Doc's short grab range.

The high level spacies matchup has come down to picky-pokey'ing around with Doc's short ranged aerials (up-airs, b-airs, and n-airs) and his f-tilt and up-tilt and whatever creativity the Doc player wants to try. Doc gets nothing big until one of those makes a knockdown for a potential techchase/punish or puts enough hitstun to connect into grabs or other power hits.
The major problem with the "picky-pokey" game is that it gets stuffed badly by spacies offense. ESPECIALLY Falco.

 

[Max?]

Spent last night completely ****ting on Chops for like 3 hours straight. Feeling way better about Falco. He's way more limited in terms of mobility and spacing than I thought. A lot of Falcos options are telegraphed way before he can do them, so just by knowing what they are it's way easier to deal with him.

Also, **** Wobbling.

 

[Zonak]

I think you should have went Doc for FD. I know you like Luigi for that mu but Doc has a much easier time without platforms.

Game 2 was also the most heartbreaking thing I'd ever seen in Smash.

 

[schmooblidon]

So I heard about the chaingrabs being affected by port priority and did a quick test to see if doc's throws are affected, and they are.

I quickly tested upthrow on falcon, and if doc has a higher port then falcon is in hitstun for 1 frame longer.

I'll find out how exactly this affects the chaingrabs sometime tomorrow, unless someone beats me too it.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

So I heard about the chaingrabs being affected by port priority and did a quick test to see if doc's throws are affected, and they are.

I quickly tested upthrow on falcon, and if doc has a higher port then falcon is in hitstun for 1 frame longer.

I'll find out how exactly this affects the chaingrabs sometime tomorrow, unless someone beats me too it.

Nice stuff, man.

Always finding relevant info on doc.

 

[schmooblidon]

Damage% is after throw damage
Doc has a lower port:
Upthrow
Falcon - 13-51% (DI behind - 66%)
Falco - 0-73% (DI behind - 89%)
Fox - 0-65% (DI behind - 79%)

Dthrow
Sheik 0-67% (DI behind - 83%)

Doc has a higher port:
Upthrow
Falcon - 13-56% (DI behind - 70%)
Falco - 0-78% (DI behind - 93%)
Fox - 0-69% (DI behind - 83%)

Dthrow
Sheik 0-73% (DI behind - 87%)

Not bad

 

[Palmerfan]

Are there any threads or info about playing doc in doubles? I couldn't find much when I poked around the forums

 

[Zonak]

I find that Doc in doubles is good when you play him support. He can really control space in doubles and is better at covering his teammate than being the aggressor. I've done the Doc-Luigi team before and it works nicely because Luigi is good at aggression and Doc is good at defense.

 

[Max?]

Damage% is after throw damage
Doc has a lower port:
Upthrow
Falcon - 13-51% (DI behind - 66%)
Falco - 0-73% (DI behind - 89%)
Fox - 0-65% (DI behind - 79%)

Dthrow
Sheik 0-65% (DI behind - 83%)

Doc has a higher port:
Upthrow
Falcon - 13-56% (DI behind - 70%)
Falco - 0-78% (DI behind - 93%)
Fox - 0-67% (DI behind - 83%)

Dthrow
Sheik 0-73% (DI behind - 87%)

Not bad

Could you elaborate further on why port priority makes a difference at all? Someone was trying to explain this to me yesterday, but your info seems to contradict what they were implying to me yesterday

 

[schmooblidon]

When you have a higher port, your throws inflict 1 more frame of hitstun. Or more accurately, when you have a lower port, your throws skip 1 frame of hitstun.

 

[Max?]

When you have a higher port, your throws inflict 1 more frame of hitstun. Or more accurately, when you have a lower port, your throws skip 1 frame of hitstun.

Jank, this is great to know. I was going to ask if this makes a difference on Doc's dthrow CG on spacies, but the window at which that works is so high I doubt it matters. Great stuff as always dude.

 

[tauKhan]

Jank, this is great to know. I was going to ask if this makes a difference on Doc's dthrow CG on spacies, but the window at which that works is so high I doubt it matters. Great stuff as always dude.

I think the 1 frame of leniency at borderline cases matters even if it's technically possible with either combination of ports. 2 frame window is a lot easier to hit consistently than 1 frame.

Edit: misunderstanding lol.

 

[schmooblidon]

I think the 1 frame of leniency at borderline cases matters even if it's technically possible with either combination of ports. 2 frame window is a lot easier to hit consistently than 1 frame.

This only affects the high percent borders though, when they can jump out before hitting the ground.

For doc with a higher port this border is
Fox - 156%
Falco - 166%

For doc with a lower port this border is
Fox - 146%
Falco - 160%

So at those percents, you will start getting a frame more leniency, but if you get a grab at that percent, you should be converting it into a kill.

There are some super specific setups where the change in animation can cause you to grab a limb with a higher/lower port that you can't with the other.

I found one on Falco with Dthrow. When you have a higher port you can turn grab DI behind at 31% (only 31%, not any percent above or below). Which makes the guaranteed cg window from 32-200+ to 31-200+. There will likely be a bunch of these hidden away, but their are too minor to be of any importance.

 

[tauKhan]

Hmm okay, why are the cg percents different then? ECB orientations?