Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[#HBC | Mac]

anyone wanna give me advice on this set vs a sheik-player ranked top 20 in NJ:

http://www.twitch.tv/sigmelee/b/636126109?t=38m45s

i think i have a bad rolling habit that he was taking advantage of. i also need to clean up my edgeguards vs sheik.

how do you guys deal with sheiks fair zoning?

 

[#HBC | Mac]

whoops

 

[Max?]

anyone wanna give me advice on this set vs a sheik-player ranked top 20 in NJ:

http://www.twitch.tv/sigmelee/b/636126109?t=38m45s

i think i have a bad rolling habit that he was taking advantage of. i also need to clean up my edgeguards vs sheik.

how do you guys deal with sheiks fair zoning?

I'll watch later when my internet decides to work. General tips in dealing with Sheik fair zoning:

CC at low %'s and punish.
DD outside of her fair range, get a feel for when she will jump and uair/nair her.
Dash/WD/roll away, throw pills and reset the situation. If you are by the ledge, roll and buffer shield so you grab ledge.
Roll behind her while she does it.
Wait til she jumps, approach in with shield, react to what she does and punish.
Utilt, usmash, etc etc

 

[VGmasta]

Check this tool-assisted Doc vid guys:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXMwZhC3l2E

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Hey guys, for my down b, I noticed that I cannot rise up off the ground anymore, and I have noticed others rise up in the air, but I have not been able to do this. Is it because I am not pushing the button fast enough? Or is there a specific boundary to this that I have not heard of yet?

 

[Zonak]

You just gotta mash as fast as you can. The best way to practice rising down-b is to go to Yoshi's and try to get to the top platform with down-b. If you get to the top platform, that means you're getting the perfect for near perfect tornado. I actually need to practice this more. I rarely make it to the top platform >_<

 

[Snowking]

Btw, won a big melee tourney this past weekend. A bunch of footage was recorded, I'll post vids when they are up.

Hey there!!! I was wondering if you got any new infos on the footage of the tournament, looking forward to watch your matches

Greetings

 

[Zonak]

Hey there!!! I was wondering if you got any new infos on the footage of the tournament, looking forward to watch your matches

Greetings

OTG vs Fiya [WS]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZNNJYdTjhw

OTG vs Son2 [WF]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbUwIjcM49Y

OTG vs Fiya [GF]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPuQGzm9Z7E

 

[Snowking]

thx man, watching already!!!

 

[Max?]

Should have some newer matchs up at some poitn this week as well. Got 3rd out of 96th at a huge NY regional.

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

You just gotta mash as fast as you can. The best way to practice rising down-b is to go to Yoshi's and try to get to the top platform with down-b. If you get to the top platform, that means you're getting the perfect for near perfect tornado. I actually need to practice this more. I rarely make it to the top platform >_<

Okay wow, I did not know it was possible to get that high
does the doc tornado ever grow stale?

 

[Zonak]

Okay wow, I did not know it was possible to get that high
does the doc tornado ever grow stale?

Doc's tornado will go the same height every time assuming you hit B enough times each time. You can only use it once in the air and need to land before you can use it in the air again. The actual hitbox can stale just like any other hitbox, but you'll almost never use it as an attack so it'll probably stay fresh most of the time.

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Okay, should I also try to practice my tornado recoveries then, and how fast can I up b afterward

 

[Zonak]

Yea, learning how to use the tornado recovery is very important. If you get a perfect or near perfect tornado, you actually gain a bit of height before you become actionable again. The two most common uses for a tornado stall will either be right after you come out of hitstun from being knocked offstage and close to the stage to bait your opponent into some sort of ledge getup option so you can up-b and grab ledge. If you drift towards the stage and choose to tornado under the stage, you should save your double jump so that way you just don't up-b and die and still have the up-b to the stage option which isn't ideal, but hey, you're not dead! Tornadoing far offstage (most of the time in the top corners of the stage) is really just to buy you time to you can think about your recovery. This isn't bad as you'll gain some height and be able to focus on throwing pills for recovery and since you'll be high, you'll still retain the airdodge to stage option.

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Okay, how often should I try to tornado recover mid game?

 

[Sir Bubbles]

Okay, how often should I try to tornado recover mid game?

Honestly, it's all dependent on your tempo. You shouldn't do it all the time for your opponent to punish you, but as a mix-up and stall option, it's great and even if you don't get the max tornado presses, the chances of you making it back aren't that bad assuming they understand the Doc MU.

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Okay, and do you know about how many frames it is before I can get out of the tornado to finish my recovery?

 

[g□□n]

Btw, won a big melee tourney this past weekend. A bunch of footage was recorded, I'll post vids when they are up.

OTG yer a wizard. You inspired me to practice up on up - smash techchasing. Pretty sweet stuff.

 

[Zonak]

I'd like some critique on a couple of matches. First one is against Gohan, a local peach. I feel like I'm having trouble punishing whiffed attacks against peach. (you can ignore game 2. that was an experiment gone wrong)

Second one is against Brian. I feel whenever I get hit by Falco, I sort of panic and just get smacked around for a bit.

http://www.twitch.tv/sigmelee/b/638214837?t=47m40s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIE46-yZXIQ

 

[Max?]

Nick I'll watch those matches later, or better yet if I go to Nebs this weekend we can sit down and grind some stuff out if you're down.

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Anyone know approximately how many times I need to press b on a down b to get it to be perfect?

 

[Zonak]

Nick I'll watch those matches later, or better yet if I go to Nebs this weekend we can sit down and grind some stuff out if you're down.

Word, I'm down to play at Nebs. It'll be good to be able to learn what I'm doing wrong and apply it on the spot.

Anyone know approximately how many times I need to press b on a down b to get it to be perfect?

You need to press it 18 times before frame 38. That means you need to hit the button every other frame for it to be perfect.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

@ Zonak this just a brain dump of my thoughts on peach after watching both my and your sets with gohan.

vs peach
dealing with her float:

• approaching her float is one of the more annoying parts of this match up. i agree that punishing her whiffed moves is so difficult because of her FC so usually i opt to hit her before she hits the ground or punish what she does after she lands. i avoid trying to punish her aerials directly cuz peaches are really good at keeping their aerials safe.
• usually when i sh approach her float directly, i get ****ed up by a well spaced fair / nair. or she just floats out of range a tad bit and then does an aerial. SHing at her float is wayyyyy too telegraphed and will get you ****ed up.
• footsies are amazing in this match up. doc is quicker than peach so try to abuse that by weaving in and out of peaches range and only committing to attacks with purpose.
• pill her to haze her out of float. sh pills and mid height pills are the best for this. pills also force her to give up space cuz usually she'll avoid them by moving backwards. (make sure you don't throw unsafe pills tho and pay attention to her tryna float over or dash under your pill trajectory, she's slow so if you call her doing any of these things you can generally punish with something.)
  
• FH dair is amazing
• overshoot or undershoot all your aerials. peach in float will NEVER stay where she just was, they either drift back in the float or try to beat / intercept your aerial with a fair. if you overshoot your aerial, you can beat her drift back. if you undershoot the aerial, you can bair her to come in with bad spacing and beat her with an utilt or dashing away after the aerial.
• when peach is cornered, her float is easier to deal with since she has less options. if she drifts back in float off the side of the stage, that puts her in a terrible position because now you can call her trying to land back on the stage with a fair, or you can turn around and haze her float with bairs.

stop throwing out unsafe nairs -- if you're gonna nair, try to make sure you're overshooting it. also nair doesn't really do too much when you hit with it. gohan was at a high percent a couple times and you landed some early nairs and it didn't even send him far enough for an edge guard opportunity. nair is also bad cuz it's so long and gives peach a lot of time to counterattack your approach with a dd away or spacing a fair around it.

go for the upair if you want something quick or space the dair if you want something to cover a lot of space over a period of time. gohan hit you with dash back dsmash too many times because he called you coming in with nair. he tried to do the same to me, but i came in with uair instead so i had time to jab him before he dsmashed. (tho he cced my jab and dsmashed anyways lol, but i couldda dsmashed instead or just rolled away)

uptilt is amazing in this match up. utilting after your aerials is a great way to beat out peach trying to come in and punish from a float. ftilt is also a pretty good poke.

don't stay in shield vs peach. if peach hits your shield with any aerial, you'll probably get rekt with FC dsmash / grab / jab. if you do find yourself in shield, and the peach isn't all up in your space yet, just roll away. they're too slow to punish unless they were already in your space.

when edgeguarding BAIR BAIR BAIR. don't be afraid to bair while DIing into them. bairing into their float is amazing. the reward for getting a bair is so good. even if you don't hit, you need to establish that you won't let them float into your space for free, and it also opens up bair feints that you can do to get the peach to waste their float time floating backwards in order to avoid a possible bair.

keep baiting their air dodges and fsmashing it when they're coming from above. (i actually saw you do this a while back and stole it from you)

some jank i started doing: if you call them coming down on you from float with any aerial, you can just cape them. it'll delay them in the air a bit messing up their FC which leaves them open for you to punish. usually turning them around will allow you to dodge their aerial hitbox, but sometimes the move still hits you and you'll have to crouch cancel to get the punish. cape is maddd punishable tho so only do this when it'll work lol

vs brian (i barely watched this one):
one thing i noticed, sometimes you'll grab brian when he's at high % and you're near the ledge, and you'll go for the backthrow to set up for an edgeguard. try just going for the utrhow -> fair here if you know it'll kill and the back throw won't.

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Word,

You need to press it 18 times before frame 38. That means you need to hit the button every other frame for it to be perfect.

Holy crap! Wow, I thought 7 presses was good, but I guess not lol

 

[Zonak]

Great post, Yedi! A lot of really good insight into the matchup. Definitely going to watch my set again while going over your notes.

I still have a lot of personal development I need to be doing. I definitely need to break my habits of doing bad nairs (I call them Kevorkian Nairs) and sitting in shield too much. I also definitely don't throw enough pills in MUs where I should like Peach and Puff. I also need to stop drifting towards people with dair and nair. It's so telegraphed but I do it anyway for some reason and always get punished. I should take my time coming down, back off, and reset neutral.

At Nebs, I had to play dizzkidboogie in bracket in which I played Doc and I did a MM with him later where I played Luigi so I could see both ends of the mu and I plan on doing a writeup on it when the time of day is more reasonable

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I still have a lot of personal development I need to be doing. I definitely need to break my habits of doing bad nairs (I call them Kevorkian Nairs) and sitting in shield too much.

yea same i have a ton of bad habits too like panic rolling and downsmashing lol

and yea, i find that i tend to do worse when i start using my shield too much (or preemptive shielding) especiallly vs falco and peach. i'm sure otg doesn't have this problem as much cuz his oos game is too good. and only in certain match ups, i feel mad comfortable in shield vs samus / jiggs cuz docs wd oos game is too strong vs them.

 

[schmooblidon]

Hey guys I found some new ways to up-b cancel yesterday. I should start by saying that these aren't game changing in the slightest, and are just for fun. (Maybe method 1 on low platforms but it'd be super hard to be consistent)

So as you might know you can up-b cancel after a jump if you up-b within a couple frames of leaving the ground. I found out why it works and realised their would be other ways to apply this. There are 4 ways I have discovered so far, and it's a lot like the invisible shine setups (uses similar tech).

The first method is up-bing onto a platform whilst rising above it. This can be done by doublejumping within the first 10 frames of fullhop airborne frames, and then up-b within the first 7 frames of doublejump. This makes it so the lower the platform is the more lenient the timing, and makes it impossible on dreamland. It's pretty easy to get down on yoshis and pstadium but battlefield will take a little more practice.

The second method is a platform drop to doublejump to up-b cancel back on the platform. For this you must doublejump within the first 12 frames of being airborne, then up-b when you are just above the platform.

The third method is shorthopping up a slope, or if the slope is steep enough doublejumping as well. This goes by the same rules as method 1 (well all methods really), you must either up-b within the first 7 frames of jump airborne frames, or doublejump within the first 10 and up-b within the first 7 frames of the doublejump. This method is hard as balls to perform.

The forth method is the walk off, and given docs less than amazing fall speed can only be done from very small heights. You fall off a platform or stage, and you must up-b within the first 7 frames of Fall, or doublejump within the first 10, and up-b within the first 7 of doublejump.

Now there's a rule for hitlag that basically ruins any chance of being viable. Because this tech uses an ecb update, hitlag doesn't stop the counter. So for all methods, replace the number 7 with 4. This makes the first method on battlefield impossible with hitlag for instance, and a lot harder on yoshis+pstadium.

I'll make a vid or gfys very soon, but I thought I'd let you guys have some useless by cool doc stuff to try out.

edit: I dunno if I made it unclear, but I should mention that you still need to do an up-b cancel, you can't just up-b.

 

[Max?]

Here are some more vids from some recent tournies I've gone to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnZIUNJunuA (LF vs. Captain Smuckers (Falcon))

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1rY_AlXKwQ (LS vs. Fiya (Fox))

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAqXjpuEbCI (LQ vs. DJ Nintendo (Mario))

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykaewzzX69s (W1 vs. Young (Marth))

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fRmjOKT5Sg (LS vs. Dizzkidboogie (Icies) <-- Def go Luigi in this set too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVyjtqd8s2M (LQ vs. Emukiller (Marth))

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNNr22OOcMg (WS vs. HDL (Marth)) <-- Heart breaker

Enjoy! More to come hopefully

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I'll make a vid or gfys very soon, but I thought I'd let you guys have some useless by cool doc stuff to try out.

edit: I dunno if I made it unclear, but I should mention that you still need to do an up-b cancel, you can't just up-b.

gif would be cool for sure, i would try this myself if i had a setup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnZIUNJunuA (LF vs. Captain Smuckers (Falcon))

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1rY_AlXKwQ (LS vs. Fiya (Fox))

these are probably the hypest sets

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Hey guys, which has higher priority? L cancels or wave dashing? Also any tips for practicing l cancelling? I am not good at it, and I can't tell if I have successfully done it with doc or not. How do I tell

 

[Zonak]

Hey guys, which has higher priority? L cancels or wave dashing? Also any tips for practicing l cancelling? I am not good at it, and I can't tell if I have successfully done it with doc or not. How do I tell

You should be practicing both a lot. With practicing L-Cancels, doing it with Link's down air is a great starter because it's really easy to see the difference between the L-Cancelled and non L-Cancelled versions (when l-cancelled, he pulls up his sword out of the ground faster)

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

You should be practicing both a lot. With practicing L-Cancels, doing it with Link's down air is a great starter because it's really easy to see the difference between the L-Cancelled and non L-Cancelled versions (when l-cancelled, he pulls up his sword out of the ground faster)

Thank you, I am now able to do both pretty well, and I used to be a link main, but I will say that L canceling with Link was too easy. I figured out that throwing a jab after an attempted L cancel would allow me to see if it worked or not, and was also useful midgame. But thanks again, in switching to doc, I have been able to learn wave dashing, wave lands, and L canceling which has made me a much stronger player

 

[schmooblidon]

gfycats!

Finally got a new pc, expect some serious shizzle in the coming weeks


BONUS: Platform drop up-bcancel

 

[Max?]

Nice choice of Japes for that gif, never noticed those test tubes before.

 

[schmooblidon]

I've never heard anyone speak of this but it may be known to most. But when you need to refresh ledge invincibility doc can doublejump low enough and grab the edge, that his hurtbox is way under the stage. I'd it's a 3 frame window for a decent amount under. Seems like it might be something to aim for, if they are right up in your grill. Other than fox and falco, I can't see any drawbacks to doing this low, as you can up-b if they do almost anything. Only dash pivot edgehogs on insane reaction could beat this and those aren't practical. For fox and falco, dash drop shine is possible but kinda hard for them and would need great reactions.

I dunno, like 20XX doc stuff, might be a good idea?

 

[Zonak]

There are definitely times where I abuse Doc's magnet and go low from the edge to stall. Really good way to setup an invincible ledgedash. It's a super good option, especially against Marth, Sheik, and Peach you can punish you super quick and easily for peaking above the edge.

and I think that 20XX Doc should be referred to as 20Rx

 

[schmooblidon]

That name is brilliant! 2Rx

 

[#HBC | Mac]

what do you guys think of up air oos?

doc's comes out on frame 4 and covers himself really well (for comparison, peach's nair comes out frame 3)

i thought using upair could work well to combat falcos laser / late aerial approach when you're in shield, and i had a bit of success with it in this fashion. I was playing DJ's doc yesterday with falco, and he definitely loves this move in close quarters.

also could it work to get out of fox pressure after the shine? many players wait after the aerial -> shine hits their shield to try to counter it, (azusa does this with peach's nair and grab really well, and this is also a spot where OTG likes to use upsmash oos to beat the aerial coming after the shine) I wonder if you could use uair in the same way.

 

[schmooblidon]

what do you guys think of up air oos?

doc's comes out on frame 4 and covers himself really well (for comparison, peach's nair comes out frame 3)

i thought using upair could work well to combat falcos laser / late aerial approach when you're in shield, and i had a bit of success with it in this fashion. I was playing DJ's doc yesterday with falco, and he definitely loves this move in close quarters.

also could it work to get out of fox pressure after the shine? many players wait after the aerial -> shine hits their shield to try to counter it, (azusa does this with peach's nair and grab really well, and this is also a spot where OTG likes to use upsmash oos to beat the aerial coming after the shine) I wonder if you could use uair in the same way.

Definitely a good option, especially with how well instant upair sets up strings. The only thing that truely beats shine>nair is up-bcancel. From shield Up-bCancel is frame 4, grab is frame 7, nair is frame 7, upair is frame 8, bair is frame 10, upsmash is frame 10. Fox's aren't normally that fast though, so that shouldn't matter too much, plus foxs love to shine so it's likely going to be staled.

Fresh shine does 4 frames of shieldstun, and 4 frames of hitlag.

Imagine these are the nine staling slots
.09 .08 .07 .06 .05 .04 .03 .02 .01

If shine is in the queue multiple times you add each value to find the total staling, When the total is .11 or more then shine only does 3 frames of shieldstun, and up-bcancel can even beat multishining. When the total is .41 or more (kinda unlikely), then it does 1 frame less hitlag.

Another thing about upair is it's range. OoS options range go like this:

Shortest first:
Nair - frame 7
Backwards Upsmash - frame 10
Grab - frame 7
Up-bCancel - frame 4
=Upair - frame 8
=Bair - frame 10
Forwards Upsmash - frame 12
Bair - frame 11

Upair will outrange shine, nair, dair, and is about even with a bair.

Made another comparison image

Does not take into account forwards/backwards jumps or drift, so if you were to do that with the aerials they will reach even further.

 

[Max?]

Definitely a good option, especially with how well instant upair sets up strings. The only thing that truely beats shine>nair is up-bcancel. From shield Up-bCancel is frame 4, grab is frame 7, nair is frame 7, upair is frame 8, bair is frame 10, upsmash is frame 10. Fox's aren't normally that fast though, so that shouldn't matter too much, plus foxs love to shine so it's likely going to be staled.

Fresh shine does 4 frames of shieldstun, and 4 frames of hitlag.

Imagine these are the nine staling slots
.09 .08 .07 .06 .05 .04 .03 .02 .01

If shine is in the queue multiple times you add each value to find the total staling, When the total is .11 or more then shine only does 3 frames of shieldstun, and up-bcancel can even beat multishining. When the total is .41 or more (kinda unlikely), then it does 1 frame less hitlag.

Another thing about upair is it's range. OoS options range go like this:

Shortest first:
Nair - frame 7
Backwards Upsmash - frame 10
Grab - frame 7
Up-bCancel - frame 4
=Upair - frame 8
=Bair - frame 10
Forwards Upsmash - frame 12
Bair - frame 11

Upair will outrange shine, nair, dair, and is about even with a bair.

Made another comparison image

Does not take into account forwards/backwards jumps or drift, so if you were to do that with the aerials they will reach even further.

This image is a little hard to interpret here. From reading I conceptually know whats going on, but man theres a lot happening here.