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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

#HBC | Mac

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I have a tendency to come down with dair a lot. I know it's rather disjointed, but would it be better to try to bair when coming down instead? Coming down from getting knocked high in the air of course. I also feel like I come down with dair to hit my opponent on the ground and then connect with an uptilt. Is this supposed to work? It seems like a nice little chain that I can do.


dair isn't bad at all. it has good range below and can auto cancel from a fulljump. but it does take a long time, and while often you can get away with it cuz ppl are scared to get hit by it, many good players know how to space their aerials to trade or just beat the dair as soon as they see it's out. So use it sparingly. Unfortuanately, doc doesn't have many good options coming down

I really like using Docs uptilt in general, I'm just not really aware of all the situations that it proves to be useful.

I've looked at jab to uptilt in debug mode and it looks like it reaches pretty far in front of you, but the uptilt will push them away instead of up if you hit it at the beginning frames. Is there any real use to hit the opponent away at the trajectory?

utilt is pretty amazing, i def recommend using it a lot as an anti-air. its also a good move to use if you want to cover yourself after lag quickly since its starts up fast and has decent range. also sometimes the fact that it pushes shields out of range can be useful to give you some breathing room.

i actually like the dual nature of the uair hitboxes and prefer it to mario's uptilt. the horizontal hit can knock down spacies and lead to a techchase. also it's great for edgeguarding vs spacies illusions, if you hit with the horizontal part it sends them at a great gimp angle, if you hit with the launcher part, it combos easily into fair/bair/fsmash etc.

While it's a good move, like shieks tilts it can be baited n punished.

Also lol I don't know how to pill in neutral. I tend to just run away and do a retreating pill and then slowly come back in while doing SH and FH pills, trying to close into my opponent, but I might be coming in to much when I do that. I often don't know when to go in vs an opponent that I hit a pill with and try to close the distance. Is there something I should be looking for?

im not the greatest at pilling, but I think you'd want to be intimately aware of the pill trajectory and be able to place a pill at any point on the ground by doing a FH / quick double jump pill.
here is how i use them:
  • to limit options. often you can pill in a way so your opponent can dash in or they'd be hit by the pill, and they can't jump from where they are otherwise they'd be hit by the pill. this forces them to swat the pill or give up some stage control by moving backwards.
  • to cover movement. FH pill to cover dash away sometimes or dash towards. usually if you can pill them out of movement it can mess up their rhythm a bit
  • to approach. you can FH pill (to waveland) and space the pill and yourself so that you're in attacking range right after the pill invades your opponents space. for example, approaching FH pill to land right in front of their shield where you can jab them and set up that mix up. You can also do this with FH -> waveland pill, you just have to get used to the pill spacing and understand how you can folow up the pill aggressively.
  • just for pressure. pilling forces them to do something about the projectiles, also if I call them retreating after a close corners interaction, i will pill to keep up the pressure.
also, the later your pill invades their space, the better it is because it gives your more time to follow up. vs slower floaties, usually you can follow up on a the second bounce of a grounded / SH pill with one of your slow moves likes a fair because the pill is hitting so late.

Should nair ever be used in neutral? How about off-stage to try to gimp someone?

top doc players like OTG think nair should be used sparingly in neutral and others like me and Kevorkian have been bitten many times by abusing nair. Here's something I wrote yesterday on the subject:

sh nair should mostly be used as a read, i.e.:
  • predict that they're going to spotdodge your approach so you hit with the late nair
  • overshoot the nair to predict their dash away (also hits with the late hit)
besides those situations, nair is slow and has bad range and a lot of lag and is similar to many other approaches so most good players know how to beat it easily. beware abusing SH nair too much
nair is pretty solid for edgeguarding vs things like spacies illusions. I often do a double jump nair back onto the stage to edgeguard vs spacies illusions akin to sheik

Can dair be viable for edgeguarding since it reaches below the ledge?

maybe not edgeguarding, i've not played around with it. it can be really useful for gimping though, there's some dair gimp jank that boss came up with way back when that shroomed rediscovered on his own

ight old schoool gimp note only works on fast fallers and marth....

bthrow off edge...follow with dair....if you go through them Bair.....if they are in front of you uair.....then b-up back and wait for a free cape....lol old school gimp...
my once a match gimp is fthrow, short hop dair offstage and bair under the stage

I probably saw that in a video, but I used it the last tourney and it's a really quick stock
(this forum has so many gems)


When should I use Doc's cape vs Falco's lasers and Peach's turnips? Should I cape retreating or towards my opponent? Do you guys use SH instant upair to hit opponents off the ground much? What do you do off of it if that happens? (vs fast fallers).
use cape often vs projectiles imo. still debating/experimenting with cape direction

sh instant uair is docs best approach by far. you can combo it into many things and follow knockdowns pretty easily after it
 

RedmanSSBM

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Thanks for the lengthy response @ #HBC | Mac #HBC | Mac . I really like Docs ability to gimp space animals pretty well like in the video that you provided. I'm definitely thinking of working more on my Doc for the spacies, Sheik, and maybe Falcon, Peach, or Puff. Maining Ganondorf can be a struggle at times, and Doc is really fun for me, since I first started playing him like almost a year ago. I put some decent work into him as well, getting that CG down pretty well and doing alright with him.

I probably should look at some more Doc vs Sheik vids. I would certainly hope that Doc does better in that MU than Ganon does lol.
 

ChivalRuse

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Doc should in theory be better against Sheik than Ganon. In some ways, Doc has a better recovery because it's less telegraphed and his up-b actually has priority. And having a projectile is always useful against a character with a bad approach like Sheik.
 
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Zonak

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Doc should in theory be better against Sheik than Ganon. In some ways, Doc has a better recovery because it's less telegraphed and his up-b actually has priority. And having a projectile is always useful against a character with a bad approach like Sheik.
Up-B will lose or trade with any sex kick. Sheik can not be invincible, have a nair out, and completely beat your up-b. It's actually really bad priority wise except for the final hitbox which is okay. But the rest of the time a hitbox is out, Doc's hand is actually slightly above the hitbox. Check out the frame data thread. Also Sheik bair will eat a pill and then eat you :(
 

ranmaru

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On dair, I like to use it sometimes, but only rising early, with a late bair. I don't know about dair > uptilt, since dair doesn't really send them up nicely for an uptilt. On cape, at least be moving while caping. Don't just stand there. SH cape is better since you can waveland after. I have also been hit alot by using nair alot as an approach. I try to use it when I think the other character will do an attack I think I can beat with nair. For example, if falco is sh nairing, I only need to fh nair + fast fall, on top of them. Can't do that all the time though.

Here is me playing against peach > falco > falcon > fox.

https://youtu.be/onFXKoSRsoY

Please critique guys. : D Also aiming to go to as many tournaments I can this summer. I don't think I will be as social as I was in the last semester. All melee.
 
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ChivalRuse

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Up-B will lose or trade with any sex kick. Sheik can not be invincible, have a nair out, and completely beat your up-b. It's actually really bad priority wise except for the final hitbox which is okay. But the rest of the time a hitbox is out, Doc's hand is actually slightly above the hitbox. Check out the frame data thread. Also Sheik bair will eat a pill and then eat you :(
Yeah this is true. But it still stands a better chance than Ganon's up-b. Also, it's incredibly easy for Sheik to go out and fair Ganon when he does his wizard kick recovery.
 
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Mr.Lemon

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What a troll this Dr Mario is!
Why is everyone so good at Up-B cancel?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo5pgvXm5Gg
It's the future brah

Can we talk about how amazing/horrible Doc's n.air can be depending on how well we use it. I've used it successfully in so many different scenarios, but I've also used it poorly and have gotten punished hard for it. It's such a strange move and I think Shroomed utilizes it the best. What does everyone else think?
 

ChivalRuse

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I don't think it's horrible. It's pretty straightforward in its purpose. In fact, it might be easier to use than some other nairs (like Mario's for example), simply because you don't have to worry about how early to do the move. It always benefits you to do it as early as possible.
 

ranmaru

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I like to use it sparingly, as a surprise.
 
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ChivalRuse

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Yeah you can occasionally get a good sense for when the opponent is getting used to your patient bair, tilt, pill walling. Then suddenly you're in their face with nair.
 

#HBC | Mac

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abusing nair will get you ****ed up, uair is way better to approach with

which aerials do you guys use most
for me prolly
uair > bair > fair > nair > dair maybe? idk all docs aerials can be pretty good in their own way. uair / bair are def the best tho
 

Zonak

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I've been getting better about stopping myself from using nair in neutral but it's just habit sometimes. I like using nair to catch spacie side-b or as a platform tech-chase read. The strong hit comes out by the time they're vulnerable from their tech animation and they just go flying. Sometimes throwin the nair out in neutral is alright but you gotta be confident it's gonna hit and your opponent should be at some mid to high percent since it's punishable on hit at low percents.

Dair is also a really good move. I like using dair to try to setup grabs or dsmashes if you catch them out of a jump or using it to combo to uair/bair if you catch them midair. It's really good as an anti approach too since you can fullhop and fadeback with dair and you'll autocancel it or finish the animation so you can either bait someone or just stuff them outright.

Uair is def the best aerial tho. Quick start up, auto cancels out of a shff, crazy safe when you crossup with it. Combos into dsmash on certain characters at certain percents. This move is so friggen good
 

RedmanSSBM

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Well... I just tried Doc in tournament vs a Falco and vs a Sheik. I feel like I played okay vs the Falco but terrible vs the Sheik. I just didn't know what to do in neutral besides spam pills and come in on her shield. I mean for crying out loud I got her to shield and then I jabbed it, resulting ion me getting shield-grabbed a lot. I also just don't know how to use advancing upair in neutral. I need to watch more Doc vs Falco and Sheik videos.

Both of the sets got recorded, so I'll post them here when they are up. I generally play bad and I know a lot of the mistakes that I make, but by all means I will be looking for a critique either way.
 

Mr.Lemon

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Well... I just tried Doc in tournament vs a Falco and vs a Sheik. I feel like I played okay vs the Falco but terrible vs the Sheik. I just didn't know what to do in neutral besides spam pills and come in on her shield. I mean for crying out loud I got her to shield and then I jabbed it, resulting ion me getting shield-grabbed a lot. I also just don't know how to use advancing upair in neutral. I need to watch more Doc vs Falco and Sheik videos.

Both of the sets got recorded, so I'll post them here when they are up. I generally play bad and I know a lot of the mistakes that I make, but by all means I will be looking for a critique either way.
In neutral vs both of them, you need to be moving to avoid Falco's lasers and to avoid Shiek's pressure. If you get them to shield grab them. You can also chaingrab both of them and edgeguard them both fairly easily.





Aerial discussion: I've been experimenting with u.air oos and it's pretty good if you can get it to work. Also, I've been trying to get fade back f.air when ppl approach kind of like how Gannon uses his fair.
 

RedmanSSBM

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Well, here are the recorded matches from yesterday.

vs Falco: https://youtu.be/ZXimWfWS4v8?t=4m13s
vs Sheik: https://youtu.be/6p5hVqDVdfU?t=9m20s

I'm realizing now that I'm messing up a lot of tech and basic things because I'm afraid of messing the things up. I'm not necessarily afraid of losing, but I guess I'm subconsciously being afraid to do certain tech at the ledge cause I'll SD. I don't get it. I do all my tech totally fine in friendlies but when it comes to tournament I play worse cause I'm afraid to play worse. I like don't try to have something to try out or adapt to and I go back to where I feel comfortable, yet it's having like the opposite affect on me cause I actually miss a lot of l-cancels, grabs, wavedashes, etc. It's probably a sure-fire sign that I need to continue doing solo practice on a day to day basis. It seems like to me that I need to just ingrain tech into me so much to the point where I never mess it up and I'm 100% comfortable with it. There's a lot of moments in these two matches that I had a particular idea in mind or a read in mind, but I just didn't hit the right buttons.

TL;DR: My mindset is okay but my techskill is horrid.
 

VGmasta

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Well, here are the recorded matches from yesterday.
vs Falco: https://youtu.be/ZXimWfWS4v8?t=4m13s
vs Sheik: https://youtu.be/6p5hVqDVdfU?t=9m20s

I'm realizing now that I'm messing up a lot of tech and basic things because I'm afraid of messing the things up. I'm not necessarily afraid of losing, but I guess I'm subconsciously being afraid to do certain tech at the ledge cause I'll SD. I don't get it. I do all my tech totally fine in friendlies but when it comes to tournament I play worse cause I'm afraid to play worse. I like don't try to have something to try out or adapt to and I go back to where I feel comfortable, yet it's having like the opposite affect on me cause I actually miss a lot of l-cancels, grabs, wavedashes, etc. It's probably a sure-fire sign that I need to continue doing solo practice on a day to day basis. It seems like to me that I need to just ingrain tech into me so much to the point where I never mess it up and I'm 100% comfortable with it. There's a lot of moments in these two matches that I had a particular idea in mind or a read in mind, but I just didn't hit the right buttons.

TL;DR: My mindset is okay but my techskill is horrid.
Vs that Sheik, just try to avoid giving out shieldgrabs.
Cross through her with the up-airs to avoid being shieldgrabbed so freely.
If you anticipate her to shield and then shieldgrab you, just run up and grab her instead of attacking her shield.
If you are about to land in front of her shield, try landing with a late up-air, then L-cancel into a d-smash or spotdodge to try avoid be grabbed out of the air.

This fear of SDing on the ledge is common in tournament play and I use to be afraid to do anything by the ledge at all because of it.
You just have to learn to go in the tournament sets with confidence behind your techskill.
I still SD by the ledge every now and again. But I've learned to just shake it off and keep playing how I normally play.

In this set, I SDed by the ledge on my 1st stock. I shook it off, kept playing and didn't SD the rest of the set:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yKkXn-j5OY
 
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ChivalRuse

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Well, here are the recorded matches from yesterday.
vs Falco: https://youtu.be/ZXimWfWS4v8?t=4m13s
vs Sheik: https://youtu.be/6p5hVqDVdfU?t=9m20s

I'm realizing now that I'm messing up a lot of tech and basic things because I'm afraid of messing the things up. I'm not necessarily afraid of losing, but I guess I'm subconsciously being afraid to do certain tech at the ledge cause I'll SD. I don't get it. I do all my tech totally fine in friendlies but when it comes to tournament I play worse cause I'm afraid to play worse. I like don't try to have something to try out or adapt to and I go back to where I feel comfortable, yet it's having like the opposite affect on me cause I actually miss a lot of l-cancels, grabs, wavedashes, etc. It's probably a sure-fire sign that I need to continue doing solo practice on a day to day basis. It seems like to me that I need to just ingrain tech into me so much to the point where I never mess it up and I'm 100% comfortable with it. There's a lot of moments in these two matches that I had a particular idea in mind or a read in mind, but I just didn't hit the right buttons.

TL;DR: My mindset is okay but my techskill is horrid.
One good outlook that can help you to be more confident and less afraid is to focus on the strong points that you have as a player and that your character possesses. It's not even just a mentality concept; it applies to lots of things...

Sports: You wouldn't try to catch a fly ball if you are a pitcher. Your strength is throwing, not fielding.
Music: You wouldn't play Jazz piano in a concert if your specialty is classical music. Stick to the genre that you are good at.
Chess: You wouldn't play D4 openings as white if you know the lines for E4 openings better. Use your knowledge and experience in the areas where you have dedicated the most time.

As it applies to smash, try to find out what your strengths and weaknesses are as a player. Do you not feel strong spacing aerials? Then concentrate on your ground movement. Do you feel inconsistent at invincible ledgedashes? Then go for other tricks to get back on stage. Are you not amazing at comboing out of throws? Then go for u-throw instead and try to catch them coming down with a move (or throw them off stage and try to maximize your punish with that position advantage).
 

RedmanSSBM

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@ ChivalRuse ChivalRuse I feel like that works from time to time but it's not a very good mentality to have when you want to work on implementing new things into your gameplay or fix problems. It seems to me like the method that you mentioned is a way to avoid the problem rather than facing it head on. Maybe it works in certain situations in tournament, like I realize that the pace I'm trying to play at isn't working and I need to slow it down. That's something that I preach a lot but don't actually practice because I don't have the mental fortitude to remember to do it in the middle of a tournament match. I tend to get stubborn and I need to learn to control that and go against the grain.
 

VGmasta

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And it's really easy to get lost in the intensity of a tournament match and begin to input commands faster than you're supposed to.
Most of my technical errors come from inputting the commands faster than the game will read them. Like trying to ledgedash to quickly from the ledge usually results in an SD.
I realize that I input the waveland in before my character was above ground level of the stage and decide to just slow down on how fast I input my commands. After that, problem solved.
 
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ChivalRuse

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@ ChivalRuse ChivalRuse I feel like that works from time to time but it's not a very good mentality to have when you want to work on implementing new things into your gameplay or fix problems. It seems to me like the method that you mentioned is a way to avoid the problem rather than facing it head on. Maybe it works in certain situations in tournament, like I realize that the pace I'm trying to play at isn't working and I need to slow it down. That's something that I preach a lot but don't actually practice because I don't have the mental fortitude to remember to do it in the middle of a tournament match. I tend to get stubborn and I need to learn to control that and go against the grain.
It's good to branch out and work on new technical feats, but that's more reserved for friendlies and solo practice. In tournament, if you want to win, you rely on what you know.
 

Hooooots

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Why isn't cape used in neutral and offensively... It can really throw your opponent off and set you up for an up smash , down smash , or even a gimp...
 

Hooooots

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Cape does some amazing things sometimes. But it's hilarious when you cape a move and it hits you anyway.
Ye that's the only problem with it , but I still think the risk reward is pretty equal , also on top of setting yourself up for a better position you're also getting percent from the cape as well... If doc's can start reading moves and caping them i believe he has the possibility to move up at least a couple spots on the tier list. What I also feel more Doc's need to start getting good at is gimping , one reason shroomed got doc to such a big level was because of his gimps and punishes.
 

Hooooots

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Sup guys. I've been messing around with Doc lately and I notice there are a few things that I do with Doc that I'm not sure are really good or not.

I have a tendency to come down with dair a lot. I know it's rather disjointed, but would it be better to try to bair when coming down instead? Coming down from getting knocked high in the air of course. I also feel like I come down with dair to hit my opponent on the ground and then connect with an uptilt. Is this supposed to work? It seems like a nice little chain that I can do.

I really like using Docs uptilt in general, I'm just not really aware of all the situations that it proves to be useful.

I've looked at jab to uptilt in debug mode and it looks like it reaches pretty far in front of you, but the uptilt will push them away instead of up if you hit it at the beginning frames. Is there any real use to hit the opponent away at the trajectory?

Also lol I don't know how to pill in neutral. I tend to just run away and do a retreating pill and then slowly come back in while doing SH and FH pills, trying to close into my opponent, but I might be coming in to much when I do that. I often don't know when to go in vs an opponent that I hit a pill with and try to close the distance. Is there something I should be looking for?

Should nair ever be used in neutral? How about off-stage to try to gimp someone? Can dair be viable for edgeguarding since it reaches below the ledge? When should I use Doc's cape vs Falco's lasers and Peach's turnips? Should I cape retreating or towards my opponent? Do you guys use SH instant upair to hit opponents off the ground much? What do you do off of it if that happens? (vs fast fallers).

It's gonna be a while before I'm used to this character again lol.

I Like to come down with back airs and up airs , and an occasional down air if I'm close to the ground.

Pilling in neutral I believe is just throwing them out at every angle and just being annoying , I love to spam 1 gorund pill then jump forward and pill , then wavedash in on them and down smash , if they shield then I will grab . it's pretty free for the most part.

Nair should be used rarely in neutral , I like to throw it out when im close to my opponent or if my opponent is falling from a platform or is in the air. Using it for edgeguarding is very situational and there are better options.
 

Hooooots

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I'm going to try and be more active here , and I'll post a lot of effective tricks I've been using with doc. Doc is a tricky opponent when played right , and I feel liek hes exactly just that , a character with a lot of stuff to throw you off.
 

Zonak

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Up-B cancel's best application is using it OoS as a defensive option. Other than that, it doesn't really get you much since you can't follow up on it due to the 30 frames of landing lag. Regular up-b is already a really good OoS option and I've been applying it more in matches lately, especially against spacies. (I go for the cancel but I'm bad at doing it in the heat of the moment. I'm a beast at it in practice lol)

Doc is still relevant, and really just being slept on since Shroomed stopped using him. There's still room for optimization in the punish game and different ways that we can be approaching the neutral game.
 

Hooooots

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Up-B cancel's best application is using it OoS as a defensive option. Other than that, it doesn't really get you much since you can't follow up on it due to the 30 frames of landing lag. Regular up-b is already a really good OoS option and I've been applying it more in matches lately, especially against spacies. (I go for the cancel but I'm bad at doing it in the heat of the moment. I'm a beast at it in practice lol)

Doc is still relevant, and really just being slept on since Shroomed stopped using him. There's still room for optimization in the punish game and different ways that we can be approaching the neutral game.
As far as approaching in neutral , I am calling that reading moves and caping them is going to be huge for doc and boost him up in the tier list.

As far as the up b cancel , wheres the 30 frames of landing lag... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFU8oHODP2s

I also dislike how people say it is so difficult to use during a game but that goes for any move , I wouldn't doubt that westballz shine pressure is way harder then up b cancel... If people really want to show docs potential they need to stop being lazy and perfect up b cancel. Like practice it until it comes natural like wavedashing. I cant practice it atm the moment because I am resting hands , but when I'm up and running I sure will.

I feel like it has so many options, go to 1:04 in the video , his up b cancel lead to a gimp... Just imagine wavedashing around and up b canceling and mixing it in with other moves..
 

Zonak

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When you up-b and land on the ground (regardless of just landing or landing in special fall), you have to sit through the entire landing lag which is 30 frames. You can't just wavedash around and up-b cancel because you will always get punished. It's so laggy that you can just be punished on reaction. Up-B Cancel isn't what is going to completely change Doc (though it can improve him).

I'm also not a huge fan of cape in neutral. I do use it once in a while but it has so many cons that I reserve it for really hard reads or reflecting projectiles. It's a 35 frame move, with 3 frames of active hitboxes that do 0 knockback, and something like a 21 frame cooldown (you still have a reflect box but that won't do much against a physical hit). That's an awful move to commit to in a neutral situation where neither player has an advantage over the other.

I like to use wavedash jab/ftilt and ac uair in neutral. Basically, the way I look at neutral nowadays, is that I want to be more movement oriented. I don't really camp pills that much anymore except when I feel like it'll work better for me in that certain situation. (had to camp last night blechhh)
 

ChivalRuse

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Yeah based on the video it looks like about 30 frames (half a second). That's not too bad though, considering most tilts in the game are ~ 30 frames total.
 

Zonak

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Slayerville, NJ
Well, whiffed up-b cancel puts you at a 30 frame disadvantage whereas whiffed ftilt puts you at a 21 frame disadvantage. Another thing you need to consider is that f-tilt can threaten space while up-b cancel cannot.
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
There are a few other factors to consider: for example, f-tilt generally doesn't put the opponent in a position to be combo'd or tech chased. But up-b hits the opponent up and slightly away, forces them into tumble, and can lead to some nice platform tech chases.
 

Sir Bubbles

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 11, 2014
Messages
233
Location
East Brunswick, NJ
I legit can't stand all the hate Dr. Mario is getting right now. Once I become better and actually start winning stuff, I'm going to try to optimize things like Dr. Mario's technology and movement. While a lot of the things Schmoo has found are situational, I think Chivalrose has a point in which if we learn to use tech perfectly we can optimize the character to it's limits.
 
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Hooooots

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 17, 2015
Messages
27
I legit can't stand all the hate Dr. Mario is getting right now. Once I become better and actually start winning stuff, I'm going to try to optimize things like Dr. Mario's technology and movement. While a lot of the things Schmoo has found are situational, I think Chivalrose has a point in which if we learn to use tech perfectly we can optimize the character to it's limits.
Just because shroomed dropped him people think hes bad... It's so stupid. people always tend to go with what everyone else is saying...
 

#HBC | Mac

Nobody loves me
BRoomer
Joined
Dec 5, 2005
Messages
5,086
Location
Mass
ftilt combos way better than upbcancel since it at least leads to a tech chase where upB cancel leads to.... nothing

upb cancel is nowhere near as good as you guys are making it out to be. normal upB is just as good.

cape is a decent poke in neutral and when you're under pressure while in the air. if you're coming down from the air and a spacy wants to back air you a well timed cape can deflect the bair and let you get down safely. in some cases, this is your only option cuz air dodge will get you wrecked and dair/nair would be beat.

cape in neutral is pretty good at poking shield, esp vs characters that want to jump oos often and its good if you call an early aerial coming at you because then you can get percentage and be able to punish the aerial because you messed up their spacing or you can cc. cape is pretty good at messing with ppls spacing

but it is a large commitment and should be used safely. one thing about using cape is that if you land it and still get hit, it's unlikely that the person will follow up on that hit
 
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