Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Superw0rri0]

Read up on the guides posted here... they should be stickied

 

[Logz]

Read up on the guides posted here... they should be stickied

They are also a bit outdated, but whatever.

 

[Superw0rri0]

They are out dated but there is still a ton to learn from them.

 

[onionchowder]

vs Marth:
use pills to find openings, use your movement to deal with his range. Dthrow -> Usmash/Utilt/Uair is a really easy low/mid% combo. One trick I've found useful is to try and dash attack to clash with Marths' weak Fsmash hitbox and then Dsmash. Once you get in on him, try to stay close to him and keep the pressure on.

 

[Superw0rri0]

Here's the big problem with the marth match up. Marth's that dash dance a lot are hard to get in on since they practically control the match when they do that. Sure you can just throw pills I'm sure that'll work and I should actually try it the next time I play a dash dance happy marth. But a good marth will know how to slash away those pills.

One thing I like to do is to get close to them, back off and if they take the bait, I surprise them with a wave dash towards them into b-air followed by another b-air or f-tilt

 

[Cursed Yoma]

C&p from another site

as to not waste another topic *hopefully someone will check this again*

Https://www.YouTube.com/watch?v=TrfPnAtvf94

Me (doc) vs LDA (Peach) FoD

Https://www.YouTube.com/watch?v=YWA7lD3AllM

me (doc) vs LDA (Peach) Yoshi's



any tips? know these were over Netplay and friendlies so i can't just say i played 100% and not gonna say he did or didnt' cause i really don't know.



i noticed i ftilt alot, like spam it sometimes and get punished, esp like i'll miss one and try to take a step foward for another, and around 1:30 in the second vid i do something sorta stupid..



peach is above me on a platform wiht a turnip; first thing i did is good, he throws it down, i uptilt BUT HE REGRABS *>_<* so at that point i should have moved.. but i figured well he's either gonna a) throw it again or b) drop through the platform with something. both of which my uptilt should be *i think? prob depends on what attack he drop down with..*



about 3:20 in that vid.. i hit the shy guys cause i hate them *and they will sometimes cause lag over netplay* i was hoping my attack woul dfinish quicker, but it didnt'.. it was a kinda dumb move on my part cause i figured he'd either jump after me or just sit there *which he did neither.. again >_>*

then at the last stock you could tell i was kinda fishing for those ftilts; i wish i could have followed up that uptilt on toad, not sure what i could have done tho, uptilt again? which lookin back that might have been what i tried.. it's hard to tell , i did an up angled ftilt but i easily could have been trying turn around up tilt... can't say too much about that one..





random tid bits, i use capes, bairs and ftilt mostly to "control" my spacing. the one random down b on stage that last stock was sorta a "random" factor, hoping to catch him running in before the dash attack hit.. overall i see some shield habits, may not be too noticable from two vids, but i got a bad habit of shielding a turnip then jumping OOS and hitting it .

also, i hate peach's dash attack >_> always seems to catch me at the end of a roll



anyways; give me some tips if you can, i don't grab alot and i don't really dash dance much..

i find it really hard to get grabs w/ doc, his arms so short =/ and i always DD at the wrong 'spacing' i guess, leaving me open to dash attacks and such.. but if i'm far away and try dding it just invites Peach to turnip farm.. what to do? i feel this way about most characters w/ a projectile; it's kinda hard to get a good DD game going..


Think my internet got cut off while trying to post this.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

C&p from another site

as to not

me (doc) vs LDA (Peach) Yoshi's



any tips? know these were over Netplay and friendlies so i can't just say i played 100% and not gonna say he did or didnt' cause i really don't know.



i noticed i ftilt alot, like spam it sometimes and get punished, esp like i'll miss one and try to take a step foward for another, and around 1:30 in the second vid i do something sorta stupid..



peach is above me on a platform wiht a turnip; first thing i did is good, he throws it down, i uptilt BUT HE REGRABS *>_<* so at that point i should have moved.. but i figured well he's either gonna a) throw it again or b) drop through the platform with something. both of which my uptilt should be *i think? prob depends on what attack he drop down with..*



about 3:20 in that vid.. i hit the shy guys cause i hate them *and they will sometimes cause lag over netplay* i was hoping my attack woul dfinish quicker, but it didnt'.. it was a kinda dumb move on my part cause i figured he'd either jump after me or just sit there *which he did neither.. again >_>*

then at the last stock you could tell i was kinda fishing for those ftilts; i wish i could have followed up that uptilt on toad, not sure what i could have done tho, uptilt again? which lookin back that might have been what i tried.. it's hard to tell , i did an up angled ftilt but i easily could have been trying turn around up tilt... can't say too much about that one..





random tid bits, i use capes, bairs and ftilt mostly to "control" my spacing. the one random down b on stage that last stock was sorta a "random" factor, hoping to catch him running in before the dash attack hit.. overall i see some shield habits, may not be too noticable from two vids, but i got a bad habit of shielding a turnip then jumping OOS and hitting it .

also, i hate peach's dash attack >_> always seems to catch me at the end of a roll



anyways; give me some tips if you can, i don't grab alot and i don't really dash dance much..

i find it really hard to get grabs w/ doc, his arms so short =/ and i always DD at the wrong 'spacing' i guess, leaving me open to dash attacks and such.. but if i'm far away and try dding it just invites Peach to turnip farm.. what to do? i feel this way about most characters w/ a projectile; it's kinda hard to get a good DD game going..


Think my internet got cut off while trying to post this.

I've just started playing Doc, and you seem pretty good.

One thing that you need to keep in mind is your spacing and your movement options. Wavedashing more will certainly help your movement options, and more pills will keep your spacing.

Docs Bair and Nair are your best friend when shffld. Don't spam fair because the ending lag is to punishing, especially when it isn't shffld. You seem to keep using fair and sometimes you don't l-cancel it, which can get punishing.

You should try dash dancing more, it will really help vary up your movements and you'll be less predictable. Try to short hop more too.

With peach's dash attack, try to read your opponent and always be on your toes. If you sheild her dash attack you can grab her using the sheild grab.

Other than that, your combo game is surprisingly good and you parried a lot of Peach's attacks. You should also try grabbing more, because Doc can chain grab many characters, especially spacies. If there's anything I missed or if I'm incorrect, feel free to correct me. I started playing competitive two months ago, so any input would be nice.

 

[Superw0rri0]

With peach's dash attack, try to read your opponent and always be on your toes. If you sheild her dash attack you can grab her using the sheild grab..

to build on this you should try fade away fairs.... that should get her to respect you

 

[RoA_Zam]

C&p from another site

as to not waste another topic *hopefully someone will check this again*

any tips? know these were over Netplay and friendlies so i can't just say i played 100% and not gonna say he did or didnt' cause i really don't know.

Man if you find it hard to get grabs on a peach, I think there's a problem then haha. That peach in specific seemed to use dash attacks a lot more than i'd recommend, and any time peach uses one, you have a small window after you shield it that you can grab before peach gets a grab herself or a d-smash.

also you seem to be throwing out a lot of random capes and smashes. When You play doc, especially against higher level players, you want to minimize these easily punishable moves. Capes are good for spacing, but the only times you want to use it on the ground are when you're reflecting a recovery/projectile, or when its the only option to avoid being hit by an attack.

You should also look towards using pills more effectively if you know your opponent will shield them or get hit by them constantly. Pills are extremely important in keeping out approaching opponents and also for your own approaching, full-jump reverse pill wavelands are my best friend when I play haha.

You're not too bad, but you've just got a few bad habits to kick it seems.

 

[Max?]

I use Fox vs. Peach now, it's infinitely easier in every single way possible and not frustrating. That's how I'd fight her with Doc.

 

[Superw0rri0]

I use Fox vs. Peach now, it's infinitely easier in every single way possible and not frustrating. That's how I'd fight her with Doc.

lol.... isn't fox your answer to everything now

 

[RoA_Zam]

Are there any matchups where It'd be much smarter to just switch from doc to another character?

I seem to have a hard time getting in on shiek and ganon players for example. And occasionally falco's (though I can gimp if I need to play like a loser to come back from a deficit).

I want to use Doc as much as possible but I know that there are going to be situations that are helpless unless I switch. Suggestions?

 

[Cursed Yoma]

"also you seem to be throwing out a lot of random capes and smashes. When You play doc, especially against higher level players, you want to minimize these easily punishable moves. Capes are good for spacing, but the only times you want to use it on the ground are when you're reflecting a recovery/projectile, or when its the only option to avoid being hit by an attack."

yeah i do that alot when i expect them to approach/pressure me . I've been told i'm very stationary. and i can see that.
and i have played a few "higher level" players *higher than myself* and yeah, i get punished a good bit for dumb stuff.
and when i'm retreating FH Pill WL is one of the big things i do, but it's not that useful on smaller stages like the ones in the videos.

"Are there any matchups where It'd be much smarter to just switch from doc to another character?"

probably 90% of them? >_> theoritically speaking i don't see why you have an adv over fox.

but my fox isn't that good so i'll just stick with doc..



EDIT: i read the above quote wrong and thought he said switch from doc to FOX specifically. but other than that it's kinda personal preference imo. If you know how matchups and stuff work then it's really your choice.



i usually have a hard time getting up from the ledge against people; too much of a ledge hopper, usually going for dairs and if they simply get out of the way of it i get punished. i try to mix it up but alot of times there's just not alot i can do to get back on safely.
this is just a general thing, i could go into specifics but it's mostly me not knowing the best options

 

[Superw0rri0]

Are there any matchups where It'd be much smarter to just switch from doc to another character?

I seem to have a hard time getting in on shiek and ganon players for example. And occasionally falco's (though I can gimp if I need to play like a loser to come back from a deficit).

I want to use Doc as much as possible but I know that there are going to be situations that are helpless unless I switch. Suggestions?

Technically you should play any high tier over doc in any match up but only lame people do that. The Doc vs Ganon matchup is in Doc's favor btw... you just gotta be patient or know how to control the match. The Sheik match up is tough but it is doable... you have a chain grab on her and as long as you don't get caught out of position and don't get grabbed you should be fine or else you're going to get gimped off stage.

 

[RoA_Zam]

Technically you should play any high tier over doc in any match up but only lame people do that. The Doc vs Ganon matchup is in Doc's favor btw... you just gotta be patient or know how to control the match. The Sheik match up is tough but it is doable... you have a chain grab on her and as long as you don't get caught out of position and don't get grabbed you should be fine or else you're going to get gimped off stage.

only losers don't like playing doc over a high tier. And it's weird. I feel absolutely comfortable against marth, fox, falco, CF, peach, etc top tiers except sheik, mostly because there are hardly any close to me for practice.

If I don't expect to have someone who regularly plays sheik + is not garbage, to play against, would it be easier to just invest in a character like puff that has a positive matchup in that regard? (I used to play falco and puff, but my falco is hopeless)

 

[Max?]

It's just different levels of play. The better you and your opponents get, the weaker Doc becomes over time. As you invest more time into the game, it becomes more about just winning and not pride, why limit yourself to a character just on pride alone?

 

[Superw0rri0]

To me it's not pride.... it's because Doc fits my playstyle and I feel really really comfortable playing him. I've tried learning sheik, marth, and even falco. I've seriously rethought my decision about maining Doc and it just never went well. Heck, I've won tourney matches with pichu as a serious pick and whenever I played the other 3 in tournament I lost.

And yes it is different levels of play... experienced players know Doc's weaknesses and know how to abuse them. As Doc players we should know our weaknesses better than anyone else and learn how to use those weaknesses in our favor or at least learn how to not let them get in the way. I know how terrible Doc is against Marth but I've played Marth so many times I know how to get around those disadvantages and win... I'm not scared to pick Doc against a Marth.

The beautiful thing about this game is that you can play any playstyle and chances are it'll be vialbe. Amsa beat M2K at KoC4, look at how far Dujan took Doc (or however you spell his name), who btw is Shroomed for the new guys who don't know, or look at how good Cosmo is (was) with Zelda. Back in the day people thought Fox wasn't good... look at him now. I don't care if the character I play is top tier or bottom tier... I play Toon Link in PM with a secondary ZSS and Ganon, I want to main Samus in 64... as long as that character fits the way that I play and I can play it well, then I will do everything I can to win.

This was just on the Smash sub reddit recently: (for those who don't know much about 64, samus is rated the lowest on the tier list)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYjwptqwJt4&list=PLB864EC8D9EC14FBD&index=8

 

[Mr.Lemon]

There really aren't any matches for doc that put him at so much of a disadvantage that you have to switch characters. As long as you know the match up you're all set

 

[ElloEddy]

well sup guys i haven't been on here in a while but i was hoping to get some more doc tips...... been maining him for 6 months now

wish i had better quality vids, but this is all i have for now im Sled/$led btw or MoneyLED

tanks for OTG for giving me tips here and there and psychMD

just some friendless with smokeyblunts ( a solid tristate fox/many secondaries. one of the better up and coming players ),

ill try to get some stream matches soon at nebs for critque/help (ps ignore the FB sounds thats the vid lol)

vs fox

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOLX14I-IZg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAybM7U9eek

vs peach
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p_qB_BNSc0

 

[Kidney Thief]

I've been winning pretty consistently (2/3 of the time) against my cousin's Doc with my Young Link, but I don't know his character much, what tips can I give to him so that he can catch up to me? So far we can wavedash, short hop, L-cancel half the time, shield grab, tech to get up and a few other things so I'm looking for tips for around that level of play to give to him.

 

[Superw0rri0]

All i can say is keep practicing and always try to look at yourselves too see if you're making the right decisions. Also tell him to check out the match up guide on this forum. That should help a bit and it will help a lot once he starts applying it.... Just keep playing more and more and you guys will keep getting better. Don't play to win, play to learn. Play around, try new things, see what works and what doesn't, and most of all have fun

 

[Mr.Lemon]

Anyone good at getting consistent perfect tornados (PTP)? Boss explain your godlike method

 

[Max?]

Ever play FF8? You could boost the damage of summons in that game by mashing the square button in random windows of time, and if you messed up you had to start all over. Essentially, it was great practice for PTP because you had to react to when the window was open, and get as many presses as possible before the short window closed.

IMO ptp isn't that hard, just requires some practice.

 

[Superw0rri0]

Anyone good at getting consistent perfect tornados (PTP)? Boss explain your godlike method

The way I do it is by lifting my hand off the controller while keeping my thumb on the b button and isntead of pressing the b button with my thumb i shake my wrist.... it's faster since you can shake your wrist faster than you can move your thumb

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

wow that's cool, didnt think you were gonna screenshot it.

 

[Monkley6]

Anyone good at getting consistent perfect tornados (PTP)? Boss explain your godlike method

I've always been amazed at Boss's b-button skills... I wish there was some secret but I'm guessing it's just practice, a muscle memory sort of thing. One that I don't have...

Edit: While I'm here, I'm looking for some matchup advice for Sheik. I read what Dogy's MU thread had to say on it, but anything will help. I've gotten a few matches against some other of the high tiers except Sheik, so I'm hoping to be prepared.
Some insight into stages with her would be cool too if anyone has any input.

 

[Mr.Lemon]

I've always been amazed at Boss's b-button skills... I wish there was some secret but I'm guessing it's just practice, a muscle memory sort of thing. One that I don't have...

Edit: While I'm here, I'm looking for some matchup advice for Sheik. I read what Dogy's MU thread had to say on it, but anything will help. I've gotten a few matches against some other of the high tiers except Sheik, so I'm hoping to be prepared.
Some insight into stages with her would be cool too if anyone has any input.

Against Sheik you have to play it safe, or else you'll get punished hard:
1. Stay on the ground
2. Pill a ton (this creates openings)
3. Don't approach unless there is an opening, and if so use n.air
5. Chaingrab her
6. Grab the edge > b.air her or grab edge > stand up f.smash her

 

[Monkley6]

Against Sheik you have to play it safe, or else you'll get punished hard:
1. Stay on the ground
2. Pill a ton (this creates openings)
3. Don't approach unless there is an opening, and if so use n.air
5. Chaingrab her
6. Grab the edge > b.air her or grab edge > stand up f.smash her

Thanks, I'm hoping not get shut down by anyone with thumbs that picks Sheik. I'll definitely keep that stuff in mind.
Chaingrab: D-throw all the way, or do you need to uthrow at real low percents?

 

[Mr.Lemon]

Thanks, I'm hoping not get shut down by anyone with thumbs that picks Sheik. I'll definitely keep that stuff in mind.
Chaingrab: D-throw all the way, or do you need to uthrow at real low percents?

d.throw from 0%-40%ish then you can chain u.airs. Smashmac's guide on here goes into better detail

 

[Max?]

- You can CC a bunch of Sheik's stuff, especially at lower %'s.
- Mix up your recovery a lot, be careful about using pills while you are recovering back to the stage as she can just bair right through them and hit you.
- CG 0-40% goes for longer if they DI hard left or right after the throw, with no DI you can go for utilt/uair to setup a grab or go for a combo. You can also dthrow -> fsmash at the end of the CG.
- Throw a lot of pills, but be weary of doing them at close range.
- Try not to jump a lot in neutral unless you need to, her tilts are pretty good.
- Cape is good, turning her around randomly in conjunction with pills can mess with her and create openings. It's especially good vs. shino-stalling. If you DD right out of her ledgehop fair range you can throw out capes anticipating her getting up from the ledge and mess with her, giving you a free punish.
- She's a great weight for comboing, learn that combo tree well.

Probably more to write, but I can't think of anything else right now.

 

[Cursed Yoma]

try and get them with the Cape glitch :O *not really but it's cool when it happens* (for those who don't know what i mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfNfBEksgFg )

i was just playing a pretty decent sheik a few minutes ago but i can't really give too much advice since i don't feel i'm really good enough to. i won most of the matches and i gotta save as long as you avoid her grabs i don't really find this too bad. but grab usually leads to dthrow ftilt fair and that's like alot of damage you don't want + sets up for edgegaurds which sheik is pretty good at
like Max said; be careful throwing pills esp while recovering. not only will bair eat if she can straight up dodge it and upair/fair sometimes *tho the fair is tricky, but i think if she hits you like right as you throw a pill it eats your pill too.. or atleast trades (once again i'm not 100% sure. if anyone can confirm/deny it'd be nice)*

i really am not a chain grabber. i can't do them and don't really "want" to do them in a way. i mostly go for like upthrow up tilt /up air juggles. i'm not even sure "how" to chain grab. i've been readin this thread from the beginnign and i'm about half way through. once i read everything i'll probably start posting here more. Esp since i feel like i'm starting to improve again. i finally took the advice from this thread and stopped approaching from the air so much and i'm becoming more focused on ground game and it's helping out alot.
people who normally 4 stock me are only 2 stocking me now ^_^.

also; is it odd that i like fighting Falcos on FD and i don't want to take Marth to FD? i feel platforms help me vs marth casue they always wanna hit you through a platform and if you can bait that it helps.. but on FD there is nothing like that. even if you bait a fsmash you gotta find a way to get in and hit him afterwards *that sword is long ~_~*

 

[Monkley6]

Sweet, that gives me plenty of information to start with. Now to put it into practice...

 

[St. Viers]

Some sheik-specific stuff:
*Your f-tilt actually is a really good option against shiek, as it pushes her away while keeping you outta her CC->stuff range
*If you shield a d-smash, you can short hop oos (slightly backwards) and punish her for trying to keep pressure up with another d-smash, f-tilt, up-tilt, or jab. If you jump up, wavedash forward, or jump forward you'll get hit.
*You can shield DI her jabs to get very far away from the first hit, making it hard for her to mix-up into grabs.
*If you clink with her off a dash attack or something, just up-B (or up B cancel if you're fancy/on FD). While your jabs come out at the same time, the upB is just as fast and has invincibility on start-up (iirc)

 

[Superw0rri0]

Some sheik-specific stuff:
*Your f-tilt actually is a really good option against shiek, as it pushes her away while keeping you outta her CC->stuff range
*If you shield a d-smash, you can short hop oos (slightly backwards) and punish her for trying to keep pressure up with another d-smash, f-tilt, up-tilt, or jab. If you jump up, wavedash forward, or jump forward you'll get hit.
*You can shield DI her jabs to get very far away from the first hit, making it hard for her to mix-up into grabs.
*If you clink with her off a dash attack or something, just up-B (or up B cancel if you're fancy/on FD). While your jabs come out at the same time, the upB is just as fast and has invincibility on start-up (iirc)

This is some good stuff i haven't heard before....

brownie points for you!!!!

 

[Marilink]

That Clink into Up-B cancel option is really great. I feel like you could look for that against a lot of characters. Great suggestion!

 

[Cursed Yoma]

i got a set from netplay recorded that i feel i did pretty decent.
http://www.twitch.tv/tichinde925/b/571826471

from about 57 minutes to 1:09:00. i feel i'm slowly startign to play better

 

[VGmasta]

i got a set from netplay recorded that i feel i did pretty decent.
http://www.twitch.tv/tichinde925/b/571826471

from about 57 minutes to 1:09:00. i feel i'm slowly startign to play better

I was gonna offer advice and tips on this, but it comes up too laggy on my computer to critique.

 

[BCllWX]

Anyone good at getting consistent perfect tornados (PTP)? Boss explain your godlike method

Not a pro or anything (especially since I basically learned how to play Doc from you LOL)

But I've never had any problems with mashing, but I have done a lot of things that require hand exercise such as playing instruments. General hand flexibility and being comfortable pressing it that fast is a legitimate thing.

Hand strengtheners are always helpful too!

 

[JipC]

I use Fox vs. Peach now, it's infinitely easier in every single way possible and not frustrating. That's how I'd fight her with Doc.

Fox in general makes everything in this game "infinitely easier in every single way possible"

 

[Max?]

Recent footage of me playing. Need to re-evaluate the Falco Matchup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I9povq7u8s&list=UUwdVytA5FmjUEUBbc28h9QA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6xc4T2jVe8&list=UUwdVytA5FmjUEUBbc28h9QA