Kidney Thief
Smash Journeyman
I think you played much better against Dj Nintendo than against G$ even without taking matchups in consideration
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!
- Thread starter otg
- Start date
Sir Bubbles
Smash Journeyman
Good stuff in the set against DJ Nintendo. You're serious inspiration after Shroomed reserved Doc as a secondary.Recent footage of me playing. Need to re-evaluate the Falco Matchup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I9povq7u8s&list=UUwdVytA5FmjUEUBbc28h9QA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6xc4T2jVe8&list=UUwdVytA5FmjUEUBbc28h9QA
Max?
Smash Champion
A good buddy of mine watched my sets and said I need to work on my edgeguards. I've beaten G in the past, I know I can do it again
VGmasta
Smash Lord
Smooth stuff, OTG!Recent footage of me playing. Need to re-evaluate the Falco Matchup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I9povq7u8s&list=UUwdVytA5FmjUEUBbc28h9QA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6xc4T2jVe8&list=UUwdVytA5FmjUEUBbc28h9QA
Falco (Porkchops and Rula) have been killing me. I'd rather fight Fox at this point. Falco's moveset vs Doc is just ******** good.
And don't you hate those long-ranged Up-B Fox recoveries that just BARELY make stage as you try edgehoging with ledgerolls? That and the accidental f-throws toward center stage (Final D in particular)
RDO
Smash Rookie
Deleted!!!!!
Last edited:
Max?
Smash Champion
Cursed Yoma
Smash Journeyman
nice first game, you got kinda risky trying to hit his up b, should have just fell off naired or run off cape or something. you still took the match. also gotta give hax props for that recovery; did you actually cape? it's hard to tell but it looks like he did a down angle and you caped him up =/
second match, wow... you once again went risky w/ his up b when there were safer options.
first half of the third match was really choppy but the last two stocks played out pretty well. you almost took it .
is it me or does something go wrong when they put the vids on youtube? i've watched the stream a few times and dont' remember it being so choppy like that..
you're way better than me so i can't really offer any "good" advice. just pointing out the two obvious things that i'm sure you already know.
second match, wow... you once again went risky w/ his up b when there were safer options.
first half of the third match was really choppy but the last two stocks played out pretty well. you almost took it .
is it me or does something go wrong when they put the vids on youtube? i've watched the stream a few times and dont' remember it being so choppy like that..
you're way better than me so i can't really offer any "good" advice. just pointing out the two obvious things that i'm sure you already know.
VGmasta
Smash Lord
First of all, good stuff on taking a match of Hax$.
I'm mostly posting on here because I miss it. This thread isn't as hype as it was 4 or 5 years ago. :-/
You landed a surprising amount of upsmashes out of shield. I didn't expect them to work that much. And you already got a good idea on how to zone Fox and bait/manipulate him into getting grabbed.
Like your other recent vids, edgeguarding was probably where you needed the most work. I kinda agree with what Yoma said about finding something safer to cover those long-ranged Up-B recoveries. I can see why you went for the deep offstage b-air though, and it could have work. Hell, most of us seen it work for that one guy that had everything else work for him all the time.
The main thing about second match is that Hax$ seemed a bit too dominate on successful approaching than he did on any other match. I know it's Fox, and Fox is bound to win approaches if he's got any kinda of adaptation. I think maybe you coulda used more defensive tacts (like up-B out of shield or f-tilt) against some of his approaches to calm Hax$ down.
And that part where Hax$ was at high percent and he Up-B straight upward:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwVrLcV3RgM&t=6m25s
The cape was good start, I felt like you shoulda just did a f-tilt or d-smash instead of that up-air.
And yeah, that third match was difficult on the eyes. I overheard the commentator say something about the frame rate of the vid.
I just wanna know why the Fountain of Dreams counterpick? I assume Final D was off the market at that point. I would have done something more neutral like Yoshi Story or Poke Stadium.
I'm mostly posting on here because I miss it. This thread isn't as hype as it was 4 or 5 years ago. :-/
You landed a surprising amount of upsmashes out of shield. I didn't expect them to work that much. And you already got a good idea on how to zone Fox and bait/manipulate him into getting grabbed.
Like your other recent vids, edgeguarding was probably where you needed the most work. I kinda agree with what Yoma said about finding something safer to cover those long-ranged Up-B recoveries. I can see why you went for the deep offstage b-air though, and it could have work. Hell, most of us seen it work for that one guy that had everything else work for him all the time.
The main thing about second match is that Hax$ seemed a bit too dominate on successful approaching than he did on any other match. I know it's Fox, and Fox is bound to win approaches if he's got any kinda of adaptation. I think maybe you coulda used more defensive tacts (like up-B out of shield or f-tilt) against some of his approaches to calm Hax$ down.
And that part where Hax$ was at high percent and he Up-B straight upward:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwVrLcV3RgM&t=6m25s
The cape was good start, I felt like you shoulda just did a f-tilt or d-smash instead of that up-air.
And yeah, that third match was difficult on the eyes. I overheard the commentator say something about the frame rate of the vid.
I just wanna know why the Fountain of Dreams counterpick? I assume Final D was off the market at that point. I would have done something more neutral like Yoshi Story or Poke Stadium.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbJ56VP7_1o
I have yet to ever recreate or witness a recreation of the last stock
bair is life
I have yet to ever recreate or witness a recreation of the last stock
bair is life
Last edited:
DeepDish
Smash Apprentice
Not trying to be rude, but that's standard Doc stuff. I do that quite often. Back air is soo good though <3 Bair is love.
Max?
Smash Champion
More vids of me playing, 3 different sets here (vs. Young, Fiya and Vanz):
http://www.twitch.tv/freesaltines/b/596488222
As for vs. Hax, I chose FoD as I know he doesn't like it, and it's a decent stage for me. I normally don't mind other stages, but I figured I'd try the stage I know he hates.
http://www.twitch.tv/freesaltines/b/596488222
As for vs. Hax, I chose FoD as I know he doesn't like it, and it's a decent stage for me. I normally don't mind other stages, but I figured I'd try the stage I know he hates.
Well obviously, I gimp all the time with bair
But I mean coming back and instantly gimping them right when they respawn is pretty impressive
Cursed Yoma
Smash Journeyman
does hax still not like FoD/ i thought that was just sorta the "anti-falcon" stage for most people?
like i always hear it's a bad stage for falcon, but i can see it helping fox maybe a little more than say battlefield *atleast if he gets hit "under" the stage he still has a chance to come back*
like i always hear it's a bad stage for falcon, but i can see it helping fox maybe a little more than say battlefield *atleast if he gets hit "under" the stage he still has a chance to come back*
Max?
Smash Champion
It's def a weaker Falcon stage. Most space animals I know dislike it, and Hax has only begun to practice and play on stage since playing Fox. I personally like the stage, and CP spacies there unless I'm feeling something else. Most of my CP choices are based on my feelings at the moment.
Thanks for your feedback earlier btw, meant to comment on it
Edit:
This might be as good a time as any to talk about stages. Where would you guys have gone against Hax? What stages do you like as cps/bans/striking vs. certain matchups? I have my own opinions and thoughts on the matter, but I'm sort of curious as to what you guys think.
I usually like bigger stages and Stadium has to be one of my favorite levels even against characters who "beat" Doc there (spacies). How about for characters like Peach/Sheik/Climbers, where there may not be a clear answer?
Last edited:
DeepDish
Smash Apprentice
You'd be surprised how many fast fallers are super careless for at least one stock and at the edge against Doctor Mario. Show the Doc some more respect Fox/Falco/Falcon!
You're definitely a better Doc Mar player than I or probably anyone else looking at this thread, but here's my opinion:
Doc doesn't really have a disadvantageous stage to play on, as I'm sure you know. Personally, my least favourite stage to play on with Doc in general is Battlefield.
You can get some pill mixups on FoD's platforms along with the fact that Doc can actually short hop up air throw platforms at certain heights. I really like the way the platforms are spaced out from each other on Dream Land for the pill game. Unless you're playing against Samus/Jiggs/Peach, I find Dream Land to be a solid stage for Doc, particularly against Marth.
On Yoshi's it's fun to use the slanted edges of the stage for pill mixups on characters recovering. I find it really catches them off guard. Also if you want to be a little risky and sneaky, try short hop pilling the sloped ledge facing it while someone tries to approach you. I discovered this a few days ago, and it's SUPER situational, but on the water transformation for Pokemon Stadium, if you throw a pill at a water spouts at a certain angle it bounces off them at a super weird angle. I haven't used this more than maybe twice so far in an actual match, but it's hilarious when you catch someone off guard with it.
I think you picked the best stage for a "Hax CP" honestly. FoD seems to be his least comfortable stage.
For matchups though here's my preference for each of the top 6 characters minus Peach and ICs, plus Samus. I play against some super good Samus players in my region, but there are absolutely no good Peach players or Ice Climbers
I'm sure it's obvious as to why these are my preferences, but I'd be happy to explain if anyone wants.Fox: FD, FoD, Dream Land, Yoshi's, PS, Battlefield
Falco: FD, FoD, Dream Land, PS, Yoshi's, Battlefield
Sheik: PS, FD, Yoshi's, Dream Land, Battlefield, FoD
Jiggs: PS, FD, Yoshi's, Battlefield, FoD, Dream Land
Marth: Dream Land, PS, Yoshi's, Battlefield, FoD, FD
Falcon: FoD, Yoshi's, Battlefield, Dream Land, PS, FD
Samus: PS, FD, Yoshi's, FoD, Battlefield, Dream Land
Last edited:
Max?
Smash Champion
Deepdish, thanks for the feedback. I've started abusing pills on weird slants as well, it's made me like Yoshi's a lot more fun for me.
JipC, I think Doc's role depends on his teammate. He can stock tank, KO, gimp/edgeguard very well, so I would play to his strengths. If I'm teaming with someone faster/more aggressive then me, I'll try to stay back and cover them to make sure they don't get bopped. Dsmash/dair/bair are good fast crowd control moves, pills control space (just be sure to communicate to your teammate when you intend on throwing them). If possible, I'm a big fan of devolving the situation into two 1v1's and getting the other person off me/KOing them so I can turn it into a 2v1 vs. the other teammate. Doc can also rack up a lot of damage if the other person grabs (usmash won't break grab until high %) or KO (fsmash/fair... mostly fsmash). If you're forced to recover and it looks like it might be tough to get back, consider KOing yourself as it's best to get back into the fray rather than let your teammate get 2v1ed, and Doc's recovery is slow/bad.
That's all I can think of off the top of my head
JipC, I think Doc's role depends on his teammate. He can stock tank, KO, gimp/edgeguard very well, so I would play to his strengths. If I'm teaming with someone faster/more aggressive then me, I'll try to stay back and cover them to make sure they don't get bopped. Dsmash/dair/bair are good fast crowd control moves, pills control space (just be sure to communicate to your teammate when you intend on throwing them). If possible, I'm a big fan of devolving the situation into two 1v1's and getting the other person off me/KOing them so I can turn it into a 2v1 vs. the other teammate. Doc can also rack up a lot of damage if the other person grabs (usmash won't break grab until high %) or KO (fsmash/fair... mostly fsmash). If you're forced to recover and it looks like it might be tough to get back, consider KOing yourself as it's best to get back into the fray rather than let your teammate get 2v1ed, and Doc's recovery is slow/bad.
That's all I can think of off the top of my head
Last edited:
VGmasta
Smash Lord
You'd rather play vs Falco/Fox at DreamLand than Battlefield?! Why?For matchups though here's my preference for each of the top 6 characters minus Peach and ICs, plus Samus. I play against some super good Samus players in my region, but there are absolutely no good Peach players or Ice Climbers
Fox: FD, FoD, Dream Land, Yoshi's, PS, Battlefield
Falco: FD, FoD, Dream Land, PS, Yoshi's, Battlefield
Sheik: PS, FD, Yoshi's, Dream Land, Battlefield, FoD
Jiggs: PS, FD, Yoshi's, Battlefield, FoD, Dream Land
Marth: Dream Land, PS, Yoshi's, Battlefield, FoD, FD
Falcon: FoD, Yoshi's, Battlefield, Dream Land, PS, FD
Samus: PS, FD, Yoshi's, FoD, Battlefield, Dream Land
Why is Final D is your last resort vs Marth and Falcon?!
And why give Samus Poke Stadium over Final D?
DeepDish
Smash Apprentice
Fox/Falco on DL because it feels easier to abuse chain grabs because of the platforms, and I'm just generally really comfortable on that stage. I really don't like how the 3 platforms are spaced from each other for Doc on Battlefield.
A good Falcon gets to apply a TON of pressure to Doc on FD. His neutral airs take care of the pills and the pressure is really hard to deal with if the player is aggressive.
It's way more reasonable to get a kill on PS off the top than FD with dat fist. I'm guessing you're thinking about her missile game with the neutral transformation, but honestly I don't think Doc has a problem with that.
Last edited:
Max?
Smash Champion
Vs Spacies on DL is good if they don't camp you. If they do it is def tougher than smaller neutrals.
Falcon on FD is a playstyle thing. If you can land your combos and get your grabs, you should beat Falcon there. If not, he's gonna run all over you.
Vs. Samus I don't think any stage is bad persay, but I would def avoid Dreamland. Everything else is personal preference imo
Falcon on FD is a playstyle thing. If you can land your combos and get your grabs, you should beat Falcon there. If not, he's gonna run all over you.
Vs. Samus I don't think any stage is bad persay, but I would def avoid Dreamland. Everything else is personal preference imo
VGmasta
Smash Lord
The spacies that abuse the platforms won't EVER fight me on DreamLand as long as Battlefield is an option. And they have better recovery options at DreamLand than they do on Battlefield.
And what about vs Marth? Fighting Marth on FoD is the worst match ever! I wouldn't pick Final D lastly vs Marth.
I still would not go to Final Destination vs Falcon last. A good Falcon can apply a TON of pressure on all the other neutral stages anyway. And at least you can string chaingrabs and combos a bit longer without the hindrance of random transformations on Poke Stadium or shifting platforms on FoD. Also a bit easier to edgeguard Falcon on Final D than any other stage.
DeepDish
Smash Apprentice
I've honestly never even tried to chaingrab Falcon. Didn't know that was an option.
And I don't have trouble vs. Marth on FoD I guess. You're probably right about FD being better for the matchup though.
Superw0rri0
Smash Ace
Hey everyone! Been MIA for 5 months due to work and stuff but I'm back! Did I miss anything?
VGmasta
Smash Lord
Not much. OTG posted some matches he's had in the last couple months vs DJ Nintendo, GMoney, Vanz, and some other people.
I'm not sure if you saw Shroomed vs Dart and Leffen from The Big House 4.
I'm not sure if you saw Shroomed vs Dart and Leffen from The Big House 4.
Superw0rri0
Smash Ace
Naw didn't see shroomed's matches... vods are up? I'm assuming he played Doc so that kind of surprises me... not for leffen though... he wrecked leffen with Doc at apex 2013 I think so no surprise if he went Doc there
You got any matches on vod VGMasta?
Still gotta check out OTGs matches
I may or may not be going to Mayhem tomorrow so hopefully I can get something there. Also i'm curious to see how well i'm going to do considering I haven't played for 5 months... been getting my fingers back in Melee form all week but not as good as I used to be... need to play with actual people :/
Last edited:
VGmasta
Smash Lord
Yeah the vids are on youtube. Shroomed started off his set vs Dart as Sheik. He got beat round 1 and went Doc the other two rounds. The match was down to the wire, but ended in Shroomed's favor.
I only have a couple of matches from two months ago, but help yourself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fME-pFy3Jk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGxjS6jOmT4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PdgbojJck4
The Falco's down here are giving me tons a trouble now
I only have a couple of matches from two months ago, but help yourself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fME-pFy3Jk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGxjS6jOmT4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PdgbojJck4
The Falco's down here are giving me tons a trouble now
Why is DL so far back for Falcon? And do you have any tips for taking advantage of the PS transformations as Doc?
schmooblidon
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2014
- Messages
- 496
Pills pills pills. There are so many different angled surfaces on PS that let you bounce pills in weird directions, like throwing one above/under your opponent and letting it bounce back and hit them. Fire transformation has a bunch of weird angles on either side of the tree wall, if your on the left side you can full hop pill over it and bounce it on the little upward slope and it will bounce pretty much horizontally towards the wall. Water transformation has angles underneath the windmill on the wooden bridge, bouncing one on either side will make it go horizontally or vertically depending on which way you throw it. Earth transformation has a couple little bumps on the ground. Rock transformation is just madness, walls and angles everywhere. There are more tiny bumps and edges on all of them which will alter the trajectory.
Cape is decent at hitting through fire transformation walls like under the branch. On the ledge on the cliff you can do a <100% getup attack and you will fall back to the ledge automatically. If you do it instantly and fast fall, there are only 2 frames you are tangible (not that great really).
VGmasta
Smash Lord
I wouldn't pick DreamLand vs Falcon immediately. The higher platforms give Falcon a better chance at escaping Doc's pressure/combos and the platfroms can assist Falcon's ability to escape edgeguarding time recovering on DreamLand than something like Poke Stadium and obviously Final D.
Superw0rri0
Smash Ace
And lets not get started on his column combo game on that stage
I know this all too wellThe Falco's down here are giving me tons a trouble now
Cursed Yoma
Smash Journeyman
On mobile so I'll keep it short.
Overall for stages I don't like playing on Yoshi unless I'm fairly sure I'll win. Just the small blast zones and sides can make it hard to live long or recover.
I usually tend to go dreamland/FD against marths. Spacies either ps/bf. Or sometimes dreamland depending
Falcon usually bf or PS. Sometimes FD or dreamland (makes it slightly harder for him to chain/kill with uairs)/
Sheik I dunno every stage seems in her favor but probably bf or maybe FD depending. Last time I took one to DL I could not get a kill tho in a way its my fault
Anyone else I usually go whatever i feel suits me more or hinders my opponent
Overall for stages I don't like playing on Yoshi unless I'm fairly sure I'll win. Just the small blast zones and sides can make it hard to live long or recover.
I usually tend to go dreamland/FD against marths. Spacies either ps/bf. Or sometimes dreamland depending
Falcon usually bf or PS. Sometimes FD or dreamland (makes it slightly harder for him to chain/kill with uairs)/
Sheik I dunno every stage seems in her favor but probably bf or maybe FD depending. Last time I took one to DL I could not get a kill tho in a way its my fault
Anyone else I usually go whatever i feel suits me more or hinders my opponent
Mr.Lemon
Smash Journeyman
What do you think of caping Fox/Falco's b.air? I noticed you did it at 1:30, I've been doing it recently and I found it's a great way out of that kind of pressure situation.
You could've definitely won game 3! I think you just got too aggressive. A lot of you oos options were WD in to attack & you just got shined for it. I do this a ton too when I just want the win so I run in and throw out random n.airs that get me punished. FoD is great though, he has nowhere to run & camp. Next time you'll get him
Max?
Smash Champion
I use cape a lot in neutral situations. It's really good for catching people off guard when they do "safe" stuff like space bairs through platforms and what not. Bair may be safe, but when spacies have their back to you and are above you on a platform, there actions are telegraphed. Cape messes with people and can create opportunities that don't normally present themselves otherwise.
Faced a Kirby in tourney today. I have never gotten away with pillspam so easily in my life and probably never will again.
Poor Kirby. I kinda secondary him but I'd never play him in tournament.
Edit: also did anyone see HMW's Doc on stream earlier? Saw him consistantly doing upB cancels so now I'm going to try and pick that up. Also he killed a Falcon with the final hit of downB (off the top, not while he was trying to recover), was pretty hype.
Poor Kirby. I kinda secondary him but I'd never play him in tournament.
One of the guides on here said that you should stay away from doing those random/desperate capes (though I still kinda do them anyway, but not often). What situations do you usually use it in?
Edit: also did anyone see HMW's Doc on stream earlier? Saw him consistantly doing upB cancels so now I'm going to try and pick that up. Also he killed a Falcon with the final hit of downB (off the top, not while he was trying to recover), was pretty hype.
Last edited:
SmashMac
Smash Lord
Here are some of my uses for the cape:
1.) SH reverse-cape waveland to edgehog
2.) Reverse cape all of the bombs in the game so it doesn't blow up in your face
3.) Punish Jiggs missed rest
I rarely use the cape as an attack against my opponent but I have seen situations where it paid off. It's kind of like the Up+B cancel: a great mindgame the first time it's used, but it can only be used once a set since after the first time it will be expected.
Max?
Smash Champion
The old guides are super outdated. If you use cape in a telegraphed way you'll get punished hard. I usually do everything by feel. For example, I was playing against Jsex's Sheik in tourney last weekend. He was on the ledge and I guessed he was going to jump up with a ledgehop fair to get back on stage. So I DD by the edge baiting the fair, and retreated SH cape beat his fair and then let me WL in with a dsmash for the KO. Hope that was easy enough to understand, but those kind of moments are more common than you'd expect.
Also side note, I recently started striking/banning BF vs. people who are super comfy there and getting great results. I've found DL to be effective against Sheik so long as you can CG/execute combos perfectly. Lots of space and it's hard for her to corner you. Just my .02
Also side note, I recently started striking/banning BF vs. people who are super comfy there and getting great results. I've found DL to be effective against Sheik so long as you can CG/execute combos perfectly. Lots of space and it's hard for her to corner you. Just my .02
Last edited:
Zonak
Smash Cadet
I remember watching you against Jsex at that one Nebs. That set was so good and so tight in that third game.
Yeah BF isn't my favorite stage but I usually use up my bans on Yoshis. If I have 2 strikes though I'll usually strike Yoshi's and BF
YvngFlameHoe
Smash Ace
Where can I find the doc-falco match up? link it to me
Last edited: